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"ECCLESIASTICAL ORDER...[dividing] the Christian world"- Marc

You decide what, if any, "point" Marc makes with this. Here's the rest:

"The epistles ascribed to Ignatius have given rise to more controversy than any other documents connected with the primitive church...and a strong temptation has thus been felt to allow some amount of prepossession to enter into the-discussion of their authenticity or spuriousness...But although the shorter form of the Ignatian letters had been generally accepted in preference to the longer, there was still a pretty prevalent opinion among scholars, that even it could not be regarded as absolutely free from interpolations, or as of undoubted authenticity."
---scott on 2/5/15


Warwick, Morenz states the trinity has "direct links" with pagan Egypt. If you interpret that to mean a 'pagan import' then yes I'll go with that. At least you now acknowledge that Morenz does link your trinity dogma with paganism. How does it feel Warwick, knowing that your unscriptural trinity is directly linked with paganism? Must be a heavy burden to carry!

Your abuse of Matt.28:19 is seen in that it does not mention "3 in 1". However, Morenz writes "Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular". You just need to accept the fact that the evidence uncovered by Morenz shows your '3 in 1' trinity is not Biblical, but pagan in origin. Deal with it Warwick!
---David8318 on 2/5/15


"Everyone, Here's a really interesting exercise."

Let's see how quickly Marc back-peddles or wildly spins some excuse when he realizes that, in his blind rage against all things JW, he is...once again incorrect.

On the official website (and BTW thanks for directing individuals to a great site packed with a wealth of biblical information) named: JW dought cyborg (without the cyb =)

Bottom left hand corner of the home page go to "Read or Download" > "More" > "Online Library".

The WT Online library, linked from the official website, contains several references to Papias, Polycarp and Ignatius.

The "Interesting exercise" will be to see if Marc apologizes.
---scott on 2/5/15


David, either by ignorance or intent to deceive you part quoted Morenz forcing him so say the Christian Trinity is not Biblical, but a pagan import. But Morenz goes on to say the Trinity is Biblical "Father,Son and Holy Ghost." You have Morenz confusedly saying the Trinity is at the same time both pagan and Christian. But the confusion is yours and you are left with your own witness confirming Matthew 28:19 refers to the Trinity. As he quotes Matthew, he, in using "link", is obviously not equating the Egyptian pagan 3 Gods with the 3 in 1 Christian Trinity. That you cannot comprehend God is 3 in 1 is not grounds for dismissing what Scripture says. Seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit.
---Warwick on 2/4/15


At least Warwick is posting on the correct blog... revealing how he constantly abuses the scriptures.

Warwick on 2/3/15: "Jesus says the Holy Spirit is God"- where does Jesus say the holy spirit is "God"? Chapter and verse please!

I'll cut to the chase. Jesus never said the holy spirit is "God". Warwick is abusing the scriptures with his false pagan trinity dogma. But I'll be kind to Warwick and put the blame on the demonic voices in his head derived from his Christian & Missionary Alliance occult practices that tell him to write these trinitarian lies. Warwick can't help it!
---David8318 on 2/5/15




Hello Sam.

Depends on your understanding of what being "born again" means? What do you think it means to be "born again"?

Those who are born again will agree with Peter when he wrote:

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"- 1Pe.1:3 (NIV).
---David8318 on 2/4/15


"The specific word Trinity"- Mark_Eaton

Nope. Never said or asked that.

I asked if there was a scriptural statement that refers to the Trinity, a three-person-in one God.

Do you think it curious that there isn't one?


"Jehovah is never specifically named." Mark_Eaton

Actually the divine name YHWH that is generally translated as Jehovah or Yahweh, etc., appears almost 7,000 (yes thousand) times in the Hebrew scriptures. Were you aware of that Mark?
---scott on 2/4/15


'How many of these have you actually read, David?'- Cluny.

Enough to know that you cannot quote where your Platonizing church "fathers" claim the holy spirit is "God".

You can't because the decision to make the holy spirit the 3rd "God" of the pagan trinity didn't happen until 381AD, by which time most of your church "fathers" were dead.
---David8318 on 2/4/15


Everyone,

Here's a really interesting exercise.

Go to the official JW website and put in their search engine Papias, Polycarp and Ignatius.

Result? Zero entries.

Seems like God's only organisation doesn't really want anyone to know about the first group of Christian theologians. Why would that be?

