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Glorification Of Jesus

What's God plan for the glorification of His son on the earth?

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 ---steve on 1/4/15
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'The Formation of Christian Dogma, An Historical Study of its Problem.' Martin Werner, from Die Entstehung des Christlichen Dogmas, 1957), pp. 122, 125. (2)

Continued...

"...Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the
Father, is brought into consideration,...it is conceived of and represented
categorically as subordination. And the most decisive Subordinationist of the
New Testament, according to the Synoptic record, was Jesus himself...This
original position, firm and manifest as it was, was able to maintain itself for a
long time. All the great pre-Nicene theologians represented the subordination
of the Logos to God."
---scott on 1/19/15


"The doctrine of the Trinity...derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr] and this observation may be extended to all the ante-nicene Fathers, that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son and prophetic or Holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as Three in One."

The Church of the first Three Centuries, by Alvan Lamson, 1869, pp 75-76, 341
---scott on 1/19/15


'The Formation of Christian Dogma, An Historical Study of its Problem.' Martin Werner, from Die Entstehung des Christlichen Dogmas, 1957), pp. 122, 125. (1)

"In the Primitive Christian era [First Century] there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was...a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages...the Kingdom of God...That relationship was understood unequivocally as being one of subordination, i.e. in the sense of the subordination of Christ to God..."

Continued
---scott on 1/18/15


Thank you scott for your comments. I also look forward to enjoying everlasting life and sharing the "new earth" with ones such as yourself. There are going to be so many things to do and enjoy, let alone witnessing the resurrection (John 5:28, Acts 24:15, Rev.21:1-4).

I won't lower myself to respond in like toward learner2 with personal derogatory remarks as I don't want to start down the road of judging others. We need to treat some here as potential sheeplike individuals.
---David8318 on 1/15/15


"You're welcome to Origen." Marc

And there it is.

Following days of Marc's vitriolic accusations for daring to suggest that his stalwart of trinitarianism, ("bowdlerising him, 1/11/15, "dishonestly misquoting him, 1/11/15, "never checking accuracy", "untrustworthy", 1/9/15, "unscholarly", "reprehensibly dishonest", etc., etc.), he now tosses him away like bad fish.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to shed a little light on Marc's misconception regarding the church "Fathers". I'm sure he would have thanked me, had he not exhausted his word limit renouncing the Trinitarian champion that he defended yesterday.
---scott on 1/14/15




Scott, enjoy!
---learner2 on 1/13/15


Learner2- it will be far more peaceful spending an eternity with JW's than with polytheist trinitarians who have spent the last 1700 years fighting eachother!
---David8318 on 1/14/15


Scott, you're welcome to Origen.

"He showed himself to be a stoic, a Neo-Pythagorean, and a Platonist. Like Plotinus, he wrote that the soul passes through successive stages before incarnation as a human and after death, eventually reaching God. He imagined even demons being reunited with God. For Origen, God was not Yahweh but the First Principle, and Christ, the Logos, was subordinate to him. His views of a hierarchical structure in the Trinity, "the fabulous preexistence of souls", and "the monstrous restoration which follows from it" were declared anathema in the 6th century. Because of his heretical views, Origen is technically not a Church Father. (Wikipedia)
---Marc on 1/14/15


"Can you imagine spending eternity with people who were all like David8318?" learner2

Why yes! As a matter of fact I can and I'm delighted at the very thought of it...especially after my many years as a Baptist.
---scott on 1/13/15


Can you imagine spending eternity with people who were all like David8318?
---learner2 on 1/13/15




Proverbs 8:22-25- Micha9344

Holman (HCSB):

"The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. 23 I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. 24 I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. 25 I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, 26 before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. 27 I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, 28 when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out...30 I was a skilled craftsman beside Him...rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race."
---scott on 1/13/15


'What an absolutely unbelievable bunch of pagan toss'- Marc.

What you spout about JW's and the Bible is a complete load of toss, lies and rubbish.

Jehovah God is the creator only... no one else- Amos 9:6.

Regardless of what I believe, your pagan polytheist filth is not Bible based.
---David8318 on 1/13/15


"Certain Creatures" ("of these Christ was the highest and best")- Origen

Perhaps we can help Marc out with the meaning/etymology of the word.

