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The Christian Church of the first-fourth centuries seems to be the kind of church that everybody wants to go back to. Why?

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/15
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I contend that all the house of Israel is the twelve tribes. With the twelve Apostles (Incidentally chosen in Israel) sitting on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes.
On the other hand the Church, the one boC led by one Apostle (chosen outside of Israel) is completely different
---michael_e on 5/6/15


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written ("after the fullness of the "ethnos" (Nth house of Israel) be come in")
---michael_e on 5/5/15

Both houses.
Rom 11:1 ... Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

Rom 11:25...that blindness in part is happened to Israel (Judah, retaining married name), until the fulness of the "ethnos, nations of North House/Lost Sheep) be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: ...

But, you contend, misunderstanding Saul/Paul that GOD and Christ did throw away the North House of 10. The Lost Sheep. You just don't see it... yet.

Mat_15:24 ... I am not sent "but unto" the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 5/6/15


//Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel//
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
//Yes a mystery until the New Covenant//
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery, (as I wrote afore in few words,
Jeremiah, Israel's prophet
Eph 3:5 ... it is "now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets" Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Silas etc.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written ("after the fullness of the gentiles be come in")
---michael_e on 5/5/15


... "rightly divide the word of truth" 5/5/15

Yes a mystery until the New Covenant.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,...
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, to all that are afar off, ...
(Afar off)Jer_30:10 ...neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar,
Jer_31:10 Hear...in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Act 3:24... all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after,...foretold of these days.
Act 3:23 ...it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
---Trav on 5/5/15


(Rom 11:25: Ephs 3:3,4,...A mystery, kept secret,...revealed to Paul, not the prophets or the 12 apostles to Israel"
---michael_e on 5/5/15

Wow. Secret to the Prophets, and Christ who fulfilled the Prophets? And twelve Apostles???
Your own scripture doesn't even agree with you. Eph 3:5 ... it is "now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets" by the Spirit,
Mar_4:11 he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery...

You didn't list Romans 11:26! Because it explains 11:25.
Rom 11:25...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the "ethnos" be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
All Israel, Heb 8:8,both Houses.
---Trav on 5/5/15




//You're sifting for differences, not confirmations.//
You don't have to sift for differences, they are plain when you "rightly divide the word of truth"
Compare Acts 2 & 3 etc. "devout Jews" "ye men of Israel" with 2 Cor 5, Gal.6 " new creature".
Israel's 12 tribes had been around for years. No new creation there.
Paul didn't go against Christ
Christ revealed a mystery to him, "kept secret since the world began" "hid in God" (Rom 11:25, 16:25: Ephs 3:3,4,9 5:32, 6:19: Col.1:26, 27
A mystery, kept secret, by God since the world began was revealed to Paul, not the prophets or the 12 apostles to Israel"










---michael_e on 5/5/15


Everything from Genesis 12 until Paul's Epistles were directed primarily, to the Jew.
---michael_e on 5/5/15

You're sifting for differences, not confirmations.
Differences to GOD, Christ, Prophets and other Apostles should be a flag. Christ and 12 Apostles never go against the prophets or father. You say one man...Paul did.
First error you and I were taught is that Abraham, Noah, Moses were Judean/jews. Judah is 1/13th of Israel.
Paul speaks to both houses of Israel under the law, explaining the reuniting of both houses through Christ. North House of ten mixed among the "nations (goy)" are an "ethnos" and individual nations themselves.
---Trav on 5/5/15


...There are vast differences between Paul's Epistles, and much of the rest of Scripture.
(Gal 2:7-9)
---michael_e on 5/5/15

Gal 2:7-9, Circumcision, the covenant sign of purity of Israel. North House of Israel, divorced/put away were not pure or cleansed for "remarriage" until Christ death. Judah was not divorced,...
Jer_3:8 I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Heb 8:8. Is the New Covenant between the two Houses. Heb 8:10, as in Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, ...
---Trav on 5/5/15


It doesn't take a Greek or Hebrew (or Latin) scholar to understand the Bible
As far as Bible is concerned, there is one apostle of the Gentiles, Paul. His letters, alone are written to the Church, the boC. Paul addresses believers of Grace by faith alone. Romans was written to Gentiles in the Roman Empire.
Rom 1:1 PAUL, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,"
There are vast differences between Paul's Epistles, and much of the rest of Scripture. Everything from Genesis 12 until Paul's Epistles were directed primarily, to the Jew. And especially under the Law. Paul was commissioned at his conversion at Damascus, when God told Ananias. (Acts 9:15)backed up (Gal 2:7-9)
---michael_e on 5/5/15