But put in Plato and voila! Plenty!
---Marc on 2/4/15


Mark Eaton, Get out your old KJV and look up Psl.110.1 Notice it says "The LORD said unto my Lord..."
First (lord)in upper case ,2nd (lord) in lower case !

Elohim said to Adonai!
This is not some one talking to himself !
---1stcliff on 2/4/15




I've asked you is whether there is a verse in God's word that mentions or describes a Trinity?
---scott on 2/4/15

Oh, I get it. You want to see the specific word Trinity, not the meaning of the word or the concepts that make up the tri-unity of God.

Yep, you got me on that. There is no word trinity in the Bible.

However, this is similar to asking to see where it says Jesus is the Son of Jehovah. Jehovah is never specifically named. Instead Jehovah is referred to as God, God the Father, Father in Heaven, Most High, Lord God, or the Lord.

Yet all of us Bible readers make the connection.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/4/15


'The three are mentioned alongside one another'- Warwick.

3 persons mentioned together make them one and the same? Jesus' words at Matt.28:19, written circa 41AD:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (NIV).

Trinitarian mantra promulgated from 381AD, and as re-stated in the Athanasian Creed circa 6/7th Century:

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Spot the difference? Matthew 28:19 does not support the trinitarian creed! Matt.28:19 does not identify Jesus or the holy spirit as "God". Only special pleading by trinitarian apologists will say otherwise!
---David8318 on 2/4/15


PART 1 - IGNATIUS

I'll save Dishonest Scott the embarrassment by replacing his Ignatius Anti-Nicene quote's first ellipsis with the omitted section myself: "they contain numerous statements which bear on points of ECCLESIASTICAL ORDER that have long divided the Christian world".

As predicted, for any JW (mis)quote, the important words are discarded and it always pays to read the original.

The book's introduction Scott picked from was written in 1885, not long after MSS discoveries were unveiled and passionately discussed. Scott's fondness for reducing scholarly debate to a churlish JW partisan level says more about him than the topic itself.
---Marc on 2/4/15


Warwick, I've never said Morenz denied the trinity!

Do you deny Morenz wrote: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians... Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology". Yes or no?

You continue to be ignorant of the fact Morenz did not provide Biblical evidence the substance of the trinity is Biblical. He does however provide abundant credible evidence the trinity has 'direct links' with pagan Egypt.

P.s. I'm still waiting for you to answer whether God speaks directly to you and why the true identity of the holy spirit wasn't revealed until 381AD!?
---David8318 on 2/4/15


David, it was you who introduced Morenz asthough he believed the Trinity was not Biblical, but an import from Egypt. JWs are infamous for deceitfully misquoting to the extent there are sites which compare the original to the JW deceit. Your Morenz says "we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament..."

The question is David: do you deny that Morenz has written this? Yes or no?

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding, which have eyes, and see not, which have ears, and hear not.

Ps still waiting for proof the WTS was God appointed.
---Warwick on 2/4/15


'we all notice you cannot answer questions'- Warwick.

And you do answer questions do you Warwick? I and others have been asking of you for an explanation as to whether God speaks directly to you either audibly or in the head. Your founder and other cult C & MA activists have been variously reported claiming God speaks to them by indulging in mystic occult "God journaling" practices.

Why are you banging on about the WTS when you claim God is speaking directly to you? What evidence do you have that its God's voice you're hearing? I'll answer your questions when you decide to let us all know why God didn't reveal the truth about the holy spirit until 381AD!
---David8318 on 2/4/15


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Mark Eaton , Gen 1.1 reads "In the beginning God created..."
Why is it not translated "Gods created"? since Elohim (plural) is written.
---1stcliff on 2/4/15


"No I do not agree."- Mark_Eaton

I have not ignored anything. Again, with respect, what I've asked you is whether there is a verse in God's word that mentions or describes a Trinity?

Do you see that the verse(s) that you have posted and would like to discuss (and I'm happy to oblige for what my 2 shekels are worth) only refer to one person...possibly 2?

Do you see that (to begin with) there is no verse that can be offered that describes or mentions a three-person/one God Trinity...anywhere?
---scott on 2/4/15


So....do you agree that there is no inspired scripture that refers to the Trinity?
---scott on 2/3/15

No I do not agree.

I have offered a Scripture to begin discussing the Trinity. You have ignored it.