Crea-ture:

"Middle English (in the sense 'something created'): via Old French from late Latin creatura, from the verb creare (see create)."
---scott on 1/13/15


David, my point is, I don't want to spend eternity in a universe that is only populated by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society people.
---learner2 on 1/13/15


David replies: "This obviously includes DNA, [mitochondria, photosynthesis etc all being created by Jesus]. Have you got it yet!?"

I've finally got it David. You and the other JWs believe an angel, a creature called Michael, created everything but space (and possibly time). In other words, a creature is the [other] Creator and that the Logos, the very Word of YHWH is an angel.

What an absolutely unbelievable bunch of pagan toss!
---Marc on 1/13/15


Why would anyone believe that God was ever without His Word, His Wisdom, or His Power?
Interpreting the Bible according to beliefs rather than the letting the Bible shape those beliefs, therefore gaining the correct interpretation, is heretical.
---Micha9344 on 1/13/15


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PART 2
Origen's full passage: "To let us understand the Word has His own definite place and sphere as one who has life in Himself (and is a distinct person), we must speak about powers, not about power. Thus says the Lord of powers, we frequently read, there are certain creatures, rational and divine, called powers: and of these Christ was the highest and best, and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power."

Scott, special pleads and takes Origen out of context. Despite Origen's argument Christ and Wisdom are NOT created, despite arguing that Christ is God, Scott won't admit to the evidence right in front of his face. That's delusion.

No teeth-gnashing from me. Just always amazed by your lies.
---Marc on 1/13/15


'clear JW Bible logic'- Marc.

Yes the clear Bible logic taught by JW's has exposed Marc as nothing more that a run-of-the-mill polytheist trinitarian.

Trinitarians will scream until they're blue in the face they worship only "one God". But exert a bit of pressure with clear Bible logic, they buckle revealing they do worship multiple "creator gods".

Marc articulates his polytheism in no uncertain terms. Jesus "CREATED", was Marc's insistence on 1/8/15. Then on 1/12/15 Marc tells us the one creating "through" Jesus is the Father! Another case of Marc's inept pagan polytheism perhaps?

JW's on the otherhand have always taught Jehovah (YHWH) is the creator- Gen.1:1, Heb.3:4.
---David8318 on 1/13/15


Marc's shell game-

Origen (or any church "Father") referring to Christ as "God" is completely in line with scripture as well as the early Judeo-Christian definition of elohim/theos that was applied to men, angels, judges, Christ and the Almighty. It does not indicate equality with God Almighty.

But what Origen wrote, and what Marc is clumsily trying to avoid, is his identification of Christ as the Created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22. That "Wisdom"/Christ would therefore and obviously (according to Origen) have a beginning.

Referring to Christ as "God" doesn't negate that clear point. We recall that Moses was called God by the Almighty himself at Ex 7:1.
---scott on 1/13/15


PART 1

It ALWAYS pays to check Scott's quotes. What Origen wrote, from the same 42nd chapter, preceding Scott's cut-and-paste surgery was: "The Logos was made flesh, The Logos was God. The Word (reason) was made flesh and The Word was God. [Logos] being in wisdom, which is called the beginning, does not prevent it from being with God and from being God, so He was with God in the beginning, and All things were made by Him, being in the beginning, for God made all things."

No hint of a creaturely Christ here. Scott tries to enlist Origen et al to support his heresy but his delusion appears untreatable.
---Marc on 1/13/15


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Learner2- don't go away believing there's salvation through the polytheist pagan trinity dcotrine.
---David8318 on 1/13/15


If the Jehovah of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the true God, then I will happily jump into the lake of fire and be annihilated.
---learner2 on 1/12/15


Christ as the created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22-

Cyprian: (210-258)


"That Christ is the Firstborn, and that He is the Wisdom of God by whom all things were made. In Solomon, in the Proverbs: Lord established me in the beginning of His ways, into His works: before the world He founded me. In the beginning, before He made the earth...the Lord Begot me...

...Also Paul to Colossians: Who Is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature... That He also is both the wisdom and the power of God, Paul proves in his first Epistle to the Corinthians...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [1 Cor. 1:24]" Treatises of Cyprian, 2nd Book, first testimony, Volume V, pages 515-6.
---scott on 1/12/15


Marc's Predictable teeth gnashing-

Was there somewhere (anywhere) buried in the flurry of Marc's ad hominem rantings a response to Origen's clear statement (citation provided) that:

"There are certain creatures rational and divine, which are called powers, and of these [creatures] Christ was the highest and best and is called not only, the wisdom of God but also His power." ?

