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Converting from one brand of Christianity to another...

Give an example of going from bad to worse.

For example , I met a man who left the Church if Christ to join a Universalism cult

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 ---James_L on 3/12/15
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God's
THE Acts Church of The Living God which are few, Mat.7 v 14.

Not of God.
The commandments doctrines of men 3 persons godhead in Rev.17 vs 4 5 6 Pushing Pressing, John 10 v 1. Even those that worship other dif gods, buddha, hindu other etc. Which are many, Mat.7 v 13.
---Lawrence on 4/6/15


\\Or that in Europe you could be placed in prision for desacrating the Sabbath (Sunday)?\\

In what country and when?

And what was considered "desecration of the Sabbath"?

Be specific, please.

Christ is risen! (For those of you who observe the Pope's Easter and and the true Apostolic Orthodox Pascha.)
---Cluny on 4/5/15


Samuelbb7:

You said: In our Hymnals we have a few Sabbath songs that were written back when Sunday was considered Sabbath.

I thought the whole SDA thing is that Saturday is the Sabbath, so most of the Christian churches treating Sunday as the Sabbath is invalid.

Also have you never heard of Sunday Blue laws.

I grew up in Canada in the '60s. Most stores were closed on Sunday. Convenience stores were allowed to be open, but restricted in floor space. I remember one mid-sized grocery store that remained open by fencing off part of the store on Sundays. A few other essential businesses like hospitals, restaurants and gas stations were also allowed to be open, but they were fairly limited.
---StrongAxe on 4/5/15


Strong Ax

(Do not wear blended fabrics would be Ceremonial.)

I love the comment about smoking.

Sunday is still considered the Sabbath by the majority of Christian churches. But they just do not keep it.

My Methodist Grandmother remebered when Sabbath or Sunday, you were not allowed to play games. Also have you never heard of Sunday Blue laws. Or that in Europe you could be placed in prision for desacrating the Sabbath (Sunday)?

In our Hymnals we have a few Sabbath songs that were written back when Sunday was considered Sabbath.

Please check your Church history.

Jesus is risen.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/5/15


Samuelbb7:

You wrote: Under the Ceremonial laws there is what we call the Health Category.

So under which category is "don't wear blended fabrics"? That is not a health issue.

Now if you disobey health laws I do not believe it will cause a person to be lost. But it can lead to an early death.

I was once at a lecture where the speaker was asked if smoking would keep people from heaven. He said no. In fact, you would get there faster than everyone else!

Most Commentators have placed the Seventh day Sabbath as a moral law until about 100 years ago.

I find this hard to believe, as most Christians in the past 2000 years have worshiped on Sunday. Can you cite your source?
---StrongAxe on 4/4/15




Samuelbb7:

You wrote: So Moral laws are any laws that have to do with the Ten Commandments. Exaple do not move the border stones of a neighbor.

Ceremonial laws deal with Sacrifices and the Temple.


So, under which category would you put "do not eat shellfish" and "do not wear blended fabrics"? These are neither mentioned in the Ten Commandments, nor have anything to do with sacrifices nor temple.
---StrongAxe on 4/3/15


STRong ax

There are also the civil laws of the Jewish goverment and their penalties.

Under the Ceremonial laws there is what we call the Health Category. Do not dring polluted water and do not go to the bathroom in the water you drink is here.

So is eating Shrimp which can be undhealthy.

On tatoos. There is a ceremonial aspect to that since it was often a pagan ritual. It is also part under health law since it was dangeours.

Now if you disobey health laws I do not believe it will cause a person to be lost. But it can lead to an early death.

Most Commentators have placed the Seventh day Sabbath as a moral law until about 100 years ago.

Jesus is risen.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/3/15


StrongAxe wrote: "YOU accused the Orthodox Church, ... YOU need to provide the evidence. "

I provided the evidence straight from the IRS, but it seems to be too much trouble for people to look into it.

