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Who Are The Elect

Please explain the scriptures concerning the elect of God and predestination? What is correct? Arminian or Calvinist view point? Did God pre-choose us or are we elect in as much as He knows the future? or did He actually choose some for damnation and some for salvation? Is it based on free will?

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... As trav got into here, Can a sheep become a goat ? or a goat a sheep ?
---RichardC on 4/7/15

Can't find a prophet or scripture that state they can change form.
See that active "Faith" receives it's requests...
Mat 15:24, Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying,(son of David) Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
---Trav on 4/7/15


Trav,
You are therefore a liar, as anyone can see.
---Warwick on 4/6/15

My posted scripture never lies. Many posted opportunity's for you since your last accusation. Again you take a cowards way out to re-pair a continual loss of faces.
Won't work.
At the Genesis of this you accused me in a broad based lie of my posted beliefs!
Yet you couldn't present any for proof!!
Your self posted lack of integrity, now publicly posted again, "No Proof".
All Christ words and all Prophets even the Apostles were against you then. Even as blind as you are in your doctrines you had enough concern to fear them or were concerned over your next extreme loss of face before them.
The latter being the more evident.
---Trav on 4/7/15


David : A gift

What comes to mind here is even in this day and age 50% of the world has never heard of the Bible, And where does faith come from, faith comes from hearing, and hearing of the word of God, So how can the Gift be given to all ? Baptism there's two , One water, done by man, the other spirit done by God, and that the one that saves, Born again, Repent which I do believe is a integral part, Still a work on our part, A part of faith,and being in the flesh a man can still falter, As trav got into here, Can a sheep become a goat ? or a goat a sheep ?
---RichardC on 4/7/15


Yes God did create the 24hr day ... Do you imagine He sleeps at night?
---Warwick on 4/6/15

Never considered. But, he can if he wants too, he's GOD. What your fears show and we both know is your doctrine is canceled by scriptures more and more as we study along.
A sheep is a sheep and verified scripturally as sheep more than you can bear.
A thousand years is a lot of days and can be considered as an age or as one "yesterday" to GOD, according to David. While you are mired down in your own Genesis...GOD's sheep are many books ahead of you hearing, seeking ... and finding their shepherd. Baaa, Baaaaa
Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
---Trav on 4/7/15


I think the verse is address to the one's that been given the gift -RichardC on 4/6/15

Richard
A gift is free, but isn't there a reason we give and receive gifts? Don't we give gifts to those who are in our favor? Don't we receive gifts from them, because we are in their favor? And isn't there a reason for that favor?

God gives gifts for the same reason, he gives to those who are in his favor. And in (John 14:21), Jesus tells us the way, the reason, for his favor. That way is through our obedience.

(Acts 2:38) is an example which clearly proves this.
Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---David on 4/7/15




Trav, when someone makes a claim then will not back it up, and again makes the same claim and refuses to back it up, and again...that's called 'false pretences.' Or better it is a lie.

You have made the false claim over and over that I will not address your Scriptures but repeatedly refuse to give even one example.

You are therefore a liar, as anyone can see.
---Warwick on 4/6/15


David. You seem to be rejecting Christ's commandment that we believe on him. You seem to see this commandment as nothing tangible as you look instead for some ambiguous minimum level of physical good deeds.

John 6:29 tells us our works are to believe on Jesus.
James 2 uses the example of helping the hungry and naked as works that shows our faith. And this is all spiritual.

Works that shows our faith is believing on Jesus (John 6:29) and manifests as letting our light (Christ) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost who are the spiritually hungry lacking Christ our SPIRITUAL food (1Cor 10:3), and the spiritually naked who lack the garment of salvation, Isa 61:10, Rev 16:15.
---Haz27 on 4/6/15


... 'massage' it to fit with your pet nonBiblical ideas. ---Warwick on 4/6/15

My "pet" scriptural witnesses rattle you bad. They should. Your doctrine has never once addressed them, here or anywhere. Listening, I can hear your teeth grinding in the background.
Fearful of the "GOD of Israel" ...I'll leave man's imaginary doctrines to you.
Eye massage these "specific"scriptures while I sleep.

Isa_43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine.