John, Book I, chapter 42, ANF, pp. 321-2.

You would think that with a 125 word limit he would have saved a few for a simple reply as to why his "apologist" called Christ a "creature"...albeit the best and highest.
---scott on 1/12/15


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David explains with "clear JW Bible logic".

A triple oxymoron!

JW incoherency about a creature/angel being the creator of DNA and photosynthesisis is neither clear, biblical and not in the least bit logical. However, I admit it follows from your New World [Mis]Translation.

Scott's ongoing shoot-myself-in-the-foot-quoting-out-of-context-because-I-cut-and-paste-from-unchecked-websites is irrationality incarnate. Scott, livid as any madman I've had to counsel, keeps on trying to plug that the Early Church Fathers, Christ's heirs and active well before the JW hero Arius spewed forth his heretical venom, were incipient JWs. Now that's a sign of real madness, Scott: believing something is real that really ain't there!
---Marc on 1/12/15


'no point in trying to inform a man who is host to devils inside him'- aservant.

I agree. Someone sucked into the pagan trinity is full of the 'devils inside him'. You only have to look at Warwick to see his trinitarian cult has given him voices in the head to the extent he thinks "God" is talking to him! And those 'devils' tell Warwick to 'take from pagan Mithraism'!

And Marc's indoctrination into the pagan trinity has led him headlong into polytheism.

The trinity is a strongly entrenched false doctrine. I don't argue with trinitarians. The Bible speaks for itself.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things"- 2Cor.10:4.
---David8318 on 1/12/15


There is utterly no point in trying to inform a man who is host to devils inside him, that puppeteer him. The devils intend to goad you into the sin of argument. Arguments drive away seekers of Jesus (readers of these posts).

2Ti 2:14 . . . not to fight over words. It does no good, but only ruins the people who listen.

2Ti 2:16 Keep away from profane and foolish discussions, which only drive people farther away from God.
2Ti 2:17 Such teaching is like an open sore that eats away the flesh.

2Tim 2:23 But keep away from foolish and ignorant arguments, you know that they end up in quarrels.
2Tim 2:24 As the Lord's servant, you must not quarrel.
---aservant on 1/12/15


'the one creating "through" Jesus [is]... the Father'- Marc 1/12/15.

'Jesus, for he CREATED the universe'- Marc 1/8/15.

You ought to swing your polytheist rehtoric by your trinitarian head honchos sitting in the vatican.

Or you could always adopt Robert Bowman's suggestion when he wrote, "It is, of course, legitimate for translators to add the word "other" where this does not change the meaning but simply makes for smoother English". Smoother English also means avoiding polytheism.

After the Father, Jehovah, created his 'firstborn' (v15), "by means of him (Jesus) all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth"- Col.1:16.
---David8318 on 1/12/15


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'The Father, obviously'- Marc.

So now Marc has 2 (two) creators!! Jesus who created "all things" and now the Father who is creating "through" Jesus! How many creators does Marc want!?

Marc has been complaining that it is Jesus who created "all things". Now he has the Father creating "through" Jesus!

Its only when Marc is confronted with clear JW Bible logic that he is forced to face the fact that there is an enitiy other than Jesus. It doesn't take much reasoning before a trinitarian admits his polytheist bent. Give Marc enough rope, and he'll hang himself!

Got you red-handed Marc... your're pushing polytheism in the form of the false pagan trinity.
---David8318 on 1/12/15


Approach Origen with caution, Scott.

He's like the girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead.

When he's good, he's very good.

And when he's bad he's horrid.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/12/15


Origen- Proverbs 8:22

"There are certain creatures rational and divine, which are called powers, and of these [creatures] Christ was the highest and best and is called not only, the wisdom of God but also His power."

John, Book I, chapter 42, ANF, pp. 321-2.

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old, I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water, before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth..." Proverbs 8:22-25, NIV
---scott on 1/12/15


David,

The god of this age blinded you once you joined the JWs.

You ask who is the one creating "through" Jesus? Can you not read plain Scripture? The Father, obviously!

