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 ---Darlene_1 on 11/13/14
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John 14:14- Warwick (2)

Let's review! Cont.-

11/19/14- Faced with evidence to the contrary, Warwick reiterates the notion that translations agreeing with the NWT are obscure", "old" and "inferior" and that the missing "me" is "for no good reason" and "a deletion."

11/20/14- He ignores the testimony of Jesus' own words on praying to the Father: John 15:16, 16:23, Matt 6:9.

11/22/14- Now back-peddling, all other translations get a pass, (they "delete" in "good faith"). The NWT, alone, has evil motives. A dash of ad hominem insults, the predictable change of subjects and we have the mastery of Warwick apologetics.

Fascinating stuff.
---scott on 11/21/14


Paul speaking:
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul at the end of Acts said:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So Michael_e EXACTLY when did Paul BEGIN to preach a different Gospel? according to you, long before Acts 20 correct. so is Paul a little confused here, or are you?
---kathr4453 on 11/21/14

There's more than one gospel ...
(Rom 16:25) Had it been prophesied it wouldn't be secret.
It's plain who Hebrews is addressed to.
The boC is one body not 12 tribes.
---michael_e on 11/21/14

You present no Prophets backing your theory. The mystery was how redemption would be fulfilled to sinful, and divorced Israel. It is very exact and plain who Hebrews is addressed to, prophets Jeremiah prophecied the New Covenant exactly. It's so specific you or I can't add or take away from it.
Jer_31:31 ...saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb_8:8 ... saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 11/21/14

Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
OK so hao many BODIES of Christ are there?

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Michael_e, Paul would totally disagree with you.
---kathr4453 on 11/21/14

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers, But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God
---kathr4453 on 11/21/14

There's more than one gospel in the Bible, only one pertains to us the boC. Paul's gospel(1 Cor 15:1-4) Believing not only that Christ died for us but that He resurrected.
Peter preaches (Acts 2:38) Repent for killing Jesus (acts 2:36) be baptized receive the HS. and your sins may be blotted out when the time of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
Peter preached what was prophesied since the world began (Acts 3:21)
Paul preached what was kept secret since the word began (Rom 16:25) Had it been prophesied it wouldn't be secret.
It's plain who Hebrews is addressed to. All the Bible is for us but not necessarily all to us (Rom 15:4)
Paul writes to all, no difference. The boC is one body not 12 tribes.
---michael_e on 11/21/14

John 14:14- Warwick (1)

Lets review!

11/18/14- Warwick claims that the ESV is correct and the NWT in the KIT is wrong because "me" has been "deleted."

A list of translations that render the verse exactly as the NWT is provided.

11/18/14- Warwick is made aware of footnotes in his own ESV and NWTRB alerting the reader to conflicting manuscript evidence.

He now knows that the KIT is based on Westcott and Hort (including "me") but the NWT is also based on Nestle-Aland and other sources.

11/19/14- Warwick says I've "trott[ed] out old and obscure translations" but now begins to see that many reputable translations are at odds with his position.

---scott on 11/21/14

"Your argument" Marc

No your "argument" 11/20 was based on the word prototokos. That, my friend is the Strawman here because you fashioned a position that does not reflect the case made by JWs and Col 1:15 and then argued against it.
---scott on 11/21/14

only one (Gospel) for us now.

Peter taught Christ according to prophecy (Acts 3:21-24).

Both taught Jesus fulfilled the prophets.
---michael_e on 11/20/14

First, you say many Gospels, now 1.
But you project two. Gospel of the appointed and directed Apostles, and Gospel of Paul.
You posted scripture that was regarding Prophets and mentioned Prophets.

You will only short yourself by not searching the Prophets testifying or not testifying of your two Gospels.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
---Trav on 11/21/14

You've avoided my argument and typically transformed it to a straw man. Your argument the genitive entails the subject being part of the class (i.e. Jesus is part of creation) begs the question and avoids understanding the genitive case's complexity. This is evasiveness and, pardon the pun, a well-witnessed Witness stratagem.