I don't accuse just the Orthodox church, but all denonimational churches. All denominational churches spend at an average of 83% of their revenue (donations, etc) into maintaining their assests (property, stocks and bonds, salaries, etc.). It is impossible to present the entire Form 990 with this limited space. And even if I did try to you would say I'm wrong. So the best thing to do is for you to look into your own denominational church's Form 990.
---Steveng on 4/2/15


Good point Strong Ax.

You asked a question on about the divisions of the law. This has been a doctrine for many centuries. Calvin explained it very well. As Seventh day Adventist we have one small addition.

So Moral laws are any laws that have to do with the Ten Commandments. Exaple do not move the border stones of a neighbor.

Ceremonial laws deal with Sacrifices and the Temple.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/2/15


Steveng:

You said: I'm innocent until I'm proven guilty

This isn't about YOU being innocent or guilty. Nobody is accusing you of anything. However, YOU accused the Orthodox Church, and it is that church's innocence or guilt that is at question - and for that, YOU need to provide the evidence.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/15




Monk_Brendan wrote: "However, as StrongAxe and others have already mentioned, it is your job to bring forth evidence, not mine."

I'm innocent until I'm proven guilty. How am I going to prove what I say is true or not unless you look into it yourself. Whatever I post you will find some snide remark telling me otherwise. I have brought forth the evidence of my research, but you have already condemned me. The only way you are going to find the truth is to do your own research.

Brenden, you only researched the form itself. Try to get it from your denominational church.
---Steveng on 4/1/15


StevenG said, "Prove it by researching the Form 990."

I did research it. The form is something that all not for profit corporations fill out, and it does not list every stick of furniture, every chalice, and so on.

However, as StrongAxe and others have already mentioned, it is your job to bring forth evidence, not mine. The Law of the land says "innocent until proven guilty."

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/31/15


Steveng:

You wrote: If anyone doubts me, they should search for themselves if I'm telling the truth. If not how would you know if I was lying or not?

This is the difference between the gospel (that the Bereans sought) vs. accusations (which required 2-3 corroborating witnesses). Your statement was an accusation against the Orthodox church, not "good news".
---StrongAxe on 3/31/15


Trav, one day you say one thing then the next you post something contrary! For me the Anglican, wolf pup...it's all jus tho confuthing.

So Trav spill, it can those who are not Jews, not of Israel, or Judah, or Levi, or Benjamin, or..., but are Gentiles be saved by Jesus atoning sacrifice? For a man of your erudition this should be a doddle!

BTW you keep going on and on about Scriptures I will not face up to or avoid but when asked, and asked, and asked you just can't come up with even ONE little one! C'mon youse can do better.
---Warwick on 3/31/15


StrongAxe wrote: "It is the witnesses' job to present the evidence, not to ensure it is believed. That is on the hearers. Besides, Google is not scripture, and you are not Paul."

You assume too much.

I wrote that the Bereans also searched the scriptures with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. to see if Peter was correct.

If anyone doubts me, they should search for themselves if I'm telling the truth. If not how would you know if I was lying or not?
---Steveng on 3/31/15


Trav, ...you have reluctantly admitted ...
---Warwick on 3/27/15

Get behind me wuss, ur not the full quid here.
Scripture is admission? I've never posted they can or they can't. Ever. I've posted Israels scripture that infuriates you so.
Scripture(s) vs your "opinion" doctrines. I re-posted the scripture that you didn't understand, posting word interpretation that light, and salvation has several meanings.
One scripture does not eradicate the thousands about Israel. The people you presume to have replaced/eliminated and never look for yourself as a poser preacher.
In your face I'll post them for eva...
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 3/31/15


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Steveng:

You wrote: I have already done my research, but whatever I write people will reply with some kind of snide remark. So, like the Bareans, people should prove if I tell the truth or not by doing the research themselves, right?

It is the witnesses' job to present the evidence, not to ensure it is believed. That is on the hearers. Besides, Google is not scripture, and you are not Paul.
---StrongAxe on 3/31/15


StrongAxe wrote: "It is not his job to prove it. It is yours."