Isa_45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

(Imagine that)
---Trav on 4/6/15


Trav, understand the meaning of "scoffers" and see the irony, as it refers to you. I trust God's word while you often 'massage' it to fit with your pet nonBiblical ideas. I may scoff at some men's ideas but you scoff at God. Two Peter 3:8 says God is eternal, therefore not bound by time, not living days of any length"with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." One cancels the other. Psalm 94 has the same meaning.

Yes God did create the 24hr day but that was on this earth, for man, he existed for all eternity before that, dayless. Do you imagine He sleeps at night?
---Warwick on 4/6/15


David : Why not give it to Everybody ?

Why save anybody,for all have sin, Limited atonement ? If some one just believes they can get themselves save, It would seem to be a work on on the person part, I think your right, Ephesians 2:8 ------> saved thought faith, and not of yourselves, So is true faith and believing the act of God working in a person ? You have a verse like Romans 12:3 - measure of faith, To everybody or Gods elect and chosen ? I think the verse is address to the one's that been given the gift, Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believeth, ( Has God change a mans heart, so he has faith ? Like in Ezekiel 36:26 ) This is what I ponder and wonder about, John 3:27
---RichardC on 4/6/15




Trav,
Peter writes to "scoffers" ...
---Warwick on 4/3/15

Perfectly, you fit Peters term "scoffer" here.
Peter and King David explain to Israels "sheep". GOD is not restricted to your "man" standard. GOD's day can be an "age", one thousand years or 24 hours. He created "our" day he has no day and yet has all of them.
You can't allow GOD doing anything you can't logic. Amazing.
Your GOD by your extensive testimony is "you". GOD must obey your logic in your/this world. Not you his, because it's a mysterious and a sheep parable.
Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
---Trav on 4/6/15


Yes, the thief met those requirements.
---Haz27 on 4/4/15

Here are 4 red letter un-discussed, un-preached, un-taught requirements the thief also met in contrast the the other malefactor.

Joh_10:4 when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me:
And a testimony:
1Pe_2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
---Trav on 4/6/15


But his belief, a Gift from God, He belief that Christ was Lord, RichardC

Richard
If you tell someone, "If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, you will be saved", you have given them a requirement, a requirement which saves them.

Your doctrine teaches, "You must believe to be saved", but also says, you are not saved by what you do. Confusing.

You teach, if someone believes, they will be saved. If this is true, they can save themselves by what they do. Where as I teach obedience brings Grace, and you are saved by Gods Grace.

If it is a gift, why doesn't God give it to everyone?
---David on 4/6/15


Did the thief meet these requirements?---David.

Yes, the thief met those requirements. He obeyed the commandment to believe on Jesus, thus his robes were washed in the blood of the lamb, Rev 22:14. That thief had right to the tree of life.

Through Christ his Lord, that thief had access by faith into the grace in which he stands, Rom 5:2.

David, your suggestion that that thief was not saved is not supported by scripture.
---Haz27 on 4/4/15


David: Save the other man Too!

It's Grace ! the thief did nothing to get himself saved, that I can see ! But his belief, a Gift from God, He belief that Christ was Lord, this goes to the heart of this whole blog, A undeserving man was saved ! One in the field taken, the other left behind , God made a decision, Gave a man Grace, thought faith, the other not, It is perplexing, Have you got another insight into this ?
---RichardC on 4/4/15


Rom 10:9 if you CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Haz
Again, where is G-R-A-C-E in your teaching?
You, like Richard, are saying we are saved by Faith.

Faith.... is in the equation, but faith does not save us, Faith is accredited to us. Paul did not teach Abraham's faith saved him, he taught his faith was credited to him. Why did Paul teach credited faith? Because this is how we grow in Gods Grace.

If we are saved when we Call upon the name of the Lord, aren't you teaching folks, they can save themselves by what they do?
---David on 4/5/15


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The Thief was saved by Grace. He could do nothing to save himself he was dying.

The Grace of GOD could save him since he accepted Jesus and looked to him.

The other thief did not believe.

Grace saves us by cleansing us from sin and making us Born Again by the power of the Holy Spirit which then works in us to love others and GOD so we then obey GOD.

Jesus is risen.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/5/15


Thanks Haz, the 125 limit makes it hard to explain complicated things so as not to be misunderstood.

I believe you are correct about being washed in the blood of the lamb. If in faith we draw closer to the cross we will be enveloped by His love and can put our trust in him for righteousness, a full life, and real contentment. We do this by focussing on following His commands for how we should live.

