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Heaven Hell The Same

It has been suggested that heaven and hell are the same experience, standing full in the face of God's Love, without anything to get in the way. For the saved it will be glory, for the damned, eternal torment. Please Discuss.

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\\Did you say some time ago you live in San Francisco now?---Trav on 5/7/15 \\

More delusions, Trav?
---Cluny on 5/9/15

Ha. "Liberally" of your own making.
You may have moved.
---Trav on 5/11/15


\\Wow Cluny, I am here in Birmingham.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/8/15\\

Nicole, the church you attended, St. Elias, is a MARONITE Church, not Melkite. Yes, they do use some Aramaic.

St. George's the Melkite Church, was the first church of Roman obedience in the world to use English as a liturgical language.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/11/15


\\Did you say some time ago you live in San Francisco now?---Trav on 5/7/15 \\

Nope, never did.

More delusions, Trav?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/9/15


Wow Cluny, I am here in Birmingham.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/8/15

Ha. Match made...in...
He can do part of a catholic thing. You'll have to convert at some point.
Regarding your first lessons from PaPa, you ate the crayolas! A fortunate early marks failure.
You've been sent to juvie, for eating your work tools and arguing with your teachers. Children of the adversary always expelled.
1Ti 5:13 withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
---Trav on 5/8/15


And if it matters, I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. Christ is risen! ---Cluny on 5/7/15

Hey I usually like people from Birmingham! Wish you'd stayed there.
Did you say some time ago you live in San Francisco now?---Trav on 5/7/15

Wow Cluny, I am here in Birmingham.

There you go again Trav, trying to get personal information without giving any.
What happen to our first lesson?

I am a Rassaphore Monk in the Melkite Cathoolic Church.---Monk_Brendan on 5/7/15

I went to Mass once at a Mekite Catholic Church ST. Elias or Ellis.
It was BEAUTIFUL. 1/2 of the service spoken in Aramaic I believe.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/8/15




No. Gordan the wicked are not promised eternal life in any form. They will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

You can look up a discussion by Edwar Fudge who used to be a minister and Professor. But when he decided to actually study the topic of hell. He found that Christians were mistaken.

His book has not bee refuted but he was persecuted for teaching the truth. He lost his job and had many people turn against him. But he stuck with his principals.

Rock of ages cleft for me.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/7/15


Wrong again, Trav.
And when people say WRONG things about the Roman Catholic Church, I'm going to point that out, too.
...I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama.
---Cluny on 5/7/15

Hey I usually like people from Birmingham! Wish you'd stayed there.
Did you say some time ago you live in San Francisco now?

Carefully so far, I've never posted anything non-factual about the "roman universal" Cult.
Since all we have is a vague/closeted "perception" of you.
One has only their perceptions to go on with your vague, one line sarcastic replies.
Perception is truth of your creation, until your finally provoked to come out.
---Trav on 5/7/15


\\I always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority.\\

If you knew as much as you thought you did, you'd know that Kazakhstan is mostly mahometan.
---Cluny on 5/6/15

Actually looked up before hand where the orthodoc's were the most. Then found a far flung corner I imagined you from. Toss up between Kyrgyzstan, Belarus, Serbia or a made up name. Knew you would check so left you something to work with.
Hey we both learned something. You didn't know either.
Zec_7:14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. ...
---Trav on 5/7/15


True, the Saints and the Damned will experience GOD and HIS Glory throughout all Eternity, but in totally different ways.

The Saints will live Forever in GOD's Holy Presence, Glory and Light.

But the Damned will face GOD's full Wrath, Judgment and Condemnation for all Eternity.

GOD's Judgment against them will be HIS Glory before them.

The Damned shall be separated from all of GOD's Good Characteristics, such as HIS Love, Mercy, Grace, Blessing, Favour, Protection, Kindness, Provision, etc.
While experiencing HIS Fiery Wrath and utter rejection.

The Saints will dwell Forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-2) while the Damned will forever dwell in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 14:9-11, 20:10-15, 21:8).
---Gordon on 5/7/15


\\So he switches (Roman) and defends every doctrine the "roman" church or participants think or do.\\

Wrong again, Trav.

One of the doctrines of the Roman Church is that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man in one Person. Of course, I defend this doctrine, because they got it from Orthodoxy.

And when people say WRONG things about the Roman Catholic Church, I'm going to point that out, too.

And if it matters, I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/7/15




\\I always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority.\\

If you knew as much as you thought you did, you'd know that Kazakhstan is mostly mahometan.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/6/15


Nicole said, "Monk, is that your first name or title. Just curious."

