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Who Is Archangel Michael

Who is Michael the Archangel?

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 ---scott on 10/30/14
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"Michael the Archangel" (3)

A scriptural comparison of Jesus Christ and Michael.

1. Both have the term archangel applied to them: (Jude 9, 1 Thess 4:16)

2. Both have authority over angels: (Rev 12:7, 2 Thess 1:7)

3. Both prophesied to defeat Satan: (Rev 12:7, Gen 3:15)

4. Both leading the heavenly armies: (Rev 12:7, Rev 19:11-21)

5. Both said to stand up as kings: (Dan 12:1, Dan 7:14)

6. Unprecedented time of distress when becoming king: (Dan 12:1, Matt 24:21)

7. Righteous in book of life would escape during that time: (Dan 12:1, Matt 24:22)

8. Resurrection would occur during their time: (Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29)

Continued
---scott on 11/9/14


"Michael the Archangel" (4)

Comparison... Cont:

9. Voice people hear would be Jesus': (John 5:28,29)

10. Voice people hear would be archangels: (1 Thess 4:16)

11. Judgment occurs during this time: (Dan 12:2, John 5:28)

12. Knowledge and insight occurs during this time: (Dan 12:3, Matt 13:43)

Is it mere coincidence that Michael becomes King and the resurrection happens? That Jesus says in the future the dead will hear his voice and come out of the grave but the voice the dead hear is an archangels voice?

Why would Christ use an archangels voice (if a lesser being) rather than his own? Is that not like a conquering King arriving with the voice of a Court Steward?
---scott on 11/9/14


"Michael the Archangel" (1)

"Michael" is mentioned five times in the Bible.

"...Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me..." Daniel 10:13, KJV

"...there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael..." Daniel 10:21, KJV

"...Michael [shall] stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people..." Daniel 12:1, KJV

"Yet Michael the archangel, [was] contending with the devil [and] said, "The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 9, KJV

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not..." Rev 12:7-9, KJV
---scott on 11/5/14


"Michael the Archangel" (2)

There's just one reference to an unnamed archangel:

"The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" 1 Thess 4:16, KJV

We know that Michael is:

1. "Michael your Prince" ('your' being plural in Hebrew)

2. He helped an angel stand against the 'prince of Persia'.

3. He will stand for the children of [Daniel's] people.

4. He will 'stand up' just before the greatest 'time of trouble'.

5. He has 'his angels'.

7. He battled against the devil, throwing him and his angels out of heaven.

Continued
---scott on 11/5/14


'I passed my local train station yesterday and noticed 2 JWs...'- Marc (10/28/14 'Finish it here' blog)

'Here I am in Indonesia and... in the market, there were 2 JWs...'- Marc (11/3/14)

Marc is bumping into quite a few JW's lately! Really?

Going by Marc's dishonesty of late, I doubt the credibility of his "I met some JW" tales. Marc tried to pull a fast one on a previous blog saying the P46 (Chester Beatty) MSS was a 1st Century MSS, and that 'kyrios' is applied only to God.

Now Marc wants us to believe he is meeting JW's on a weekly basis who agree with his polytheist dogma? I think not and that the above senario's are a complete Marc-esque fabrication.

Pembohong pembohong, celana di atas api.
---David8318 on 11/4/14




To those of you who want a created savior:

The Israelites who left Egypt wanted a created savior, too. That's why they made the golden calf.

How much good did it do them?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/14


Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
-Samuelbb7 on 11/3/14
Here we have the Son being called "ho Theos" in the Greek and "Elohiym" in the Hebrew (Psa 45:6).
How much clearer can it be?
Many say Jesus is never called God in the Bible.
There it is.
But, it doesn't say that in the NWT
Heb 1:8, But about the Son, he says: God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
"Thy throne, O God is" and God is your throne" are 2 very different things and should be easily recognized by Hebrew and Greek grammar.
Who were the JW translators again?
---micha9344 on 11/4/14


Trav,
Now you write about my 'hallmark of "selective misquoting" ...
---Warwick on 11/3/14