You referred to John 6:40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Amen!
---Warwick on 4/4/15


David. To add further to Rev 22:14, note below Rev 12:10,11
Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB and by the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY

Rom 10:9
if you CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

This is all consistent with Christ's command that we believe on him, John 3:16. It's consistent with the will of God, John 6:40.

Christians keep Christ's command to believe on him, thus our robes have been washed in the blood of the lamb.
---Haz27 on 4/4/15


The thief believed Christ was Lord, Is this not why he was saved ?-RichardC on 4/3/15

(Ephesians 2:8) For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves

Richard
The answer to your question is NO. My friend, there's one glaring omission in your salvation equation, that omission is G-R-A-C-E.
We are saved by Grace through faith, we are not saved, by faith.

You claim the thief was saved, by faith. Now if the thief was saved by Grace, and he didn't do anything to merit the Lords favor, why didn't Jesus save the other man too?
---David on 4/4/15


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Thanks Warwick. I did mean God is outside time, but 125 word limit stopped me.

David, note how Rev 22:14 is worded in most Bible translations. Douy Rhiems for example:
Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb

How did we wash our robes in the blood?
We keep Christ's commandment (John 3:16, 1John 3:23), and God's will (John 6:40), to believe on him, just as that thief on the cross also did.

And this is what the good fight of faith is about, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless, 1Tim 6:12-14.

BTW, Jesus is the tree of life.
---Haz27 on 4/3/15


Trav, you quoted 2Pe_3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." And "Some, just can't deal with a thousand year day, of GOD." Yes we can't, because it is not Biblical!

Peter does not say God has days of any length, knowing He is eternal i.e. outside of time! Taking it your way would have us believing each of God's days are literally 1,000 years long, and each and His 1,000 years are but 1 day long! This is nonsense. Peter writes to "scoffers" who asked where is (Jesus 2nd) coming, pointing out God is not limited by our timing.
---Warwick on 4/3/15


But a day unto the Lord is as 1000 years. There is the physical realm and the spiritual realm.
---Haz27 on 4/2/15

Thousand years to GOD is like one day is to us.

Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Very plain and obvious, with GOD being eternal. David clarify's first and explains both scriptures.
Some, just can't deal with a thousand year day, of GOD. Gods Genesis 1 days were GOD's days... proving all that we find witness of today, yesterday, tomorrow etc.
---Trav on 4/3/15


David the thief was saved. All the righteous, Jesus did were applied to him.

He became a newborn baby. As far as GOD was concered had never sinned. Not only that he witnessed to Jesus when all around him others were attacking or in grief. He recognized Jesus and testified of him.

He sleeps now in the grave but will rise in the resurrection of the righteous. This was a death bed conversion.

Had he lived he would have lived for Jesus and followed him.

Yes we who are saved are born again to keep the Commandments of GOD. Because that is our new nature. To be loving, caring and selfless.

The Holy Spirit changes us into the saints that the Righteouness of Christ has Justified us to be.

Jesus is risen.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/3/15


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David: But not for the reason you think

This begs the Question - The thief Believe Christ was Lord, Is this not why he was saved ? His faith was counted as Righteousness , Works a contributing factor, Thief was saved by Faith, and good works would of follow if he live ?
---RichardC on 4/3/15


Haz, you wrote "But a day unto the Lord is as 1000 years." This part-quote gives the idea that God lives in time, as we do, just in different length days. In reality God is eternal therefore lives completely outside of time.

The full quote shows this: "But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day" 2 Peter 3:8. If you read the paragraph you will see Peter means that a day is not 1,000 years, nor is 1,000 years one day, to God.
---Warwick on 4/2/15


But why do you claim that thief is not saved in spite of Jesus saying "today YOU WILL BE WITH ME in paradise"?-Haz27

(Revelation 22:14) Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Haz
According to the above verse, what gives those the right to eat from the Tree of life? Did the thief meet these requirements?

