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Holier Christians Possible

Some churches teach that sometime after getting saved, a Christian can become "sanctified" where they basically turn into holier, almost sinless, better Christians. Thoughts?

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 ---Jed on 2/5/15
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Steveng:

You wrote: Why do you bear false witness against me?

"Apparently", means "it appears to some that", so if one person believes it, it's true. This is why police and media always say "alleged". As long as one person alleges a thing (even if it isn't true), the statement itself is true, so not false witness/slander/libel/perjury.

You must also believe "money is the root of all evil" instead of the "love of money is the root of all evil."

This is a logical non-sequitur, much like "You hate broccoli. Broccoli is a vegetable. Therefore you hate all vegetables" (or "spinach is also a vegetable. Therefore you must also hate spinach").
---StrongAxe on 7/20/15


If they mainly mean changing your outward behavior, this would be "legalistic", not sanctified.

But 1 John 4:17 does say >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, I understand that God's love in us cures our nature so we become loving "as He is" > no procrastination to a later life > "in this world" is now.

And God's love gives us almighty protection against fear > 1 John 4:18.

Philippians 2:14-16 shows us how we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation".
---Bill on 7/20/15


In other words faith you are agreeing with the Bible.


Rom 13:8-10

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Our loving leads us to do the Commandments not ignore them.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/15/15


Cluny: \\God has ultimate power, but he will only intervene just before Satan,\\

Ahh, taking what I posted out of context. Proof that you take bible verses out of context. You must also believe "money is the root of all evil" instead of the "love of money is the root of all evil."
---Steveng on 2/12/15


"we've been in the "last days" for the last 2000 years".

EXACTLY Cluny. Jesus finished what was accomplished on the cross 2,000 years ago, the JESUS DISPENSATION is complete only by BEING REGENERATED by His Spirit and having "living water" (a GENUINE caring/contrite heart ("heart of flesh" instead of a heart of stone").

We should not have be ordered/COMMANDED to do the right thing, we should be "LOVERS OF GOODNESS" instead of being COMPELLED to do good. Jesus performed GOD'S righteousness, but we should do OURS (the heavenly SPIRIT). The Jews rejected the SPIRIT because they wanted to continue Mosaic law instead (that is what THE INCIDENT AT ANTIOCH is all about).
---faithforfaith on 2/12/15




\\God has ultimate power, but he will only intervene just before Satan,\\

I give the red words of the Savior just before His Ascension into heaven, and Steveng answers with foolish human philosophy in a helpless attempt to prove himself right.

Is this what his worldly denominational "church" teaches him to do?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/12/15


Hi, Jed (c: I have been finding more and more holes in my claim to be a really Christian person!!

unforgiveness

paranoid suspicion of people, instead of blessing them in prayer

looking down on Cluny, instead of being humble > even though he wrote "It's not a apocalyptic phenomenon," in his post, below > 2/7/15, after correcting others

meditating on how someone should cream ISIS, when in fact ones upset with ISIS are themselves in a cult of slaughtering unborn people who are not convenient for them

So, I need to not have so many holes, but become holy in love. This comes with seeking our Father for correction > Hebrews 12:6-11. As we get closer to Him, we get more closely corrected.
---com7fy8 on 2/11/15


Cluny wrote: "Jesus said "All power is given to ME in heaven AND ON EARTH."

Who is right?"

God has ultimate power, but he will only intervene just before Satan, through man, destroys. If God is working in the world why isn't the world peaceful? At this moment, Satan has the power over man, over all the world except for the few christians who are walking in the spirit and who God is working through. Man's sinful nature gives Satan great power.

Isaiah 14:12-14
Josh 24:15
Proverb 16:25
Ephesians 6:12
Luke 8:12
1 Tim. 3:6
1 John. 2:16
II Corinthians 4:4

Satan has no power over true christians, but he has power in the world.
---Steveng on 2/10/15


\\I have always wrote that Satan is the ruler of this world\\

Jesus said "All power is given to ME in heaven AND ON EARTH."

Who is right? Jesus or your worldly denominational "church"?