"Ethnos"//

... confusing people with third grade Greek that we try to learn the word of God in English.
---michael_e on 5/4/15

Gentiles is a Latin word. Third grade Greek means that even third graders understand the intent. Compare with 20 prophets, Christ own words and the Apostles that were the first pick and truth becomes apparent. All of Romans is written to Israel. The New Covenant is written to both houses of Israel. The Old covenant was to both houses being united at the time.
Pretty plain unless one prefers, second grade down.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, lump is also holy: if the root be holy, so are the branches.
---Trav on 5/4/15




// The church, the boC, composed of Jew and "Ethnos"//
It would be better if instead of spending time confusing people with third grade Greek that we try to learn the word of God in English.
" Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past "GENTILES"(Includes Trav) in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,"
---michael_e on 5/4/15


Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

John is the Greatest Prophet.

Paul was an Apostle. Which is higher than being a Prophet. But the Highest is Jesus Christ. Paul is the great Theologian of the New Testament.

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

The other Apostle's sought out the lost tribes of Israel. Since they did not need as much instruction as did Gentiles.

Rock of Ages.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/4/15


The church, the boC, composed of Jew and "Ethnos" doesn't have twelve tribes.
There were no prophets greater than Paul.
---michael_e on 5/3/15

Hmmmm. You state Christ and his Apostles including Paul failed looking for the "scattered", "lost Sheep" then.
Joh_11:52 ...he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Jas_1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Eze_34:6 My sheep ...my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
(Including Micheal_e)
---Trav on 5/3/15


//Paul does speak to Israel but confuses everyone//
Not everyone, just those that believe the twelve tribes of Israel are the twelve tribes of the boC.
The church, the boC, composed of Jew and Gentile doesn't have twelve tribes.
When the Bible talks about twelve tribes, it isn't talking about the church of one body (Rom 12:5 , Eph 4:4)
There were twelve family tribes that made up the nation Israel. Those tribes came from the twelve sons of Jacob (Gen 49:28 ).
//So lets utilize two witnesses before and greater than Paul. Christ and the prophets //
There were no prophets greater than Paul. Christ also sent Paul, same as the prophets.
---michael_e on 5/3/15


//church is Israel today//
No,
Paul writes speaking of Israel.
Israel will not always be blinded and their prophecies will not go unanswered, but now they are in unbelief.
---michael_e on 4/30/15

Hey m_e, paul does speak to Israel but confuses everyone. A roman latin thing, it appears.
Judah is not "all" Israel. So lets utilize two witnesses before and greater than paul. Christ and the prophets. We both honor these positionally you'd agree.
Judah has not seen Christ but, the house of Israel has been found. Not intentionally but, without realizing you are saying Christ failed. GOD failed.
We were never taught, shown that or these scriptures.
Matt 10:6/15:24, Lk 15:4/6. Eze_34:6, Eze_34:11
---Trav on 5/1/15


//the church is Israel today//
No,
Paul writes speaking of Israel, Rom 11:11

Prophetic writings given to Israel prophesied Israels rise over nations. The nations would eventually come to Israel and find the God who created the universe (Zech 8:22-23).
It was kept secret that through the fall of Israel salvation would come to all men. This was not known in the prior scriptures as we learn in Rom.11 25
Israel is in unbelief among the Gentiles so that he could have mercy upon all men freely (Romans 11:32, 3:24). Now there is neither Jew nor Greek, and we know no man after the flesh (Gal 3:28, 2 Cor 5:16).
Israel will not always be blinded and their prophecies will not go unanswered, but now they are in unbelief.
---michael_e on 4/30/15


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Rom 8:29 the first-born among many brethren
Gal 4:5so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Jhn 17:12 and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,


WE have been ADOPTED to be SONS of God (Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of many brethren/brothers of His).

We have been taught 2,000 years of LIES....(PERDITIOUS teachings).

The modern "church" buildings etc. is the CHURCH OF MAN (which is the "son"/result of all of that PERDITION.

Since we do not live the PERFECT law (James 1:25), God considers us to be "LAWLESS".
---faithforfaith on 4/30/15


Trav the church is Israel today. See Ephesians.

We are children now by faith and being Born again of Abraham and GOD. See Galatians.

