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Christian Without Church

If denominational "churches" never existed, would you still be a christian? How would you become a christian if denominational "churches" did not exist?

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 ---Steveng on 11/25/14
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Cluny, exactly right. So it can be ignored.
---learner2 on 12/3/14


Oops I misused what you said about Latreia Cluny. My mistake.

But the point is still true. We are not to worship even if it is considered a lessor worship anyone or thing but GOD.

Now on teaching by men. Yes we are to learn from the wise. But the Wise teach from Scripture and show how it is true from scripture.

Many in the days of JESUS thought the church leaders were the wise and so when they rejected JESUS as the Sadducees and many Pharisees did then of course they had to reject JESUS also. But the leaders in Berea checked what was true from Scripture and so were truly wise. Acts 17

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/3/14


Isaiah 66:23

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

This is one of many places Sabbath is associated with worship.

LATREIA is used to mean a lessor form of worship. But it is a synonym for worship. So people are still paying homage to something other then GOD.

The people this worship is given to are no longer alive on this earth. So in other words they are dead people.

If I am not mistaken they are also prayed to and asked for favors. Let me know If I am incorrect.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/3/14


\\The Ten Commandments also command Sabbath keeping.
---learner2 on 12/2/14\\

Curiously enough, the Sabbath commandment has NOTHING about worship.

It's about a rest from labor that is extended to one's slaves and even farm animals.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/3/14


The Ten Commandments also command Sabbath keeping.
---learner2 on 12/2/14




Orthodox and the RCC claim they set the New Testament.
... both teach doctrines based on tradition that is opposed to scripture.
Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, ...
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,...

By this standard Icons are idols.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/2/14

Noted the icon thing this morning investigating these cultic groups.
2Co_6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God, as God hath said, I will dwell in them, walk in them, I will be their God, they shall be my people.
1Jn_5:21 Little ...
---Trav on 12/2/14


\\By this standard Icons are idols.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/2/14\\

But this is not so, as icons are not worshipped with the LATREIA that belongs to God alone.

And as I said elsewhere to your mentioning this, God commanded images to be made for the Tabernacle and Temple.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/14


Samuelbb7, thanks for those good points about Orthodoxy and RCC.

Mark Eaton.
We agree that Christ died to set us free from sin. I'm not sure if you were trying to make an alternative point or not.

Cluny.
Thanks for your many examples of your prowess at evasiveness. Warwick was correct about you. I found your "mere words cannot explain" dodge the most amusing considering that God calls on us to preach the gospel. Cluny, in spite of all your evasiveness you gave us much insight into Orthodoxy's priorities and much reason to avoid it like the plague. Thanks again :)
---Haz27 on 12/2/14


Orthodox and the RCC claim they set the New Testament.

They are right and wrong.

They were one church when the council with the help of scholars and the Early Church fathers set the Canon in the New Testament based on that it must come from the time of the Apostles and agree with scripture.

But today both teach doctrines based on tradition that is opposed to scripture.


Exodus 20:4-6

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,...

By this standard Icons are idols.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/2/14


I've never heard anyone preach the gospel on this site.
---learner2 on 12/1/14

So here, you are seeking good news.
Gospel means "good news". What do you consider good news?
Who was...despairing in the wait...for "good news" that was prophecied?
Find this and we see and understand "gospel".
Perhaps it applies to you. Or at min, will sweep the cobwebbed walls of confused faulty doctrine and dogma's away from truth. "Good news", truth confirmed is subject peace for life, every minute, every hour, every day.
Jer_33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
---Trav on 12/2/14




I thought this site was for discussions but it has at times been a forum for arguing. Certain ones seem to know everything while others instigate discord. Nothing wrong with a good debate as long as it's kept civil.
---shira4358 on 12/2/14


Most here would agree that you're a good example of why Orthodoxy should be avoided like the plague.
---Haz27 on 12/1/14

I do not think so.

Perhaps we should discuss a subject very different in orthodoxy, atonement.

I would guess that nearly everyone on this site believes in the "Satisfaction theory" yet Orthodoxy and myself believe in the "Christus Victor" or "Ransom theory". Let me explain why.

I do not believe The Father is a harsh taskmaster who needs his justice satisfied by the death of His own Son.

I believe Jesus came to free us from sin, the disease of sin and He had to die to make it possible for us.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/2/14


\\I've never heard anyone preach the gospel on this site. People mostly defend their own perceived righteousness.
---learner2 on 12/1/14
\\

Where did you get the idea that this site is about preaching the gospel?