Was posting David. Scripture is the only thing "Pursuing" you. Truth you will always attempt to change, or rail at.
I've caught and outed you on CN, leaving out, "misquoting" your, more/less intelligent hero's.
There is only one GOD. In Romans/Col or all of scripture.
Wasn't silent, on the JW, reply, mod's or internet lost my reply. (Too truthful) Ha. Which was appropriate, having just left hospital. (Had a kidney stone blasted)
Won't recant, you posing as a JW, until I've re-read the past post. (May not happen, i really don't care enough)
You might as well join them.
---Trav on 11/4/14


Scott: You definitely would've done much better to have asked the question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" You might have even been able to philosophically spin that a lot easier than your obtuse stand against what the Bible actually says.
---Leon on 11/4/14


'So what is it part of?'

Warwick... please read Romans chapter 11 not just selectively cutting and pasting a single verse out of the Bible. You bleat and growl over us alegedly misquoting Biblical scholars. You however are misquoting God's word.

Please show me where "creation" is found in Romans chapter 11!?

I've already explained what Romans chapter 11 discusses, but unsurprisingly you are not bothered what Romans 11 discusses. All you are interested in is pushing your polytheist trinity dogma. Any single verse that remotely supports that dogma of yours you will cut and misquote out of context.

Your apostasy for all to see.
---David8318 on 11/4/14




Col 1:16,17 NASB

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

In order for JESUS to create all things He cannot be created.


Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Rev 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/3/14


David: "Marc believes an uncreated being gave a sacrifice to himself or he believes one uncreated being gave a sacrifice to another uncreated being."

A straw man, once again, as I believe in neither. David, you willfully fail to try and understand Orthodoxy.
On the other hand, for Watchtowerites David and Scott, salvation not only POSSIBLY, MAYBE, I-WISH-IT-WOULD come through an angel, a created being, it ONLY comes through their MASTER in Brooklyn: "Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." (Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12)

Well, fancy that.
---marc on 11/3/14


David, Romans 11:36 "For from him and through him and to him are all things", which comes from the Greek 'panta' meaning 'everything as constituting a whole.' You would have us believe creation is not part of 'All things.' So what is it part of?

As God is not man He does not beget, as men do. It denotes the relationship between The Father and The Son, them being-of the same stuff, of the same being as God as Barclay, whom you misquote says! God begetting a second God is a figment of your imagination.

You claimed the Kingdom Interlinear has the word 'other', in Greek, at Colossians 1:16. Again I ask: What is the Greek word translated as 'other'?
---Warwick on 11/3/14


David: "So God has begot another God?",

Here I am in Indonesia and this morning, in the market, there were 2 JWs. I read, in Indonesian of course, John 1 and Colossians 1 to them. I then counted the "Gods" and "Creators" for them i.e. 2 of each! Asking them how many "Gods", they replied only 1. I repeated the 2 passages. "OK," she replies, "there is a big God, Jehovah, and a small god, Jesus, and both created."

David and Scott, as much as you LIE, STALL and DISTRACT, your Indonesian buddies agree with me: You are polytheists.

You, minus any supporting theology, have at least 2 Gods. This makes you the heretic.
---marc on 11/3/14


I know who Ignatius, Ireneus, and Athanasius are.

Who is Matthew Henry?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/3/14


"Same Jesus as Matthew Henry?"- -micha9344

But that's it exactly Micha, making the point, for me, all the more compelling.

I'm sure that most of those that I have cited on the topic are trinitarian. How they work out they're understanding that one person of their three in one God was/is the angel Michael is for them to resolve...if that's possible.

I've posted these citations, (all easily searchable to examine the context), to dispel the notion that this belief is an exceptional anomaly of JWs or SDAs (or even Protestants, as suggested by Cluny). That's just simply not true.

Happy to clear that up for you.
---scott on 11/3/14


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JESUS is:
John 3:18

... the name of the only begotten Son of God.

JESUS is the only Begotten son of GOD.