If a person does not believe and obey Jesus they are not truly part of Israel and not his people.

Love GOD love your neighbor.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/30/15


The\ REAL "church"/worship temple is THE BODY THAT HUNG ON THE CROSS. We each are supposed to spiritually reside inside of it.

Spirits that live inside the body of Jesus have no gender, "neither male nor female" Galatians 3:28 RSV.

John 2:19 anmd 21 say that Jesus reestablished the worship temple IN HIS BODY.

Acts 11:26 is when the Jews that had accepted Jesus as their Messiah (Isaiah 9:18 "Prince of Peace") voted to change THEIR name from to "Christians" (look it up at Wikipedia).

The Jews never ALSO accepted the "Wonderful Counselor"/Holy Spirit.
---faithforfaith on 4/29/15


The first century "church"/temple (both the CONGREGATIONAL "church" and the INSTITUTIONAL one) was named "THE WAY" (Acts 9:2, 9:17, etc.). SAUL (before he became PAUL) persecuted those who BELONGED to THE WAY (and "I AM THE WAY..." John 14:6).

Jesus was the "Prince of Peace" that also delivered to us the "Wonderful Counselor"/Holy Spirit (Isaiah 9:18).

Jesus is the "FIRSTBORN of many brethren" (the FIRSTBORN Son is the ONLY "begotten" son of THE FATHER, but we are the many BRETHREN/brothers of Jesus (Jesus is "SON", we are BROTHERS of Jesus because OUR FATHER is also HIS Father).
---faithforfaith on 4/28/15


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Heb8:8...I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
We have to become part of that Covenant to be saved.
Isiah 8:20
...to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word,... there is no light in them.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/28/15

Agreeing with Isa8:20.
You put no testimony (light) to your statement above. Rather opinion.
For instance witnesses to Heb 8:8, above would be: Gen_17:7 I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
---Trav on 4/28/15


The majority of Northern Ten tribes that split off were Called Israel.

That is what you are referred at the nth tribe. Which has confused me.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The New Covenant is made with both. We have to become part of that Covenant to be saved. Which is why the whole Bible is for all who follow Jesus. 2tim3:16

Isiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

GOD gave Ten Commandments not suggestions.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/28/15


Jews is used to refer to all people who claim the ancestry and the religion of Judaism.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/27/15

You are getting some facts right.
The House of Israel in scripture is not Judah as found in the New Covenant Heb 8:8 or Jer 31:31.

Jew is slang for Judah. One of the 12 sons of Jacob.
Judah does not represent or replace these other sons.

One cannot even understand the New Testament Covenant or Christ intent in his sayings without understanding that Israel is split between two houses.
The Nth House of ten and the southern house of Judah/Benjamin.
Cont'd
---Trav on 4/27/15


Trav I have not used a correct term.

We have Churches that worship in the Hebrew style of Synagogues since the members are all Jewish.

Jews is used to refer to all people who claim the ancestry and the religion of Judaism.

History Religion Facts defines it this way.

Judaism is one of the oldest religions in the world that still exists today. Its history, beliefs, and traditions were recorded in the Hebrew Bible beginning as early as the 8th century BCE.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/27/15


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Steven G. said, "Brendan wrote: "Here, the accuser must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. You have not done so."

OK, so I stated a fact and you accused me of being wrong. Like I said before, even if I presented more facts, you, like a few others, would still accuse me of being wrong."


No, Steven. If you present real, provable concrete facts that I can look up on the internet, (and is not refuted by other sources), then I will listen. Otherwise, you're talking through your hat.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/25/15


...we have a number of Jewish churches.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/23/15

A jewish church??
Judah does not equal all of Israel in scripture. Just because one calls their selves jewish doesn't make it so.
Note the New Covenant's wording below "and" Judah. Research the two houses, two sticks. New Testament cannot be totally understood without understanding this.

Heb_8:8 ... saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel---- and ----with the house of Judah:
Amo_3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Examples:
GOD and Israel as one renewed house.
The House of Israel and Judah.
A Christian and Scripture.
A Christian with another Christian.
---Trav on 4/24/15


\\The Early church in the end turned with hatred on the Jews which was part of it's fall into apostacy\\

Can you give any dates, places, and persons, Samuel?

**This should most likely be understood that ""when" they sit in Moses's seat," **

But that's not what Jesus actually said, is it, Rod?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/23/15


Brendan wrote: "Here, the accuser must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. You have not done so."