Now with that said, I want you to know, I fully believe the Lord took the Thief to paradise. But not for the reason you think.
---David on 4/3/15


/If the Lord ascended into Heaven the day he died on the cross, why does (Acts 1-11) say Jesus ascended into Heaven, more than 40 days after he was crucified?\-David on 4/2/15
Jesus physically ascended into Heaven 40 days afterward.
This reminds me of the Othordox saying about where Jesus was during those 3 days.
Cluny could give you that better than I could.
The confusion still abounds between the physical and the spiritual.
---micha9344 on 4/3/15


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Trav, .
The proof is there for all to see, that you are the challenged one.
---Warwick on 4/2/15

You started this with an unprovable accusation. You were the first challenged to prove your lie. This fact slapped your posting lips off. You couldn't, you got mad.
I asked you then why you never addressed the hundreds of scripture post in the last few years. You couldn't challenge, it was scripture.
I told you too address "all" scriptural posts I post from here forward to anyone about Israel. You can't, it's scripture.
Scripture is a living, in motion sheep hunt running over your man doc witness for years and eternity, because of "Scriptural witnesses".
"Get behind" or run along.
---Trav on 4/3/15


But a day unto the Lord is as 1000 years. There is the physical realm and the spiritual realm.
Consider also Luke 17:20 The kingdom of God does NOT COME WITH OBSERVATION, ...
---Haz27 on 4/2/15

Good stuff Haz27. I seen a glimpse of this witnessing yours searching angels yesterday.
...We are lower than angels being a physical, earthy now...but, saints will judge angels being the greater after.
Christ supports in that he could ask the Father for Angels...reaffirming the order.
Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels,...
1Pe_3:22 Who is gone into heaven, ...
---Trav on 4/3/15


David. You limit yourself by physical view of time. But a day unto the Lord is as 1000 years. There is the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Christians are in both at the same time. Thus we see Christ's physical form asending later, although spiritually he is already in the kingdom.

Consider also Luke 17:20 The kingdom of God does NOT COME WITH OBSERVATION, nor will they say, See here! or See there! For indeed, the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU.

But why do you claim that thief is not saved in spite of Jesus saying "today YOU WILL BE WITH ME in paradise"?

That thief on the cross was spiritually in God's kingdom after he believed on Jesus, confessing him as Lord.
---Haz27 on 4/2/15


David...
Conclusion of Deut 32:8.
GOD is Israels witness, as immediately seen in the next verse: Deu 32:9 For the LORD'S portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
New Covenant verifys total continuation of Deu 39, in Heb 8:8.
Clarification that GOD knew would be needed, is provided in multiple witnesses.
The lost sheep people, are significantly not sought for by those found scripturally to be false pastors, posers, hirelings etc.

Hos 1:10 ...there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 1Jn_3:1.
There is a path line, Gen thru Rev, GOD's markers, signs and way points are on every foot of it. Thousands of verses.
---Trav on 4/2/15


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It's like separating wheat from wheat.
---David on 3/31/15

Beyond Gen 1 speculations, our Christ our Lord is referring to Gen 2 Adam.
Israel is scripturally connected to this Adam... like Christ/Adam is specifically connected to "all" Israel. Hmmmm.
"All" Israel being the subject people mentioned almost 5,000 times from Genesis through Revelations. Hmmmm.
More noteworthy and a scriptural sign/mark, is that the preacher teachers today rarely speak of Israel.
To do so one must include GOD's prophets. Notice the unseen posted prophets witness here? By multiples ... never.
Prophet connections just in one chapter of Acts as example:
Acts 13: 17,23,24,26,32,33,39.
Isa 8:20.
---Trav on 4/2/15


Luke 23: 43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise, --RichardC

Richard & Haz
If the Lord, by saying "Today you will be with me in paradise", meant the Thief was saved, wouldn't this mean he went to Heaven the day he died on the cross?

If the Lord ascended into Heaven the day he died on the cross, why does (Acts 1-11) say Jesus ascended into Heaven, more than 40 days after he was crucified?
---David on 4/2/15


Trav, you are such a hypocrite. You keep moaning on about Scriptures you say I will not address but when challenged cannot provide even one! This is dishonesty.

Then I ask you a question as to whether Gentiles (those who are not Jews, not of Judah or of Benjamin etc) can be saved and what do we get from you NOTHING!

The proof is there for all to see, that you are the challenged one.
---Warwick on 4/2/15


David, Scripture 1, logic 2.

Genesis ch. 1 begins "In the beginning": the 6th day after "the beginning" God made man and woman-vs 1:27 chronologically the first people.
In 1 Corinthians 15:45 this man is "Adam."
Genesis ch.2 begins, saying Creation was finished so what follows refers back to the 6-day creation.
So "Adam" of ch. 2 is the same Adam, the first man created, as per ch. 1:27.

