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Baptism Scares Me

I've had implants in my spine and can't/ not suppose to bend backwards. How else are people totally immersed? I am also Terrified of water!!! I understand that fear is not from God! I can't even get in a pool that is near getting over my head. I have panic attacks.

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 ---Shannon on 12/15/14
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//So you are using Paul as your Messiah?//
Of course not
As Paul says
2 Tim 2:15 "RIGHTLY DIVIDE"
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
1 Tim 1: 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that IN ME FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN TO THEM which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
1Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
---michael_e on 1/12/15


trav, that thank you for the correction was sincere. deception has most always been the rule and not the exception.
---aka on 1/12/15


The Church the body of Christ revealed first to Paul, is not made up of a nation or tribes.
---michael_e on 1/9/15

So you are using Paul as your Messiah? Word search "twelve" found 165 times.
Mar_9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Luk_22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, had twelve gates, at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
---Trav on 1/12/15


as long as the word gentile is defined as a non-jacob, then the bible makes no sense unless you believe in total replacement.

of which is only supported by various individual scriptures that are not backed by the law or prophets which even Paul knows in verses ignored conveniently.
---aka on 1/9/15

You've again said it best in fewer words. Whether the recipient will do the study on the word "gentile" is another thing. But, some "drawn" specific one will out of the thousands. They may never reply here. May be years for the "light" to come on. One could call it seed of truth. Truth takes hold where nothing else will grow.
Psa_25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy ...
Joh_8:45
---Trav on 1/12/15


Michael, great use of God's word for replacement theology.

ME(Paul) to you-ward (gentiles)."

Again the word gentiles was usurped. A prodigal son needs grace after using his inheritance.

John 1:16-17 KJV

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
---aka on 1/11/15




This Gospel of the Grace of God(revealed first to Paul,Rom 16:25) is something different than anything that was ever laid on Israel. God turned to ALL mankind without religion, priesthood, or temple. He goes straight to the heart of the believer, and makes him a new person, then places(baptizes) him into the Body of Christ.
Eph 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles. 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given ME(Paul) to you-ward."
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
---michael_e on 1/11/15


//To whom was the body of Christ first revealed?//
Paul

---michael_e on 1/9/15

Paul was one of the first to understand. But, gentiles, in the true sense of the word, were only part.

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Not the revelation to paul,but the revelation and understanding of the holy scriptures to his children including paul

Paul was a chosen weakness, a broken vessel, like all true believers to show God's strength.
---aka on 1/11/15


//To whom was the body of Christ first revealed?//
Paul
---michael_e on 1/9/15


John 6:56 "He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwellethin me, and I in him."

To whom was the body of Christ first revealed?
---Nana on 1/9/15


as long as the word gentile is defined as a non-jacob, then the bible makes no sense unless you believe in total replacement.

of which is only supported by various individual scriptures that are not backed by the law or prophets which even Paul knows in verses ignored conveniently.
---aka on 1/9/15




//Plan prophecied...in the OT, fulfilled in the New Covenant. "far off" is our contextual clue.//
Dan_9:7 ..to the MEN OF JUDAH, and to the INHABITANTS of JERUSALEM and unto ALL ISRAEL that are near, and that are "far off".
Israel in dispersion
Mic_4:7 I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast "far off" a strong NATION: the LORD shall reign over them ...
The Church the body of Christ revealed first to Paul, is not made up of a nation or tribes.
---michael_e on 1/9/15


Eph 2:13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
---michael_e on 1/8/15

Plan prophecied...in the OT, fulfilled in the New Covenant.
"far off" is our contextual clue.
Dan_9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day, to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are "far off", through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
Mic_4:7 I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast "far off" a strong nation: the LORD shall reign over them ...
Heb 8:8
---Trav on 1/9/15


Use a good concordance to look up strangers in Israel. Also in the Exodus there was a huge mixed multitude that joined to Israel. Read Psalm 117.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/9/15

Neh_13:3 Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.
Neh 13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.
Neh 13:27 Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?
---Trav on 1/9/15


Paul knows that salvation was the way back of His Own to the Father...Iesus is the delivery

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Gen_49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.

Exo_14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day:

1Sa_2:1 And Hannah prayed, ...My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD:...I rejoice in thy salvation.

1Ch_16:35 And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, ...

Psa_13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy, my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation
---aka on 1/9/15


Wrong Michaele.

Isiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,

Use a good concordance to look up strangers in Israel. Also in the Exodus there was a huge mixed multitude that joined to Israel. Read Psalm 117.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/9/15


There is no plan of Salvation for US in the O T,...
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew?... 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Eph 2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh.." 12 "That at that time ye were without Christ... and without God in the world:" 13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
---michael_e on 1/8/15


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The ground breaking of construction for the road to salvation for humans to see happened in the 3rd chapter of Genesis. The side roads that we take are dimly lit and without the prophets and precepts, there is no good foundation underneath of the roads that we deem as well lit.

In the OT, between the ESV and kjv, salvation is written on an average of over 120x.

It is not like there was a path full of thorns and thistles with no Light and the next day there was a fully lit superhighway.

The road to salvation is there and fully visible, but only the lord has the vehicle to use it. Not every hitchhiker will get a ride.
---aka on 1/8/15


... theres not a road to salvation in the OT Theres no plan of Salvation for us in the O T,...
---michael_e on 1/7/15

Michael...The Old Testament was the Road. The plan is prophecied. The plan was expected. Christ refers to the prophets. The Apostles recognized Christ because of the prophets. We realize the truth of both because of the witness of both.
Gen_49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Luk_1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
1Pe_1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
---Trav on 1/8/15


Hebrews can be difficult when we don't rightly divide Israels testaments from the mystery of Christ
Paul tells us to study the OT.(Rom 15:4) Its like the Book of Hebrews, theres not a road to salvation in the OT Theres no plan of Salvation for us in the O T, theres nothing of the Gospel of Grace in the OT but we study it.
---michael_e on 1/7/15


Michael,...you say the book of Hebrews is not for Church doctrine.
You make it sound like we might as well just not every read it.
---John on 1/7/15

Mike might just soon you didn't read or discuss it.
Hebrews is specific. Specific is not popular. Doctrines / Dogma's cannot deal with specific. And might have to ask the Lord or witnesses assistance for the answers.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
---Trav on 1/7/15


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Michael, you are very wrong when you say the book of Hebrews is not for Church doctrine. Have you read it? really read it?
One of the key theological themes in Hebrews is that all believers now have direct access to God under the New Covenant and, therefore, may approach the throne of God boldly (Heb. 4:16: 10:22). One's hope is the very presences of God. You make it sound like we might as well just not every read it. The writer of Hebrews also gives six warnings. Which are very important for Church doctrine.
---John on 1/7/15


Micheal...Hebrews 10.1 is about the law. The law is but a type and shadow.

I am going to get off your selected verse merry go round of convenient verses now.
---aka on 1/5/15


//did not jesus say he came to fulfill all the law?// Of course, but they did not accept Him.
//Another scripture you will argue with is Hebrews 9:9-10//
No argument here.
Hebrews, is not a book of Church doctrine, not a word about Salvation based on Christs death, burial and resurrection, or reference to the boC, or reference to faith + nothing as seen often in Rom. It's not a book of corrections and admonitions as is Gal. I compare Heb. with the OT, written to Israel.
//Now, can you tell me a city that was not wicked?//
Do you see any compared to this 1 Cor 5:1
---michael_e on 1/5/15


Michael...did not jesus say he came to fulfill all the law? Or Is that just concerning sacrifice?

Another scripture you will argue with is Hebrews 9:9-10 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings [including baptism], regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

Now, can you tell me a city that was not wicked? Did the holy spirit reveal to paul a different teaching considering the degree of wickedness?
---aka on 1/5/15


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//Hebrews 10.1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come//
Where is water baptism here?

//And what disposition is this?//
The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write concerning women. and there is reason for it. Studying Corinthians it was a wicked, immoral city, like the internet is coming close to now, Also Paul was dealing with a different culture.
---michael_e on 1/5/15


//it is but a shadow of things to come//
You find this statement where? -michael_e


Hebrews 10.1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

//This must be part of Paul's thinking dealing with...// michael_e

And what disposition is this?
---aka on 1/5/15


//it is but a shadow of things to come//
You find this statement where?
//are women silent the whole time,every time?//
Christianity has brought women to almost equal level with men. Paul, still writing in the culture of that time, says, "Women be subdued, don't be talkative, don't take authority in the Church."
It began, in Gen 3:16 "... thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
That's how God commanded it to be, and all through the OT, women were overly subdued. This must be part of Paul's thinking dealing with the Corinthians. The women were to recognize man was still head of the family, and head of the woman, and she was to be subdued under those services in the Church.
---michael_e on 12/27/14


1 Corinthians 10:3_4 "And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:..."
Hebrews 12:12 "Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees.."

