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Apostles Creed Fundamental

Frank Manchen, a professor at Princeton, wrote a series of books called THE FUNDAMENTALS, whence the name "fundamentalism."

If you can confess the Nicene or Apostles' Creed, they cover these points.

What do you think?

Join Our Free Singles and Visit Our Apostles Creed
 ---Cluny on 3/17/15
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Trav said, "...Scripture witnesses are the test of truth, monk."

Then why do I find you so full of falsehood?

Lament 2:14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity, but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/22/15


\\...am I to be judged for Truth?\\
When you start telling it, maybe you won't be judged.
---Cluny on 4/21/15

Ohhh, a new rule. The judging is only done by you guys. Ha.
Which side of your face is one supposed to address of the two?
Mat_15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Luk_6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Isa_56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark, sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
(Acknowledging you are just your current watchmans defender)
---Trav on 4/22/15


\\If truth in a post is a "slap"...am I to be judged for Truth?\\

When you start telling it, maybe you won't be judged.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/21/15


...a slap in the face of Jesus!
Take care. Your judgements are piling up,...
---Monk_Brendan on 4/20/15

You are not Jesus. I've never "slapped" a statement you've posted of Jesus.
If truth in a post is a "slap"...am I to be judged for Truth?
Judgements?
You stated your opinions are formed by scripture.
I stated scripture is better. Now are you saying it is not?
Judge me for finding you lacking in scriptural witnesses to this point. Scripture witnesses are the test of truth, monk.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false religious imposters are gone out into the world
---Trav on 4/21/15


Trav said, "....
You feel superior to scripture, or are misleading yourself."


I have never said that, and if that is what you think, they you are deluded and deceived.

"I've never doubted you believe you ane a Christian and your opinions as a "monk" are holy opinions."

Wow! What a load of bumph! You obviously believe that I am not a Christian. That is more than an insult, it is a slap in the face of Jesus! Take care. Your judgements are piling up, and could easily cause you to stumble along that narrow way that you claim I am not walking. Remember Matthew 7:1, Judge not, that ye be not judged!

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/20/15




...think you get VERY upset when people disagree with you...
---Cluny on 4/18/15

He chose the church he chose the service. See the mark of the church, hear the doctrines of but, not the proof by witnesses.
Scriptures...he's still processing. Hey, aren't we all?

Angry?? Ha. You are just too timid and fearful. Cowboy up and we'll grill another steak for ya. You dropped the last one in the dirt.
Self chosen/elected preachers mangling scripture irritate me because of the circular frustrations their blindness has caused all.
Jer_23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people, Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will...
---Trav on 4/20/15


\ I've never doubted you believe you are a Christian \\
I've never doubted that you're not, Trav.
---Cluny on 4/20/15

True, i am the poorest one of all on earth and do not deserve my next breath. But, I thank YHWH for freedom in truth by scriptural witnesses that make light for some, if not you.
I thank YHWH for you.
Making the opportunity for others to see scripture you've never ate or heard or discuss. You make me look hard at myself and scripture.
Perhaps a good work for you.

Psa_119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.
Psa 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psa 119:141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
---Trav on 4/20/15


\\ I've never doubted you believe you are a Christian \\

I've never doubted that you're not, Trav.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/20/15


Trav, my opinions are formed by scripture.
However, you don't seem to want anything except Bible.
...I have spent years studying the Bible,... ---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/15

Understand already that you don't like to use scripture.
Then at any scriptural discussion point it will be obvious why your opinion is an opinion.
You feel superior to scripture, or are misleading yourself.
Expect scripture to always "out" non scriptural opinions.
I've never doubted you believe you are a Christian and your opinions as a "monk" are holy opinions.

Jer_10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
---Trav on 4/20/15


No Trav. I do believe you have our best interests at heart. Am I wrong?
---learner2 on 4/17/15

No. You are not wrong. It wasn't clear to me if you were sincere or not. So I asked.
My passion is for those seeking freedom from the self consumed church titles (authority's who aren't) in all churches today.
Scripture searchers who are passionate and courageous enough to accept truth as it is found in scripture.