That is my title. To be specific I am a Rassaphore Monk in the Melkite Cathoolic Church.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 5/7/15


Trav:

You said: always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority.

This is because you seem to fancy yourself as Superman - leaping to far conclusions without any evidence.

I guess you never read his many posts that mentioned that he had grown up in a Baptist church?

Listen instead of jumping. To participate in a blog you begin you participation with a sarcastic, denying, or questioning observation. When this bounces back on you you are offended. One thing you might do is quit defending the scripturally indefensible.

I am disappointed (not offended) by personal insults. I am also disappointed by fallacious leaps of illogic.
---StrongAxe on 5/6/15


Anyplace without God is Hell.

Even when you ignore God here on earth your life becomes a living Hell.

But the same is true if your life is a living Hell, but God is in you, life is peaceful as in Heaven.

Only difference is that true Hell is forever without God.

Monk, is that your first name or title. Just curious.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/6/15


Trav, I don't get the joke. what did you mean when you said that Cluny comes from Rome GA?
---richa8957 on 5/6/15

It was an inside poke... him being orthodox'd to the bone for years even kind of "Anti-Catholic" at times.
Then the "roman" catholics started posting. So he switches (Roman) and defends every doctrine the "roman" church or participants think or do.
See where he has too...they have ecumenical relations and similar family cult practices.
(Surprise! Cluny's from the Bible Belt!)I always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority. But, he swings both ways now between catholics and orthos.
---Trav on 5/6/15


You stated the parables were fictional. Too broad of statement, it bit you.
The parables live and are seen and realized in real life. Christ opened up the Apostles eyes about them...when they asked. Mat 13:10 ... Why ...
Trav


Forgive me, Trav, but aren't some (if not all) of the parables fiction? When Jesus tells us a story, such as the Publican and the Pharisee, is He actually thinking of two particular men? Rather, He is pointing out the difference between the two, so that the disciple can see, and turn away from such action in the future

Richa,
The Born Again Buddhist,
Saved by the grace of God,
and totally in love with Jesus!
---richa8957 on 5/6/15


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Trav:
You said: If you don't know either way then you couldn't declare they are "fictional".
---StrongAxe on 5/6/15

Listen instead of jumping. To participate in a blog you begin you participation with a sarcastic, denying, or questioning observation. When this bounces back on you you are offended. One thing you might do is quit defending the scripturally indefensible.
But, then this is one way of learning they are indefensible. Don't we all learn??
You stated the parables were fictional. Too broad of statement, it bit you.
The parables live and are seen and realized in real life. Christ opened up the Apostles eyes about them...when they asked. Mat 13:10 ... Why ...
---Trav on 5/6/15


Trav, I don't get the joke. what did you mean when you said that Cluny comes from Rome GA?

Richa,
The Born Again Buddhist,
Saved by the grace of God,
and totally in love with Jesus!
---richa8957 on 5/6/15


Trav:

You said: If you don't know either way then you couldn't declare they are "fictional".

And you don't know either way either.

Since you have nothing to foundation them with in life or scripture and we do

What a pompous and arrogant thing to say. I suggest you pack away you patented tare/wheat sorter until judgment day.

they very well can be based on actual events or events that will happen.

If you actually read what I wrote below, you would see that I also said this.

(So cluny immigrated from a corner of the Bible Belt. Must have been (Rome. Ga).

More ad-hominem attacks. Again. PLEASE STOP.
---StrongAxe on 5/6/15


Hypocrites and the iniquitous/unjust will go from "dust to dust" (cursed), but WE (if we truly are regenerated/"SEALED" by God's Spirit) who have a heavenly spirit/attitude lifestyle are GUARANTEED "ETERNAL LIFE" ("salvation" has already been accomplished).

The "salvation" that we've been taught to think of as MESSIAHSHIP ONLY is actually only PURIFICATION OF THE FLESH (Jesus made "purification for sin" in Hebrews 1).

Hebrews 9:14 shows that we ALSO need purification OF THE CONSCIENCE by living as God's Spirit tells us (to be peaceful and true).
---faithforfaith on 5/5/15


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Many things that are spiritual/divine in nature cannot be sufficiently expressed or explained/understood with human language...God's SPIRIT/TONGUES"....WE humans cannot truly speak that way).