There is more to being a Christian than merely preaching--or trying to be a hit man for Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/14


I've never heard anyone preach the gospel on this site. People mostly defend their own perceived righteousness.
---learner2 on 12/1/14


\\The fact that scripture calls upon us to PREACH the gospel seems to elude you.\\

What is the point of preaching to people who think they know it all, Haz?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/1/14


Cluny. To use your own line of argument, "you don't have a clue....you're just popping off" to avoid telling us this alleged superior Orthodox gospel that is so complicated that mere words cannot explain . The fact that scripture calls upon us to PREACH the gospel seems to elude you.

Regarding the error of Orthodoxy
"I've told you where you can find the answer......you won't make a few mouseclicks and keystrokes to find" the information on the web.

It's interesting to note your incessant fanaticism in boasting about the superiority of Orthodoxy, YET YOU REFUSE TO PREACH THE GOSPEL. Most here would agree that you're a good example of why Orthodoxy should be avoided like the plague.
---Haz27 on 12/1/14


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Cluny, once again you are evasive. Such evasiveness is akin to lying. What is the dark secret you work to hide?
---Warwick on 12/1/14


\\So first point as the Iconoclasts pointed out Icons are forbidden by the Commandment against idols. \\

But icons are not idols.

Next, God commanded images to be made for the Tabernacle and later the Temple.

\\No man was in charge of doctrine. \\

But this is not what the Torah itself says.

It does not say, "Read this for yourself to find out what to do," but "Follow these precepts [or similar words] AS TAUGHT BY THE WISE."

In other words, the actual interpretation and application was left to men.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/1/14


Cluny all the Hebrew people are often referred to as Jews.
Their religion today is called Judaism.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/1/14

Samuel, you do know more than Cluny on this subject but, have a common taught error going here.
Hebrews were a people. Consisting of 13 sons names. Judah is one of these and never represents all the others as a common name.
Judah...is Judaism. Just as Judas...was one of Twelve Apostles.
---Trav on 12/1/14


\\The Supremacy of the Written Torah and Tanakh ( our Old Testament) was taught. Traditions had to be in accordance with and under the written word. No man was in charge of doctrine.\\

Are you saying that the Orthodox Church added the NT to the Bible?

I've never denied it. Of COURSE we did.

You don't think the SDA decided what should be in it, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/1/14


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Cluny all the Hebrew people are often referred to as Jews. Their religion today is called Judaism.

In the days of JESUS the Hebrew religion, if you prefer that, centered around the Temple.

When the Hebrew people followed JESUS they at first did not change anything about their teaching except that the Messiah had come.

Which is why the discussion in the New Testament on Circumcision.

So first point as the Iconoclasts pointed out Icons are forbidden by the Commandment against idols.

The Supremacy of the Written Torah and Tanakh ( our Old Testament) was taught. Traditions had to be in accordance with and under the written word. No man was in charge of doctrine.

This is a start. Agape

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/1/14


\\It's "way too involved" here on the limited post blogs to go through all the added traditions/teachings Orthodoxy has included beyond God's word.
---Haz27 on 12/1/\\

IOW, Haz, you don't have a clue about what you claim Orthodoxy added.

You're just popping off.

In any case, the question was asked to Samuel, not you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/1/14


Cluny.
Your consistent reluctance to tell us about your alleged superior Orthodox gospel, says a lot.
---Haz27 on 11/30/14

Cluny cannot give a "good news, Gospel" account because he does not know it, as evident. Who would not share what he so proudly boasted having the best of.
He is learning here as he goes...although more slowly than most.

Pro_25:25 As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.
Luk_6:20 he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Mat_11:5 ... and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Zec_11:7 I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. I took unto me two staves,...
---Trav on 12/1/14


"way too involved" as you suggested on behalf of Cluny.
---Haz27 on 11/30/14

we have 125.

i am not speaking on half of anyone. i just simply believe that one has the freedom to be elusive as Christ was. There are different reason for elusiveness...some good, some bad. but, if you keep on challenging someone find specific things to query ... not uneducated things that you are just reiterating. start with the oca.
---aka on 12/1/14


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Mere words will not fully explain.
This applies to you as well, Haz.
---Cluny on 12/1/14

In plain english, "mass", R.C. equivalent.
Online: According to Eastern tradition and belief, the Liturgy's roots go back to Jewish worship and adaptation of Jewish worship...
It's easy to understand why protestants protested. You've taken the freedom in Christ and modified it in controlled, rituals, ritual dress, ritual recitations.
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, love greetings in the markets, the highest seats in the synagogues, the chief rooms at feasts,
Luk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
---Trav on 12/1/14


\\This refusal to answer points to the fact that you do not want your true beliefs to be known.
---Warwick on 12/1/14
\\

But I've told you where you can find the answer.