Paul writes only "the first (chronologically) man Adam."

Remember Matthew 10: 6-8 when speaking of the making of Adam and Eve Jesus makes His case by quoting from Genesis ch.1:27, and 2:24, which shows He believed the man and woman of 1:27 are the same man and woman, of 2:24.
---Warwick on 4/1/15


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Thanks RichardC for quoting Luke 23 on the thief's salvation in going to paradise with Christ.

David, you seem to be following a complicated error doctrine of works that leads people away from the simplicity of the gospel of Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
---Haz27 on 4/1/15


Thief on the cross saved ?

Luke 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23: 43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise,
---RichardC on 4/1/15


Trav
Great find!!
It's like separating wheat from wheat.

Noticeable silence from Warwick...
---David on 3/31/15

Great analogy.
Extending scripture through Revelations 21.
Little history. He run from this scripture post for years. Notice you provoked a reply this morning but, apparently holman is his resort to god of defense.
While some scriptures give him pause...they have the opposite effect one would expect.
If one argues with GOD's scriptural prophets... what union and what conclusion can there ever be?
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
---Trav on 4/1/15


James 2 works, these are not physical, as even non Christians offer such help to needy. How would that differentiate the lost from Christians?-Haz27

Haz
The Bible says many are called, but few are chosen. Aren't the many who are called, but not chosen,.. lost?
Why do you think God calls the many, even though they may not eventually be chosen?

The thief on cross was obedient. -Haz

Where does the bible say the thief on the cross was saved?

---David on 4/1/15


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David. I say same as Rom 6:16, "obedience unto righteousness". The thief on cross was obedient. He obeyed God's will to believe in Jesus, John 6:40. He obeyed Christ's command to believe on him, John 3:16. Thus his faith was counted as righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Re James 2 works, these are not physical, as even non Christians offer such help to needy. How would that differentiate the lost from Christians?

Works that shows our faith is believing on Jesus (John 6:29) and manifests as letting our light (Christ) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost who are the spiritually hungry lacking Christ our SPIRITUAL food (1Cor 10:3), and the spiritually naked who lack the garment of salvation, Isa 61:10, Rev 16:15.
---Haz27 on 3/31/15


That was suppose to say
Does Paul say in (Romans 6:16) "Obedience leads to righteousness", or what you teach, "Righteousness leads to Obedience?
---David on 3/31/15


David. Rom 6:16 tells us that obedience (obeying God's will that we believe on Jesus

Haz
Does Paul say in (Romans 6:16) "Obedience leads to righteousness", or what I teach, "Righteousness leads to obedience"?

BTW, your answer to my question was ambiguous..--Haz27

Haz
Notice James, gives the example I gave, of rendering help to those in need as faith, in (James 2:14-17)
"If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, without giving them those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
---David on 3/31/15


David. Rom 6:16 tells us that obedience (obeying God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40, obeying Christ's commandment that we believe on him, John 3:16) unto righteousness. And this righteousness by faith, believing on Jesus, is confirmed in Rom 4:5 that our faith is counted for righteousness.

But I'm still wondering if you're disobeying by turning back to works of law for righteousness.

BTW, your answer to my question was ambiguous. You simply gave a non specific reply that whatever we do in faith is works that show our faith.

But Jesus was specific and said our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.
---Haz27 on 3/30/15


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Scott said, "This is where defining choosing has some issues. Choosing some for damnation has an act of willfulness in seeing people go to hell in the definition. That is completely false, agreed ...He has created someone perfectly and fully knows that he will not surrender himself to the gospel. But God is perfect love, thus He can give all the favor and attention that would get someone to salvation even if he knows that person will not surrender to God. "

Scott, God HAS chosen all of us for salvation. It is hot His choice that some people end up damned. It is the free will of that person that he has chosen not to follow God.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/30/15


David - Leads us to righteousness

David - Are you not dealing here with people that have been already saved in Romans 6:15 ? and Obedience to Righteousness is just the out come ? Go down to - Romans 6:18 - being free from sin, became, ye became servant of righteousness,

Roman 6:22 - But now being made free from sin, and become servants of God, ye have the fruit unto holiness, and everlasting life,

Romans 5:19 - For one man's disobedience, many were made sinner, So by obedience of one shall be Made righteous,

Also check out Romans 5:17 - -----> Grace and the Gift of Righteousness,
---RichardC on 3/30/15


What "acts of righteousness" do you claim are needed to prove that we're righteous? Scripture please. --Haz27

Haz
Good question!
Faith is based on a promise, and our faith is based on the promise of Jesus Christ in (John 14:21). Anything you do, believing in the Lords promise, is an act of faith.
Jesus spoke of this promise in (Luke 24:49).