Jesus spoke with authority about His father, authority no one has ever had or will ever have. Why is that? How could the son of Joseph the carpenter have such knowledge of His Father in Heaven? Did not Jesus say in Luke 10:22 that only He knows who the Father is? Therefore, our knowledge of the Father must start with what Jesus says. We cannot know who the Father is by ignoring or disputing what Jesus has said.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/4/15


Hello David.

Have you been Born Again?

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/4/15


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David, we all notice you cannot answer questions.

You say there is no evidence the church fathers were God appointed. The Watchtower says the WTS was "God appointed."

Give proof that this is so.

You say there is no Scriptural sign of the Trinity however Morenz, your discarded favourite says "we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament..." Matt 28:19. He does, doesn't he?

Jesus says the Holy Spirit is God, and Scripture shows Jesus is God. However you reject any Scripture which disagrees with your cultic beliefs.
---Warwick on 2/3/15


\\An inconvenient truth for Marc is that none of his Platonizing church "fathers" make any reference to the Marc-Warwick trinitarian mantra "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"!\\

How many of these have you actually read, David?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/15


I met a "Christian Zionist" the other day on my ministry and I asked him to show me where prior to 381AD did any one or any organisation speak of the holy spirit as "God", or articulate the trinity as is known today- ie "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit".

The "Christian Zionists" answer: SILENCE.

Apparnetly (laughably) thats what is called Argument from Silence.

Even Marc on this site, to date with all his growling smoke & bluster impotently cannot in any of his posts provide any evidence the trinity as is taught today was taught prior to 381AD.

Noboby, not even any of the Bible writers remotely suggested the HS was "God" let alone taught a trinity!
---David8318 on 2/4/15


'Morenz is your antiTrinitarian witness'- Warwick.

I never said Morenz is 'anti-trinitarian'. Far from it. Morenz is all over the trinity like a rash. What you fail to realise is that Morenz did not provide any evidence to support his claim the 'substance' of the trinity was Biblical. He couldn't because the trinity is un-Biblical. However, Professor Morenz as an Egyptologist provides ample evidence of Christendoms trinity having 'direct links' with pagan Egypt. Go where the evidence leads you Warwick!

By the way, Matt.28:19 does not promote your un-Biblical trinitarian mantra 'God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. Be a good lad and ask the voices in your head why God didn't tell us until 381AD the true identity of the spirit?
---David8318 on 2/4/15


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'this inconvenience'

An inconvenient truth for Marc is that none of his Platonizing church "fathers" make any reference to the Marc-Warwick trinitarian mantra "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"!

Without doubt, Marc's Platonizing apostate "fathers" wanted a trinity to titilate their lust for everything Hellenic. But not until 381AD could they pleasure themselves now that they had belatedly deified the holy spirit.

Predictably, Marc is left to hide behind rabid trinitarian John Kelly who himself cannot find Ignatius making any comment about the holy spirit being "God". Who prior to 381AD taught the trinity as is known today?
---David8318 on 2/3/15


"Let us begin discussing"-Mark_Eaton

So....do you agree that there is no inspired scripture that refers to the Trinity? (Either three-persons-in-one, "three persons in a RELATIONSHIP so close it must be described as ONE, or Oneness," or Perichoresis and that all of this language already has you outside the pages of God's Word?

Let's begin there...at the beginning.
---scott on 2/3/15


David: "As predicted [blah, blah, blah]"

No, David, that's called post-prediction backfill.

BTW, your "prediction", is that similar to JW 'end of the world' type "predictions" you guys, serving as God's only prophetic people on earth, made about...hmmm, let me recall...was it 1876, 1914, 1925, 1975? Oh, I'm spoilt for choice. Your failed, miserably pathetic prophecies are, well, endless.

And then the avalanche of special pleading, specious 'We-really-didn't-mean-end-of-world-end-of-world' prophecies. After all, we're God's only prophetic mouthpiece and as God's only prophetic mouthpiece we can't be wrong.

No, of course you can't, David. Others may jeer and be incredulous but I won't.
---Marc on 2/3/15


Ignatius- Marc

"The epistles ascribed to Ignatius have given rise to more controversy than any other documents connected with the primitive church...and a strong temptation has thus been felt to allow some amount of prepossession to enter into the-discussion of their authenticity or spuriousness...But although the shorter form [recension] of the Ignatian letters had been generally accepted in preference to the longer, there was still a pretty prevalent opinion among scholars, that even it could not be regarded as absolutely free from interpolations, or as of undoubted authenticity." -

Ignatius, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Editors.
---scott on 2/3/15


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'between AD 100 and 200', there was not a single person who confessed the Marc-Warwick theology of 'God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'.