Lrx orandi, lex credendi--as we pray, so we believe.

Mere words will not fully explain. As Jesus said to one questioner, "Come and see."

And if you won't make a few mouseclicks and keystrokes to find the Divine Liturgy, you surely will not discommode yourself to go on Sunday morning to an Antiochian or OCA church. I mention them as being most likely to use English.

This applies to you as well, Haz.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/1/14


But the church at that time was very Jewish.
The Apostles established a Messianic church.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/30/14

The Church was never "jewish", and still is not to this day. Judeans would have nothing to do with Christianity for the most part. Paul was not jewish/Judean. He was of Benjamin. Formerly worshipping as the judeans. Neither were any of the Apostles except Judas. He was representative of Judah's stand.
---Trav on 12/1/14


Thanks Samuelbb7 for your post on early Christian history. I agree that both Orthodox and RCC added traditions and new teachings beyond what the NT offered.I see Orthodoxy and RCC as worldly breakaways from the original church.

Cluny. Warwick rightly points out your evasiveness.
Your consistent reluctance to tell us about your alleged superior Orthodox gospel, says a lot.

For the rest of us here who question your reluctance to share on the gospel, we, like Paul, are"not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes", Rom 1:16
---Haz27 on 11/30/14


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Cluny, evasive as always, refusing to answer pertinent questions. This refusal to answer points to the fact that you do not want your true beliefs to be known.
---Warwick on 12/1/14


//be specific//---Cluny.

Cluny. To use your own line of argument, I suggest you look it up on the internet to get the specifics, as there's plenty there to be found.

It's "way too involved" here on the limited post blogs to go through all the added traditions/teachings Orthodoxy has included beyond God's word.
---Haz27 on 12/1/14


\\Tell me about sin, will you?
---marc on 11/30/14**

Why should I? Your own heart should tell you all you need to know.\\

Let me explain this, which sounded brusquer than I intended.

The Psalmist said, "My heart shows me the wickedness of the ungodly."

Most of us have an inwards idea of what is right or wrong.

To others here, Sola scriptura is not a game Orthodoxy plays by, though it's the only thing Protestantism has to stand upon.

**Because both added traditions and new teachings to take the place of the writings of the New Testament.**

Please be specific, Samuel.

Haz, "simplicity" doesn't mean "simple minded."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/30/14


aka. If It's "conviction" that Cluny has about Orthodoxy, then he should have no hesitation to show from scriptures his understanding of the gospel.
The simplicity that is in Christ (2Cor 11:3) does not require one to tell others to go search for a liturgy on the web. The gospel is not "way too involved" as you suggested on behalf of Cluny.
---Haz27 on 11/30/14


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In the time of the Apostles there was no Orthodox or Roman Catholic church. Both claim to be the Apostolic church from them. But the church at that time was very Jewish.

The Apostles established a Messianic church. Which neither the Orthodox or RCC fit.

Why? Because both added traditions and new teachings to take the place of the writings of the New Testament. All you need to do is read Church History and the New Testament.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/30/14


\\Cluny, Why wouldn't Paul mention the Orthodox church along with the churches of Asia Minor ?
Which of those seven churches gave birth to the Orthodox ?\\

It was St. John who mentioned the 7 churches of Asia Minor, not St. Paul.

And they were ALL flourishing Orthodox Churches until a population exchange ordered by the League of Nations, where all the Greek Orthodox in Asia Minor had to leave Turkey.

Did you know that?

**Cluny,

Tell me about sin, will you?
---marc on 11/30/14**

Why should I? Your own heart should tell you all you need to know.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/30/14


Aka, as the long record shows ask me a question about what I believe and I will answer. Cluny evades answers which simply means he is evasive. Why so? What is he hiding? What does he not want people to know about the denomination he attends?
---Warwick on 11/30/14


Cluny,

Tell me about sin, will you?
---marc on 11/30/14


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Cluny, Why wouldn't Paul mention the Orthodox church along with the churches of Asia Minor ?
Which of those seven churches gave birth to the Orthodox ?
---1stcliff on 11/30/14


Warwick and haz27,

There is a fine line between obsession and conviction. There is access to information on the Orthodox church.