Now I have a question for you.

(Romans 6:16) Know ye not that to whomever ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye become whom ye obey, whether of sin which leads unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In the above verse, what does Paul say leads us to righteousness?
---David on 3/30/15


David. I saw in one of your posts that you call unclean what God has cleansed.
Believers have been cleansed by Christ's blood, yet you continue to preach that they're sinners needing repentance.

You quote scripture about keeping the commandments but then you fail to say which ones. From experience I find those like you refer to the ministry of condemnation/death written and engraved in stones, 2Cor 3:7.

BTW, what "aid" to the needy do you suggest are works that shows our faith? What "acts of righteousness" do you claim are needed to prove that we're righteous? Scripture please.
---Haz27 on 3/29/15


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Haz
How long does it take before we are chosen?
That time period is entirely up to God, for he is the one who chooses, who he calls Son.

As for me, I came to the Lord when I turned 41 years old. I did not come seeking Eternal life, I came seeking a better way of life. Christians are always saying how good the life in Christ is, so I came, to see if that part was true.

I confessed my sin before the Lord, and suddenly, there was a spiritual awakening, and somehow I knew what was right and wrong in the eyes of God.(Romans 2:14-15)

I simply followed those commands the Holy Spirit put into my mind. It started on August 12 and approximately 6 months later, I was born of God (1 John 3:9-10) KJV.
---David on 3/29/15


David : The obedience leads us to Righteousness ?

Philippians 3:9 - And being found in him, Not having my own righteousness , which is of the law, but that which is though the faith of Christ, the righteousness which which is of God by faith,

( David - I get it's faith - obedience then I think would be a product of faith, )

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship: created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them,

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags , and we all do fade as a leaf: and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away,

At the end of Romans 6:16 , There is a question mark
---RichardC on 3/29/15


Haz
To summarize.
I believe we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit can lead us to do that which is righteous in the eyes of God. That which we are led "to do", or "not to do" by the Holy Spirit.

The "do not do" laws we are led, not to do, are basically the Laws of Moses (Sins of commission).

The "to do" laws we receive, are acts of righteousness, basically these are acts of love, which will involve rendering aid to those in need.

These commands are all called, "The Law of Christ". And if we keep these commands he puts into our minds, through his Holy Spirit, God will come to love us. This obedience leads us to righteousness (Romans 6:16).
---David on 3/29/15


David. Christ's 2 commandments that John 14:21 refers to are the we believe on him (consistent with our works, John 6:29), and to love one another (John 15:12, 1John 3:23).

Rom 2:7 "doing good" refers to believing on Jesus.
Matt 10:22 "enduring to the end" also refers to believing on Jesus. This is our good fight of faith, 1Tim 6:12.
Rev 2:26 "keeps my works" refers to believing on Jesus.

You have not shown anything from scripture that goes beyond what I said in my first post.
If I recall correctly, you preach a mix of works of the law, with grace. Rom 11:6 says we CANNOT do this. The law is NOT of faith, Gal 3:12.
---Haz27 on 3/28/15


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How is that not trying to do good works to get into Heaven?-RichardC

(John 14:21) He that hath My commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves Me, and he that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him.

Richard
The reason Jesus says we keep his commands, is love, and what we receive for keeping his commands, is the love of God the Father.

Jesus does not offer salvation for our works, he offers love. Which is why Paul taught we are "saved by Grace".

When you go to work, do you go because you love your boss, or because you expect payment?
When you came to Jesus, did you do it because you loved God, or because you expected to be saved?
---David on 3/28/15


Haz27 - Our work is to believe

Or is it or the will of God?

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent,

( Now some have this as man's work, At this point I see it as God work that one believes )

Philippians 1:29 - For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake,
---RichardC on 3/28/15


Of course this then raises the question what amount of works does God require of us? Nobody offers any scripture detailing this-Haz27 on 3/27/15


(Romans 2:6-7) God, who will render to each one according to his deeds, Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality,

(Matthew 10:22) And you will be hated by all for My names sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

(Revelation 2:26) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end..