Verse 12-13,19: "Giving thanks to the Father...he has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love...For it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] all the fullness should dwell".

BTW, it's BY, THROUGH and FOR Jesus the whole creation was brought into existence. Understand the THREE propositions' purposes!!
---Marc on 1/12/15


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'Did Jesus... create the invisible DNA code'

Refusing to believe Jehovah singularly created the universe, earth and yes DNA, trinitarians Marc, Samuelbb7 and aservant are incapable of answering a simple straight forward question.

If Jesus is the creator of "all things", and as Col.1:16 states 'all things have been created through Him and for Him (Holman,ASV,NAS,NKJV etc...)(also John 1:3 NIV),

Who is the one creating "through" Jesus?
---David8318 on 1/11/15


'God Incarnate'- Cluny.

"Incarnate" is another unscriptural word from an un-Orthodox false preacher.

If as Cluny falsely teaches "Jesus is God incarnate", then Jesus never died because God is eternal. If Jesus Christ never died, then there is no hope for sinful mankind- Matt.20:28.

There is no hope for followers of the apostate, un-Orthodox "Catholic without a pope" Cluny who teaches the false doctrine of the un-dying Christ.
---David8318 on 1/11/15


PART 2

Scott continues to bowdlerise Origen.

"We've always held God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning...Let him who assigns a beginning to God's Word or Wisdom, take care he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself...And that you may understand the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same...no one ought to be offended, seeing God is Father, the Saviour's also God, so also, since the Father's called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended the Son of God's also called omnipotent."

Trinitarianism was held by the Church from the beginning, well before Arianism breathed its foul stench in.
---Marc on 1/11/15


PART 1

Origen in De Principiis, actually clarifies Scott's predictably dishonest snip-snip: "The first-born is not by nature a different person from Wisdom, but one and the same...And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but - what cannot be said of God without impiety - was unwilling to use it, both of which suppositions, it is patent to all, are alike absurd and impious".
---Marc on 1/11/15


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'Did Jesus... create the invisible DNA code'- Marc

If Jesus is the creator of "all things", did Christ create and anoint himself (v16)? Did Christ come before God (v17)? Does Christ need to be reconciled to God (v20)? These are questions Marc, aservant and Samuelbb7 who believe Jesus is creator are unable to answer.

As for the creation of DNA, we only have to go back to the Bible for the answer.

"because by means of him (Jesus, the firstborn of all creation, v15) all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth... All other things have been created through him and for him"- Col.1:15,16.

This obviously includes DNA. Have you got it yet!?
---David8318 on 1/11/15


No sight of 'other'- Marc.

Robert Bowman, a rabid trinitarian and critic of using 'other' at Col.1:15,16 stated, "It is, of course, legitimate for translators to add the word "other" where this does not change the meaning but simply makes for smoother English"

His and Marc's disagreement with the use of 'other' at Col.1:15,16 is obviously based on belief in the pagan trinity rather than legitimate translation reasons.

Questions remain unanswered by trinitarians Marc et al who say 'all things' at Col.1: did Christ create and anoint himself (v16)? Did Christ come before God (v17)? Does Christ need to be reconciled to God (v20)? If Jesus is Jehovah, who is the one creating 'through' Jesus?
---David8318 on 1/11/15


Satan promotes urges, causes cravings, and drives impuses to disobey God in these areas: adultery, fornication, perversion, promiscuity, idolatry, drug use, hatred, rivalry, jealousy, angry outbursts, selfish ambition, conflict, factions, envy, drunkenness, wild partying, and a lack of faith in God.

When you see these attributes in the bloggers or the devil religions they represent, do not be deceived re who they serve, or about their true mission, to get you to trust your human conclusions and mistrust God. They are lost and want you to be lost with them.

Trust what God says. He has no reason to lie. Men lie because of fear or gain. What does God fear or need from men.
---aservant on 1/10/15


\\ David argued Jesus did not create the actual heavens and earth, God did that by himself.\\

JEsus is God Incarnate.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/10/15


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Christ- created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22-

Cyprian-


"That Christ is the Firstborn, and that He is the Wisdom of God by whom all things were made. In Solomon, in the Proverbs: "Lord established me in the beginning of His ways, into His works: before the world He founded me. In the beginning, before He made the earth...the Lord Begot me..."Also Paul to Colossians: "Who Is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature..." That He also is both the wisdom and the power of God, Paul proves in his first Epistle to the Corinthians...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [1 Cor. 1:24]"

The Treatises of Cyprian, Second Book, Vol V, pages 515-6.
---scott on 1/10/15


1. David argued Jesus did not create the actual heavens and earth, God did that by himself.

Interestingly, concerning the Son, "You at the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of your hands." (Hebrews 1:10)

Let me guess, David, that verse isn't really saying what it clearly states (thus contradicting your initial statement)?