OK, so I stated a fact and you accused me of being wrong. Like I said before, even if I presented more facts, you, like a few others, would still accuse me of being wrong.
---Steveng on 4/23/15


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Steven G said, "I brought to you information just as Paul presented his information to the Bareans. The Bareans searched the scripture to see if what Paul said was true. So, in reality, it is you that needs to prove my guilt or innocence."

Wrong. We reside in America in the 21st century. British Civil Law is the basis for most of the law here in America. Here, the accuser must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. You have not done so.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/23/15


Trav in the Seventh day Adventist church we recognize 2 Tim 3:16 as being true. We use the Old and New Testament equally. In fact here and other places I have many times used the Whole bible. For it is all for the church.

True today many churches have left the Doctrine of the Church being Israel. Which is one of the lies being told that Israel and the Church are two different entities. Which is from dispensationalism.

The Gospel is not spread to both Gentiles and Israel. Many of our leaders have been Jewish and we have a number of Jewish churches.

The Early church in the end turned with hatred on the Jews which was part of it's fall into apostacy.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/23/15


Christians are now part of Israel.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/23/15

Mark that they never acknowledge Israels scripture or search.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mic_2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel, I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall...
Eze_34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
---Trav on 4/23/15


Galations 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Read Ephesians

Christians are now part of Israel.

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So the whole Bible is for us who follow Jesus. 2tim3:16
---Samuelbb7 on 4/23/15


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Monk_Brendan wrote: "...it is up to the accuser to prove the guilt of the accused,.."

I brought to you information just as Paul presented his information to the Bareans. The Bareans searched the scripture to see if what Paul said was true. So, in reality, it is you that needs to prove my guilt or innocence.


Besides, whatever I say you (or someone else) will discredit me anyway unless you search yourself to prove I'm right. I've experenced this a few times in the past. I gave a lead for you to begin your research - IRS Form 990. This shows the true wealth of any non-profit corporation.
---Steveng on 4/22/15


Steven G said, "...with all their statues, paintings, repeated prayers,... robes of fine linen, fifteen hundred years of gathering ...properties makes both churches very, very wealthy"

You say you haven't researched the Orthodox Churches, and then you lump them together with the Roman Catholic Church.

Your perceived notions of the Catholic Church are wrong. You give a fictional accounting of trillions of dollars, but you don't give a source. You talk about the various statues, fine linens, and so on, but what is your source?

Steven, it is up to the accuser to prove the guilt of the accused, and so far, you have done nothing about proof.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/22/15


Steven G said, (Part 2)"...I haven't research the orthodox church,"

Then why even mention them? However, did you know that there are lots of Orthodox pastors that have to hold down a secular, worldly job to keep their church functioning?

but the catholic church is estimated at about seventeen trillion dollars.

Proof?

Their revenue is from donations And your church home doesn't ask for "Love Offerings" and tithes?... school tuition",

Have you ever been to a school that all of the staff, teachers, aids, office personnel and Janitorial staff is volunteer, and without pay? I haven't

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/22/15


Trav...
Whether they teach according to the word of GOD is the Standard.
Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful...
---Samuelbb7 on 4/22/15

At least you are searching...when you find a stone...consider and apply it.
Before Deu 32:18 is Deu 32:9 For the LORD'S portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
If you would follow/apply truth.
Isa_51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
(The next verse explaining)
Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, blessed him, and increased him.
---Trav on 4/22/15


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Trav having property and money does not make a Church false. Whether they teach according to the word of GOD is the Standard.

Monk Brendan I understand your wish. But from a Protestant viewpoint the RCC drifted from the Bible to tradition and set up a mere man as it's rock and another as it's head on earth.

The Rock and Foundation of the Church and it's leader is Jesus Christ alone. The Apostles were helpers.

Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,
1Peter 2:6

Jesus is the Rock of Ages
---Samuelbb7 on 4/22/15


The catholic church and the orthodox church with all their statues, paintings, repeated prayers, glamorous robes of fine linen, fifteen hundred years of gathering its assets (both fixed and paper) and properties makes both churches very, very wealthy - and against bible principles. I haven't research the orthodox church, but the catholic church is estimated at about seventeen trillion dollars. Their revenue is from donations (both personal and political), income property, revenue from the smaller catholic churches, school tuition, stocks and bonds, and the selling of religious trinkets such as the rosery and statues. Their expenses include the maintaining of these assets which amount to eighty six percent of their total revenue.
---Steveng on 4/21/15


Trav, once you mentioned all the tribute flowing into Rome from all over the world.