Issac was the only begotten son of Abraham. Our Salvation has to come from GOD.


Psalms 24:5

He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Isaiah 54:7


Jeremiah 33:16

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.



Hebrews 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/3/14


'You have created a conundrum'- Warwick.

The conundrum is all your making. Romans 11 has nothing to do with creation. Creation is not even mentioned! Your deception is for all to see.

Your trinitarian polytheist bent is clearly apparent. "Anyone begotten of God is God". So God has begot another God? Really!? (Jo.1:14). I know you are a sucker for polytheism but you don't have to flaunt it!

Cluny believes Isaac is eternal because he like Jesus is an 'only begotten son'- Jo.1:14, Heb.11:17. Marc believes an uncreated being gave a sacrifice to another uncreated being and you believe God begets another God!

"When first we practise to deceive what a tangled web we weave."
---David8318 on 11/3/14


'usual double talk'... from Warwick.

Usual misquote after misquote from Warwick.

Warwick falsely asserts the Bible says 'the only begotten of man is man', and 'the only begotten of God is God'. When will Warwick pick up the Bible and read it for once instead of his C & MA pagan papers.

Jesus and Isaac are called 'only begotten sons' (Jo.1:14, Heb.11:17), not as Warwick falsely claims 'only begotten men or God's'. Unless of course Warwick is pushing polytheism again by saying God begat another God

Being called the 'only begotten son doesn't make the son of God Jesus eternal anymore than it does Abraham's son Isaac.

Try again Warwick!
---David8318 on 11/3/14


'This still leaves the situation where both Colossians and Romans say creation...' (Warwick).

Stop right there!

Could everyone now please look up Romans chapter 11 and please see where the word "creation" is found or where "creation" is even remotely discussed in Romans 11.

You will find that the word "creation" is not found, neither is creation discussed.

You will then see how Warwick refrencing Romans 11:36 is a false teacher who by subterfuge and pure deceit, lyingly writes "Romans says creation..." when it clearly does not!

Where in Romans 11 does the word "creation" appear? Answer please!
---David8318 on 11/3/14


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In Revelation 12, Michael and Christ are both mentioned but they are separate beings.

In the Book of Jude also, Michael and Christ are both mentioned but they also are separate beings.
---learner2 on 11/3/14


Trav, your cyber-stalking of me is becoming an unhealthy obsession for you. You falsely claimed I had "boasted" of participating with the JW's. However the boast is yours as I have never participated with them, and consequently you were unable to provide any evidence. Admit your lie.

Now you write about my 'hallmark of
"selective misquoting" misuse/ abuse over the years." Please provide proof of this or admit your error.

Further what error have I made regarding Romans 11:36?

Or will you, as usual, make false claims, then retreat into silence?
---Warwick on 11/3/14


"...for he was with God, and yet the same in substance, for he was God..."
"...to confirm our faith in Christ as the eternal Son of God..."
"And thus the second person in the Trinity is fitly called the Word"
-Matthew Henry
Scott believing in the same Jesus as Matthew Henry?
---micha9344 on 11/3/14


Romans 11 is not discussing 'creation' the way Colossians 1:15-17 does.
Who is Warwick trying to kid!?
Warwick's mis-use of Ro.11:36 is a hallmark of his selective misquoting.
---David8318 on 11/2/14

Who is he trying to kid? Amazingly, his own self.
As you've outed.
The scriptures are plain enough, without adding too. Or gutting.
True enough his hallmark of
"selective misquoting" misuse/abuse over the years is inserting opinion inside scripture. Or no scripture at all. Rarely posting a complete scriptures for witness.
Image of GOD...
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
---Trav on 11/3/14


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MATTHEW HENRY Commentary: On Revelation 12:9:

"The parties-Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers..." Henry's unabridged and concise commentaries.

And...