Born of water, 1 Peter 3:21.
---Nana on 12/26/14


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Michael i agree about water baptism, it is but a shadow of things to come. But to judge it as wrong is a bit much.

In the church that you go,are women silent the whole time,every time? They should be according to the Law and Paul.
---aka on 12/26/14


It's wrong to ascribe the baptism of Rom 6:3-4 to the water baptism of John the Baptist, Jesus, or Peter at Pentecost. There is no mention of water in Romans. The verse says we are baptized into Christ. There's a huge difference between water baptism and baptism into Christ.
Strangely, many use Rom 6:3-4 to justify water baptism. They quickly point out the symbolism of going under water for burial, and coming up out of the water to resurrection. Paul never makes that symbolic connection, Instead, Paul writes in Rom 6:3-4 that we are baptized into the personage of Christ and as a result are crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20). This baptism into Christ is performed by the Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13
---michael_e on 12/26/14


\\Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(Not water)\\

We're baptized into Christ with water in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/26/14


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(Not water)
If you accepted Paul's gospel you were baptized into Christ.
Christ wasn't baptized into Christ. You were not following Christ in baptism, you were following Paul (1 Cor 4:16, 11:1)
---michael_e on 12/24/14


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michael e

"John water baptized to prepare for the kingdom Lk 3:3-7"

not exactly what the verses said, but it seems Paul was too. 1Th 2:12

"Nobody could follow Jesus in baptism, We can't either."

reading Rom 6:3-, that is a most curious statement. most scripture you posted in the latest response was at least somewhat obvious and correct. can you explain and back with scripture?
---aka on 12/24/14


Shannon, I understand your fears. My 8 year old granddaughter was just baptized and she also shares your fear of water. I suggest you visit with your pastor and explain your fears. By the way, you are correct, our Heavenly Father is not the author of fear. Also remember that when you do decide to be baptized that this is very pleasing to our Father. Matthew 3:17
---trey on 12/24/14


Acts 10:1_2 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."
Acts 10:34_35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Cornelious received grace for his righteousness.

Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
---Nana on 12/24/14


Jesus' baptism was "to fulfil all righteousness. Matt 3:15
John water baptized to prepare for the kingdom Lk 3:3-7
John forbad the Lord's baptism, because he had no sin to remit (Matt 3:13-17)
Jesus was baptized alongside, not before, sinful Israel to fulfil all righteousness
He wasn't starting a new ordinance, but fulfilling an old one Exo 29:4-7
Jesus knew baptism would begin his ministry Luke 2:49 Matt 3:16-17
Nobody could follow Jesus in baptism, We can't either.
Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, we are unrighteous, we need grace
He wasn't baptized as something new, or a pattern, for remission, but to fulfill righteousness as Israels Messiah.
---michael_e on 12/23/14


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Israel-12 tribes, 12 Apostles under Law
Body of Christ-1 body, 1 Apostle, under grace
---michael_e on 12/22/14

You are 10 parts correct. Judah...not accepting a messiah to this day, still blindly operates under the Old Law. You'll
find the other 10 virgins B.O.C. in Christianity.
Christ did not fail Matt 10:6/Matt 15:24.

Note another scripture: Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
These city's of Israel exist to be gone over. And with communications being what they are today...
---Trav on 12/22/14


It is important to read the Bible.
---Jimbo on 12/22/14


Michael, The tribes were given 12 portions of the land. With joseph portion given to his sons that makes 13 tribes. in early medieval times, exile was for real. Jacob was never reestablished. These exiled gentilemen never returned as they were assimilated into other lands and started other nations. That is why paul said those without law are not subject to the law...GRACE. this would provoke those who were supposed to know the law but we're dead. Now,to make a non fruit bearing tree to produce is to graft in a branch with buds. Can a peach tree be grafted into an olive tree? No matter. I pointed out that the truth will be resolved in the end two chapters of rev. In the end, the question is not what is the temple and what is the truth. It is who.
---aka on 12/22/14


\\ The "church" IS the whole assembly of true christians. \\

You must seem to think that the worldly dehominational "church" of Steveng is the totality of the church, then.