I told you you should have swung that one by Brooklyn for approval.

2. I'm still waiting an answer: Did Jesus, a creature, an angel called Michael, create the invisible DNA code, really complex cellular machinery, respiration, photosynthesis, mitochondria...?
---Marc on 1/10/15


'through = By way of, via'- aservant.

Completely agree. After creating Jesus, Jehovah created "all other things" by way of or via Jesus. Just another roundabout way of saying 'through'.

In an attempt to re-prove the trinitarian "Jesus is Jehovah" falsehood, you rely on the infamous and spurious trinitarian interpolation at 1 John 5:7, which has no credibility among serious unbiased Bible scholars.

If your spurious 1Jo.5:7 verse is true, and your "Jesus is Jehovah" belief is correct, the question still remains: Who is creating through (or by way of/via) Jesus?
---David8318 on 1/10/15


'Jesus, a creature, an angel called Michael, created'- Marc.

I am aware how problematic it is for those wrapped up in the pagan trinity to be transfixed with the idea that Jesus is the creator.

Jehovah directly created his son Jesus, who as Col.1:15 states is the 'firstborn of all creation'. Being an important part of creation (the 'only begotten' son), Jehovah created "all other things", "by means of", "through", or as aservant wants to say, "by way of", or "via"- Col.1:15-20.

If Jesus is the creator of "all things", did Christ create and anoint himself (v16)? Did Christ come before God (v17)? Does Christ need to be reconciled to God (v20)?
---David8318 on 1/10/15


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'all things have been created through Him and for Him'- Samuelbb7.

The question still remains unanswered by you Samuelbb7: If you believe Jesus is "God", as you say, who is the one creating "through" Jesus?

How can you say 'trinity' is based on scripture when trinity is not even found in the Bible and was never spoken of by Jesus Christ!?
---David8318 on 1/10/15


Christ as the created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22-

Origen-


"There are certain creatures rational and divine, which are called powers, and of these [creatures] Christ was the highest and best and is called not only, the wisdom of God but also His power."

John, Book I, chapter 42, ANF, pp. 321-2.


Tertullian-

"The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person under the name of Wisdom: "The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works, before all the hills, did He beget me."

Against Praxeas, chapter VII, ibid. Volume III, p. 602.
---scott on 1/10/15


Christ as the created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22-

Origen-


"We have first to ascertain what the first begotten Son of God is, seeing He is called by many different names, according to the circumstances and views of individuals. For He is termed Wisdom, according to the expression of Solomon: The Lord created me - the beginning of His ways, and among His works, before He made any other thing He formed me before the ages. In the beginning, before He formed the earth, before He brought forth the fountains of water...He brought me forth....He is styled First-born, as the apostle has declared: is the first-born of every creature..." (e.a.)

De Principiis, Book I, chapter II, Vol. V, p. 246.
---scott on 1/9/15


'I'm happy you mentioned context'

It's what you usually ignore, as you do the context of Luke 13:2 which many translators agree demands the qualifier "other" is used. If 'ta panta' can be translated "all other" at Lu.13:2, it's good for Col.1:16. Your ignorant silence speaks volumes!

The context of Colossians 1:16 proves Jesus' creation. God has never been flesh and blood (Hosea 11:9), God is a spirit (Jo.4:24). Forgiveness is mediated between God and man, a man- Jesus Christ our high priest (1Tim.2:5). God is not mediator to himself! Jesus is the image of God... not the God. You obviously don't understand what reconciliation means!

Its not circular reasoning. Jesus as firstborn is a statement of fact!
---David8318 on 1/10/15


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"...the Son of God ... 'the firstborn of all creation, a THING CREATED, wisdom,'..." Origen, De. Prin. 4.4.1.

Try as I might, I could not find this in any of Origen's work, Scott.

However, I did find it in three pro-JW sites. Does that mean anything? Probably.