"There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews.... With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. I), and he is called "the Prince of Israel" (Dan. x. 21)William Alexander, ed., A CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE, 3d ed. Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886, vol. 3, p. 158
---scott on 11/3/14


David, wrong again. Romans 11:36 reads "For from him and through him and to him are all things." "All things" (Gk. Panta-all things-everything) obviously includes creation. This still leaves the situation where both Colossians and Romans say creation was made "through" both parties. If "through" applied to Jesus means He isnt Creator, "through" applied to God also means He is not Creator. You have created a conundrum. However there is no conundrum for the Christian as saying God is Creator, or Jesus is Creator means the same thing.

As Barclay (whom JWs misquote) writes of 11:36 "all things have their being through him,.." Even your 'friends' disagree with you!
---Warwick on 11/3/14


David, just more of the usual double talk. Anyone begotten of man is man. Anyone begotten of God is God. No confusion there.
---Warwick on 11/3/14


Jerry, Jesus Christ is never mention to be Michael the archangel. Not once, not twice. If He is Michael then He is not Jesus Christ our Savior, for no archangel is ever mentioned to be our Savior.
---Luke on 11/3/14


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Jesus Christ is indeed the eternal, uncreated, only begotten Creator God. It was Jesus who spoke the worlds into existence and created the life we see on this planet in six literal days and then rested on the seventh day. It was Jesus who walked with Adam and Eve in Eden. It was Jesus who dined with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob. It was Jesus who led Israel through the wilderness and wrote the Ten Commandments on Sinai. It was Jesus who left the glories of heaven to become a helpless baby human so that we might have a chance at eternal life. It is Jesus who will return one day to raise the dead and take those who love Him to heaven. He is truly Emanuel - God with us.



---jerry6593 on 11/3/14


'A created being cannot be our Savior. For Only GOD can be our Savior'- Samuel.

Do you believe its impossible for a created being to show perfect obedience and faith in God even under pain of death?- Heb.5:8,9.

Salvation of mankind from sin and death is 'through the obedience of one man'- (Jesus Christ) Ro.5:19 NIV. It doesn't say salvation is 'through the obedience of God'.

Jesus 'the man' and 'first born of all creation', showed perfect obedience to the uncreated God, thus providing salvation and 'reconciliation' for all created mankind- Col.1:15,20.
---David8318 on 11/2/14


It could be that certain angelic appearances in the OT were actually Theophanies of the Logos.

But it is useless to discuss such doctrines (what St. Paul called "strong meat") with people who don't even believe the right things about our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory.
---Cluny on 11/2/14


Scott, when you JWs stop misquoting, selectively quoting, perverting Scripture and evading the truth then on that happy day I will stop what you dishonestly call "JW bashing."

Your dishonesty is so common and so devious that I no longer take any notice of any quote you misuse. Do you remember when you JW's quoted the Spiritist Gerber? Maybe you will again? Then to our entertainment you deceitfully misquoted the BiblioSceptic Morenz, cunningly leaving out that which shows you completely misrepresented what he had in fact written.

BTW you have yet to admit I have never said "that Jews do not need to accept Jesus as the Messiah." You have lied and will not admit it.
---Warwick on 11/2/14


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'If neither are Creator, who is?' (Romans 11:36)- Warwick.

Romans 11 is not discussing 'creation' the way Colossians 1:15-17 does. There are 2 different issues discussed at Romans 11 and Colossians 1. Who is Warwick trying to kid!? In the context of Romans 11 the 'all things' is how God provides salvation for "Israel" through His 'wisdom and knowledge'- not creation in general. Warwick's mis-use of Ro.11:36 is a hallmark of his selective misquoting.

'However your own Greek interlinear disagrees with you... not "all other things'- Warwick.

No it doesn't disagree with me at all. My Kingdom Interlinear reads 'all other things' which is how 'panta' can be translated according to context.
---David8318 on 11/2/14


"Created Savior"-

There have been many "saviors" or deliverers (yasha/Hebrew, soter/Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of Jehovah.

At Judges 6:14 Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the savior, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37).