I have already done my research, but whatever I write people will reply with some kind of snide remark. So, like the Bareans, people should prove if I tell the truth or not by doing the research themselves, right?
---Steveng on 3/30/15


Steveng:

You wrote: Prove it by researching the Form 990.

It is not his job to prove it. It is yours. When an accusation is made (such as you have done), it is up to the accuser to provide 2-3 witnesses to the thing being accused of. This is similar to the British legal system of "innocent until proven guilty". This is very different from the Napoleonic code of "guilty until proven innocent", where all one has to do is to make an accusation, and an innocent person has to bend over backwards to defend himself against it (like the witch trials in Salem, and under McCarthy).
---StrongAxe on 3/30/15


Brendan wrote: "However, the various flavors of Orthodoxy in America simply do not have the wealth that you attribute to them."

Prove it by researching the Form 990.

Brendan wrote: "What you are ranting about is the Roman Catholic Church,.."

ALL denominational churches.

Brendan wrote: "BTW, the Vatican never files a 990 form, as it is outside of America."

ALL denominational churches in the US file the Form 990, including the catholic and orthodox churches within the US. ALL the revenue taken is is distributed to other organizations - propfit and non-profit.
---Steveng on 3/29/15


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Steven G said, "... is the Tax Form 990 - The Annual Informational Tax Return. This form goes into complete detail all sources of revenue and expenses, ..."

Steven, the title of form 990 is: "Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax"

However, the various flavors of Orthodoxy in America simply do not have the wealth that you attribute to them.

What you are ranting about is the Roman Catholic Church, which for centuries did have all of the wealth that you are talking about. However, the Roman Catholic Church has been forced to be more transparent. BTW, the Vatican never files a 990 form, as it is outside of America

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/29/15


If anyone thinks the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have riches just go to the Main church in Mexico city. The main altar in front had everything there covered in gold plus several smaller altars down the sides were also covered in gold,that doesn't come cheap. What hurt the most was seeing all that wealth on objects and outside were the poor begging for money. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 3/29/15


Cluny wrote: "In other words, you cannot back up what you say in your snide remarks about Orthodoxy."

On the contrary, I could back everything I write, but would you belive me? So, therefore, I ask you to prove it to yourself by doing YOUR research using Tax Form 990.

Cluny wrote: "Henceforth, you're dead to me."

I'm sorry you feel that way.
---Steveng on 3/28/15


\\Cluny, Brendan: whatever I write you will find some snide remark to throw back at me. So, instead do your own research\\

In other words, you cannot back up what you say in your snide remarks about Orthodoxy.

Henceforth, you're dead to me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/15


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Cluny, Brendan: whatever I write you will find some snide remark to throw back at me. So, instead do your own research.

Investigative reporters have many tools we use to dig further into any non-profit organization. One of the forms we use, besides the financial statements and yearly tax returns of the non-profit organization, is the Tax Form 990 - The Annual Informational Tax Return. This form goes into complete detail all sources of revenue and expenses, examines all assets (including property, stocks and bonds, and all changes during the year), business transactions between insiders and other for-profit corporations, and a whole lot more. This form gives the true wealth of the organization.
---Steveng on 3/27/15


Trav, bravo, finally you have reluctantly admitted that the Gentiles (as opposed to Jews) can also be saved by Jesus sacrifice. And I only had to ask for an answer five times!

Why did you deny this for so long?

BTW a Christian does not need self-esteem because we know that we are loved so much by God that He came to be with us and died, paying the price for our sins. Self-esteem is such a worldly thing.
---Warwick on 3/27/15


What the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches disagree on is just what the Primacy of Peter means, what it involves, and its limits.

Since there have been books written on this subject I will say no more.

I agree with Monk Brendan. One split in Orthodoxy involved how the Name of Jesus should be spelled in Russian.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/15


StevenG said "The Orthodox "church" has gathered up trillions of dollars in worldly goods...The Orthodox "church" is nothing more than a non-profit corporation taking advantage of the tax laws in the late 1800s. Corporations, both profit and non-profit, technically belong to the government."