Besides, it's "I have always WRITTEN..."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/10/15


Good point Peter I agree with the Slowly. We grow in Christ.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/10/15




Cluny wrote: Apparently Steveng and his worldly denominational "church" believe that the Satan is stronger than the Holy Spirit."

Apparently you are in error. Why do you bear false witness against me? Do they teach you that in your denomination? Do you think you are glorifying God by bearing false witness against people?

I have always wrote that Satan is the ruler of this world and he's doing all he can to destroy God's creation. His time is short and things in the world are exponentially getting worse.

The Holy Spirit only works with those who walk in the spirit, who walks side by side with God.
---Steveng on 2/9/15


Jed: The 'almost sinless' maybe, maybe not.

The real question is whether this occurs in one immediate stage or whether it occurs slowly.

My normal idea is that more often than not, it occurs slowly, with people being built by God.

In some or many case, yes, people go through a particular situation, similar to Pentecost, where something happens immediately to them

I am not sure how common it is, it has not occurred to me, but slow growth has.
---Peter on 2/9/15


Satan is not stronger then the Holy Spirit, our free choice allows many to choose to be hypocrites and not love JESUS and love others as a real follower of Jesus does.

Two churches claim to be the original Church. The Roman Catholic who also claim that the Pope is the only true representive of GOD on earth and all hope of salvation must come down through him.

The Orthodox also claim to be the one true church.

Both were at one time one church but split in the Great Schism.

I believe the one true church is two parts. All those who love GOD with all their heart and love their neighbor as themselves.

Then the Movement that teaches from the Bible all truth with the Bible being the final word on all doctrine.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/9/15


\\\\Satan has had over two thousand years to infiltrate and divide christiandom ...\\

Apparently Steveng and his worldly denominational "church" believe that the Satan is stronger than the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/9/15


\\Satan has had over two thousand years to infiltrate and divide christiandom up into tens of thousands of different denominations each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible. Is Christ divided?\\

This does not stop the Orthodox Church from being the original Church the Lord founded.

The worldly denominational "church" of Steveng is one of these thousands his own words condemn.

What does that make him?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/8/15


Satan has had over two thousand years to infiltrate and divide christiandom up into tens of thousands of different denominations each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible. Is Christ divided?

One knows that he or she is born again:

II Corinthians 5:17
Romans 10:9-11
I John 5:1-6, 12
Galatians 2:20, 3:26-28, 5:24-25
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Matthew 13:23
John 1:12
II Timothy 4:17-18
Psalm 119:11, 16
Mark 9:23

Christianity is a lifestyle. When one is born again in the spirit he will grow as in the physical. The apostles grew in three years from being born again to maturity. I Timothy 4:13

But... There are many warnings about backsliding.
---Steveng on 2/8/15


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Jed. I agree that in the physical Christians are not perfect. And yes, Christians should be embracing a better lifestyle that reflects our love for God and all people.

But we all are at different stages of growth and facing different circumstances, hence we see that in the physical none of us is perfect.

I suggest that those churches that measure sanctification by how well one behaves, have no understanding of scripture.
---Haz27 on 2/7/15


\\In Acts 2:17 and in Joel, we are told that "IN THE LAST DAYS, I will POUR out MY SPIRIT....:\\

That happened 2000 years ago, according to St. Peter's inspired sermon in Acts 2.

It's not a apocalyptic phenomenon.

To put it another way, we've been in the "last days" for the last 2000 years.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/7/15


When we first came to Christ, we received a "MILK" teaching and had a "milk" devotion, but as we grow, we should learn to have a "solid food" devotion (it is a "more excellent" devotion/dedication to Jesus that includes being sanctified for ETERNAL LIFE by the divine spirit of God).

In Acts 2:17 and in Joel, we are told that "IN THE LAST DAYS, I will POUR out MY SPIRIT....:.

The "living water" is what POURED from Jesus's side at the cross along with BLOOD (it is our THIRD WITNESS, 1 John 5:8....THE JEWS had TWO witnesses in REVELATION).