I even care about the blind authority's in the Church who are not authority's in scripture or by scripture.
Usually they declare they are my enemies for their doctrines sake. Not scriptures sake.
---Trav on 4/20/15




\\The implication is that, titling yourself a "monk" equals what?\\

Monk Brendan did not claim that title for himself.

He was given it by God through the Church.

Trav, I think you get VERY upset when people disagree with you, and don't roll over and surrender when you fire your first shot.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/18/15


Trav said, "Opinion answers about scripture reflect logic/wisdom of the world, not scripture.
... The implication is that, titling yourself a "monk" equals what? Unscriptural opinions about, Christian's questions?..."


Trav, my opinions are formed by scripture. However, you don't seem to want anything except Bible. Well, I don't have Bible verses for all my opinions. But neither do you.

I am a monk, whether you care to believe it or not. I am a Christian, whether you care to believe it or not. And I have spent years studying the Bible, despite your opinion that I am worldly.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/15


\\Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. \\

Amen!

May the blood of Jesus Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, be upon ALL of us and our descendants unto ages of ages.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/17/15


No Trav. I do believe you have our best interests at heart. Am I wrong?
---learner2 on 4/17/15


Not to be upset. Trav has our best interests at heart.
---learner2 on 4/16/15

Sarcasm, learner2?
Sheep note that scripture supporting scripture is not popular.
Ironically even less popular by Church titled exec's.
Christ was killed fulfilling prophets that verified prophets...by this type, who influenced/blinded his own people.
Mat 27:24 When Pilate ...I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Luk_12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay, but rather division:
Joh_7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
---Trav on 4/17/15


Not to be upset. Trav has our best interests at heart.
---learner2 on 4/16/15


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...Yet you have called me worldly, that my opinions are worthless, and that I am not a good Christian.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15

Opinion answers about scripture reflect logic/wisdom of the world, not scripture.
I never stated you were not a "good Christian". The implication is that, titling yourself a "monk" equals what? Unscriptural opinions about, Christian's questions?
You professed you are an oath taker dedicated to "Truth" regarding scripture declarations...perhaps we'd expect you to show scripture.
If you cannot you are just a scripturally ignorant "monk".
Not a bad Christian, just an unread, uninformed one with opinions for doctrine.
---Trav on 4/16/15


Trav said, "Need to be applicable."

But all of those verses were applicable, in that you have judged me, when you don't know anything about me except that I am a monk, and can read and write English. Yet you have called me worldly, that my opinions are worthless, and that I am not a good Christian. Yet Jesus said "judge not lest ye be judged"

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15


Trav said, "I have chose." If you are going to correct me, then I can correct you. The word is chosen, not chose.

"...
GOD used the early church and they didn't even realize they "quilled" GOD's prophecies of their own end, it's works and marks being their own gain."


You mean Peter and Paul did not know they were writing something important? (gasp)


I said the same thing earlier, you weren't listening.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15


Trav, you are hung up on me not using Scripture in my posts.
Jn 7:51
Acts 23:3...for sittest thou to judge me after the law,...

Need more?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15

Need to be applicable.
Good start weedhoppa. They don't apply but,...
Here is the point...we'll let the scriptural witness judge our opinions.
Never judged you...by any law of GOD. But, your "opinions" have no merit, on a "Christian" blog site. Expect a monk man of GOD with scripture. Opinions of a monk are not scriptural facts. Rarely even close to facts at all so far.
Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
---Trav on 4/15/15


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Trav, you are hung up on me not using Scripture in my posts.

I used Scripture in the blog on hoarding.

However, for your edification, here are some Scriptures

Matt 7:1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Jn 7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

Acts7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?

Acts 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Need more?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15


Trav ...
The Bible is the Word of God.
You choose.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/15

I have chose. I honor the GOD of Israel's fathers.
GOD used the early church and they didn't even realize they "quilled" GOD's prophecies of their own end, it's works and marks being their own gain.
Don't feel so all alone...many Denoms are your denom "marked" children.
You state Bible is the book of GOD, yet honor only your church...seldom GOD's scripture by posting scripture of it.
Which is more important...GODs scripture or your church.
Seems you've chosen and aren't aware it.

Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
---Trav on 4/15/15


I am glad that you admit that Sister White spent a lot of time studying the Bible.

We do not believe we are the only Christians. Nor do we beleive the Christian church disappeared from the world.

You know just as well as I do the Scholars from the Entire Christian church which latter split into the Orthodox and Roman Catholic set the Canon. We still have major aggements with both of them. As you know since I have personlly sided with you many times.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/14/15


\\ Which happened in the 11th Century long after the Bible had been Canonized. \\

By whom was the Bible canonized?

Who were the people who decided what was supposed to be in it, or to put it another way, who were the people God used to reveal what should be in it?

What church did they attend? It wasn't the SDA church, because it didn't exist until the mid 19th century.

BTW, are you aware that EGW assiduously studied a Bible translated by Sunday keepers?

How odd.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/14/15


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Trav said, "Bible ...is a product of the Catholic Church\\...
You two seem fine with it being a "product" to be sold and controlled"."


The Bible is the Word of God. What you seem to forget that the ONLY Christian Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity was the Catholic/Orthodox Church. The Bible that you revere is the product of the Holy Spirit, working through the quills of men, and collected and collated through that same church that you hate! You can't have it both ways, Trav, either the Bible is what it claims to be, the Word of God, or it is a pack of lies that should be discarded and dismissed.You choose.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/15


Cluny and anyone who knows history understands the Bible is not from the Roman Catholic church which was part of one church then. It was not till centuries latter that the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox church split in the Great Schism. Which happened in the 11th Century long after the Bible had been Canonized.

This is one of many lies propagated by the Roman Catholic church.

The way of the cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/13/15


\\Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
---Trav on 4/13/15\\

You're not so stupid and prejudiced that you think this is the Roman Catholic Church, are you?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/13/15


(donkey)... But it doesn't follow that every time one speaks, it's God speaking through it, right Monk Brendan?
---Cluny on 4/11/15

\\Bible ...is a product of the Catholic Church\\
You brayed the point perfectly.
Your phrase is the whole of it. Thanks.
You two seem fine with it being a "product" to be sold and controlled".
Now if you two would put scripture's with your tonsured opinions or other witnesses... donkey lipped assertions might be entertained a little. Nah, probably not even then.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
---Trav on 4/13/15


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\\GOD even used an Ass/Donkey one time to speak through.\\

But it doesn't follow that every time one speaks, it's God speaking through it, right Monk Brendan?

Now that we've had our obligatory round of BTC, can we go back to the original subject of this thread?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/11/15


Trav said, "I cannot find any starting place in history to honor them."

The Bible that you read today is a product of the Catholic Church--not a bunch of protestants that got together in 1600 to translate to English.

GOD even used an Ass/Donkey one time to speak through.

To the Catholic Church? Sorry, but that was Balaam's Ass and that was 3000 years ago.

I will admit that they have had their problems. But the problems were those of a small group of men who wanted to have political power. The Borgias and Medicis used political power to influence the Church, and not the other way around.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/11/15


Trav said, "I think we'll understand them in the end to be the widest, "wide way" of all. With her closest sisters and mother of un-orthodoxy in the ruts behind her."

All of this is just anti-Catholic bigotry that simply should not exist in this age. In the past 500 years, the Protestants have burned people at the stake, accused people of witchcraft, started civil wars, beheaded people, torn down historic churches and monasteries that were 900 years old at the time, started two World Wars, (the Protestant Germans), and I could go on, but I won't.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/11/15


Hold on there! How can you claim that catholic is a falsehood? The scriptures that you cling to were kept alive in Catholic monasteries ...
---Monk_Brendan on 4/10/15

I cannot find any starting place in history to honor them.
GOD even used an Ass/Donkey one time to speak through. catholic church worked their works for control of the world.
A shame they degraded to the point they have.
She is the greatest scriptural aberation by comparison as to what to run from.
The protestant movement as historical witness.
I think we'll understand them in the end to be the widest, "wide way" of all. With her closest sisters and mother of un-orthodoxy in the ruts behind her.
---Trav on 4/10/15


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Trav said, ""Catholic" is not reality or found as a scriptural statement.
The word "holy", has seven forms of usage. ... any form to the falsehood, "catholic"... being un-verified by scripture...men's doctrine of a "holy" falsehood."