In short, Saved by Grace means God will save those he loves. And Jesus tells what causes God to love us in (John 14:21).
---David on 3/28/15


It's interesting to see the arguments put about works. They all seem to be centered on works of the law or good deeds.

Of course this then raises the question what amount of works does God require of us? Nobody offers any scripture detailing this, hence we see various ambiguous claims about what minimum standard of works God expects.

BUT, what did Jesus say our works are?
Jesus said our works are to believe on him John 6:29.
This is fighting the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless, 1Tim 6:12-14.
God gives specifics.

But man's error teachings are ambiguous.
---Haz27 on 3/27/15


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As a Seventh day Adventist we stress what the law is for and that it should be obeyed.

But we also stress that we obey because and from loving GOD and loving others.

So no works do not save or add anything to our salvation. They are the results of us being saved.


Luke 17:9,10

Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/27/15


//As for Him choosing some for damnation, that is a doctrine straight from hell.//
Monk

This is where defining choosing has some issues. Choosing some for damnation has an act of willfulness in seeing people go to hell in the definition. That is completely false, agreed However, we cannot get away from the fact that God also does not make mistakes, thus He has created someone perfectly and fully knows that he will not surrender himself to the gospel. But God is perfect love, thus He can give all the favor and attention that would get someone to salvation even if he knows that person will not surrender to God.
---Scott1 on 3/27/15


David : How we gain favor

How is that not trying to do good works to get into Heaven ?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by Grace are ye saved thought Faith, and that Not of yourselves : it is a gift of God,
2:9 - Not of works , lest any man should boast,

So the big Question is,Is a man that has faith, which has been given by God, being transform by God ? Conform - as in Philippians 1:6 or in Ezekiel 36:25 -27 And passages as you wrote directed to the saved and ones that will be, The thief's on the crosses, was one being transform by God just before death,Or is he making his own decision ? All that are given to Christ by the Father, Christ loses nothing, John 6:37 -39
---RichardC on 3/27/15


We are not predestined for anything except death (as long as Jesus tarries), which comes to us all. We each have free will to worship God or not.

The Arminian viewpoint is wrong, as is the Calvanist view. What we must understand is that it is both Grace and Works that will get us into heaven.

As for Him choosing some for damnation, that is a doctrine straight from hell. If anything, He has chosen us all for salvation. It is our sin which condemns us.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/27/15


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Good works are apart of faith, They go hand and hand together, But those works in themselves are not what saves, It's Grace
Titus 3:5-8 -RichardC


Richard
Please don't misunderstand, I do not teach you can save yourself by your works of faith in Jesus Christ. What I teach, is your works of faith brings you the favor/Grace of God.
And those in Gods Grace are the ones he chooses to save.

Richard, read (John 14:21) again, and you will clearly see Jesus taught obedience to his word is how we gain Gods favor.

(John 14:21) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
---David on 3/27/15


...How God goes about this selection I don't know, I do understand how other people come to other conclusion, the problem I fine with them they always seem to run into contradiction in verses,
---RichardC on 3/24/15

No contradictions: First, scripture confirms "who" is elect. A promise is a promise. A covenant is...

Isa_45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel "mine elect", I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa_65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, "mine elect" shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31.
---Trav on 3/26/15


David, No work Doctrine

I Don't believe That, I never really read anything about any one or group doing that, I quest it is out there,

James 2:26 - For a body without a spirit is dead, so faith with outworks is dead,

Good works are apart of faith, They go hand and hand together, But those works in themselves are not what saves, It's Grace
Titus 3:5-8
---RichardC on 3/26/15


If it base on our obedience then it is base on our Good works, to get us saved, this is contrary to verses, I think a person has to look at the entire Bible,--RichardC

Richard
You mean like (Romans 2:6-7)?
God, who will render to each one according to his deeds, ETERNAL LIFE to those who by patient continuance in doing good..."

What does Paul say the reward is, for those who by patient continuance in doing good?
I see it's Eternal life, what do you see?