Jesus' church is a body made of many parts. Protestants act like everybody is supposed to be the mouth. The beliefs of Cluny and the Orthodox church are way too involved to discuss here. And, also why should he? He says where he goes, so why don't you go check it out instead of using a few loose scriptures to downplay his convictions.
---aka on 11/30/14


In historical reality the church of the followers of Jesus Christ, Creator and Saviour, began denominationless, in Jerusalem before any organization, including Orthodoxy. This is recorded in Acts chapter two.

Cluny, I think Haz has a good point: please explain the gospel to us. If you are indeed Biblically based you should have nothing to hide.
---Warwick on 11/29/14


\\Cluny, you really need to get your priorities right and follow Christ, instead of some denomination. Christ is not divided.
---Haz27 on 11/29/14\\

That's precisely why I'm Orthodox. I don't follow denominations founded by mere mortals, but the ORIGINAL pre-denominational Church founded by Christ Himself.

Unlike you, Haz.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/30/14


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Cluny. You truly obsess about the (false) authority of the Orthodox denomination, yet you consistently avoid telling us what you understand of the gospel. This shows us what your priorities are.

BTW, Christ is not divided, so there should be no denominations, not even Orthodoxy.

1Cor 1:12,13 Now I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos, or I am of Cephas, or I am of Christ. Is Christ divided?

Cluny, you really need to get your priorities right and follow Christ, instead of some denomination. Christ is not divided.
---Haz27 on 11/29/14


//The denominations, starting with Roman Catholicism, came after the founding of Orthodoxy.// Cluny

not arguing. Just learning.

I thought it was more of a division of Chalcedonian Christianity. Eastern (Greek) and Western (Latin) branches, later known as Eastern Orthodox Churchand the Roman Catholic Church.

As i understand, the former traces its history through the Roman and Byzantine Empires specifically through the churches established by St. Paul and the Apostles. The latter of course believes the true church is through peter.

I grew up in the Catholic education system, which was very good. However, that was when the church opened the scriptures to the laity. My beliefs now align with a more orthodox view.
---aka on 11/29/14


The denominations, starting with Roman Catholicism, came after the founding of Orthodoxy.

And, of course, Protestants broke away from RC and from each other.

Even the worldly denominational "church" of Steveng will be found to have broken away from something else.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/14


Thank you Helen. I am aware that you were answering the specific question but this site works by others then responding, not only to the question, BUT ALSO to the answers given by other users. For that reason you will see interaction between us all. A site meant purely for Qs. and As. would have just ONE entry from each person with no 'coming back to discuss each others' contributions.

Each blog would end very quickly and soon become a very boring website.

If you choose not to tell us where YOU worship that is absolutely fine. Every blessing to you.
---Rita_H on 11/29/14


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Steven, don't you know by now that sinners become Christian when God changes their hearts? No one becomes a Christian by attending any denominational church are even a home church like yours. This is just another blog from you bashing the denominational Churches. You should stop and ask God our Savior for forgiveness.
---Luke on 11/29/14


Rita H - You need to read the question again. It is the question posed in this blog that I responded to.
---Helen4633 on 11/28/14


Jesus wasn't a denomination, neither are we. We are called "Believers." We believe in God Our Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Don't forsake the the gathering of the breathren doesn't necessarily mean in a building. It means getting together in small home groups, large homes, auditoriums, etc. You are the church. The church isn't a building. Yes, I would still be a Christian if demonimational churches never existed. I belong to a church of believers in Christ Jesus. I'd become a Christian if denom. churches did not exist the same way I became one before....except the Father draw me by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are predestined to become Sons of God.
---donna9393 on 11/28/14


Welcome to Christianet Helen. In response to your post here, how and where do YOU worship God. There certainly will be no denominations in Heaven but it is in one of those denominations that we all share our faith as we 'gather together in His name'. We need those other people on a regular basis and will never all agree on everything. That is what causes the divisions. We all want to be seen to be the 'correct' one and will all find out one day that we were all wrong about something.
---Rita_H on 11/28/14


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Hebrews 10:25 says we must assemble ourselves together. sounds like a church to me. a Christian without association with other Christians is cold as dead men's bones.
---shira4368 on 11/28/14


I am a born again Christian - born again into Jesus Christ not a denomination. The one true Church is that of all born again Christians, of whom Jesus Christ is the Head. There will be no denominations in Heaven, only Spirit filled born again believers.
---Helen_4633 on 11/27/14


The Gospel is that JESUS came down to earth lived as a man died on the cross and is coming back to get us.