Hold on there! How can you claim that catholic is a falsehood? The scriptures that you cling to were kept alive in Catholic monasteries when Europe had fallen into the Dark Ages. Copying and re-copying the Bible--the whole Bible was the work--the labora that I talked about in another post that kept the Bible from becoming tattered fragments of parchment and papyrus that could no longer be read.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/10/15


Trav:
You said:...over 30,000 opposed denominations. Clearly fragmented...

So what? ... all part of one universal Body of Christ ....
If this does not reflect reality, it is the Church's fault, not the creeds'.
---StrongAxe on 4/8/15

Fragmented. Your last statement sum's a confirming point. Denominational fault.
An "ecclesia" body's parts work together.
"Catholic" is not reality or found as a scriptural statement.
The word "holy", has seven forms of usage. Adding any form to the falsehood, "catholic", "universal" being un-verified by scripture...we are then reciting men's doctrine of a "holy" falsehood.
Rev 21:12.
---Trav on 4/10/15


\\If they didn't they would be false Apostles.
Prison as used in 1Peter is not translated as "hell".\\

I never said that the Apostles' Creed used the word for gehenna, did I?

In fact, I specifically said it did not.

The ICEL version, "He descended to the dead," is much more accurate.

"Prison" in 1st Peter is another name for "infernis" or "place of departed spirits."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/9/15


...1 Peter about Christ going in spirit "to preach to those in prison."

Now, how many times does the Bible have to say something in order for it to be true?
---Cluny on 4/9/15

Point is. You didn't provide any Bible. In reply either. Therefore still opinion.
Opinion is not equal to scripture. Provide two or more...then the argument is with Prophet, Christ or Apostles. Apostles honor Christ and prophets so they will always clarify the same. If they didn't they would be false Apostles.
Prison as used in 1Peter is not translated as "hell".
---Trav on 4/9/15


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Quite right. Acts 2:31 is only one such place. There is another in 1 Peter about Christ going in spirit "to preach to those in prison."

Now, how many times does the Bible have to say something in order for it to be true?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/9/15


Christ's descent into the place of departed spirits is attested many times in the NT.
---Cluny on 4/8/15

Exactly... mine being the easier to understand ...vs the devious and or ignorant "un-ortho/roman c" church doctrines.

Your "many" (ha), un-posted scriptures defined and made this a non-debate.

You've "attested" and "departed".

Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in ("hah'-dace or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave), neither his flesh did see corruption.

Why didn't you just let "cluny" your cat defend? Or did he?
---Trav on 4/9/15


\\(which would be either "ecumenekos" or "kosmikos")\\

Actually that should be transliterated as OIKOUMENEKOS.

Sorry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/9/15


In Greek, the word "katholikos" does not mean "universal" (which would be either "ecumenekos" or "kosmikos") but rather consensus, communion, and conciliarity.

In the Latin text of the Apostles' Creed, the phrase reads, "descendit in infernis," which simply means "the lower regions", and not gehenna.

Christ's descent into the place of departed spirits is attested many times in the NT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/8/15


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Trav:

You said: Respectfully StrongAxe, Universal doctrines have over 30,000 different opposed denominations. Clearly it's fragmented in doctrines.