Now, also note the ellipses. I wonder what important words have been left out. I betcha they don't change the meaning of the sentences. After all, Jehovah's Witnesses are God's chosen prophets and would never cheat and lie, would they Scott?
---Marc on 1/10/15


PART 2

Trawling, but never checking accuracy, cut-and-paste JW Scott has serially proved an untrustworthy quoter.

"How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father, for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence, while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages." (Origen De Principiis Bk IV)
---Marc on 1/9/15


Scott, rather than going to primary sources, prefers to cut-and-paste his heresy from unchecked JW-favourable sites. Unscholarly and reprehensibly dishonest. Here's what Origen really believed.

"Jesus Christ came (into the world), was born [i.e. not created] of the Father before all creatures, after He had been the servant of the Father in the creation of all things - "For by Him were all things made" - He in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was." (De principiis: Praefatio)
---Marc on 1/9/15


Christ as the created "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8:22-

OT, John, Justin, etc.The Jerusalem Bible informs us:

"The doctrine of wisdom, thus outlined in the O.T. will be resumed in the N.T. which will give it new and decisive completion by applying it to the person of Christ. Jesus is referred to as Wisdom itself, the Wisdom of God, Mt. 11:19, Lk. 11:49, cf. Mt 23:34-36: like Wisdom, he participates in the creation of the world, Col 1:16-17, and the protection of Israel, I Co. 10:4, cf. Ws 10:17. Finally St. John...represents Christ as he Wisdom of God, cf. Jn. 6:35. Hence, Christian tradition from St. Justin onwards sees in the Wisdom of the O[ld].T[estament]. the person of Christ himself."
---scott on 1/9/15


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Marc's ignorance of context. Consider Col.1:20.

'and through him to reconcile to himself all things' (NIV).

Does this mean absolutely everything in the universe is out of harmony with God? That through Jesus absolutely everything in the universe needs to be reconciled to God? For example, do obedient angels need to be reconciled with God?

No. Only those who are out of harmony with God will be reconciled to God. But the point is the term 'all things' does not totally refer to absolutely everything in the universe, since not all things in the universe are out of harmony with God so that they would need to be reconciled.

'and through him to reconcile again to himself all other [ta panta] things ' (NWT).
---David8318 on 1/9/15


PART 1

Cut-and-paste JW Scott has serially proved an untrustworthy quoter of persons.

Origen wrote, "For we don't say, as the [Watchtower] heretics suppose the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent so there was a time when He did not exist, we say the Word and Wisdom was begotten from the invisible and incorporeal. John indicates God is Light, Paul declares the Son is the splendour of everlasting light. As light, accordingly, could never exist without splendour, so neither can the Son be understood to exist without the Father, for He is called the express image of His person, and the Word and Wisdom." (De Principiis Bk IV)
---Marc on 1/9/15


David wrote: "All other things" are created IN and ON an already existing heaven and earth!"

Did you swing that one by Brooklyn for your head honcho's approval?

So, let me get this straight: Jesus, a creature, an angel called Michael, created the invisible DNA code, really complex cellular machinery, respiration, photosynthesis, mitochondria..

Right, I've got that now.

BTW, if it's so easy to understand, how come only a few million (JW) people get it? Of course, how silly of me: you and only you are God's mouthpiece.
---Marc on 1/9/15


'Unless you're a piece of broccoli, it's easy to understand that Jesus created the whole universe'

Marc is a piece of broccoli. Colossians 1:15,16 does not say Jesus crated the universe.

Colossians 1:16 is grossly misquoted by Marc and given the usual trinitarian spin.

"...because by means of him (Jesus) all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth." (NWT, also ASV,KJV,NIV,etc...)

Genesis 2:4 already tells us it is Jehovah who created the heavens and earth. The obvious statement at Colossians 1:16 evades the broccoli. "All other things" are created IN and ON an already existing heaven and earth!

Jesus did not create the universe.
---David8318 on 1/9/15


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Origen of Alexandria (182-254 AD) -

"...the Son of God ... 'the firstborn of all creation, a THING CREATED, wisdom,'..." Origen, De. Prin. 4.4.1, translation by Jaroslav Pelikan. (See Christian Tradition, Vol. 1, p. 191)

"...Thus says the Lord of powers, [A.V. hosts] we frequently read, there are certain CREATURES, rational and divine, which are called powers: and (OF) THESE Christ was the highest and best, and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power...." (Commentary on John Book I Chapter 42.)