You are sadly mistaken if you think that the Orthodox Church is doing all that. Not even the Roman Catholic Church is doing that. There is too much transparency in the system nowadays.

Steven, why are you so full of hatred at what other Christians believe that you have to make things up?

As I pray for you, I ask you to Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/27/15


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Trav, now I am "little pup." ...
You quote 2 Samuel 7:24 ...
---Warwick on 3/26/15

Flattering yourself, a sign of low self esteem.
Bitzer pup, growl, chew, scripture witnesses eat your dog-ma. Now, after all these years of posted scripture you think you're brave. Ha.
Isa 49:6 ... It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a "light" to the "goy", that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. "salvation"-aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help.

What you reject willfully in scripture, enables the scripture you despise.
Light thing ...
---Trav on 3/27/15


StevenG said, "The Orthodox "Church", as well as all the other denominaional "church" have yielded to the secular world. The Orthodox Church, for instance, has changed many times on contraception, divorce, primacy of Peter, Mary's perpetual virginity, and Mary's sinlessless. ..."

Not so, Not so. The Orthodox Church has a hard time changing a light bulb, much less a doctrine. All of the things that you mentioned (Except the primacy of Peter) have been set in stone for at least 1500 years, which is well before the time of the great schism in 1054. The primacy of Peter is a Roman Catholic teaching.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/27/15


\\The Orthodox Church, for instance, has changed many times on contraception, ... \\

Give the dates of these changes, please Steveng. Bet you can't.

\\The Orthodox "church" has gathered up trillions of dollars in worldly goods - property, furniture, stocks and bonds, etc. \\

Give the exact amount, please.

In my experience many Orthodox priests and even bishops have secular jobs because the Church can't support them.

\\The Orthodox "church" is nothing more than a non-profit corporation taking advantage of the tax laws in the late 1800s.\\

Do I hear the voice of envy here because the worldly "church" of Steveng doesn't have that much money?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/15


Cluny wrote: "What doctrines and teachings has the Orthodox Church changed since 1054?"

The Orthodox "Church", as well as all the other denominaional "church" have yielded to the secular world. The Orthodox Church, for instance, has changed many times on contraception, divorce, primacy of Peter, Mary's perpetual virginity, and Mary's sinlessless. The Orthodox "church" has gathered up trillions of dollars in worldly goods - property, furniture, stocks and bonds, etc. The Orthodox "church" is nothing more than a non-profit corporation taking advantage of the tax laws in the late 1800s. Corporations, both profit and non-profit, technically belong to the government.
---Steveng on 3/26/15


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Trav, now I am "little pup." I think you fancy me!!

You quote 2 Samuel 7:24 which refers to Israel as though this says the same is not available to Gentiles. However the Scriptures I have posted show the Gentiles are included in this blessing. Isaiah 49:6 ".I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

For the fifth time I ask:

You have said only Jews can be saved. Are you now saying you believe Gentiles (those who are not Jews) can also be saved by faith in Jesus?

You claim there are Scriptures I will not handle. Please supply one such Scripture. Please do so.

Still waiting!
---Warwick on 3/26/15


Trav, how silent you are when challenged.
---Warwick on 3/25/15

Out of my office yesterday.
And No, little pup. As you were the accuser. You were challenged first to provide proof of your accusations.
You cannot.
You had hundreds of opportunity's to answer scriptures I've posted.
You couldn't, so you didn't. Evidence by your absence.
You could dance with my "relevant"...scripture post but, you'd rather run, hide or do a biting attack. Wolf tactics.
Snarl and attack the Prophets, Apostles and Christ as I post going forward.
2Sa_7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
---Trav on 3/26/15


Trav, how silent you are when challenged. For the fourth time I ask:

You have said only Jews can be saved. Are you now saying you believe that Gentiles (those who are not Jews) can also be saved by faith in Jesus? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

You continue to evade this question which is an answer in itself.