"Heaven" refers more to a HEAVENLY lifestyle (MIND/attitude). "Hell" is where a person experience vengeance/retaliation from their conscience and is tormented by the results of their own iniquity. Their conscience "WEEPS"...they grind/"gnash" their teeth "with the hypocrites, there men will weep and gnash their teeth" means that you shouldn't violate the dictates of your conscience or you will be a hypocrite).

Hypocrites and unjust people will return to the ground/soil (CURSED).
---faithforfaith on 5/5/15


No. I said Jesus frequently spoke in fictional parables,...
We really have no way of determining...
---StrongAxe on 5/5/15

You got in over your head again and you are drowning in your own denials now.
If you don't know either way then you couldn't declare they are "fictional".
Since you have nothing to foundation them with in life or scripture and we do, they very well can be based on actual events or events that will happen. Some that have some that will. Like the Ten Virgins representing the North House of Israel.
Mar_4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

(So cluny immigrated from a corner of the Bible Belt. Must have been (Rome. Ga).
---Trav on 5/5/15


micha9344 said: But that is exactly what you said earlier.

No. I said Jesus frequently spoke in fictional parables, NOT that he never said anything else."Jack eats oranges" does not mean "Jack eats nothing but oranges".

We really have no way of determining either way.

True. However, parables are stories told using allegory - just as above. Jesus is real, Jack is not.


Trav said: The "Christian West" was known Globally. Even in the dark corner you immigrated from.

This is a common conceit that Christianity was practiced in the west, and nowhere else. Also, Cluny is from the Bible Belt. Do you think the Bible Belt is dark? Or are you just making stuff up?
---StrongAxe on 5/5/15


/No, I am not saying that these things NECESSARILY didn't happen at all, just that, as parables, they MIGHT not be factual.\-StrongAxe on 5/1/15
-But that is exactly what you said earlier.
/Jesus himself frequently spoke using parables (that were fiction)...\-StrongAxe on 4/26/15
-But I am glad to see that we can all agree that, just because it is a parable, it doesn't have to be fictional.
My point of view is that none of them were, although they may have metaphors in them.
Metaphors are vastly different than parables, though both communicate thoughts and ideas.
We really have no way of determining either way. Our finite minds may think something is illogical or extraordinary, but such is life after the curse.
---micha9344 on 5/4/15


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\\2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray,...and will heal their land.
\\
This is a promise to Israel...
Since when was the USA called by God's name?
---Cluny on 5/1/15

The "Christian West" was known Globally. Even in the dark corner you immigrated from.
Israel was scattered.
Are around you now.
Joh_11:52 not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Amo_9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked: ...
---Trav on 5/4/15


The People who follow GOD in the UTnited States are part of the true Israel of GOD. The people of the entire world belong to GOD.

The words of the Bible all of the Bible are for all people. 2Tim 3:16.

We have to correctly understand them. But they are for us.

Psa 1:1,2

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Rock of Ages
---Samuelbb7 on 5/4/15


micha9344:

You said: You're telling me that these things don't happen, just as a person can't be a vine, nor swallow a camel?

No, I am not saying that these things NECESSARILY didn't happen at all, just that, as parables, they MIGHT not be factual. The very fact that Jesus frequently spoke in metaphors indicates that he was very capable of speaking truths that were not actually factual.
---StrongAxe on 5/1/15


\\2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
\\

This is a promise to Israel (God Strove).

Since when was the USA called by God's name?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/1/15


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Thank you Strong Ax good point.

Trav the story applies to your life. As many of the stories apply to my life. But that does not make the stories Factual.

The King represents GOD. The man who owed money represents sinners. The First sinner sought forgiveness and received it. But instead of being generous with others he was selfish and demanding.

When the King saw that he arrested the man and placed him in prison for his debt because he was refusing to follow GOD.

Matthew 6:12
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

It is only when we take these parables and apply them to ourselves we truly understand their meaning.

Rock of Ages cleft for me.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/15


StrongAxe, you are still using figures of speech, such as "swallowing a camel", "I am the True Vine", and others to explain away "Behold, a sower went forth to sow"(Mat13:3), "a man which sowed good seed in his field"(Mat 13:24), a man and mustard seed(v31),a woman and leaven(v33), and so forth.
You're telling me that these things don't happen, just as a person can't be a vine, nor swallow a camel?
I don't think I'm the one confusing literal and figurative here.
Mat 15:13-14 is a parable with figures of speech in it(obviously), but none-the-less is not fiction.
Eze 24 has a parable, a real example conveying a deeper meaning. the pot is real, but it is also an allegory for the nation.
---micha9344 on 5/1/15


Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.
---micha9344 on 4/30/15

Amen 100%.
Reality for me: I've been the prodigal son, my debts forgiven.
They are reality situations and could have came from or expect a reality.
Like prophecies are a reality if they come true.
Considering what Christ said about the parables, still applicable today. Christ still had to open/expound to the apostles...a key thing. Mar 4:10 when he was alone,... the twelve "asked of him" the parable.
.
Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, "all" these things are done in parables:
---Trav on 5/1/15


micha9344:

You said: Neither of you have any idea whether these parables (stories to convey a deeper truth) were brought from historical reference or not.