Was Paul's purpose to make plain Jesus is a creature? As I have, in vain, reiterated, it's all context. The genitive 'creation's firstborn' (there is no Greek word for 'of' here!), when the verses 13-18 are taken into account, cannot mean Jesus is a created being because Paul details functions belonging to God which he applies to Christ e.g. "all things were created BY him". Explain, Scott.
---Marc on 11/21/14

Michael_e, you say Peter teaches they killed Jesus, and Paul teaches the death and resurrection of Jesus. So are you saying the Jews along with Peter believe Jesus is dead and never rose again? Just curious how Peter states in his epistles how we were bought with the precious blood of Christ. So they killed Jesus and Jesus blood purchased THEM with His Blood, but the Body of Christ is Not God's purchased possession also purchased with His Blood? So what you are saying is the BLOOD is only for the Jews and not the Gentiles or the BOC? And in Hebrews 10, to Jews, they are sanctified once and for all through the BODY of Christ, but Gentiles are not. So the BOC has nothing to do with Hebrews 10?...written to JEWS and not the BOC?
---kathr4453 on 11/21/14

Scott, you gave us a list of translations (including the ASV) which do not have 'me' at John 14:14. Interestingly the ASV (for one example) agrees with the NWT here (but for a totally different reason. However it totally contradicts the NWT at Colossians 1:16,17 "or in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things have been created through him, and unto him,and he is before all things, and in him all things consist." Not one "other" to be seen. Your 'friends' have deserted you.

The same goes for the NWT mistranslation of Philippians 2:9.
---Warwick on 11/20/14

"Firstborn" Marc (2)


In every case the "firstborn" had a beginning of existence. In Ex 11:5, the "firstborn of Pharaoh" belonged to, or was of, Pharaoh, the "firstborn of the maidservant" was literally the one born first of the maidservant and the "firstborn of the beast" was a beast.

So the phrase in Col 1:15,"the firstborn of all creation," would, according to Bible usage, be itself a part of creation, belonging to creation, a created being itself, having a beginning of existence.

Following every single example of the simple biblical phrase: Prototokos pases ktiseos, Christ would be included among the created and numbered as the first.
---scott on 11/20/14

Scott, you feign that you do not understand but you do.

From long experience many of us know you and the WTS cannot be trusted. The WTS claims it alone speaks for God, yet the 'god' of the WTS makes mistakes, changes his mind (e.g. as to when Christ returned and as to whether organ transplants are "cannibalism" as it once claimed).

Many translations which delete 'me' at John 14:14 do so in good faith, following older manuscripts which do not include 'me.' The WTS however does not delete 'me' in good faith, (as they even reject their own interlinear), but do so to push a cultic program.

Do the versions you refer to also add 'other' in Colossians 1:16-17 and Philippians 2:9 etc? You know they don't!
---Warwick on 11/20/14

Warwick, In your opinion , is there a bible translation 100% accurate ?
By the way, I was there in 1950 when the 1st NWT of the Christian Greek scriptures (NT) was released.
It was believed that 18 bible scholars put this together... The "Society" failed to say who these "scholars" were...It has been said that there were no accredited bible scholars in this group !
What does the ordinary layman know for sure ???
Questions answers !
---1stcliff on 11/20/14

//So does this mean there are 5 different Gospels?//
only one for us now.
Paul preached the mystery of Christ (Rom 16:25).
Paul preached Christ died for us Rom 58
Peter preached you killed Jesus Acts 2:36
Peter taught Christ according to prophecy (Acts 3:21-24).
Pauls uncircumcision gospel was different than Peters gospel of circumcision (Gal 2:7).
Both taught Jesus as the Christ.
Both taught Jesus fulfilled the prophets.
Both taught salvation by Christ.
Paul first taught the glory of the cross to all men (Gal 6:14).
Paul first taught the formation of a new creature called the BoC neither Jew nor Gentile.
Paul was first to teach free salvation to all based on Christs death and resurrection.