You (falsely it appears) claim there are Scriptures I will not handle. I asked you to supply one such Scripture. Please do so. It should be easy if you are right!

I am waiting, still.
---Warwick on 3/25/15


\\But both have changed their doctrine and teachings since then. \\

What doctrines and teachings has the Orthodox Church changed since 1054?

Please be specific, Samuel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/15


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Cluny the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches both say they gave the rest of us the Bible.

Which is only partially true. Since when the Canon was set they were one church at that time.

But both have changed their doctrine and teachings since then.

I know from you the Orthodox is closer to the truth then the RCC. But still your denonimation does not follow all the Bible.

Since the churches established the Bible shouldn't they follow the teachings of the Bible?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/25/15


Steveng:

You wrote: Which scriptures were they searching when the new testament has not been written yet?

The Old Testament, of course.
---StrongAxe on 3/25/15


"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures?"

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,.."

"...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

"Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Which scriptures were they searching when the new testament has not been written yet?
---Steveng on 3/24/15


\\Jed said: "If she reads her Bible, then why is she Greek Orthodox?"\\

You don't actually think the church YOU go to is the same as the one in the Bible, do you?

Are you THAT confused?

Who do you think gave you the Bible to which you appeal to start with?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/24/15


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Trav, as anyone can see you have deceitfully misquoted me, as I have shown. You have evaded admitting the obvious haven't you?

You have said only Jews can be saved, now for the third time I ask: "Are you now saying you believe that Gentiles (those who are not Jews) can be saved by faith in Jesus?" A simple yes or no answer will suffice. No answer means you cannot answer without incriminating yourself.

For the third time "You (falsely it appears) claim there are Scriptures I will not handle. I asked you to supply one such Scripture." Please supply one such Scripture. It should be easy if you are right!

I am waiting.
---Warwick on 3/24/15


Trav, you dishonestly misquoted me
You ...claim there are Scriptures I will not handle.
In the past you have claimed only Jews can be saved.
I am waiting.
---Warwick on 3/23/15

You stated I've posted scripture "not" relevant. Show it and where... accuser.
I stated "all" scripture was relevant. The fact you rarely understand it, doesn't make any scripture not relevant. A fact you state and expose openly without realizing it.

You claim I've said only jews can be saved. But, you won't/can't show where. Because I never stated such.
You had hundreds of opportunity's to address what I've posted. You couldn't or didn't. Now your barking.
Address scripture I post forward...wolf pup.
---Trav on 3/24/15


Jed said: "If she reads her Bible, then why is she Greek Orthodox?"

First, a disclaimer. I am Catholic, and not Orthodox.

However, Jed's remark is consistent with many Protestant denominations who believe that you must go to a Protestant Church--and then only a few of them--to be a Christian.

I am a Christian, I am a Catholic Christian. Both Orthodox and Catholics not only can be, but most are deeply committed Christians. Just because we don't sling the same lingo doesn't mean we do not love Christ.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/23/15


Trav, you dishonestly misquoted me and do not have the integrity to own up! That you have misquoted me and likewise will not own up, is there for all who will see.

You (falsely it appears) claim there are Scriptures I will not handle. I asked you to supply one such Scripture and enlighten us to what it means. Predictably no answer.

In the past you have claimed only Jews can be saved. Now you claim you have never said this. I asked "Are you now saying you believe that Gentiles (those who are not Jews) can be saved by faith in Jesus?" And again, predictably you avoid an answer.

Unlike your writings there are no insults here, only descriptive truth.

I am waiting.
---Warwick on 3/23/15


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Trav, ... obviously meant that some Scriptures you have quoted were not relevant ... Perfidy!