I asked you how much this was, and you never answered.

Will you do so now?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/21/15


Trav said, "Catholics are working constantly for an ecumenical gathering of all churches back to them as the head. One $uper Church."

The Catholic Churches--all 22 different traditions have been slowly working to heal the unChristian schism of 1054. It is something I pray for every day. The Catholic Churches need the various pre-reformation Churches, and those Churches need the Catholic Churches. It was unscriptural back in 1054, and the schism is still unscriptural.

Nor would the Roman Church be the head of these other Churches.

That would not make a super church--rather, it would heal the wounds caused by the schism

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/21/15


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Trav History note. Orthodox and the Roman Catholic church were still one church until Great Schism around 1050....
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/15

Catholics are working constantly for an ecumenical gathering of all churches back to them as the head. One $uper Church. The politics are acceptance of the differences between them all. Slowly happening. This one "community" (world) church, one "community"(world) government will happen eventually as prophesied. 2011 Vatican was promoting a "Centralized World Bank". Wow. A church involved in U.N. banking. Scriptural.
Foundation of this "universal" house was laid early. When it collapses it would be best to be far away from it.
---Trav on 4/21/15


Trav History note. The Orthodox and the Roman Catholic church were still one church until the Great Schism around 1050. I forgot the exact date. They both claim they did a number of things when in fact during that time they were one church.

Also Colors are the hues reflected back. They can be measured by instruments. So an object that looks red is reflecting the red light spectrum. Color Blindness is a physical condition of humans. The colors used by a church do not mean it is a bad church.

It is their actions that show good or bad.

Thank you Cluny for remembering the Millerites are our ancestors.

The Way of the Cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/15


... "88 Reasons why the Rapture will Hit in 1988", and others--especially the Millerites (predecessors of SDA).
---Cluny on 4/20/15

Your scarlet heroes invented the trend.
But, lets also consider scale...whole countries knelt before your perverse daughters feet. For centuries.
This scarlet Church you defend so passionately is where you are going to stand? Thought you were orthodoc's. Which of the two are you purple or scarlet?

---Trav on 4/20/15


Actually, there's no such thing as color,just light rays of different lengths , what colors do you see in a dark room? Color is seen in the brain, hence, some persons are "color blind"
---1stcliff on 4/20/15


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\\One interesting note is in the year 999 the church convinced everyone the world was ending and people gave away all they had to the church. \\

The same thing happened with Harold Camping, the author of "88 Reasons why the Rapture will Hit in 1988", and others--especially the Millerites (predecessors of SDA).

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/20/15


Actually, Monk, colors existed before the rainbow. It was not a black and white world.
---Steveng on 4/18/15

Exactly.
Apostle Peter...is surely apalled by the atrocity's done in his name. Google, the vatican billions, two thousand years of wealth. It is astounding at the scarlet atrocity's from 300ad done to the present age.
One interesting note is in the year 999 the church convinced everyone the world was ending and people gave away all they had to the church.
Then Peters written letters from heaven, his chair, his bones. Peters supposed chains they sold filings off of. They claimed ownership of oceans countries even America!
What is more amazing these days of information is defending the indefensible!
---Trav on 4/20/15


Actually, Monk, colors existed before the rainbow. It was not a black and white world. God created our eyes to see a portion, the visible part, of the electromagnetic spectrum.
---Steveng on 4/18/15


Cluny said, " Besides, didn't God invent colors?"

Actually, Cluny He did.

Gen 9:12-13 And God said, This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/15


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I don't think "everybody" wants to go back to some old way. We have Jesus now, doing all that we need. We need to obey how our Shepherd is taking care of us, now > John 1:1-30.

However, worldly people can just join in large groups where they can blend in by copy-catting what others are doing. And a predator can easily blend in with their outward acting. And if they evaluate the predator by only superficial standards, they even can fool themselves into trusting him to be a pastor!!

Individuals have taken it on themselves to throw out our Apostle Paul's standards for who qualifies to pastor > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. And in the darkness of their disobedience, they have failed to see who they were ordaining.
---Bill on 4/17/15


\\tributes flow in across all the oceans.\\

And how much tribute do you think flows in to the Vatican?