---michael_e on 11/20/14

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Cliff: \\The KJV is today inaccurate as the meaning of words has changed over time and the KJV gives the wrong meaning in many places because of this.
But you know this as this has been discussed at length, many times, on these pages.
---Warwick on 11/20/14

Wow. Cliff, Cliff, Cliff...You dare question? The authority (doctrine police)has spoken. What's wrong with you... are still not indoctrinated yet? Hah. Don't you know by now that one of his opinions is worth 10 scriptures or a complete Bible worth 1,600 "erets" scriptures, 1,541 "yom" scriptures, 272 "covenant" scriptures.
Jer_23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
---Trav on 11/20/14

"Firstborn"- Marc

Jehovah's Witnesses do not base their argument regarding Col. 1:15 on the word "Firstborn" (Prototokos).

Rather, it's based on the phrase: Prototokos pases ktiseos "Firstborn of all creation".

According to Strong's the phrase "the firstborn of" occurs 36 times: Genesis 25:13, Exodus 6:14, 11:5(3), 12:29(3), 13:13, 13:15(3), 22:29, 34:20, Numbers 3:13,40,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, Joshua 17:1, 1 Chronicles 1:29, 2:3,13,25,27,50, 4:4, 5:1, 9:31, Nehemiah 10:36, Job 18:13, Psalms 135:8, Isaiah 14:30 and Colossians 1:15.

In every single case the "firstborn" is one of, or part of, belongs to, the group or person it is said to be of.

---scott on 11/20/14


"Ephraim is My firstborn." (Jeremiah 31:9) However, "Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh" (Gen 41:51). Also "Hosah, of Merari's children, had sons: Shimri the first (for though he was not firstborn, his father made him the first)" (1 Chron. 26:10).

Clearly, firstborn is not always taken literally but is idiomatic. Deuteronomy 21:16 tells us it means rightful heir. So, Paul's stating Christ is God's firstborn, he has all of God's fullness, can forgives sins, is the image of God, directly created the whole universe, means as the Son he's the rightful heir and has authority over all creation. Jesus' being firstborn cannot be understood to mean he was created, as the JWs poorly argue.
---marc on 11/20/14

Cliff, you ask if the NWT is inaccurate? This is you trying to be funny isn't it? Yes, it is inaccurate because it has been perverted to push a cultic view.

The KJV is today inaccurate as the meaning of words has changed over time and the KJV gives the wrong meaning in many places because of this. But you know this as this has been discussed at length, many times, on these pages.
---Warwick on 11/20/14

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Warwick, Based on what you say, does that mean the NWT and KJV are both inaccurate ?
---1stcliff on 11/20/14

"I would consider Nestle-Aland more of a translation rather than a manuscript." Micha9344

Yes, Nestle-Aland is a 'Critical Text' of the Greek New Testament and not a manuscript. I originally had a long list of manuscripts used by the NWT before listing NA then deleted them to fit the space.

Thanks for the correction!
---scott on 11/20/14

"Many know far more about Interlinears than me, but not you."- Warwick

Then please educate me.

Are you really casually dismissing all of the translations that have chosen to leave out "me" (based on solid manuscript evidence) because they are "old" and "linguistically obscure"?


The ASV, Amplified Bible, The Revised Standard Version (1946 & 1971), KJV, The Jerusalem Bible, Oxford Annotated, Williams NT, Geneva, The Literal Translation of the Bible, Sovereign Grace Interlinear, Living Gospels, The Voice, New Life NT, Int. Inductive Study NT, The Modern Language Bible, Living Bible, Emphatic Diaglott, etc...