So what? The creed says "holy catholic and apostolic church", not "holy Catholic and apostolic church". The fact that many Christians seem to be more comfortable in splinter groups does not alter the fact that Christians are all part of one universal Body of Christ which Jesus himself taught, and which the creeds themselves affirm. If this does not reflect reality, it is the Church's fault, not the creeds'.
---StrongAxe on 4/8/15


...If Jesus hung out with publicans during his life, why should we object... Is there anything Jesus can't or won't forgive?
---StrongAxe on 4/8/15

Exactly. He came to heal the sick, not the tonsured.
I was being sarcastic in that Brendan stated the "creeds" are to smoke out the //soviet/Nazi/Roman/whoever) spy//, who couldn't recite his heresy "creed".
Maybe his unknown Nazi/whoever sitting beside him is a "sheep". But, then again "sheep" are perceptive to danger.
Mat_9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

(Yes, there are things he doesn't forgive)
---Trav on 4/8/15


Trav:
You said: Specific hand of men: GOD, prophet or Christ never uses or implies the word "catholic" ...
Bible speaks of the Body of Christ. There is only one. As such, it is universal, and not fragmented.
---StrongAxe on 4/8/15

Respectfully StrongAxe, Universal doctrines have over 30,000 different opposed denominations. Clearly it's fragmented in doctrines.
catholic/ortho/anglican ecumenical church falsely assume they are the "only" church "body".
GOD, Christ, Prophets or 11 Apostles never mention a universal/catholic "body of Christ". What is promised and declared, is the "New Covenant" Jer 31:31/Heb 8:8, to same body of people under the "Old Covenant".
---Trav on 4/8/15


Trav:

You said: Specific hand of men: GOD, prophet or Christ never uses or implies the word "catholic" or its "universal" meaning.

The Bible speaks of the Body of Christ. There is only one. As such, it is universal, and not fragmented.

You wouldn't want a publican or re-publican sitting next to you...heaven forbid.

If Jesus hung out with publicans during his life, why should we object to doing so in the afterlife? Is there anything Jesus can't or won't forgive?
---StrongAxe on 4/8/15


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...merely human doctrine that appears in either the Apostles' or Nicene Creed.
Be specific.
---Cluny on 4/7/15

Specific: this creed is Man-made 325 AD or so in the ignorant, flat earth periods. Used for heresy. Making themselves the heretics in irony. Still.
Apostles/Nicene Creed
Heretic Error. #4. ..., dead and buried: He descended into hell:
Specific hand of ignorant 2 century AD men: Scripture does not say he descended into an implied "hell". Heavily misinterpreted referring to "grave", earth.

#9. I believe in the holy catholic church: ...
Specific hand of men: GOD, prophet or Christ never uses or implies the word "catholic" or its "universal" meaning.
---Trav on 4/7/15


... Cliff, you seem to misunderstand what the Creeds are about. ...we can use to see if this person is really a Christian,...a way of assuring us that the people sitting/standing next to us are believers, not some (soviet/Nazi/Roman/whoever) spy ...
---Monk_Brendan on 4/7/15

Wow. As stated previous Cliff...still used for Heresy by the un-orthodox and cath-olics. You wouldn't want a publican or re-publican sitting next to you...heaven forbid. Or a "sheep"...imagine the horror of it! The secrets they might learn in scripture! (No worry there)
Luk_18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
---Trav on 4/7/15


I said, "However, Cliff, you seem to misunderstand what the Creeds are about. They are a touchstone that we can use to see if this person is really a Christian, or just flapping his yap."

And I repeat, the Creeds are not rote prayers that we say to "bolster" our faith. The Creeds are a touchstone--a way of assuring us that the people sitting/standing next to us are believers, and not some (soviet/Nazi/Roman/whoever) spy trying to find out if this church is Christian, with the idea of persecuting the people in that church.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/7/15


\\Having elements of truth in them, they also have man's doctrine on them.\\

Please name a merely human doctrine that appears in either the Apostles' or Nicene Creed.

Be specific.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/7/15


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I noticed that you did not answer my question, either, Trav.
---Cluny on 4/6/15

Notice that you still remain fearfully silent, to Steveng's question.
Your "Creed's" are not written in scripture, recited by the Apostles, Prophets or Christ.
Having elements of truth in them, they also have man's doctrine on them.
They are no substitute for belief and reciting them does not constitute a faith.
Steveng asked what you believe, are you afraid to answer him?
Think you are waiting for others to commit.
Very well, having no shame, an all prophets for witnesses.
i confess that: Yehshua the Christ, Son of YHWH has come as Lord and messiah to fulfill all spoken of by GOD the prophets and himself.
---Trav on 4/6/15


I noticed that you did not answer my question, either, Trav.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/6/15


Reciting someone else's creed does not make it your own.