[calls the Son] "the oldest of all created beings." (Commentary i, 111-115[118], in John)
---scott on 1/9/15


"What's God plan for the glorification of His son on the earth?"
On Earth, He shall sit on the throne of his father David as King of kings. Luk 1:32>Act 2:30
---josef on 1/9/15


NASB Col 1:14-17

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

It is best to look at the entire passage and not just look at one word and try to change the meaning of the whole passage. Which the Witnesses have to do to change the meaning and what the passage says.

Jesus is GOD. The Trinity is based on scripture.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/9/15


David,

Non-trinitarian Thayer wrote "with the article ta panta, in an absolute sense, all things collectively, the totality of created things, the universe of things: Colossians 1:16."

No sight of 'other', David. Your Watchtowerism adds this adjective to Paul's letter.

I'm happy you mentioned context. Colossians 1:16 has a detailed one: Jesus, has a kingdom, redeems us through his blood, forgiveness obtained is through him, is the image of God, by his existence holds all of the universe together, has all of God's fullness, reconciles all to God. And this Jesus of yours is a created angel?

"It is obvious that the firstborn was created before the 'all'". Circular reasoning. Prove it!
---Marc on 1/8/15


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Scott,

Apart from excising passages of Tertullian from its CONTEXT, are you trying to deceive people into believing Tertullian wasn't a Trinitarian or trying to, in typical JW fashion, distract people from the fact that I demonstrated that your fellow deceiver, David, was wrong, that there were leading Christians well before Nicea who were Trinitarians?

While we're on the subject, how about providing a few names of people from before Tertullian who believed in the JW theology and who weren't relegated to the heretical trashbin of history, like the Watchtower, God's only appointed mouthpiece on earth?
---Marc on 1/8/15


"Tertullian"- Marc

Against Hermogenes (b)

Continued:

"...how much more impossible is it that anything should have been without a beginning which was extrinsic to the Lord! But if this same Wisdom is the Word of God, in the capacity of Wisdom, and (as being He) without whom nothing was made, just as also (nothing) was set in order without Wisdom, how can it be that anything, except the Father, should be older, and on this account indeed nobler, than the Son of God, the only-begotten and the first-begotten Word?"

Here Tertulian references Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD brought me forth [created me- RSV] as the first of his works, before his deeds of old..." NIV
---scott on 1/8/15


Col 1:16

through = By way of, via

"If you believe Jesus is Jehovah, who is the one creating "through" Jesus?"


Jehovah = self-existent One

The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all Jehovah.

1Jn 5:7 . . . the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
---aservant on 1/8/15


"Tertullian"- Marc

Against Hermogenes (a)

"Indeed, as soon as He [God] perceived It to be necessary for His creation of the world, He immediately creates It, and generates It in Himself...Let Hermogenes then confess that the very Wisdom of God is declared to be born and created, for the especial reason that we should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated. For if that, which from its being inherent in the Lord was of Him and in Him, was yet not without a beginning, - - I mean His wisdom, which was then born and created, when in the thought of God It began to assume motion for the arrangement of His creative works..."

Continued
---scott on 1/8/15


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Nice try, Scott.

Your ripped apart, isolated quote was from Tertullian's response to a Modalist. One surgically-removed sentence doesn't make a theological summer. Tertullian, with some complexity, was looking at the relationship within the Godhead before and at creation.

Tertullian clearly was Trinitarian (he did coin the phrase) and your dishonest removal of the sentence from the context is not unexpected (you take your orders from Brooklyn after all!). He unambiguously confirmed Christ's full deity, for Tertullian also wrote, "Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled...that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one." (The Apology)
---Marc on 1/8/15


'the word 'other'... does not appear in the Greek'

This is a dumbed down trinitarian understanding of 'ta panta'.

The word 'other' is used quite rightly according to context as a qualifier. Other translations also at times use the word 'other' in translating various forms of the word 'panta'.

One example: '...these Galileans were greater sinners than all other [panta] Galileans'- Luke 13:2 (NIV,NAS,NKJV,RSV,Tyndale).