Is that really your argument?
---scott on 11/20/14

I would consider Nestle-Aland more of a translation rather than a manuscript.
But considering the Textus Recteptus, John 14:14 does not have "me" in it.
It is the GNT that does.
But, it is usually the GNT to which the JW's refer.
I guess many manuscripts help one be able to pick and choose better translations to fit their doctrine.
What revision is the Nestle-Aland GNT on now? 28?
Is that why it is referred to as the "morphological" text?
---micha9344 on 11/20/14

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"The KIT/John 14:14." Warwick (2)

The KIT is based on Westcott and Hort but the NWT (NT) is also based on a long list of manuscripts including Nestle-Aland, Latin Vulgate, Textus Receptus, Papyri, etc., etc. See the intro to the NWT Reference Bible.

The difference between John 14:14 in the KIT and NWT reflect the difference between Westcott and Hort and other manuscript evidence that challenge the addition of "me".

Translations that include "me" are in conflict with Jesus' own words at John 15:16: "whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." See John 16:23.

Did Jesus not teach his disciples to pray, "Our FATHER in heaven..." ?Matthew 6:9
---scott on 11/20/14

Cliff, the reason Strong's Concordance does not include 'me' is that it was produced in 1890 (124 years ago)and covers only the KJV which was first produced in the early 1600's and was based upon older inferior texts.
---Warwick on 11/20/14

Warwick, Strange that Strong's concordance does not list Jn.14.14 as containing "me" !
---1stcliff on 11/19/14

Scott, many know far more about Interlinears than me, but not you. The JW leaders who visited me didn't have a Kingdom Interlinear and had never read one! When I got them off their pre-prepared JW script they became lost and confused, and scarpered.

My Tyndale quote shows how old and obscure it is. The KJV is also very old and linguistically obscure. The point remains regarding your 'obscures' and the old inferior texts from which they were translated. You tried a con with the ESV however it backfired.

The main point still stands, the NWT translators have chosen, for no good reason, to delete the 'me' of John 14:14, rejecting their own KIT. Why because they cannot have Jesus saying pray to me, which makes Him God!
---Warwick on 11/19/14

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Yes, Jesus is the Word of God (Rev. 19:13). He spoke the words that His Father gave Him to speak (John 14:23-24). The words have not changed, God does not change and Jesus never taught that God changed His mind about anything.

The 11 disciples of Jesus were to live in the world without being a part of it (John 17:14-230). Does that mean God loves the world and all those who are evil within it? God loves those who love Him, obey Him and follow His Son. What is the love that Jesus taught? This is that love...1st John 3:1-11. Don't be fooled by the counterfeit love taught by someone else.
---barb on 11/19/14

Scott will scour and use any resource AS LONG AS IT AGREES WITH HIS WATCHTOWERITE THEOLOGY. This only demonstrates his lack of objectivity and his complete ignorance of proper academic honesty. As Popper cautioned, only looking for confirming data is not proper science. Manic cutting-and-pasting is not research nor an argument.

Scott, you've got a long way to go before anyone can take you seriously. David may be in awe of you but he's hardly credible.
---marc on 11/19/14

Jesus's gospel and that of God are the same and Jesus taught love and love is the basis for all that was preached. It was God's love that gave us Christ, the sacrificial Lamb that was slain for our sins,Jesus. In 1 Corinthians we have a list of how love acts. We are told to love God with our heart,mind,strength,soul,and every bit of us and our neighbor as our self. There are many facets to our walk with Christ but they all are to be dictated by Agape love of God and man.Everything we do in our daily lives and ministries is to be wrapped in that love. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/19/14

"The KIT/John 14:14." Warwick (3)

We can add this accusation to Warwick's "Fail" file as it's clear he has no understanding of how interlinears work let alone the manuscript evidence that all translators have used to render John 14:14.

Here are a few more "rather old and obscure" translations that agree with the NWT and disagree with him:

The KJV, ASV, Montgomery, Revised Standard 1946 & 1971, Jerusalem Bible, Norlie, The Revised English Bible 1989, The Complete Jewish Bible 1998, The New Covenant-Willis Barnstone, 2002, The Living Bible, Emphatic Diaglott, The New English Bible, Modern Language Bible (Berkeley), Twentieth Century New Testament, the Unvarnished New Testament...
---scott on 11/19/14

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Scott, the point you attempt to evade by trotting out some rather old and obscure translations is that the JW New World Translation (NWT) does not even agree with your own JW Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) at John 14:14, and numerous other places.