As predicted, Marc cannot show where his Platonizing church "fathers" articulate the triune theology in the same way he and Warwick do- 'God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'.

Why is Marc scripturally and intelectually impotent in the trinity dogma department in the years 100-200AD? Its because the holy spirit was not part of the triune god-head until the spirit was formally adopted as "God" in 381AD.

I can't imagine for one moment God is as impotent as Marc to forget to tell us the true identity of the spirit until 381AD!
---David8318 on 2/3/15


Gen.1.26, Let "us" make man...this is the same as "we" in "WE are not amused" the plural of majesty. us does not necessarily mean two !
---1stcliff on 2/3/15

I cannot agree. The Hebrew word for God in Genesis 1:26 is Elohim and is the plural form of El or God.

The plural noun Elohim is also referred to in the same verse with the plural pronouns "us" as in "let us" and "our" as in "make man in our image" and "according to Our likeness. The Hebrew word for "let us" in Genesis 1:26 is translated in the same way in twelve other Biblical passages.

If the noun God was truly singular, then singular pronouns would have been used.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/15


Marc, Between 70 and 300 AD (or CE) there were no Christian "organizations" Christians were hiding underground just trying to keep from being taken to the arenas to be killed by animals and other blood sports for the entertainment of the Romans !
God did not intervene in this slaughter of Christians for 300 years . And then it was pagan Constantine that ended it ! Why? who knows !
---1stcliff on 2/3/15


David's thought bubble: "prior to 381AD none of God's people expressed a triune God in the way Marc-Warwick do today."

"The triadic formula occurs thrice at least in [Ignatius's] letters...Ignatius even declares that [Christ] is 'our God', describing Him as 'God incarnate' and 'God made manifest a man...In His pre-existent being 'ingenerate' (the technical term reserved to distinguish the increate God from creatures)." (Kelly, Early Christian Doctrine, p. 92.)

Ignatius AD 35-108.

David's latest thought bubble: "Marc, Warwick, facts, facts, facts: that's all you ever want to throw at me. Looks like I have to...(sigh)...once again, divert people's attention from this inconvenience."
---Marc on 2/3/15


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Scott: "Warwick and Marc, since there is no statement in God's word regarding a Trinity, are forced to look outside the inspired text to find support for the teaching."

David and Scott, since there is no statement in God's Word regarding Jesus as a creature who created all things, are forced to look outside the inspired text to find support for the teaching."

So, how and when did God appoint the JWs as his sole organisation?

Yesterday, I asked 2 JWs name any organisation between AD 100 and 200 holding JW theology. Silence. Then: "There were but Trinitarians killed them."
"Evidence?"
Again, SILENCE.

Gentlemen, that's what we trained philosophers call an Argument from Silence.
---Marc on 2/3/15


The point which escapes you David it that Morenz is your antiTrinitarian witness who in reality contradicts you! You get into these messes because you cut and paste from unreliable Jehovah's Witless sites, not from original sources.

It is fact which you cannot deny that Morenz says "we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost." This means what it says, that the Christian Trinity is Biblical.

You say there is no evidence that the church fathers were God appointed. The Watchtower says the WTS was "God appointed." Please give proof that this is so.

Father Son and Holy Spirit in the NT? See Matt 28:19
---Warwick on 2/3/15


Mark Eaton,
Gen.1.26, Let "us" make man...this is the same as "we" in "WE are not amused" the plural of majesty. us does not necessarily mean two !
Jn.10.30 I and the Father are one. Scripture says my wife and I are "one flesh" (you can't get any closer than that)
Jn.15.9 He who has seen me has seen the Father: Scripture says No one has ever seen God. In fact you cannot see God and live !
---1stcliff on 2/3/15


And which Church council penned it?......even after you've rejected the standard trinitarian definition.
---scott on 2/3/15

Fascinating. Why do you refer to councils and definitions when you summarily reject them all?

Perichoresis is the term I am referring to. And yes, my definition is a paraphrase. The works of Karl Barth, TF Torrance, C. Baxter Kruger, and others outline the union and relationship of the Triune God.

Let us begin discussing:

John 10:38 "but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/15


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"The correct description is three persons in a RELATIONSHIP so close it must be described as ONE, or Oneness." Mark_Eaton

That's an interesting definition. And which Church council penned it?