It is also that His death saves us from sin and the result of sin which is death. This is done by the Grace of GOD alone.

To follow the Gospel we must be Born Again by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Which leads us to love GOD and love people.

Those who love GOD and others act like it. Romans 13:8-10. 1corithians 15. John 3. 1st John.

Agape and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/27/14


\\When asked, many church goers cannot answer what is the gospel\\

And you didn't answer at all, Haz.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/27/14


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P.S. to my post below. None of what I said, concerning salvation, being, or becoming a "christian", is possible without grace [as Father's Divine influence upon the focus and direction of man]. The Holy Spirit [as Father direct Divine inspiration given for the enlightenment of man]. And faith [as a superimposed, unwavering confidence in Father's Word, principle, and promises, and His willingness to perform them]. All through the power and presence of His Spirit [the essence of His Being]. He gives man the faith to believe and the power to rest.It is all Him. If one feels one most work, then "labor to rest". Eph. 2:8,9
---Josef on 11/26/14


most churches are started in homes by 2 or 3 or more. I just believe what the bible says. 2 or 3 can meet outside of their church.
---shira4368 on 11/26/14


\\ What do you mean by "know the Gospel"?\\---Cluny.

When asked, many church goers cannot answer what is the gospel. They either admit they don't know or else they guess and give the wrong answer.

You're a slight exception though, Cluny. :)
When I asked you to give your understanding of the gospel you consistently refused to answer and instead told us here to look for liturgies on the web.
---Haz27 on 11/26/14


"For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there Am I in the midst of them."
If that means a small home-Church, or a Godly organized Church,
so be it.
---Gordon on 11/26/14

Amen.
Who is complaining or persecuting a single or pair of missionary's in a heathen country meeting as such?
Or having home Church in a far flung rural outpost, or whatever the situation warrants because of lack of bodies or believers.

Persecuting and judging someone or anyone gathering who is honoring Christ at home?? Not a good sign in our times.
---Trav on 11/26/14


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My thoughts on this, and my current belief, is that Church is as Yahushua/JESUS said in MATTHEW 18:20,
"For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there Am I in the midst of them."

If that means a small home-Church, or a Godly organized Church,
so be it.
---Gordon on 11/26/14


...How do you fulfill Christ's command to take the gospel "into all the world" by yourself?
---jerry6593 on 11/26/14

Christianet...is a one form of taking the "good news" truth. It's one of the ways I point to applicable scripture...witnessing scripture.
Only for men who, like me were not getting meat in the P.C. boxes.
Do we not exhort here? Do we not assemble? (amongst other things)
Has one Sheep...been located by the "good news"? Don't know this, but, have seen a glimmer in some searchers eyes?
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke...
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, ...
---Trav on 11/26/14


If the typical Catholic does not know the gospel then that suggests the great commission has not been fulfilled.
---Haz27 on 11/26/14

Good point. I agree that the "making disciples" part of the Great Commission may have been missed.

But before the printing press, the only Bibles were hand-copied manuscripts distributed by hand. And the preaching of the gospel was the only way for others to know of Jesus. The RCC did this well.

I also agree that the Great Commission has not been fulfilled. We must still do our part to "Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all that I commanded you".
---Mark_Eaton on 11/26/14


\\ I was typical of the majority who do not know the gospel.\\

What do you mean by "know the Gospel"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/26/14


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Steveng: How does your "stay out of churches" philosophy square with the scripture:

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

How do you fulfill Christ's command to take the gospel "into all the world" by yourself?



---jerry6593 on 11/26/14


Mark Eaton. Are you sure RCC fulfilled the great commission?

I'm ex-Catholic and like most Catholics (and other denominations like Orthodox), I was typical of the majority who do not know the gospel.

If the typical Catholic does not know the gospel then that suggests the great commission has not been fulfilled. Whilst there may be some individual cases where it was fulfilled by a few true Christians in the RCC, in the main that has clearly not been the case.

Having been to a variety of churches I've found that other denominations are slightly better at knowing the gospel than the likes of RCC.

Remember that Christ is our pastor and teacher, Matt 23:8-10. Denominations divide. But Christ is not divided, 1Cor 1:11-14.
---Haz27 on 11/26/14


Denominational churches are "Packaged religion"
To become a "member" you take the whole package...doctrines, rituals etc.. !
---1stcliff on 11/26/14


"If denominational "churches" never existed, would you still be a christian?" Yes, if that is what one calls the believer and follower of the teachings of the Christ and the ones sent to convey His message.
"How would you become a christian if denominational "churches" did not exist?"
The same way the believer does now, believing that Jesus the Christ died for the payment and our forgiveness of sin, acknowledging and confessing Jesus as Lord of salvation, and 'believing' [relying on, adhering to, trusting in, and depending upon Him, and the fact] that the Father has raised Him from the dead for the believer's justification.
---Josef on 11/25/14


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And you agree with Steveng in his attack mode against other Christians.