Seems as though the teachers who teach the "no works' doctrine, miss the 2nd chapter of Romans where Paul teaches works.
Why is that, do you suppose? Could it be, it's because, it doesn't fit their doctrine?
---David on 3/26/15


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David: If a man will keep his words,

But the question comes is this direct to Gods elect and chosen, the ones that are and will be conform ? If this is direct to all, why would there be tares in the church ? and people on the last day saying Lord Lord , Obedience is important, but while in the flesh sin is still possible, Galatians 5:17 Romans 7:23 - 25 , If someone is still living in sin with out a care, then there just not Born again, God starts the work and finishes it, Philippians 1:6 - Does he do this for some and not other's ? If it base on our obedience then it is base on our Good works, to get us saved, this is contrary to verses, I think a person has to look at the entire Bible,
---RichardC on 3/25/15


But if it comes from God conforming the person ( Romans 8,29 ) And that why they are doing good works-Richard C

(John 14:23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.


Richard
Jesus is a much better teacher than any of us. With this said, in the above verse, doesn't Jesus say obedience to his word comes before he and God the Father live with us? Also look at what Jesus said in (John 14:21).

If Jesus said it, it's good enough for me,... but is it good enough for you?
---David on 3/25/15


Steveng : Let everybody in to heaven

I never said that ! But the type of person doesn't seem to work, a personality, If God is not a respecter of persons, they way they are, Now if your coming from the standpoint' that a person does good works, that's how they are saved, doesn't seem to work either, a work base gospel, you can not be saved by good works, But if it comes from God conforming the person ( Romans 8,29 ) And that why there doing good works, to me this seems to work. all the work of God, How God goes about this selection I don't know, I do understand how other people come to other conclusion, the problem I fine with them they always seem to run into contradiction in verses,
---RichardC on 3/24/15


Please explain... Did God pre-choose us or are we elect ...
---Judy on 3/20/15

Calvin or Jacobus Arminius? Both 15th century. Free yourself of both Judy. Consider why any view with a persons name in front of the doctrine would be one to believe?

Christ, Prophets (spokesman for GOD)and the 11 Apostles are the doctrines. Adopt no others.
Search your key words "elect", "sheep", "everlasting", "for ever", "Covenant", all related. Compare these related witnesses of GOD saying the same thing. Names like David, Hosea, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Matthew, Moses, Mark, Luke.
Discard any doctrine that doesn't utilize/honor GOD's hand chosen multiple witnesses.
---Trav on 3/24/15


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RichardC, so, God will just let everyone into heaven, eh?
---Steveng on 3/23/15


The Elect Is His Church.
The Acts Church of The Living God. Those that Are called by His name, which Is Jesus Christ.

Glory to God The Father which Is & who Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 3/23/15


God Chose Type of person He wants

Ephesians 5: 9 - And ye master, do the same thing unto them, forbearing threatening: Knowing that your master also in heaven: neither is there respect of person with him,

( With this verse and other verses like Romans 9:11 and 9:16 - I don't think Type of a is person works )
---RichardC on 3/23/15


Would God predestine some to eternal hell and some to eternal life? What kind of god would knowingly create people to go to hell?

The elect are the TYPE of people that God planned who whould populate heaven. Before one starts a business, one would write a business plan. The plan includes the type of people one needs to run and operate the business - accountants, lawyers, workers, etc. God chose the type of person he wants to populate his kingdom and not everyone is qualified. Would you hire a fashion designer to design a computer?
---Steveng on 3/22/15


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Judy believers are the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and 'sprinkling' (purifying effect) of the 'blood' (atoning sacrifice) of Jesus Christ:" 1Pe 1:2
Believers are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people that [the believer] may proclaim the praises of Him who called [them] out of darkness into His marvelous light," 1Pe 2:9
I know I use the term "the believer" quite often in my responses, I use it because I define a believer as one who relies on, adheres to, depends upon, and trust exclusively the finished work of the Lord Jesus, The Christ.
---josef on 3/21/15


Judy
Paul is using the new birth as a comparative to being born of a woman.

The controversy arises from the false teaching which says, one is born of God the instant we receive the seed of God.
And the false Predestination doctrine which teaches, God knows us before we are born of woman.

If God knows us before we are born of woman, why will he say to the condemned, "I never knew you" in (Matthew 7:23)?





---David on 3/21/15


The correct answer to all your questions is yes. Let me give you analogy to explain it all. God sees you as a complete picture or painting all at one time. Where we see ourselves as a movie. Even in your question "pre-choose" you have an element of time. God does not just know the future he is in the future.
---Scott1 on 3/21/15


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