It's fascinating, and with all due respect, none of the verses that you cite refer to the definition that you've provided...even after you've rejected the standard trinitarian definition.

I'm happy to discuss each of the verses that you have provided...time allowing but please, if possible, provide one verse that describes a three-in one God or even a "three persons in a RELATIONSHIP so close it must be described as ONE, or Oneness."

And if no such verse(s) exist...why?
---scott on 2/3/15


Scripture establish the Trinity. They do not use the word.

John 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


John 10:30

I and my Father are one.

Jesus is the Creator and savior and so is GOD.


Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Luke 1:47

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Luke 2:11

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/3/15


'why does he [Morenz] then add that its substance [the trinity] is Biblical?- Warwick.

Obviously Morenz like yourself are wrong in believing "the trinity" is Biblical. There is no evidence the trinity is Biblical, but every reason to believe the trinity has "direct links" with pagan Egyptian trinities of which there is abundant evidence.

Merely saying the trinity is Biblical doesn't make it Biblical. If the trinity is Biblical, show me where "trinity" appears in the Bible? Or just 'God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' will do! Morenz gives clear evidence Christendoms trinity has 'direct links' with pagan Egypt. But no evidence to support his or your belief the "trinity" is Biblical.
---David8318 on 2/3/15


\One of the biggest offenders is Alcoholics Anonymous.
---learner2 on 1/30/15\\

Can you elaborate, please?
---Cluny on 1/31/15

Wish he would have.
I've attended meetings with my Dad who got drunk and wrecked the family car.
I was struck by the admissions of the group. They confessed as a group they had a problem first. Biblically and spiritually at the bottom, broken. Seeking guidance with GOD's help.
Isa_61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek, he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound,

I'd go to any AA meeting again, with anyone.
---Trav on 2/3/15


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What scripture describes a three-person-in-one Trinity?
---scott on 2/3/15

First, I reject your language. The correct description is three persons in a RELATIONSHIP so close it must be described as ONE, or Oneness.

I will start. Everyone else can help out.

Gen 1:26 Let Us make man...
John 10:30 I and the Father are one
John 10:38 the Father is in Me, and I in the Father
Luke 10:22 no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God
Phil 2:6 ...He existed in the form of God
Heb 1:3 ...the exact representation of His nature
John 15:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/15


'between AD 100 and 200...'

... there was not a single person who confessed the Marc-Warwick theology of 'God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. In fact, prior to 381AD none of God's people expressed a triune God in the way Marc-Warwick do today. Theirs is a replacement theology based on pagan myths.

No Bible writer spoke of a 'trinity'. One had to wait until after 180AD for Theophilus & Tertulian to coin the unBiblical expression 'trinitas' which Marc-Warwick hold so dear. They replace Bible theology with man-made words and ideology. By 180AD, the apostasy had begun- 2Thess.2:7,8.

Thus, Warwick has demonic voices in his head, and Marc promotes the polythieist view that Jesus and the Father are two creators!
---David8318 on 2/3/15


Trinity- Warwick, Marc

It's no surprise that Micha, Ruben and Cluny weigh in on this three-in-one Trinity discussion because it now seems to have morphed into an exchange about Tradition vs 'Sola Scriptura'. Our Catholic (and Orthodox) friends have commented on this many times before. Now Warwick and Marc, since there obviously is no statement in God's word regarding a Trinity, are forced to look outside the inspired text and toward Tradition and uninspired words of men to find support for the doctrine.

Out of necessity they must adopt the view that scripture alone is not critical in establishing fundamental doctrine.

If that's not true:

What scripture describes a three-person-in-one Trinity?
---scott on 2/3/15


Cluny Soul sleep refers to the dead sleeping until the Resurrection. Soul extinction is when the wicked are executed for their crimes in the lake of fire.

What is false is teaching a Greek/Roman immortal soul doctrine which the Bible opposes.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When you destroy something it no longer exists. Look up the meaning of the word in the Bible.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/3/15


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God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Spirit,..three gods able to act independently all in "ONE" spiritual body.... ---1stcliff on 2/3/15

They are one in RELATIONSHIP.

Please help me understand. You declare that Jesus is not God Almighty but is a created "being". If Jesus is not God Almighty, what exactly does this passage mean?