This is so we "neither thirst" Rev. 7!16. THE SPIRIT is necessary for COMPLETE salvation (SANCTIFICATION and ETERNAL LIFE).
---faithforfaith on 2/7/15


Haz27, I agree witg you also. We are sanctified (made clean, spotless, blameless) in the eyes of God as soon as we become saved. I was using the term in the way these church's use it (actually sinless and holy in thought and deed). I don't think anyone will ever acheive that in this fleshly life, although all Christians should strive, as much as possible, to sin as little and grow as close to God as earthly possible. I also believe that Christians receive the Holy Spirit when thet are saved. How can one be saved without God's Spirit being in them?
---Jed on 2/7/15


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Christians are holy/sanctified as soon as they receive Christ. There is no gradual process.

Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root is holy, so are the branches

Heb 10:10
we HAVE BEEN sanctified THROUGH the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all

To suggest that there's a gradual process to becoming holy/sanctified is to suggest that Christ's sacrifice failed to complete the job in the first place.
---Haz27 on 2/7/15


Jed: I'm of the opinion that salvation is a 3-step process, and that one does not attain salvation until he is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Further, it is God's province to judge our fitness for salvation - not our own - lest we commit blasphemy by usurping God's authority.

The first step in salvation is justification - the born again, new birth experience by which we begin our walk with the Lord.

The next step is sanctification - the lifelong walk with the Lord in which we become more like Him.

The last step is glorification - when we go to our final home with God.

It ain't over 'til it's over.


---jerry6593 on 2/7/15


\\ But I do agree we are all on our own different level in the life-long process and will only reach completion when we return to our maker.
---Jed on 2/6/15
\\

Not true.

We are constantly being conformed to the image and likeness of God both here and in eternity, but we'll never reach completion because God is infinite.

We do grow from glory to glory in the World to Come, however.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/7/15


Simul justus et peccator.
If someone says that we need to grow in Christ - that's biblical. But if these are the same people that say Matthew 22:37 is attainable in this life - that's not going to happen.
If good works are a product of our new nature, that's true. If works are said to produce righteousness - that's false.
If we agree with Romans 3:23-24 - we are looking towards the Lord. If our standard is a Wesleyan/Holiness second work of grace, or a Keswickian second blessing - that's just introspection.
Paul had to correct both legalism and antinomianism in Ephesians, Galatians and Romans. Matthew 9:17-19, Romans 12:1-2, 1Corinthians 2:6-3:3, Galatians 5:13-26, Philippians 3:12-14, 2Timothy 1:7-9, Hebrews 5:11-6:20, 9:14.
---Glenn on 2/6/15


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I was referring to certain churches which recognize two very distinct levels of salvation. Those who are "saved and sanctified" and those who are merely saved only, and not sanctified. Those who are merely saved have accepted Jesus, but have not been filled with the Holy Spirit and are still sinners. While those that are "saved and sanctified" have been filled with the Spirit and no longer sin. And if they do commit a sin then they will lose their "sanctification" and have to go back to being a regular Christian and work to be "sanctified" again. In pentecostal churches, you know you are "sactified" when you begin speaking in tongues. Until then you are only saved, not sanctified.
---Jed on 2/6/15


Well Jed and cluny you both make good points. Thank you.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/6/15


Cluny, I tend to agree, but I don't think one's closeness with God necessarily corellates with their length of time saved, although sometimes it does. I think all Christians mature at different rates. Just as a 20 year old can be more mentally and emotionally mature than a 50 year old. Also, I think most of us have, at times, laxed in our spiritual walk amd have strayed further from God than perhaps we have been at other times. But I do agree we are all on our own different level in the life-long process and will only reach completion when we return to our maker.
---Jed on 2/6/15


Sanctification, or "theosis" as Orthodox call it, is a life-long process and continues into eternity.

Do you really expect a baby Christian to be as holy as a mature Christian who's been trying his best to follow Jesus for 5 decades and more?

Does any of us here think we have no virtues to acquire or perfect?

1 Cor. talks about our wood, hay, and stubble being burned away so the gold, silver, and precious stone can be refined and show up more clearly.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/6/15


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