...tell me what you think it means.
---Warwick on 3/20/15

Un-relevance, that you never proved even once scripturally. You can't. Myself being a warwickiosceptic from the beginning here. For your arrogance first, then you rail/avoid scripture posted. Hundreds of times you should have verified yourself by interpretation.
But, you responded un-scripturally. Sneeringly, you degraded, stomped and railed with all your angl-ican't answer the scriptures! Which null ur pet doctrines. Your fight is with the Christ, Prophets, and Apostles. Not me.
GOD's multiple witness truths break arms-weak doctrines for...eternity. Snap....
---Trav on 3/23/15


Good points Strongax.

I agree with your points.

Another problem is that many try to build a wall between the Old and New Testament. While not all the Old Testament directly applies to the church. It is written for us to use as doctrine.

2Timothy 3:16


Rom 15:4

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.



1Co 10:11

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/22/15


Samuelbb7:

You said: All doctrines that are taught have to line up with Scripture. All Scripture.

On this we can agree.

So Strong Ax do you believe a church tradition that is against what scripture says is correct because church leaders say so?

No, because then God would be the author of confusion. (Then again, scripture tends to be a collection of anecdotes and teachings largely aimed at the uneducated masses, rather than being a legal document. It is largely descriptive, rather than prescriptive. A lot of it is slightly ambiguous and open to interpretation, which is why there are so many minor doctrinal differences.)
---StrongAxe on 3/20/15


Trav, you are so dishonest. I wrote "It is true that you certainly post more Scripture than I however much of it is not relevant to the issue, or misused." But you try to say I believe Scripture itself is not relevant at all, when I obviously meant that some Scriptures you have quoted were not relevant to the specific topic being discussed. Perfidy!

Are you now saying you believe that Gentiles (those who are not Jews) can be saved by faith in Jesus?

I do not know of any Scriptures (which you have quoted/misused) that I will not handle. Please supply one, and tell me what you think it means.
---Warwick on 3/20/15


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Trav asked: What expectation is there for not adhering...
Yes, but how do we know which ones are God's chosen?
---StrongAxe on 3/19/15

Christ says something....a prophet verify's him. While we may not understand at the time what he is alluding too, the witnesses, Prophets still clearly verify.
Next are the Apostles. Next, because Christ is first. Prophets should verify Apostles.
Even in not understanding uphold the fact that scripture witnesses unite.
Asking Christ to open ones understanding is ultimate. No man can open. Ever. No denom can. Ever.
Not asking is why they are confused.
Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, few there be that find it.
---Trav on 3/20/15


Thanks Cluny. Didn't know that. In a good discussion that should be a point.

StrongAx. More a matter of textual Criticism then Tradition. The writers who came before were stating history.

I mentioned before. Sola scriptura is not about the books that make up the Bible. But is about doctrines taught by the Church. All doctrines that are taught have to line up with Scripture. All Scripture.

Many today carve out a single scripture out of context and then say this is truth. All who disagree are lost. Which is the antithesis of Augustine's statement. They prefer animosity to love.

So Strong Ax do you believe a church tradition that is against what scripture says is correct because church leaders say so?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/20/15


I left all denominations membership wise & turned to God fully.
I do fellowship with true believers...
So leaving the worlds view of church is what i needed & embracing God fully is how I became truly free.
---Candice on 3/19/15

Good testimony.
I too will never "sign" the paper joining any denom.
Why we put ourselves under these authority's who have none is incredible.
A brother and friend recently said, yeah members of the "ecclesia" of the 24-7. No paper, no authority but the Father and Son.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master,...
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: ...
---Trav on 3/20/15


Samuelbb7:

You said: The book of Laodicea if memory serves me correctly was taken to be written after the Apostle who supposidly wrote it was dead.

So its exclusion was the matter of textual criticism.

There were a number of books that were gnostic. Others that could not have been writted by their authors. They did depend also on lists drawn up in the first Century.

Such lists are not, themselves, in the Bible, so they are also church tradition.
---StrongAxe on 3/19/15


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"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity," was first said by St. Augustine.

Obviously, this leaves unanswered the matter of what are the essentials.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/15


Good point about some things not making a difference. Strong ax. I agree. John Wesley said something about in nonessentials Charity.