Phil 2:5-7 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men".
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/15


Trinity- Warwick, Marc

It's no surprise that Micha, Ruben and Cluny weigh in on this three-in-one Trinity discussion because it now seems to have morphed into an exchange about Tradition vs 'Sola Scriptura'. Our Catholic (and Orthodox) friends have commented on this many times before. Now Warwick and Marc, since there obviously is no statement in God's word regarding a Trinity, are forced to look outside the inspired text to find support for the teaching.

Out of necessity they must adopt the view that scripture alone, is not critical in establishing fundamental doctrine...otherwise they would have, long ago answered the question repeated ad nauseum:

What scripture describes a three-person-in-one Trinity?
---scott on 2/3/15


David, you flounder.

You part-quoted Morenz claiming "direct links" means it came from Egypt. But Morenz continues making it clear "we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost." If Morenz means the Trinity came into Christianity from Egypt why does he then add that its substance is Biblical?

You say there is no evidence the church fathers were God appointed. Relevantly the Watchtower 15 January 1995 p. 28 the WTS is called "his organization." Previous to that the WTS was called "God's channel, his organization" Watchtower 15 February 1983. Please give proof that the WTS was "God appointed."
---Warwick on 2/2/15


A false doctrine, such as soul sleep (properly soul extinction), is a false doctrine, regardless of who believed it.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/2/15


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Warwick, You, for one..God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Spirit,..three gods able to act independently all in "ONE" spiritual body....what do you call that Warwick?
Is that not a three headed god?
Or one god with multiple personalities ?
Baal had multiple personalities !
---1stcliff on 2/3/15


David's latest desperate bid to secure the ahistorical novel theology of Russellism plummets to a new low: "(i) Tyndale also believed in "soul-sleep". (ii) Had he lived, I just wonder how long it would have been before Tyndale exposed the trinity as false."

(i) So did Luther. Thus, by David's homuncular logic, that makes Luther a closet JW.

(ii) David's paralogical fact-free thought bubble is what we trained philosophers call an Argument from Silence (aka wishful thinking), not at all dissimilar to David's inability to concede there was a not a single person between AD 100 and 200 who confessed the JW theology.
---Marc on 2/2/15


spiritual abuse is like this website...only one sided answers - their side.
---mike on 2/2/15

Looking at some of your past posts.
I tend to be in agreement with you on state of the preachers and churches. They are the reason that Christian countries are floundering like fish stranded. I'll openly blame most preachers who cannot see or verify by scripture witnesses any connection to the Old Testament and the New.
I'm like David8318 statement...I don't need your ecumenical councils...or your blind preachers who avoid Christs statements and the prophets scripture witnesses supporting Christ. Falsely called, being imposters at worst, ignorant at best.
---Trav on 2/2/15


'Tyndale'

In addition to Tyndale identifying God's name and giving us the English rendering "Jehovah", Tyndale also believed in "soul-sleep" (that the soul does die at death- Eze.18:4) and a future "day of resurrection".

Tyndale also identified the Bible does not teach infant baptism. He also used words such as "congregation" instead of "church" and "elders" instead of "priests". All these teachings JW's accept today.

It's a shame apostate trinitarians caught Tyndale and put him to death so soon. Had he lived, I just wonder how long it would have been before Tyndale exposed the trinity as false.
---David8318 on 2/2/15


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Cliff, please provide a quote where someone (other than yourself) promotes a three-headed God.
---Warwick on 2/2/15


David: "Tyndale wanted the Bible to be read in English [which] conflicted with apostate trinitarian Christendom who hounded him all the way to Germany where he was betrayed, brought back to England and burned at the stake in 1536 for what some today would call 'arian' heresies."

1. Tyndale was executed outside of Brussels.
2. In his Exposition of the First Epistle of St. John, Tyndale states "Jesus is God, and Almighty." Hey, David, care to enlighten us "apostates" what is so Arian about Tyndale's theological statement? Cat got your tongue, like it has on my other questions?
---Marc on 2/2/15


spiritual abuse is like this website...only one sided answers - their side. just like the pharisees, they trap those who are already suffering, then add more baggages by accusing those who suffer of sin.
---mike on 2/2/15


'First, It was already revealed'- micha.

Where was it revealled? Please quote chapter and verse where the Bible states "God the Holy Spirit"?

The Arian controversy spawned the Council of Nicea in 325AD, chaired by pagan Roman Emperor Constantine who promoted what micha9344 now promotes, that Jesus is equal with God. But the Constantine-trinity heresy did not decide in 325AD who the 3rd part of the trinity was. Some such as Tertulian postulated it should be the holy spirit, but the holy spirit wasn't endorsed as the 3rd member of the trinity until 381AD!