As in Luke 13:2, the word 'other' is used at Col.1:16 to qualify what is being said in view of the context. Such a qualifier is needed since it is obvious from the context that the firstborn was created before the 'all' being spoken of.

Marc is dumber than 'all other' trinitarians.
---David8318 on 1/8/15


David,

En, the Greek preposition found in Colossians 1:16 can have a few meanings: in, by. The preposition is relatively insignificant because the verb that governs the clause, ektistho (to be created), communicates the sense of the whole sentence. That is, as even your warped NWT states, "BECAUSE IN [Jesus] was created the all in the heavens and upon the earth." Unless you're a piece of broccoli, it's easy to understand that Jesus created the whole universe. See that little word there, yes that one, "to be created", you know, i.e. CREATE!!!!

Got it yet?!!! Regardless of whether you pay someone to do it or you do it yourself, someone creates a building. Ditto Jesus, for he CREATED the universe.
---Marc on 1/8/15


'So Jesus is Jehovah'- Samuelbb7.

"all things have been created through Him" (Jesus)- Colossians 1:16 (ASV, Holman, NAS, NRS, RSV, Youngs).

If you believe Jesus is Jehovah, who is the one creating "through" Jesus?
---David8318 on 1/8/15


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David wrote, "The Bible reveals Jesus is the only begotten son meaning "all other things" (Gr. 'ta panta') were created by Jehovah "through" Jesus Christ- Col.1:16."

David deliberately distorts the Greek and inserts the word 'other' into the translation when it does not appear in the Greek. There are words for 'other' in Greek, and despite Paul's decision not to, David and the other JW liars, have decided Paul was not sufficiently accurate and so insert 'other' into the English text, thus changing its meaning according to their Arian, Johnny-come-lately theology: "We at Brooklyn are just fixing up a few of Paul's oversights, just to smooth over his Greek."
---Marc on 1/8/15


'Ya [sic] sure?!'- Marc.

As expected, Marc is unable to show where his delusional claim "Jesus is the universe's creator" is taught by JW's or the Bible.

'This is a history of the heavens and the earth... Jehovah God (YHWH) made earth and heaven'- Gen 2:4 (NWT).

Thus despite Marc's misrepresentation JW's teach (as does the Bible) Jehovah God is the creator and the one who created the universe.

The Bible reveals Jesus is the only begotten son meaning "all other things" (Gr. 'ta panta') were created by Jehovah "through" Jesus Christ- Col.1:16.

'This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him (Jesus)'- Jo.1:2,3.
---David8318 on 1/8/15


"Tertullian" - Marc

"...He [God] has not always been Father and Judge, merely on the ground of His having always been God. For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a Judge previous to sin. There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son, the former of which was to constitute the Lord a Judge, and the latter a Father."

Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, trans. Peter Holmes, in Latin Christianity: Its Founder Tertullian, vol. 3, The Anti-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), chap. 3.
---scott on 1/8/15


So the Early church taught the Trinity.

The Bible also teaches that Jehovah created the universe.

Isa 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

So Jesus is Jehovah.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/8/15


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David asks, "[Can] Marc tell us where God appointed a group [before] 325AD who taught the trinity?"

1.David delusionally believes the Watchtower's God's only agent on earth. He also avoids naming any group pre-1870 holding to his crazy belief. Why? Because there weren't any.

2.The group? It's called "the Church though dispersed throughout the whole world...in order that to Christ Jesus, our God..." (Irenaeus (115-190) Against Heresies) (He listened to Polycarp, John's disciple.)

3."We define there are the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (Tertullian (160-215))
---Marc on 1/8/15


"Michael..." Marc

Can someone please explain to Marc the simple process of starting a new blog (thread) on CN rather than highjacking, yet another one, to vent his anti-JW rhetoric?

Thanks.
---scott on 1/8/15


David wrote: "Who say's[sic] Jesus as a created angel created the universe? I haven't and the Bible either."

Ya sure?!

"Reasonably then, the archangel Michael's Jesus Christ." (Reasoning From Scriptures, 1985)

"Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he's Jehovah's archangel." (WT 2/1/71)

"By means of [Jesus] all other[sic] things were created in the heavens and upon earth, things visible and invisible. All other[sic] things have been created through him and by means of him all other [sic] things were made to exist." (NWT Colossians 1)

"All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (NWT John 1:3)
---Marc on 1/7/15


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