At Judges 3:9 "The sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel..." (ASV)

This "Savior" was Othniel but it was Jehovah who sent or 'raised up' Othniel for the benefit of Israel. Othniel and Gideon were of course "created" Both were agents of God's salvation. See John 3:16.
---scott on 11/2/14


I believe Jesus is a chip off the old block. The Trinity doctrine is imperfect. Not all is equal. The Father is GREATER than the son. The Son did not consider EQUALITY with God something to be grasped. God wanted a son, Jesus is the firstfruit of creation through which all other things are made. Before Abraham was I AM. Matt 24:36 about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, only the Father. 1 Cor 15:27-28 when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." God is greater than THE SON.
---sin5694 on 11/2/14


'The wisdom of this world is FOOLISHNESS to God'- Cluny.

Cluny's "wisdom":

1. Isaac is an 'only begotten son' (Heb.11:17) therefore Isaac is another "God eternal" to add to all the other "Gods eternal".

2. An uncreated being gave himself a sacrifice (Heb.12:9), or...

3. An uncreated being gave another uncreated being a sacrifice (polytheism).

4. Jesus is not Michael the archangel.

Could the wisdom of Cluny's world be foolish even to God?

Glory to Jehovah God!
---David8318 on 11/2/14


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Scott has misrepresented Trinitarian J.N.D. Kelly as the following quote from Kelly show:

"Naturally the Son is fully divine: 'the Father is God, and the Son is God, for whatever is begotten of God is God'. The Spirit, too, although Irenaeus nowhere expressly designates Him God, clearly ranked as divine in his eyes, for He was God's Spirit, ever welling up from His being. Thus we have Irenaeus's vision of the Godhead, the most complete, and also most explicitly Trinitarian, to be met with before Tertullian." Early Christian Doctrines p.107.

He has also failed to tell us that Martin Werner rejects the JW's as polytheists!
---Warwick on 11/2/14


Marc, you are saying that there are certain things impossible for God to do?
---learner2 on 11/2/14


\\ It makes perfect sense why a created being would undo that sin-\\

The wisdom of this world is FOOLISHNESS to God.

Isaiah warns you that God doesn't even THINK the same way you do.

\\I want a created being \\

What you want is not what God does.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/14


"Protestants?" Cluny

"...in the Post-Apostolic period the appearances of angels in the OT narrative...[were] interpreted as appearances of Christ. This identification long remained...as Origen, Justin, Irenaeus, Novatian and the Letter of Hymenaeus as well as other documents abundantly show us." Martin Werner, Formation of Christian Dogma, p. 130

"In a number of passages (from church father Hermas) we read of an angel who is superior...This angel is given the name Michael... Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael." J. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, p. 95
---scott on 11/2/14


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'Yes, it does, because God is eternal'- Cluny.

Well clearly then Jesus cannot be God. Unless of course Cluny believes Isaac is also God eternal!

If by calling Jesus the only begotten makes him "God eternal", it must be that being called only begotten also makes Isaac "God eternal"!

How many eternal Gods does Cluny want! So far Cluny has the eternal God the Father, God the Son, God the holy sprirt and now the eternal God the Isaac. Of course this is ridiculous!

Again, being an only begotten son doesn't make Jesus eternal anymore than it makes Isaac eternal.

Glory to Jehovah God.
---David8318 on 11/2/14


"I'm so glad I'm a Christian and not a Protestant." This is very insulting to all protestant born-again Christians.

There are truly born-again Christians and other people who 'just go to church' in all protestant denominations and it's sad that yet another question has been turned around to infer that some Christians here are not saved. It's about time this ceased.
---Rita_H on 11/2/14


'If a creature could save us we would still be able to use animals'

No because unlike those animal sacrifices under the Law, Christ's sacrifice was a sinless sacrifice and put an end to animal sacrifices- Ro.10:4.

'He (Christ) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.'- Heb.9:12 NIV.

The first created man Adam took us into sin and death. The 'last Adam' (Jesus) will take us out of sin and death- 1Cor.15:45.