Those who follow the Bible do not require ecumenical councils to decide what they believe!
---David8318 on 2/2/15


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/If they were, why did God not reveal the truth about the holy spirit until 381AD!?\-David8318 on 2/2/15
First, It was already revealed.
Second, it was brought forth to council because of the Arian heresy, which is still promoted today through the WTS.
It is the Arian heresy that was new and went against the apostles teachings.
---micha9344 on 2/2/15


'your first STOP sign'- Warwick.

Warwick is not even on the right road! He is lost in Paganville! Warwick deceitfully misquotes Morenz who apart from being trinitarian was also a Professor of Egyptology. What Morenz knew as a Professor of Egyptology is that Christendoms trinity has "direct links with" pagan Egyptian trinities.

Were all the "church fathers" disciples of the apostles? Warwick says Ignatius was! So what! Judas was a disciple of Christ, but that didn't stop him from betraying the truth. Theres no evidence these "fathers" were God appointed. If they were, why did God not reveal the truth about the holy spirit until 381AD!?
---David8318 on 2/2/15


"Promote Kelly [and Fortman] as antiTrinitarian..." Warwick

A lie and a silly notion. That's like saying that the Catholic Church (or the Catholic Encyclopedia writers are anti-Trinitarian when they say:

"The formulation one God in three Persons was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century...Among the Apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." Vol. XIV (14), p. 299.

Of course (like Fortman and Kelly) the Catholic Church believes in the Trinity, however they acknowledge the centuries required to synthesize what the scriptures never comment on.
---scott on 2/2/15


One does not have to be a JW to see the nonsense in believing in a three headed god !
Jesus, who was standing in the river,was spoken to by His Father in heaven, and the third part of the trinity came down as a bird !This is not rocket science,it's absurd to believe that an "immortal" God died ! Twist the scriptures any way that suits you, with gobbledy-gook. Arius was not a "witness" and he was murdered (poisoned) by trinitarians to silence him!
---1stcliff on 2/1/15


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'Tyndale did!'

What is interesting about Tyndale is that he was the first English translator to use the divine name as we know it today- "Jehovah". He translated YHWH- the Hebrew Tetragram- as "Iehouah" in 20 places in the Hebrew scriptures.

This and the fact Tyndale wanted the Bible to be read in the common English of his day brought him into conflict with apostate trinitarian Christendom who hounded him all the way to Germany where he was betrayed, brought back to England and burned at the the stake in 1536 for what some today would call 'arian' heresies. Christendom didn't want people to read the Bible in the common English... of course because it would expose their false teachings.
---David8318 on 2/2/15


David, Christians did not teach "the pagan trinity dogma" because, as your Man Morenz wrote "the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical", i.e. not your pagan trinity!

Christians understand that Scripture teaches Jesus is God, as we are free to think and have the Holy Spirit's guidance. You don't so are in darkness. Ignatius (ad 30-107) disciple of Peter, Paul and John called Jesus "Our Lord and God,.."

STOP signs simply say STOP. Are you still at your first STOP sign or did you interpret it to mean you can go after stopping? The meaning of Scripture is also interpreted.

BTW Isaiah 9:16 and 10:21 call both Jehovah and Jesus "Mighty God."
---Warwick on 2/1/15


These apostates couldn't decide who the 3rd person of the trinity was until 381AD when they decided it should be the holy spirit! Why did God not reveal the truth until 381AD!?
---David8318 on 2/1/15

Pls give me the quote where they made that decision?

Why did God not tells us that new books were going to be written and we should abide in them?

If the Bible is that important for us why did it take late 3rd early 4th to decide which books belong in it? why did not God just tell the apostles about them or even mention it?
---Ruben on 2/1/15


David: "I also have asked trinitarians time and again to show where God appointed a group or organisation prior to 325AD who taught the pagan trinity dogma?"

1. The disciples of John etc were, who then formed the Church.

2. David, has the Watchtower/JW organisation been appointed by God? Yes or no?

3. David, why do you refuse to respond to my point, something I've now asked you twice: The NWT states, "by means of [Jesus] all [other] things were created." Yet you state "Jesus didn't create anything." Please explain how and what Jesus did.
---Marc on 2/1/15


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'the Church... held to Jesus being God'

And yet there is not one scripture which states "Jesus is God" or "Jesus being God". This is Marc's abuse of scripture.