The budget of the Vatican is about that of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

Again, you say things that have no basis in reality.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/17/15


\\She sits on many waters\\

Rome doesn't sit on waters.
And there are not even 11 billion people in the entire WORLD.
And what's so Romish about scarlet and purple? Besides, didn't God invent colors?
---Cluny on 4/16/15

1.1 billion Scarlet and Purple followers.
GOD did invent the colors and the symbolic scriptural marks of those who wear them as a mark.
Ironically Quilled by "monks", according to electronic quilled here per a monk.
Represented around the world... tributes flow in across all the oceans.
Rev_18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
---Trav on 4/17/15


\\She sits on many waters\\

Rome doesn't sit on waters.

And there are not even 11 billion people in the entire WORLD.

And what's so Romish about scarlet and purple? I've seen them in Protestant churches, too.

Besides, didn't God invent colors?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/15


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Monk_Brendan wrote: "...it (the bible) wasn't divided into chapters and verses."

I always said that the chapters and verses in the bible were a creation of Satan. Man began putting chapters and verses in the bible about seven hundred years ago. Sure, it makes it easier to find things in the bible, but at the same time it makes it easier to take verse out of context by today's christians.

Remember also that the bible says that ALL scripture is given for edification. The only scriptures were the OT. As I wrote in my post is that the preaching were done by word of mouth and by letters (epistles). The apostles and other godly people in the NT wasn't suppose to preach with script in hand but by the Holy Spirit.
---Steveng on 4/16/15


Cluny, Trav is only trying to be helpful.
---learner2 on 4/16/15


I've asked you once already if you're so bigoted and ignorant that you think this is talking about the Roman Catholic Church,...
---Cluny on 4/16/15

Coming from a "bigoted" orthodox your question and slander made me laugh.
Rome's advertising point since it's inception...is the "City on Seven Hills". It's her mark. The colors of your abominable sister match Revelations. This woman that calls herself "not a widow" is taught. She sits on many waters. She is her own country...all Governments seek her approvals because of the 11 billion ignorant people who pay her respect. Like you as a "shining post" example. All nations have paying followers of her deceptions. Etc, etc.
---Trav on 4/16/15


StevenG said,
"Matthew 21:42
Matthew 22:29
Matthew 26:54, 56
Mark 12:24
Luke 24:32, 45
John 2:22
John 5:39
Acts 17:11
Acts 18:28
2 Timothy 3:15
2 Timothy 3:16
James 2:8

Which scriptures were they searching?

And how were the scripture taught in the NT?

Luke 9:3
Luke 22:35
2 Peter 3:16

Right, and they could look up those Scriptures with their KJV, right?

You're not listening. The only Scriptures they had were the Old Testament, and then it wasn't divided into chapters and verses.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/15


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\\Rev 17:9 here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. \\

I've asked you once already if you're so bigoted and ignorant that you think this is talking about the Roman Catholic Church, and you've never answered.

Rome actually sits on NINE hills.

But Mecca and physical Jerusalem (who both persecuted and persecute Christians today) are on 7 hills.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/15


What scriptures did Jesus and the apostles teach from?

Matthew 21:42
Matthew 22:29
Matthew 26:54, 56
Mark 12:24
Luke 24:32, 45
John 2:22
John 5:39
Acts 17:11
Acts 18:28
2 Timothy 3:15
2 Timothy 3:16
James 2:8

Which scriptures were they searching?

And how were the scripture taught in the NT?

Luke 9:3
Luke 22:35
2 Peter 3:16

...through letters (epistles), through face-to-face communication, through personal accountability to grow your own vine, taking personal responsibility for other's spiritual growth.
---Steveng on 4/15/15


...to be like the Church of the first few centuries, you will put your Bible on the shelf...
then you listen to your presbyters and bishops.
---Cluny on 4/15/15

You and your authoritys have put their Bibles on the shelf.
I've been you listening not getting any meat, understanding or utilizing scripture.
Avoid all modern day presbyters and bishops if you are the learned example.
I've never seen you post a "Sheep" scripture, or speak Israel's name...or mention the "New Covenant" location or statement. Prophets...do you even own an Old Testament?

Original is Christ. The only Teacher, prophets back him up in every detail. Apostles confirming testimony of both. Keep your P & B's.
---Trav on 4/15/15


\\You don't think that Christ sent the Eleven out with their personal copies do you? \\

I know He didn't.

If you want to be like the Church of the first few centuries, you will put your Bible on the shelf and never look at it again, because you didn't have it.