Marc either believes an uncreated being gave a sacrifice to himself (which has zero efficacy) or he believes one uncreated being gave a sacrifice to another uncreated being (which is polytheism).
---David8318 on 11/2/14


Learner, a creature can't save us as God has said he is the saviour.
If a creature could save us we would still be able to use animals.
The JWs put faith in the ability of a creature to save. Efficacy = zero.
---marc on 11/2/14


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'Unless you believe in a created savior'- Cluny.

A created being caused mankind to fall into sin and death. It makes perfect sense why a created being would undo that sin- Rom.5:12.

'The first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam (Christ), a life-giving spirit'- 1Cor.15:45.

I want a created being to demonstrate that perfect obedience to God is possible despite severe oposition and ridicule- Rom.5:18,19.

This is where trinitarians make a catastrophic error. They do not have a saviour from creation to undo Adamic sin and death.

Why does believing in a created saviour make me an Arian? Believing the saviour is uncreated is antichrist- 1 John 2:22 & 2 John 7.
---David8318 on 11/2/14


"Why would it not be possible for God to use a created being as a means of salvation?" learner2 on 11/1/14
"Since by man came death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" 1Co 15:21,22>Rom 5:12
In accordance with Father's predestined redemption plan for man, It took a sinless man to redeem man. "So [The] Christ [made of the seed of man] was once offered to bear the sins of many," and "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 9:28
---Josef on 11/2/14


David, Colossians 1:16 reads "all things were created through (Greek dia) him. If 'dia' means Jesus was not Creator we have a serious problem! Why because Romans 11:36 reads "through (Greek dia) him (God)and to him are all things." If neither are Creator, who is?

Colossians 1:15-17-Jesus is Creator of all things, i.e. not a creature. The WTS corrupts Scripture by inserting "other" 4 times, making Jesus Creator only of "all other things", making Him also created. However your own Greek interlinear disagrees with you as it has the Greek 'panta' meaning "all things" not "all other things."

"When first we practise to deceive what a tangled web we weave."
---Warwick on 11/2/14


Jesus is not a created being. But He IS the Captain of the Lord's host - the Leader of the angels - the Archangel Michael. It is His voice alone that can raise the dead (1Thes 4:16) - not any created angel.
---jerry6593 on 11/2/14


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Learner, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. For in the Spirit no one can see God. In the flesh He is human, in the Spirit He is God, that is in His divine nature. He claim to be the Son of God, equal in nature to the Father. If anyone doesn't believe He is God then they are worshipping a false jesus and are lost. He appeared in the Old Testament many times. Scripture is full of proof.
---Luke on 11/2/14


I will take flak from both sides here.

I believe that Michael is one of the hundreds of titles of JESUS.

Yet I also believe in the Trinity and that JESUS is GOD.

A created being cannot be our Savior. For Only GOD can be our Savior.


Tit 1:3

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour,


Isa 45:15

Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

We have transgressed the Law of GOD. Only He can atone for our sins and save us.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 11/2/14


The bible gives us great evidence that Christ is the eternal Son of God.

1 John 5:7 KJV tells us that he is one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

John 20:21, Gal 4:4, 1st John 4:14, John 3:16 all state that God "sent" his Son.

Heb 13:8 tells us that Christ is that same yesterday, to day, and forever. This show not only that his eternal existence but also his immutability.

John 5:18 and 1 John 5:7 tell us that Christ is equal with the Father.
---trey on 11/2/14


I don't believe in a created Savior, but why would it not be possible for God to use a created being as a means of salvation?
---learner2 on 11/1/14


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\\Being the only begotten son doesn't make Jesus eternal anymore than it does Isaac.
---David8318 on 11/1/14\\

Yes, it does, because God is eternal.

Unless you believe in a created savior.

But in that case, you're an Arian and not a Christian.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/1/14


'When we say "Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God,"... We mean His eternal begetting as the Son/Logos before creation'- Cluny.

'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son ('monogenes')'- Heb.11:17 (KJV).

There can be no question that Isaac was 'only begotten' in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to Abraham.