St. Paul wrote to one person referring to "the church in your house." This was clearly a LOCAL church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/22/14


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//12 tribes - joseph + manaseh and ephriam = 13 tribes//
Sorry aka, God says 12
Ezek 47:13"..according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two PORTIONS"
Matt 19:28 "..ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Acts 26:7 "Unto which promise our twelve tribes..."
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes.."
Rev 21:12 ".. at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"
Israel-12 tribes, 12 Apostles under Law
Body of Christ-1 body, 1 Apostle, under grace
---michael_e on 12/22/14


12 tribes - joseph + manaseh and ephriam = 13 tribes

Oops

12 tribes - levi + manaseh + ephriam
---aka on 12/22/14


Michael e...nope.

Paul was called by Jesus to be an apostle to his gentiles. Initiated by peter, Mathias was chosen by the holy spirit (lots) as written in psalms.

The eleven chose mathias by lot (holy spirit) to proclaim the resurrection like paul did eventually.

12 tribes - joseph + manaseh and ephriam = 13 tribes

12 apostles - judas + mathias + paul = 13 apostles

13 reconciled to 12 of Israel in rev.
---aka on 12/21/14


Cluny wrote: "There were no local churches and hence no local presbyters at this point."

You must not have read your bible. The "church" IS the whole assembly of true christians. The churches mentioned in the NT, such as in the beginning of Revelation, were the LOCATION of a group (assembly) of christians - NOT denominations. If one were to go to a certain church of God they would mention the location of that assembly. How else would the apostles differentiate between the churches? 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Peter 5:13, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 5:32, Philemon 1:2

Besides, when Jesus said he was going to build his church (singular), he didn't say churches (plural).
---Steveng on 12/21/14


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//Jesus did not dispatch matthias.---aka on 12/21/14//
12 tribes=!2 apostles
Before the day of Pentecost, Peter led believers in replacing the twelfth position left empty by Judas.
Acts 1:20 explains from the Psalms how there was a necessity to fill the position left empty by Judas (Acts 1:25).
Did you think Paul replaced Judas?
---michael_e on 12/21/14


Mathias was only mentiioned twice. One might conclude that the apostles' lot is not as significant its Jesus's choice. However, the significance is immense.

The spirit of God chose mathias as the 12th to witness about the resurrection Acts 1.22 once ordained.

(how can the apostles teach and witness about the 'cross' if they understood nothing about it.)

Jesus instructed to baptize (immerse) them in the name of the father, son,and holy spirit. Peter revisits this in 1peter3. Baptism saves not like in the past but in knowledge of the resurrection of christ. Mathias was ordained in the knowledge of the resurrection.

Plus, 12/13 apostles then ties it to the 12/13 tribes.
---aka on 12/21/14


Jesus did not dispatch matthias.
---aka on 12/21/14


//12 were not...11 were. after his resurrection.//
What about Matthias?

//Baptism would normally be done by the local presbyters.//
//There were no local churches and hence no local presbyters at this point//
That is confusing
---michae_e on 12/20/14


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So why were the 12 sent to baptize? ---michael_e on 12/19/14

12 were not...11 were. after his resurrection.

neither paul nor the 11 had full knowledge of the mysteries of the cross until after Jesus' resurrection.

you said in another blog, peter was trying to prevent it. it seems that paul was trying to kill it for a time after resurrection.
---aka on 12/20/14


\\//Baptism would normally be done by the local presbyters.//
So why were the 12 sent to baptize?\\

Somebody had to start.

There were no local churches and hence no local presbyters at this point.

Or are you so confused that you think that baptism was something only for Jews?

Following that line of reasoning, the Eucharist is something only for Jews, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/14


//'Im not the one who's confused.//
Yes my young friend you are confused,
//Baptism would normally be done by the local presbyters.//
So why were the 12 sent to baptize?
those who submit themselves to water baptism believing it is necessary in order for God to be satisfied are also placing their trust back under a conditional system originating from the law.
Paul teaches that we have been delivered from the curse of the law. Today we have the testimony of the grace of God, which is belief in the one baptism of Eph 4:5.
Water baptism is for those entering the kingdom come to Israel, or who are ignorant of the mystery truths given to Paul.
---michael_e on 12/19/14


\\No water baptism in Ephesians. Your replacement theology has you confused.\\

I'm not the one who's confused.

\\Paul baptized because he was sent to minister to Jews also, when he did he became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews,.." (1 Cor 9:20).\\

Jews like the Philippian jailer or the proto-congregation in Samaria who had not had Christian baptism?