Neither do you.

Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.

No, it is taking the Bible at its word by calling many of Jesus's stories parables, which are allegories, which are allegorical archetypes, and not necessarily factual. Do you believe Jesus was a vegetable? Because taking everything Jesus said as factual requires you to.

We all understand allegory and metaphor as legitimate linguistic constructs - except biblical literalists frequently think Biblical language works differently from all others.
---StrongAxe on 4/30/15


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Using euphemisms as examples for allegory is rather odd, wouldn't you think?
If one desires a key word, lets focus on the word "certain."
In context the definition is "of a specific but unspecified character, quantity, or degree."
/The parable of a King forgiving a debt is not factual.\-Samuelbb7 on 4/29/15
One would have to have all knowledge to make such a statement. Even if it sounds extraordinary to a finite mind, Jesus, who has this knowledge, can use historical events as analogies.
Neither of you have any idea whether these parables (stories to convey a deeper truth) were brought from historical reference or not.
Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.
---micha9344 on 4/30/15


The parable of a King forgiving a debt is not factual.

Matthew 13:27 is probably not factual.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/29/15

My King promised to forgive my debts. Factual.

2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Matt 13:27:
Would be factual in life and factual in parable.
Seed still and even more so in the past was almost always contaminated with weed seed, unless it is carefully screened.
---Trav on 4/30/15


micha9344, Leon:

Dictionary defines parable as "a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.". The key word here is "allegory".

Jesus frequently spoke truths that were not factual. Pharisees did not have throats wide enough to swallow camels. They were mammals (humans), not reptiles (vipers). Even though Jesus was "the Vine", he was not a plant. There was no furniture made of Jesus wood, nor wine made of Jesus grapes.
---StrongAxe on 4/29/15


Parables are stories told to prove a point.

The parable of a King forgiving a debt is not factual.

Matthew 13:27 is probably not factual.

Luke 17:7-10
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken, and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/29/15


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I also would like to know which were fictional and how SA knows they are.
---micha9344 on 4/29/15

Parables related to life events. GOD knowing every fact of everyone's life could use actual life events or speak from future.
The word "Parable" can be a proverb or comparison.
Mar_12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, set an hedge about it, digged a place for the winefat, built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
Mar 12:12 ...for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: ...
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
---Trav on 4/29/15


\Which parables taught by Jesus were fiction? I always thought He always spoke the truth. (Jn. 14:6)/-Leon on 4/26/15
I also would like to know which were fictional and how SA knows they are.
---micha9344 on 4/29/15


If someone says the enemies of God will stand full in the face of God at the end of time they do not know the scriptures.
---trey on 4/24/15

Well, as noted...it wasn't scripture the person was referring too.
He mentions where "he was coming from". These imaginary seeds were planted by the author he recommends. Not scripture.
A run amok monk.
He won't be standing either.
Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,
---Trav on 4/29/15


///...Fictional parables are not factual, but they are truth.
---StrongAxe on 4/28/15///

HUH?! Are you hoping I won't know no better? smh

Again, which parables taught by Jesus were fiction (made up)? I always thought He always spoke the truth. (Jn. 14:6)
---Leon on 4/29/15


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\\GOD, Christ and his scriptures should lead us.\\

When will you start letting them lead you?
---Cluny on 4/29/15

I stated "should". Probably had you in mind, can't remember.
They have led me to scripture shining a reproving light on you.
Your witness, is in what you have not stood for or defend for in scripture. Versus worldly things you embrace and kneel before.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

2Pe_1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
---Trav on 4/29/15


\\GOD, Christ and his scriptures should lead us.\\

When will you start letting them lead you?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/29/15


Trav:

I used my real name when I joined these blogs, but somebody else was using it, so I chose another.

You said: you are an "Axe" of a kind defending "abominational" platforms.

Which ones? As I pointed out several times, saying "The Bible says/does not say X" or "Accepting X while rejecting Y is inconsistent" says nothing about my own personal opinions about X or Y, but many are acrobats, always jumping to conclusions.