John also uses 'mono-genes' at John 1:18, 'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son ('mono-genes')...hath declared him' (KJV).

Both Jesus and Isaac are only begotten sons of their Fathers. Being the only begotten son doesn't make Jesus eternal anymore than it does Isaac.
---David8318 on 11/1/14


"Are you saying you believe also he Mighty God and Father of the world to come?" Ruben

Yes, of course. Please see the discussion regarding "Theos/God" and its broad application to men, angels and God on the "Finish anything here" thread.

Regarding Christ as the "Father"...ask Warwick.

Warmarc-

Although I know I've been guilty of it myself, instead of highjacking this thread about "Michael", why don't you start a separate JW bashing thread and continue your Christian Zionist ("Hatred driven"*) teeth-gnashing there.

* Dr. Jim West, Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies on the tactics Christian Zionists
---scott on 11/1/14


And we're supposed to be overwhelmed by all these Arian Protestants because.......???

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/1/14


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"Are you saying you believe also he Mighty God and Father of the world to come?" Ruben

Yes, of course. Please see the discussion regarding "Theos/God" and its broad application to men, angels and God on the "Finish anything here" thread.

Regarding Christ as the "Father"...ask Warwick.

Warmarc-

Although I know I've been guilty of it myself, instead of highjacking this thread about "Michael", why don't you start a separate JW bashing thread and continue your Christian Zionist ("Hatred driven"*) teeth-gnashing there.
---scott on 11/1/14


Scott you wrote "Here Warwick puts himself in the camp with Marc who believes that Jews do not need to accept Jesus as the Messiah." This is a lie, as I have never said this. If I did believe such nonsense then why did I write about "messianic Jews"? Or maybe, and quite likely you do not know what "Messianic Jews" means!

Answer please!
---Warwick on 11/1/14


'Where do these chapters explicitly say this?'- Warwick.

Where does the Bible explicitly say Jesus is 'Almighty God' or 'the creator'? Even Colossians 1:16 says 'all things were created through him'. Who created all things through Jesus? Obviously his Father- Jehovah God (Jo.1:3).

Little does Warwick know, you won't find the name "Jesus" applied to the Messiah in Daniel.

What we do find in Daniel is this:

'there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.'- Da.10:21 (KJV).

Who is Daniel's 'prince'?

'from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks'- Da.9:25 (KJV).
---David8318 on 11/1/14


//Who is Michael the Archangel?//

Scott, that is a silly question. It is Michael. He is one of the archangels of God. He is an angel from the angelic realm.
In Scripture when the "Angel of the Lord" is mention, it is Christ on most every passage, in the context. This is Christ before His incarnation.
---Luke on 11/1/14


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"Where do these chapters explicitly say this?" Warwick

It's the verse following the one that mentions a three-in-one Trinity.

Adam Clarke (Methodist) in his multi-volume commentary (not his abridged edition by Ralph Earle), regarding the occurrence of "Michael" in Revelation 12:7-10: "By the personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." New York and Nashville, Abingdon Press, Vol. 6, page 952.

Langes Commentary On The Holy Scriptures: (on Revelation 12:7-10):

"The warlike form of Christ." A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal, and Homiletical, with special references to Ministers and Students, Johann Lange, 1802-1884
---scott on 11/1/14


"Angel of great council"- Isaiah 9:6 LXX:

"A child is born to us, a son is given to us. His power is on his
shoulders. They will call his name "Angel of great counsel, mighty God, prince of peace, father of the world to come"
(Septuagint variant of Codex Aleph, A reading)
---scott on 10/31/14

Are you saying you believe also he Mighty God and Father of the world to come?
---Ruben on 11/1/14


"Who is Michael the Archangel?" An Archangel named Michael.
"One of, the first or chief angels who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel." Dan 12:1
---josef on 10/31/14


GENEVA STUDY BIBLE:

Daniel 12:1

"And at that [a] time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

(a) The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel."
---scott on 10/31/14


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Scott, again you evade context-a text taken out of context is a pretext. As Isaiah is writing of the coming Messiah it is out of context and impossible for The Creator God and sustainer of everything ever created (Colossians 1:15-17) to be, at the same time a mere created being.