\\More important why would Paul stop baptizing?, \\

Because as a missionary bishop, that was not part of his ministry. Baptism would normally be done by the local presbyters.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/14


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No water baptism in Ephesians. Your replacement theology has you confused.
Paul baptized because he was sent to minister to Jews also, when he did he became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews,.." (1 Cor 9:20).
More important why would Paul stop baptizing?,
I thank God I baptized none of you , save a few, and For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Cor 1:17).
The Lord commanded his twelve to teach the law and baptize all nations (Matt 28:19-20). Peters message was repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
When Paul says Christ sent me not to baptize, he's saying he was not following Matt 28 or baptizing under the command given to Peter.
---michael_e on 12/19/14


//Ephesians is talking about water baptism//
Wrong try again\\

Denying that Ephesians is talking about water baptism won't change the fact it is.

\\No one preaching the baptism gospel understood the preaching of the cross.\\

That you don't grasp they are part of the same message proves that you don't ,understand either.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/14


//Ephesians is talking about water baptism//
Wrong try again
No one preaching the baptism gospel understood the preaching of the cross.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one(1 not 3) baptism,
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit (not Man)are we all baptized into one body,(not water)
Wherever the baptism gospel is presented in scripture it is for remission of sins.
Paul taught the cross of Christ for forgiveness of sins. Water baptism had been replaced by something greater!
At one time the gospel of a kingdom and remission of sins was tied to water baptism. Until Paul.
It was first known by Paul that water baptism was not required and was separate from the true forgiveness of sins which is through Christs blood (Eph 1:7).
---michael_e on 12/18/14


\\Many argue over the merits, mode, and method of water baptism, and neglect the boC baptism into Christ requiring no water\\

Wrong.

Ephesians is talking about water baptism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/18/14


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Many argue over the merits, mode, and method of water baptism, and neglect the boC baptism into Christ requiring no water.
It's this one baptism of every believer into Christ that identifies us in Christ, our resurrection, our new creation, our communion, and our inheritance with the Lord.
Paul, the apostle to the predominately gentile church makes it clear there is one baptism in Eph 4:5 no water involved.
Paul says there is only one so it must be the one baptism he teaches. Found in 1Cor 12:13 and Rom 6:3.
It is performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you. Anyone can be water baptized, only believers are baptized into Christ
---michael_e on 12/18/14


Many argue over the merits, mode, and method of water baptism, and neglect the boC baptism into Christ requiring no water.
It's this one baptism of every believer into Christ that identifies us in Christ, our resurrection, our new creation, our communion, and our inheritance with the Lord.
Paul, the apostle to the predominately gentile church makes it clear there is one baptism in Eph 4:5 no water involved.
Paul says there is only one so it must be the one baptism he teaches. Found in 1Cor 12:13 and Rom 6:3.
It is performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you.
---michael_e on 12/18/14


\\ Baptism shouldn't scare you,
water has nothing to do with baptism into the boC.\\

Yes, it does.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/18/14


Baptism shouldn't scare you,
water has nothing to do with baptism into the boC.
Jesus commanded baptism for the remission of sins, Jesus also taught the law while confirming promises given to Israel. Rom 15:8
The message of the cross is available to all without covenant status,circumcision, or water baptism.
Once we truly believe Christ was the blood propitiation for our sins, we are baptized into the Lord 1 Cor12:13
We are not baptized into water to remit our sins, we are baptized into Christ
Rom 6:3-4
Pauls writings alone give us instructions from the risen Lord.
---michael_e on 12/18/14


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Cluny, I was just trying to understand more of your church. I don't go to church. I don't attend any home 'churches'. I read, research, and meditate on what I read and experience. My wife and I talk, as well as my boy.

By your post to steveng, I thought that you may have done more research. The mikvah is performed in an upright position. The candidate, in front of at least 3 witnesses, reaches forward and squats to submerge and then resurfaces untouched. Then repeats 2 more times. Mikvah is used 3x in the Torah. Paul gives us the biggest description by calling the baptism a "circumcision without hands".
---aka on 12/18/14


\\The tradition of the Church. ---Cluny

and who decides the tradition of the church?
---aka on 12/17/14\\

The church does, as in this example when confronted with an unusual situation.

Even under the Old Law, it was written, "You shall live by these laws, and not die by them."

Who determined which way the Baptizand should face in YOUR church, aka? The Bible itself gives no indication whatsoever.

The immersion in the Mikveh, as far as I can determine, was done in a more or less upright position.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/14


The tradition of the Church. ---Cluny

and who decides the tradition of the church?
---aka on 12/17/14


\\Where does the varying end? Who decides?\\

The tradition of the Church.