Can you speak from your heart the reasons why YOU believe instead of reciting someone else's reason to believe?
---Steveng on 3/30/15

It is a silent statement evidently that he cannot.
He is utterly consumed by his "man created", "orthodox-cath-olic denomination. Established for the universal control of universal men. One world ecumenical goals.

They succeeded beyond their wildest intentions with the ole boy.
Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
---Trav on 4/6/15


Let me repeat my original question.

Are the proposition of the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds true?

Yes or No.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/15


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\\Psalm 136, is not a reciting, or chant, it is a listing of mercies, prophecy fulfilled and fulfilling. 26 times the word "for ever" is used should even cause orthodoc's to pause ..."For-ever".
Psa 136:22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.\\

Matter of fact, that's sung at Matins on Sundays and Feasts.

At our church we also sing it for a Communion hymn.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/31/15


Reciting someone else's creed does not make it your own. Can you speak from your heart the reasons why YOU believe instead of reciting someone else's reason to believe?
---Steveng on 3/30/15


Show where He DID condemn.

Not all repetitions are vain. Otherwise, Psalm 136 (Hebrew) would not be in the Bible.
---Cluny on 3/27/15

Posted scripture where Christ condemned. Scriptural pictures of the catholic/orthodox robes and prayers. Throw in Billions of "rosary beads" like Steveng listed.

Not necessary to try again. Your opinion had no scriptural basis to begin with, except against you.
Psalm 136, is not a reciting, or chant, it is a listing of mercies, prophecy fulfilled and fulfilling. 26 times the word "for ever" is used should even cause orthodoc's to pause ..."For-ever".
Psa 136:22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
---Trav on 3/30/15


What seems to be missing in this thread is my original point.

Maybe I should paraphrase it.

Are the doctrines of the classical Creeds (Apostles' and Nicene) true?

Which are not? Why?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/30/15


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Cluny wrote: "It's not that the prayer formulas were meaningless.

It' that the people used them in a meaningless way."

The people who recite the "prayer formulas" were taught that it works. Many people really believe that it works, but believe in vain. Satan is having a field day with these people because he knows it doesn't work.
---Steveng on 3/29/15


It's not that the prayer formulas were meaningless.

It' that the people used them in a meaningless way.

Glory to Jesus Chirst!
---Cluny on 3/28/15


Cluny wrote: "How do you know, STeveng?"

It's all there in the bible. You should read it sometime and know the truth. Read the bible through the eyes of a child without your worldly knowledge get in the way.

Cluny wrote: "Has God granted to you the ability to look into other people's hearts?

I really doubt it."

Besides, didn't God allow Peter to read the hearts of Ananias?
---Steveng on 3/28/15


Steveng wrote: These repeat the same words many times comes from the head and not the heart
Cluny wrote: Has God granted to you the ability to look into other people's hearts?

I can't speak for everyone, but I remember from my Catholic childhood, when one went to confession, and the priest assigned a penance of "say five Hail Marys and two Our Fathers" (say), one would rattle them off as fast as the tongue could go, just to get out of there as quickly as possible. The constant repetition of the same prayers over and over again turned them into a meaningless formula.


Rita_H: Exactly!
---StrongAxe on 3/28/15


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\\ These repeat the same words many times comes from the head and not the heart, \\

How do you know, STeveng?

Has God granted to you the ability to look into other people's hearts?

I really doubt it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/15


Steveng - I have never been convinced that we are supposed to regularly recite 'the Lord's Prayer'. We are not told to pray those actual words but are told to 'pray in this manner' I feel that when Jesus prayed that way He was just showing us HOW to pray and that we should use each line as a heading (in our thoughts) as to the things we need to pray for.