RSB? Couldnt find it!
Actually Tyndale reads "Yf ye shall axe eny thige in my name I will do it." I dont know why but something tells me this is based on one of the older manuscripts!

* I am indeed aware that some older manuscripts omit 'me.' However that the ESV puts this only as a footnote shows they prefer the inclusion of 'me.' Me too!
---Warwick on 11/19/14

Oh dear, I found more Gospels, adding to the list,: THE GOSPEL, then we have the Gospel of Christ. So I found 7 Gospels so far.

Seeing some love overly dividing the word of God, why stop here?

I see Paul in 2 Corinthians preaching , 1) THE GOSPEL, 2) the Gospel of God, 3) the Gospel of Christ.

Oh but look, I also see Peter preaching these same Gospels. No wonder their was divisions and factions back then AND NOW.

I'm still looking, and sure will find even more.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/14

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Ok Michael_e, Paul says in Romans he was separated to preach the Gospel of God. And we see Peter also preaching the Gospel of God ..correct? But where in all of Romans does Paul say God took away from him the Gospel of God and gave him ANOTHER GOSPEL to preach. Seems as the book of Romans addresses the mystery in chapter 16.

OH OH there is another...the Gospel of GRACE Paul also preached.

Oh I have such a headache....but I'm still looking.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/14

"The KIT/John 14:14." Warwick (1)

1. If all of the translations that I posted render John 14:14 exactly as the NWT, are Warwick's underoos in a twist over those translations as well? No...why not?

2. Is he unaware that the ESV (the translation he uses as an example) has a footnote for John 14:14 that says: "Some manuscripts omit me." ?

3. Has he not taken 2 seconds to see that the NWT Reference Bible also has a footnote for John 14:14 that says:

"p66, [aleph], BWVgSy, "ask me"", indicating that the manuscript evidence varies on this verse.

The KIT is based on Westcott and Hort (which includes "me") but it also is based on...

---scott on 11/18/14

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Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Then there is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And the Gospel according to the Mystery...

So does this mean there are 5 different Gospels?

So Michael_e, please outline each and every listed gospel here, and their differences.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/14

Intelligent students of Scripture hear facts before making interpretations
No intelligent student of the Scriptures believes, or teaches, that there is only one gospel in the Scriptures.
---michael_e on 11/1/14

You're doing a lot of research but, here are a few more facts of hundreds verifying.
There is only one "truth", gospel.
First, who is it too?
Mat_10:6 But go rather to ...
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto ...
Why is it needed?
Isa 54:4-7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Jer 31:33/Heb 8:8
Directions: Isa 51:1-7
---Trav on 11/18/14

My visitors were "gob-smacked" (as the English say) when I revealed how ...
---Warwick on 11/18/14

Much less than Israels sheep scripture has "gob-slapped" you. The most arrogant little self elected preacher have ever come across. You drive away rather than appeal. Disgusting, bred of low self esteem.

Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 11/18/14

Cluny thank you for sharing that good news with me when I read it I got Jesus presence chills all over and tears came to my eyes. I am so touched to hear that and so very blessed to hear God is till touching you like that. I have seen many answers to prayers in my life but I never stop being blessed by them,God is so lovingly awesome. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/18/14

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Re your "explanation" of 'fullness', you left out 90% of my argument. No surprise there.

It's not a linguistically sound methodology to just compare the same 2 words free of their context, as you do. It's always context, a point you serially fail to follow.

Paul states Christ forgives sins, is the image of God, the rightful heir and authority of all creation, directly created the whole universe, and the creation is for him. These are functions of God, the uncreated, not a creature. It's on account of these that all of God is in Jesus.