The book of Laodicea if memory serves me correctly was taken to be written after the Apostle who supposidly wrote it was dead.

There were a number of books that were gnostic. Others that could not have been writted by their authors. They did depend also on lists drawn up in the first Century.

The Main point is a doctrine must agree with Scripture. For instance there is a group in America who used to teach to not marry anyone as we are werea all brothers and Sisters. They were called Shakers. Great furniture lousy doctrine.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/15


I left the baptist branch for Church of Christ. finally I left all denominations membership wise & turned to God fully. I do fellowship with true believers from different denominations because we have the foundation through Jesus himself, but the only "membership" I have & need is written in Gods book of life.So leaving the worlds view of church is what i needed & embracing God fully is how I became truly free.
---Candice on 3/19/15


Trav asked: What expectation is there for not adhering to GOD's "chosen" Prophets, Apostles or Christ.

Yes, but how do we know which ones are God's chosen? For example, why do we include the epistle to the Collossians, while excluding the one to the Laodiceans, when each references the other?

Samuelbb7 asked: The RCC hold to one set of traditions the Orthodox churches hold to another. On what basis would you decide which is correct?

Some choices are important, and some are not. I don't think God cares much whether you put strawberry jam or grape jelly on your toast. Many church differences are based on non-fundamental issues that are ultimately superficial (i.e. choking on gnats).
---StrongAxe on 3/19/15


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\\The one Caveat is that we reject the Apocrpha since it is not part of Hebrew Scripture.\\

They ARE part of Hebrew Scripture because they were translated as part of the LXX 2 centuries before Christ.

Furthermore, who's "we"? They were NEVER rejected by Christians before Luther. That's rather late.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/15


... If you reject all non-scriptural tradition, you must therefore necessarily reject scripture itself, since its composition came out of tradition.
---StrongAxe on 3/18/15

Tradition Confusion.
There is an excellent way to reject...mens Non-Scriptural traditions.
There should be two + witnesses scripturally for all scriptural truth. There are several thousand scripture witnesses for some subjects.
What expectation is there for not adhering to GOD's "chosen" Prophets, Apostles or Christ.
Traditions? Made of men, adopted of men?
Or verified by GOD's word?
Ask, demand, make denom preacher/teacher/pope/etc, scripturally verify their "traditions".
---Trav on 3/19/15


Strongax your point does not hold.

Sola Scriptora is the teaching that all doctrine must adhere to Scripture. That Doctrine cannot be based on human tradition.

Yes the early Church culled through and found what was Scripture. I do not have to reject that teaching. In fact I accept it.

The one Caveat is that we reject the Apocrpha since it is not part of Hebrew Scripture.

I reject the antitrinitarian doctrines because they do not adhere to scripture. Not because of church tradition.

The RCC hold to one set of traditions the Orthodox churches hold to another. On what basis would you decide which is correct?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/15


Samuelbb7:

You said: Secondly since you do not believe in Sola Scriptora you count on tradition for much of your doctrine.

The problem with Sola Scriptura is the question, "what, exactly, is scripture?" The only we have of knowing which books are scriptural and which are not is church tradition, which is outside of scripture. If you reject all non-scriptural tradition, you must therefore necessarily reject scripture itself, since its composition came out of tradition. (If you say that holy men were divinely inspired to choose the right books, this does not alter the fact that such inspiration is outside of scripture itself.)
---StrongAxe on 3/18/15


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Dear Cluny

I hold you in respect but you do not have scriptural support for much of what the Orthodox teach.

Secondly since you do not believe in Sola Scriptora you count on tradition for much of your doctrine.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/15


It does, Trav.
---Cluny on 3/18/15

But, it hasn't as noted.
It cannot as revealed...
Realize you are "O" committed.
So...others may seek the narrow path to the only door.
Joh_10:7
For instance:
Orthodoxy is not the name of the "door" or the city gathered into.

Isa_66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: ...