We can all recite the prayer without giving any of it a single thought but, if we think about the words of each line and then pray in our own words as we go through it line by line, we'll have covered everything. Eventually we won't need the heading reminders as to what we are to pray about.
---Rita_H on 3/28/15


The Lord's prayer,
Vain repititions,
The rosery, and
Creeds, oh my.

These repeat the same words many times comes from the head and not the heart, using the same words over and over again. If a christian cannot speak from the heart, from the spirit, their words are in vain. If a christian cannot express him or herself their spiritual beliefs from the heart he or she risks not believing what they say after a while which will be easier for them to fall away from the faith.

True prayer is comminicating with God on a personal level - sharing our thoughts, requests, cares and praise with Him. Repeating someone elses words becomes rote and ritual rather than building a relationship with God.
---Steveng on 3/28/15


\\There were "rote prayers" in the Temple ... Jesus, ... took leading roles.
He NEVER condemned this liturgical practice.
---Cluny on 3/25/15

Prove it.
Show scripture specifically detailing your "opinion"\\

Show where He DID condemn.

Not all repetitions are vain. Otherwise, Psalm 136 (Hebrew) would not be in the Bible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/15


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There were "rote prayers" in the Temple ... Jesus, ... took leading roles.
He NEVER condemned this liturgical practice.
---Cluny on 3/25/15

Prove it.
Show scripture specifically detailing your "opinion"....

Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. ...
Mat_23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, enlarge the borders of their garments,
---Trav on 3/27/15


How is a pagan prayer wheel like the classical Christian creed?

1stCliff, do you ever sing the same hymn more than once in your church?

How about repeated praise choruses?

Only if you don't do these things are you in a position to criticize repeated prayer formulae with the slander of "rote".

There were "rote prayers" in the Temple and Synagogues, and Jesus not only participated in them, but took leading roles. And He NEVER condemned this liturgical practice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/15


1stcliff:

You said: I see no reason to recite them ,as if I need "bolstering" my faith in Christ !

By the same reasoning, there is no need to go to church every week either.
---StrongAxe on 3/25/15


Brendan, Understand the "creeds" I do !
I see no reason to recite them ,as if I need "bolstering" my faith in Christ !
The "rosary" is repetitious and meaningless as well.

Hindus have prayer wheels in which they place a prayer and each revolution is considered "spoken" volunteers spend the day spinning these wheels believing their god is impressed , Not my God !
---1stcliff on 3/25/15


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1st Cliff said, " Cluny, I believe all those things, just don't believe in reciting them by "rote""

I for one do not recite them by rote. I pay attention to each phrase, and when I speak them, I mean them.

However, Cliff, you seem to misunderstand what the Creeds are about. They are a touchstone that we can use to see if this person is really a Christian, or just flapping his yap.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/24/15


My point, which 1stCliff is missing, is that each point of the classical Creeds is supported by Scripture.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/15


Cluny:

You asked: 1stCliff, if you reject the Creeds, am I to assume that you do NOT believe in God the Father and Creator, that you do NOT believe that Jesus Christ is His Only-begotten Son Who took flesh, died, and rose from the dead for our salvation?

This is a logical fallacy. If the creed says "X, Y, and Z", and you reject it, it doesn't mean you reject ALL of X, Y, and Z. It is sufficient to reject only one of these. There are many Christian groups who agree with most common Christian teachings, differing in only one point, or a few small points.
---StrongAxe on 3/18/15


Cluny, I believe all those things, just don't believe in reciting them by "rote"
---1stcliff on 3/18/15


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1stCliff, if you reject the Creeds, am I to assume that you do NOT believe in God the Father and Creator, that you do NOT believe that Jesus Christ is His Only-begotten Son Who took flesh, died, and rose from the dead for our salvation?

That you do NOT believe in His Ascension or imminent personal Return? That you do NOT believe in the Holy Spirit, the general Resurrection and Judgement?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/15


The Apostles' Creed (or Symbol) is called thus because it's a summary of the Apostles' teaching.

Are you familiar with it?

If not, don't knock it. It's actually older than the agreed upon list of books of the NT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/15


Cluny, BCV where one can read the Nicene or Apostles' creed !
---1stcliff on 3/17/15


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