Now how can ALL of God, based on these functional attributes, be in a finite being unless he is God? Alternatively, what uniquely is of God, isn't unique to God?
---Marc on 11/18/14

Marc, when I blogged about the ease with which I handled my recent JW visitors Scott claimed I was boasting. Not so, I owe my growing understanding of the falsity of JW theology to Scott and David. For years they have fired off their best weapons forcing me into increasing research so as to better understand and contradict their false theology. It would be churlish of me not to thank them. So thank you boys!

My visitors were "gob-smacked" (as the English say) when I revealed how their NWT does not follow their own Kingdom Interlinear e.g. at Colossians 1:16,17 and John 14:14, and I would not have known this if it hadn't been for Scott and David. The visitors say they will return with answers! I look forward to that.
---Warwick on 11/18/14

Warwick, believe it or not, it remains an allegory.
---learner2 on 11/15/14

Genesis 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again, and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Learner2, if Adam is an allegory, then God is also an allegory.

Nuts to that!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/14

"A finite temporal creature containing ALL of God?" Marc

If this is a reference to Col. 2:9 then keep in mind that "the fullness" of someone can mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. Christians have this "fullness" at Eph 3:19.

The New International Dictionary of NT Theology says:

"Just as a person [a finite, temporal creature] can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734,

Likewise at Eph. 1:22, 23 - "the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 11/18/14

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"Let us go to your Kingdom Interlinear"- Warwick

Let us also go to the:

Literal Translation of the Bible - "ask anything in my name..."

Amplified Bible - "whatever you shall ask in my name..."

RSB - "ask anything in my name..."

Tyndale's NT- "ask any thing in my name..."

Oxford Annotated - "ask anything in my name..."

Williams NT- "anything you ask for as bearers of my name..."

1560 Geneva NT/Pilgrim's - "ask anything in my name..."

The Book/New Living - "ask anything in my name..."

Also - Sovereign Grace Interlinear, Living Gospels, The Voice, New Life NT, Int. Inductive Study NT
---scott on 11/18/14

\\ I'll be praying for you too,I'm still praying for the problem with the kidneys. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/17/14\\

In that case I've got good news for you!

I saw my nephrologist last week, and my kidney function is now 52%--the highest it's been in years!

Miracle in progress!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/18/14

Trav, ...I have a challenge. Show me where and which of my beliefs are not directly from Scripture?
---Warwick on 11/17/14

First of all as a hireling or sheep-skin wearer you and others already know. Fenced you with scripture for years. You avoid, change subject or go walk about regarding Israels scriptures.
Being told to not to give what is holy to certain men, with you I won't. A challenge in a public forum. Is why you cannot understand certain conversations. You do not search, ask Christ or listen. You rend daily. A tell.
Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
---Trav on 11/18/14

Darlene_1: May the good Lord comfort and strengthen you & your husband on all sides in Jesus' mighty name.
---Adetunji on 11/18/14

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Scott, let us go to your Kingdom Interlinear John 14:14 Jesus says "If ever you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do" i.e. pray to me in my name and I will answer!

The ESV (and others) accurately follow the JW Kingdom Interlinear rendering this "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." Like wise Jesus here says-pray to me in my name and I will answer.

When this verse emerges from the WTS mistranslator it reads: "If you ask anything in my name I will do it", with the first me deleted. They are forced into this mistranslation because of their insistence that Jesus is not God because they cannot have a non-God saying pray to me!
---Warwick on 11/18/14

Scott and David,

According to the NW Translation, Jesus brought us forgiveness of sins, even forgiving our sins, is the exact image of God, the rightful heir and authority of all creation, directly created the whole universe including the things able to be seen and those which cannot be, that those things created are created for him, and, most importantly, all of God is in Jesus.