And then you listen to your presbyters and bishops.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/15/15


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Jesus said that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies , to flee to the mountains. this they did but then Rome left the area and they came back. In 70 AD Rome once again surrounded Jerusalem .The Jews began to swallow their gold escaping, when this became known The soldiers would cut open all escapee resulting in mass slaughter. From then on Jews/Christians were persecuted
Christianity is a sect of Jewdaism !
---1stcliff on 4/15/15


\I see more congregations leaving the mainstream style & going back to what the disciples taught \\

actually think people had their own copies of the Bible back in the first 3 centuries do you?
---Cluny on 4/14/15

You don't think that Christ sent the Eleven out with their personal copies do you?
Sheep know their Shepherd and their Shepherds voice and words, pal. Christ is not penned up or confined in your church or any other.
It never was nor will it ever be.
Joh_10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
---Trav on 4/15/15


i have asked that question many many times. The early church had racism, persecution, and lies. But that is what idealism will do for you. I think it also has to do with people think life was simplier because of less communications.
---Scott1 on 4/15/15


\\Your churches use and venerate the ancient liturgy language of their mother Rome. \\

Wrong again, Trav.

The classic liturgical languages of the Orthodox have been Greek and Slavonic.

Vernacular languages were used as soon as possible. One of the first things that St. John Veniaminov did in Alaska was to translate the Gospels and Divine Liturgy into the Aleut and Tlingit languages.

Latin has NEVER been a liturgical language in Orthodoxy.

Doesn't it bother you to say things that have no basis in reality?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/15/15


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You don't actually think people had their own copies of the Bible back in the first 3 centuries do you?
---Cluny on 4/14/15

Christ prevailed despite your church trying to repress truth. Your give orthodox testament here and further example is your sister the catholic church.
You and your ecumenical buddy monk seldom use scripture upholding each other. Your churches use and venerate the ancient liturgy language of their mother Rome.
Rev 17:9 here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
---Trav on 4/15/15


\\I see more congregations leaving the mainstream style & going back to what the disciples taught. line upon line. really study in the word.\\

How could they "really study in the word" when they didn't have the NT in the 1st century and might not have been able to read it, even if they had it?

You don't actually think people had their own copies of the Bible back in the first 3 centuries do you?

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 4/14/15


Candice said, " I take that to mean they were more scriptural bound & followed what Jesus taught then ...I see more congregations...going back to what the disciples taught. line upon line. really study in the word.

True, the Church of the first-fourth centuries followed closely what Jesus and the apostles taught.

They had a Liturgy, in which the Body and Blood of Christ was truly made present. They had incense, and there were set aside three types of clergy--Deacons, Presbyters (shortened to priests) and Bishops.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/14/15


The meaning of "church" is completly different today than it was in Jesus' time. Today's meaning is a building or denomination just by the way it's used: "I didn't see you in church this morning," "Our church has a great Christmas/Easter program," "Our church has a new sound system," "We added ten new classes to our church buidling," etc.

In Jesus' time they were simply the body of Christ, christians.

Today's denominational "churches" water down the gospel creating counterfeit christians (christians who say they are christians, abut are not), christians who have the knowledge of God, but deny his power.
---Steveng on 4/14/15


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I take that to mean they were more scriptural bound & followed what Jesus taught then most churches today adding the worlds view & moving away from the word. I see more congregations leaving the mainstream style & going back to what the disciples taught. line upon line. really study in the word.
---candice on 4/14/15


Leon asked, " What do you mean Monk?"

What I mean is that there were many years that Christians were allowed to live and let live. In that time Christians were not dragged before a statue of the emperor and told to burn a pinch of incense. If Christians kept their wits about them they could continue to live.

True there was great persecution, but all one ever hears about are the martyrs.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/14/15


What do you mean Monk?
---Leon on 4/14/15


1st Cliff said, " Christians of the first three centuries were fed to the lions."

No, that is not correct. While there was a great deal of persecution in those times, there were a lot of Christians who simply didn't make waves, didn't panic, and kept their heads.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/14/15


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Mat.16 v 18 Fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. To the Jewish peoples First by Apostle Peter. The Acts Church of The Living God.
---Lawrence on 4/14/15


Christians of the first three centuries were fed to the lions.
---1stcliff on 4/14/15


It certainly was not the church that everyone wanted to go to back then.
---learner2 on 4/13/15


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