I also have asked trinitarians time and again to show where God appointed a group or organisation prior to 325AD who taught the pagan trinity dogma?

Marc can only rely upon quotes post 150AD from his beloved Platonizing early church Fathers who were already in a flirtatious relationship with the pagan trinity dogma.

These apostates couldn't decide who the 3rd person of the trinity was until 381AD when they decided it should be the holy spirit! Why did God not reveal the truth until 381AD!?
---David8318 on 2/1/15


Scott, your deceit is obvious. You promote Kelly as antiTrinitarian but he says "Naturally the Son is fully divine: 'the Father is God, and the Son is God, for whatever is begotten of God is God'.." 'Early Christian Doctrine' p.107.

Then Fortman whom you also claim is antiTrinitarian but writes "this doctrine (Trinity) is a Christian doctrine that did and could originate only from divine revelation." And "He (Holy Spirit) was someone distinct from both Father and Son with a distinct personal existence."

Then there is Barclay who wrote to Proff. Shoemaker ". The Watchtower article has, by judicious cutting, made me say the opposite of what I meant to say."

---Warwick on 2/1/15


"Grrrrr"- Marc

Regarding our angry friend, see the 'Glorification of Jesus' thread -

"You're welcome to Origen." Marc

And there it is.

Following days of Marc's vitriolic accusations for daring to suggest that his stalwart of trinitarianism, ("bowdlerising him, "misquoting him, "never checking accuracy", "unscholarly", "dishonest", etc.), he now tosses him away like bad fish.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to shed a little light on Marc's misconception regarding the church "Fathers". I'm sure he would have thanked me, had he not exhausted his word limit renouncing the Trinitarian champion that he defended yesterday."
---scott on 2/1/15


\\when you don't submit to their false teaching. \\

Like I don't submit to your own false teachings, kathr?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/1/15


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Much like it looks like here on line from those who degrade and call you names because they have NO POWER OVER YOU, when you don't submit to their false teaching. They use scripture out of context to curse you with, thinking they are scaring you into submission. Then they blame you for being rebellious because you stood up to them, or accuse YOU of making them sin, when they lose their cool. Physical, emotional and spiritual abuse is all about POWER. They want it, and when you don't let them have it, or simply say you have other opinions, they can't handle it. It is an extremely immature and insecure person who display this personality disorder.
---kathr4453 on 1/31/15


Cluny, you can read for yourself if interested. Do a Google search for Orange Papers.
---learner2 on 1/31/15


\\One of the biggest offenders is Alcoholics Anonymous.
---learner2 on 1/30/15\\

Can you elaborate, please?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/31/15


Spiritual abuse is emotional or physical abuse done under the guise of religion or spirituality. One of the biggest offenders is Alcoholics Anonymous.
---learner2 on 1/30/15


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Rod, one only has to arrive at the historically supported position (i.e. with bundles of documentation) the Church, right from inception, held to Jesus being God, and then see how Watchtowerites Scott and David hoodwink people here the Church didn't.

I've perennially asked both to provide contrary evidence and they've declined or isolated a word or two from context, thus inverting the author's intended message.

I've asked dozens of JWs over years to provide anyone from before AD 200 who held to JW theology. They couldn't. (One this week stated 15th century Tyndale did!!)

"I write this to prevent you from being led astray by someone or other's attractive arguments." (Colossians 2:4)
---Marc on 1/30/15


Spiritual abuse, Is spiritual adultery.

The triple minded 3 persons godhead believers in Rev.17 vs 4 5 6 which are many Mat.7 v 13 says there is God The Father (which is correct),/ then they turn around to say god the son, god the holy spirit (which is Incorrect)<-- but are commandments doctrines of men, even the j witness peoples.

Glory to God The Father which who Is & who Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 1/30/15


Elizabeth Esther has written a very good book on this subject: GIRL AT THE END OF THE WORLD.
---Cluny on 1/29/15

I can personally relate to Elizabeth's story. Her story is so similar to mine.

Coming from the Fundamentalist and Jesus movements of the late 60's and 70's, I have personally seen some of my friends "exorcised" because of their rebellion, questions, and lack of faith. We went to church 6-7 times a week. We went to rallies and revivals, conducted prayer sit-ins and sang Jesus songs on the street.

As a result, I lost my faith during my 20s and 30s. All I wanted was away from my abusive father and his God.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/30/15


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