In Isaiah 9:6 the Messiah, in Hebrew is 'el gibbowr' Mighty God! This description is used elsewhere e.g. Joshua 22:22-we see 'el gibbowr' compounded with 'yhwh' i.e. 'The Mighty God, Jehovah.' We do not have two Mighty God's, they are both of the same stuff, of the same being as Barclay says.

Further Jesus is unique, one of a kind (John 3:16) while Michael is clearly not unique, see Daniel 10:13, just one of a number.
---Warwick on 10/31/14


Scott, inveterate and opportunistic liar for the Watchtower, has cut and paste inexact quotes from anyone he thinks will support his dishonesty. He's been caught out recently when I quoted the correct and full sentence, not the partial one he tendentiously inserted. WARNING: Go to the original source and see Scott's lies.

BTW, I asked you a question: When did I say Jews should not be evangelised? Which will it be this time, Scott, a lie, a partial/irrelevant quote or an evasion?
---marc on 10/31/14


The problem here is that trinitarians cannot separate Christ from His Father. A separate being.
What does the name "Michael" mean ?
---1stcliff on 10/31/14


Scott, in typical dishonesty (or typically poor JW "scholarship"), omits the all important first few words: "Michael MAY MEAN an angel, BUT I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people. The angel calls Michael the mighty prince. As if he had said, Michael should be the guardian and protector of the elect people" (Calvin, Commentary on Daniel 12:1, Lecture 65).

IMPORTANT NOTE: In Daniel chapters 10 and 12 Michael is NEVER called an angel. Calvin wasn't saying Michael and Jesus were the same person, after all he believed Jesus to be uncreated.

Scott: Pull your pants up.
---marc on 10/31/14


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When dealing with the JW cult remember they have numerous antBiblical beliefs, e.g. Daniel 10 and 12 say Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Where do these chapters explicitly say this? Also despite the physical impossibility of the uncreated Creator also being a creature, He created!

They claim Jesus aka Michael, died upon the cross and rose again but only as an "invisible spirit creature" "Let God Be True" WTS 1952 p.200. Again lies as Jesus says "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." I suppose if you refuse to honour Jesus as God, ignoring what He says is normal.
---Warwick on 10/31/14


And this is not the only thing that Jean Chauvin (to use his real name) and other early Protestants were wrong about.

This is nothing but Arianism, which Christians rejected back in 325.

I'm so glad I'm a Christian and not a Protestant.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/14


John Calvin: (Regarding "Michael" at Daniel 12:1):

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." Commentaries on the book of the Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Dnl." 1930, Vol. 3, page 2048:
---scott on 10/31/14


\\So you guys think michael the arch angel is Jesus Christ?\\

Jehovah's false Witnesses are not the only ones that teach this.

So did SDA, at last at one time. I've seen in in their literature.

When we say "Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God," we are not referring to His Incarnation in the Womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We mean His eternal begetting as the Son/Logos before creation.

I wish I had the Spanish to explain this to you, Elena.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/14


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The Jehovah Witness teach that Michael the Archangel is Jesus, that they are one and the same.
---sin on 10/31/14

Too many scriptural problems for me with the suppositions.
No scriptural witnesses are verifying it for me without adding to or taking away. This always raises a caution flag.
Shira raised a conception problem.
Where there are problems...there should be answers.
Why do they, the JW's need this to be so? Therein may be the answer to this question.
---Trav on 10/31/14


The Jehovah Witness teach that Michael the Archangel is Jesus, that they are one and the same. Certainly, Michael is an angel mentioned within the scripture and he disputed with Satan.
---sin on 10/31/14


I have never heard such bunk in my life. So you guys think michael the arch angel is Jesus Christ? In other words mary didn't become pregnant by the Holy Spirit. So God's word lies??
---shira4368 on 10/31/14


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