Here we have the Watchtower theology: an angel, a creature, has ALL the above, including ALL of God in him. How's this possible, a finite temporal creature containing ALL of God? I've never had a Watchtowerite explain this.
---Marc on 11/17/14

Cluny,that's a terrible combination so sorry to hear that. My son has Gout so I know how bad it gets. My husband doesn't have a name only initials F.N. thank you for praying for him,my heart breaks when I see him come in home so tired and then go to another town to check on his 86 year old brother and getting home at 9 o'clock. I don't mind him going,I'm glad he cares so much but its about all of us and not about himself. No I haven't been checked for Fibro,Arthritis runs in one side of my family so I thought it could be that I have in every joint,they are sore,the knee was determined by a doctor. Truthfully I haven't even wanted to think it could be Fibro. I'll be praying for you too,I'm still praying for the problem with the kidneys. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/17/14

O heavenlyFather, I'm so glad to hear fr Darlene1, be thinking bout you, family.God we need a blessing o'er her! blessing,healing all sickness pray make a way,move I beg in the way prepare for financial out pouring, we reap cuz we have sowed, our sister has given alot on Cnt, she been there when we did not know a thing, the love of God came we got healed we got help, ask do the same for my sister, her husband, family. ..I go put Shira4368 in this prayer.She is my good friend took me under her wing that the kind of God love show to everyone ...Special blessings on here I pray in jesus name. Amen.
---Elena_9555 on 11/17/14

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Trav, you keep moaning about my doctrines of men and of denomination, so I have a challenge. Show me where and which of my beliefs are not directly from Scripture?
---Warwick on 11/17/14

I know arthritis in the knee hurts. I have both this and gout.

Have you been checked for fibromyalgia? This could be the underlying complaint.

Please give us your husband's first name so we can pray for him.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/14

Please pray for me,I have Arthritis in my right knee all the way down to my shin and it makes it hard to walk due to pain and weakness. I also still have the torn Rotator Cuff which causes lots of soreness and pain in my shoulder and arm. I am facing going through Mom's things at her house to get what she can wear and packing up the rest,she's in a nursing home and I'm an only child. On top of that the floor covering business has slowed to nothing and our SS Checks won't pay the bills,my husband is still working at 81 with Congestive heart failure,he needs prayer too. Thank you. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/17/14

Warwick, it seems odd to me that you would think that people who disagree with your particular interpretation of scripture are rejecting God's word. ... arrogant on your part.
---learner2 on 11/16/14

Allegorical? Gen 4:2 ... Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Cain jealous killed the keeper of sheep.
Your Post name Learner, should precede all our post names. (Some couldn't handle it, you've seen)
Men's dead doctrines or denominational cemetary's are a good place to stop learning, or stop you from presenting your sheep instead of their tofu. Allegory here?
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luke 12:48...
---Trav on 11/17/14

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I'm wrong about early Christian (non)belief in Zionism. (David, I'm on the ground: you can kick me now!) So what's your REAL point here? That your Brooklyn Master always rules?!

Unlike you, you Watchtower person you, I'm not always right. That, I guess, comes from not being a part of an organisation that believes they, and they alone, are God's sole representative.

As I've watched you over these last few years I am glad to be wrong occasionally. It brings me back to being human.

Now Scott, how can a mere creature, Jesus the Archangel Michael, ACTUALLY have all of God in him but not be God? How can a creature create the whole universe but not be the creator?

Still waiting for an answer after many years.
---Marc on 11/16/14

Learner, Scripture interprets Scripture. And anything which contradicts Scripture is not an interpretation of Scripture but an attempt to force a nonScriptural meaning upon Scripture.

That God loves us is Scriptural but none the less He will judge us and find us wanting if we repudiate His word, as you have done. You must not have read the judgements God pronounced upon Israel whom He loved, but who turned away from Him.

Arrogance is an empty word flung about by those who have had their error pointed out.
---Warwick on 11/16/14

Warwick, it seems odd to me that you would think that people who disagree with your particular interpretation of scripture are rejecting God's word. It is also rather arrogant on your part. So I will stick to my believe that God loves me, and that he loves you too. There is nothing that you or I can do to gain, maintain, or lose God's love for us.
---learner2 on 11/16/14


Re Colossians 1:15 and the word 'over' in 'the firstborn over creation', I'll tell you where it is if you first tell me where I can locate the preposition 'of' in that passage in the Greek.
---marc on 11/16/14

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Learner you claim God loves you while at the same time you choose to reject His word!