Just HOW have I persecuted Steveng? Nothing I say will take a dollar from his pocket or a day off his life.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/14


Bearing witness for Steven before GOD.\\
1. You are observing and watching the wrong things.
2. I bear witness for JESUS, not Steveng and his worldly denominational "church".
---Cluny on 11/25/14

1. True...have been observing you persecute Steveng...a wrong thing. With no scriptural defense on your part.
2. You are witness for Steven, against yourself. Persecuting/Judging ... Steveng a confessing Christian.
---Trav on 11/25/14


\\As a observer/watchman...he has warned you and it offends. Bearing witness for Steven before GOD.\\

1. You are observing and watching the wrong things.

2. I bear witness for JESUS, not Steveng and his worldly denominational "church".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/14


The Church drove me/many away with its weak un-witnessed messages, breeding more questions, than answering any. Add time wasting rituals and PC effeminate men at the head of the whole. It has gotten steadily worse, through this confusion by not understanding scripture.
---Trav on 11/25/14

And what did you do about this?

Did you try to improve your church by working with the pastor, elders, teachers, or ministers? Did you work to correct the doctrine by teaching classes, mentoring children, or discipling others? Did you get on church boards and work to exhort the body and its direction?

Or did you choose to leave and try another church? Or worse yet, choose to be your own church?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/25/14


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What offends me is the disrespect and condemnation that my brothers and sisters who attend denominational churches receive from Steven.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/25/14

Having been baptised and brought up in Denominational Churches I understand you and yet agree with Steven. The Church drove me/many away with its weak un-witnessed messages, breeding more questions, than answering any. Add time wasting rituals and PC effeminate men at the head of the whole. It has gotten steadily worse, through this confusion by not understanding scripture. For Steven to take a rebuking stand is bravery similar to the Prophets.
As a observer/watchman...he has warned you and it offends. Bearing witness for Steven before GOD.
---Trav on 11/25/14


Steven not embracing your "wide way" highway drives you guys crazy as evidenced.
---Trav on 11/25/14

Actually, I could care less if he accepts or attends denominations or not.

What offends me is the disrespect and condemnation that my brothers and sisters who attend denominational churches receive from Steven. Ripe is the harvest but few are the workers and insulting them because of where they attend is senseless.

I believe that the commandment Jesus gave to us is paramount, next to loving God Himself:

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/25/14


If I learned anything in denominational churches it is to avoid them
---michael_e on 11/25/14


No, I would not be a christian without a "denominational" church. I am a christian because I learned the love of God through a "denominational church." I am not a christian because my church is perfect, I am a christian because my church is NOT perfect. Both of us, me and my local church, need the love of God which is greater than all my sin.
---Scott1 on 11/25/14


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Steven, Steven, Steven.
We owe the Roman Catholics a debt of gratitude for fulfilling the Great Commission.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/25/14

Steven not embracing your "wide way" highway drives you guys crazy as evidenced.
GOD will reward the ortho created R.C.'s for their works. Christianity expanded by Protestant introduction of public scripture for any searcher.
Surely we are thankful for the comparison of slave versus free.
RC's succeed in their devised universal commission mission but, failing in Christs, by misapplication of scripture.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 11/25/14


Steven, Steven, Steven.

Would any of us be Christians if the Roman Catholics had never existed? They are perhaps the first "denominational" church. And I find it funny that you put quote marks around churches and not denominational. Are you judging the quality of their hearts? Are you God?

I for one would not be a Christian without the Roman Catholics. My family's origins go back to England and their influence in Europe is profound. Their evangelism took the Bible to the four corners of the world. We owe the Roman Catholics a debt of gratitude for fulfilling the Great Commission.

BTW, how is your group doing on the Great Commission?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/25/14


If universities didn't exist, I wouldn't have my degrees.

There is an ancient saying: "Unus Christianus, nullus Christianus. Nobody is a Christian all by himself."

The notion that you can become a Christian all by yourself smacks of Pelegianism.

Remember, the worldly denominational "church" of StevenG wouldn't have the Bible without the ancient church it so despises.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/14


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