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, at the gates twelve angels, names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
---Trav on 3/18/15


It does, Trav.
---Cluny on 3/18/15


Of course, since we Orthodox got it right the first time, we don't have to change anything.
---Cluny on 3/15/15

But, if you had it right all scripture would confirm your testimony.
I've never seen your scriptural witness testify in multiples on anything in years.
Orthodoxy only witness is your mouth. While you talk a feisty game you're never seen on the field with your team of scripture witnesses. You never bring water for the thirsty...or scriptural meat for the hungry.
"orthodoc-see"...reminds me of "Sad-ducee" or "Phar-isee". The only "see" is in the name.
Luk_18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, ...
---Trav on 3/18/15


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Marc, I've seen it in many issues in the 80's.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/15


Cluny,

Where did you come across the direction that JWs are encouraged to scour old issues of the WT?
---Marc on 3/17/15


\\They replied, "Oh, I understand your logic, but, well, they're old magazines and as we get more light..."\\

This is odd. The Watchtower publications are always saying to look in previous publications for further light.

Of course, since we Orthodox got it right the first time, we don't have to change anything.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/15


Two JWs were disturbing my very old Greek Orthdox neighbour yesterday. I went down to rescue her but she said, "Don't worry, darling, I read my Bible and I know who they are."
---Marc on 3/15/15


If she reads her Bible, then why is she Greek Orthodox?
---Jed on 3/15/15


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Two JWs were disturbing my very old Greek Orthdox neighbour yesterday. I went down to rescue her but she said, "Don't worry, darling, I read my Bible and I know who they are."

With old copies of the Watchtower in hand I showed them they were wrong: they were God's only PROPHETS. I also showed them they use to believe in the cross, blacks were dumber than whites etc.

They replied, "Oh, I understand your logic, but, well, they're old magazines and as we get more light..."

"That's interesting," I asked, "does that mean what you and the magazine are telling me now may be wrong later? How then are you God's prophets?"

They walked away. I was impressed with their apologetic mastery.
---Marc on 3/15/15


\\I was actually thinking about "holier than thou" people like you, Cluny, when I posted that.
---Leon on 3/12/15\\

I never claimed to be holier than anyone, nor do I think I am.

You must be projecting, Leon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/13/15


David,

Not only are you incapable of researching your (God's only earthly prophetic) organisation's publications, prompting you to call me a liar in the process, you flounder even understanding plain English when I explain my comment about "tossing Blacks out". Further to my point, I asked "Has God's only appointed organisation tossed out that Blacks are inferior to whites". You call me a liar, once again. Really?!

Please read Zion's Watch Tower, VOL. XXIII. JULY 15, 1902. No. 14., pp. 215-216, which is EASILY located on-line.

Now, what were you saying, David?
---Marc on 3/12/15


...Churchianity (congregational, doctrinal affiliation) practices [that] exalt the ways of given religious persuasions "regardless" of what the Bible teaches. Churchianity is not Christianity!

I was actually thinking about "holier than thou" people like you, Cluny, when I posted that.
---Leon on 3/12/15


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\\aren't so easily deceived & lead into all manner of devilish confusion. (Gal. 6:5-10)\\

Is that why there are thousands of different flavors of Protestantism?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/15


James_L: A Christian is someone who has been "BORN AGAIN". (Jn. 3:7) Non-christians (persons who aren't born again) will follow every wind of doctrine (isms) that tickles their ears (agrees with their feelings & opinions). (Eph. 4:14) It's a situation of the blind leading the blind. (Matt. 15:14) Churchianity (congregational, doctrinal affiliation) practices exalts the ways of given religious persuasions "regardless" of what the Bible teaches. Churchianity is not Christianity!

Born again believers study & meditate on God's word (the Bible...Ps. 1). They hear & know the voice of the Lord (Jn. 10:27), & aren't so easily deceived & lead into all manner of devilish confusion. (Gal. 6:5-10)
---Leon on 3/12/15


Leaving Orthodoxy for anything.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/15


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