In the case of Baptism, it means that the normal mode is triple immersion. When this cannot be done, you come as close to it as you can.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/14


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Where does the varying end? Who decides?

Jesus was neither a Christian nor baptized as a christian. He came not to replace the Law but to fulfill it. So, for every one here who insist on water baptism using jesus words should also teach what was mikvah to suit God is and not modified baptism to suit man.

What did paul mean by "circumcision without hands"? What authority do we have to change the baptism in jesus' day? Do you know the significance of self immersion x3 which is still practiced?
---aka on 12/17/14


\\It was self immersion x3. why self immersion? Why 3x?\\

The Mikveh involved self-immersion, but Christian baptism involves the baptizer having physical contact with the baptizand as the formula is said, though this form of physical contact can vary.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/14


Steveng, who gives you the authority to tell others to step away from their rituals and their interpretation of the bible when you knew very little about Mikveh especially the baptism in jesus'day?

It was self immersion x3. why self immersion? Why 3x? And nude meant nude. Just because it was public..does not mean it was not within the Law. Why would a thin robe or underwear be wrong?

I'm sure that you have researched a little by now. The bible is a lot more than your simple word searches. Do you know what "circumcision without hands"is?
---aka on 12/17/14


Steveng, YOU are the one who needs to do research.

To this day, the rite of Mikveh, whether for conversion, purification, or other ritual reasons, is STILL done in the absolute nude by Jews.

The few ancient depictions of Christian baptism show the baptizand naked.

In the post-baptismal lectures to the neophytes, St. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote, "Oh the wonder! Like Adam and Eve before the fall, you were naked and not ashamed."

Acts 2 baptisms were done in the semi-privacy of the Mikvauth of the Temple.

The others were clearly PRIVATE events.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/16/14


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Cluny wrote: "In ancient times, baptism were done privately, not publicly, because they were done in the nude, following the Jewish Rite of Mikveh."

You need to do your research before you make yourself look like a fool. Baptisms were mostly done in public. (read your bible, John 3:23, Acts 2:41, Acts 16:33, Acts 19:5, 1 Corinthians 10:2) As for the word "nude," it doesn't mean what you think it means. It doesn't mean completely nude for a nude person still had a little cloth, "underwear," to cover their private parts.
---Steveng on 12/16/14


\\When you are baptized you are giving an out ward testimony to an inward action. \\

To whom was this testimony made?

In ancient times, baptism were done privately, not publicly, because they were done in the nude, following the Jewish Rite of Mikveh.

And baptism certainly was never done in the presence of unbelievers.

Don't confuse modern Protestant practice with historical fact.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/15/14


//When you are baptized you are giving an out ward testimony to an inward action//

when you show fruit of the spirit Gal 5 when formerly you were full of works of the flesh is true outward testimony to an inward change.

if baptism (in water) was absolutely necessary to salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross.

in our weakness, he shows his strength.
---aka on 12/16/14


Cluny is right that you could bend forward. You could also bend sideways or even lay flat. The issue of baptism is its symbolism of the death, burial and resurrection of our Savior, and the death of our old self and the birth of a new one. Pouring and sprinkling do not symbolize burial, and are thus inadequate.


---jerry6593 on 12/16/14


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In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus commanded all people of all nations to be baptized. And Jesus set the example by immersion. Mark 1:9,10

It's clear that baptism is an important requirement before actually being saved. Many denominational churches say it's your choice - sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Galatians 1:8,9, Matthew 15:9 Even the original leaders of these denominations say that the bible says immersion even thought they teach otherwise. Matthew 15:9

What does the bible say? Mark 1:9,10, Acts 8:39, Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12,

Shannon, your faith will set you free from the fear of immersion.
---Steveng on 12/15/14


You could join the Salvation Army, they don't baptize !
---1stcliff on 12/15/14


Don't confuse the method with the message. Colossians 2:12 When you are baptized you are giving an out ward testimony to an inward action. While immersion may be the method used - there are various types of immersion techniques. For example: some insist baptism has to be in running water such as a stream, some churches have there own baptistry, I've seen a swimming pool used, I've even seen a water hazard on a golf course used in Egypt. It's really a matter as to the method. As far as being fearful of water is concerned, had a friend who was a Christian for a number of years before being baptized because of his fear of water. He just prayed away his fear. From a medical perspective, that is something you need to confer with your pastor.
---wivv on 12/15/14


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