'And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honour me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men" Isaiah 29:13

From Jesus "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me," Matthew 15:8.

That you have been unable to give any Biblical support for your view makes Colossians 2:8 relevant to your situation "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."
---Warwick on 11/16/14

Warwick, it does not bother me at all to appear foolish. God loves me and that is all that matters.
---learner2 on 11/16/14

Elena I'm sorry to hear you are having that problem,I will certainly pray for you. Mine was high a few years ago but I am blessed to not have plaque build up in my arteries. I had one tiny spot that the doctor said wouldn't cause me any problems. I got those from Mama she is 96 and the same way although her's read high too. Knowing that about myself I refused the medicine but most who read high need it. My daughter is doing well but being persecuted by her boss at her job. They don't teach her a needed process and when she doesn't know it the boss swears she was taught but my daughter writes down everything they teach her and it wasn't in there. Pray she gets another job she believes in God and prayer.God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/16/14

learner, your studied evasion shows you have only decreed Adam and Eve to be allegory. But you know they are not, as if you did believe so for any good reason, you would spell it out rather than appear foolish as you now do.
---Warwick on 11/15/14

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Hello, Darlene1, Good see you, been wondering how your daughter, all you family been doctor sent me a letter, I was surprised to find my cholesterol level too,far high and I got to go to another doctor,I did not notice a thing matter a fact I felt better than a long time!! Pray for the Lord to supernatural bring my levels, down because I really would appreciate it! O my soul, I beg you Jesus! Love of Jesus!
---Elena_9555 on 11/16/14

Warwick, believe it or not, it remains an allegory.
---learner2 on 11/15/14

Learner, as Scripture does not support your contention it appears you have decided (despite the lack of any evidence) that Adam and Eve are allegories. Not an impressive argument. In fact it is no argument at all.

Jude 1:14 "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied,..." The seventh from an allegory? Maybe you believe Enoch is also an allegory, and while we are at it maybe Jesus is as well? Why stop with Adam?

"The man called his wifes name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.." Do you say the mother of all living is just an allegory?
---Warwick on 11/15/14

Warwick, because it is an allegory.
---learner2 on 11/15/14

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Learner, you wrote "Keep in mind, the Adam and Eve story is an allegory." Then when I asked where the NT says this you say it doesn't! So what caused you to say it is an allegory?
---Warwick on 11/15/14

Warwick, it doesn't.
---learner2 on 11/14/14

Learner, can you please show me a New Testament reference which treats Adam and Eve as allegory?
---Warwick on 11/13/14

Please pray for our Great grand daughter. She is two years old and has Strip Throat,she and her grandmother,our daughter didn't get much sleep last night,she needs healing and they both need sleep. Our son of our hearts(not blood kin) is in the VA Nursing Home because he is a diabetic and his legs have swollen so badly it has made sores on his legs,really in a bad way,he is in his 50s. Thank you. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/13/14

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Serving Thanksgiving dinner at church that day. Yummmm. Yummmm.
---KarenD on 11/13/14

I wish you lived near us we would have been delighted to have you take Thanksgiving with our bunch but its great you have beautiful memories and a Community get together. May you have a wonderful day. Learner 2 that goes for you too,have a great day with your family God Bless and keep you both and your families and ours as they travel to and from the get together.
---Darlene_1 on 11/13/14

Our children and grandchildren live in other states, and we have taken care that they not feel a "family obligation" to drive miles of weather covered roads, that we will remember all the great times we had in the past, a great "count your blessings" day. And we are so thankful for Mobile Meals and towns that get together as a community at a big dinner. So thankful just to have LIVED and LOVED!
---Geraldine on 11/13/14

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