Truth is not pretty sometimes. It doesn't make it not truth.

Advice you would do well to ponder yourself.


Leon: I always thought He always spoke the truth.

Fictional parables are not factual, but they are truth.
---StrongAxe on 4/28/15


Trav:
You said to Monk_Brendan: I've seen no one here that dislikes you.
Your frequent use of spurious name-calling ...might easily lead people to other conclusions.
---StrongAxe on 4/25/15

GOD, Christ and his scriptures should lead us.
Getting older I have less patience for titles. Preachers, Priests, Reverends, denoms etc. More efficient to just cut to the meat. If a man calls his self lets say, a Strong Axe...ones "conclusion" is the title representative.
This was a fair "chop" but, weakened by knowledge you are an "Axe" of a kind defending "abominational" platforms.
Truth is not pretty sometimes. It doesn't make it not truth.
You can't use "UglyAxe".
---Trav on 4/27/15


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Speaking of wasting time, I've decided to no longer engage people like Trav & Kathr in conversation...
---Leon on 4/26/15

You've blessed us. Will be less embarrassing for your un-scriptural positions. Since you are fishing for a fight by this post we'll see what you are baiting lines for.
We surely appreciate your humility in declaring posted scriptures waste time with you. (I'd already figured it out) but, you do make good opportunity's to expose posers.
Psa_120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
Luk_6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
---Trav on 4/27/15


///...Some fiction can be much more educating & edifying than non-fiction... Jesus...spoke...parables (that were fiction)...---StrongAxe on 4/26/15///

'Axe: I like (in small doses) fiction stories (books, movies, TV dramas, etc.) that make valid, factual points. But,fiction depends entirely upon the immutability of facts (non-fiction). Fiction is a malleable fabrication of facts. Without smatterings of facts, fiction couldn't exist. Yet, facts independently support themselves. Truth stands alone! Fabrication needs crutches.

Which parables taught by Jesus were fiction? I always thought He always spoke the truth. (Jn. 14:6)

A dog barked "Christ is risen" on this blog. Did you hear it? Most peculiar!
---Leon on 4/26/15


/Jesus himself frequently spoke using parables (that were fiction)\-StrongAxe on 4/26/15
What makes you believe they were fiction?
---micha9344 on 4/27/15


Leon:

You said: 'Axe: C.S. Lewis was indeed a great Christian apologist & writer. It's just that, at my age, I choose not to let fiction consume what's left of my time.

Some fiction can be much more educating and edifying than non-fiction. Many of Lewis's novels are like this. Jesus himself frequently spoke using parables (that were fiction), and we find some of his most profound teachings are of this form.
---StrongAxe on 4/26/15


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\\It's just that, at my age, I choose not to let fiction consume what's left of my time.\\

You just speak and write fiction on here.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/26/15


///...C. S. Lewis (the much-loved Christian apologist and author) wrote a fantasy novel called The Great Divorce...///

'Axe: C.S. Lewis was indeed a great Christian apologist & writer. It's just that, at my age, I choose not to let fiction consume what's left of my time.

Speaking of wasting time, I've decided to no longer engage people like Trav & Kathr in conversation since neither apparently are not in their right minds. Pray for their deliverance, but don't feed into their self-absorbed madness. Like the "it'll never happen" fictional tourist from hell, they're miserable in heavenly surroundings, so LEAVE THEM ALONE!
---Leon on 4/26/15


Leon:

C. S. Lewis (the much-loved Christian apologist and author) wrote a fantasy novel called The Great Divorce, that dealt with a group of tourists from hell going on a tour of heaven, then quickly returning because they found the goodness and reality there too painful to bear.

Trav:

You said to Monk_Brendan: I've seen no one here that dislikes you.
You are likeable type of guy. It's an irony that the those who tell you the truth you'd call your enemy.


Your frequent use of spurious name-calling (including "mid-evil" in this very message) might easily lead people to other conclusions.
---StrongAxe on 4/25/15


\\It's an irony that the those who tell you the truth \\

The real irony is that you've not told the truth yet, Trav.

Leon, RIVER OF FIRE looks at scriptures to come up with its conclusion. I'm not saying this book is the last word on Orthodox eschatology (it was actually a speech delivered before Orthodox bishops, priests, and faithful), but it provides food for thought--even if you disagree with his conclusions.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/25/15


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The scriptures say:
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (KJV)

If someone says the enemies of God will stand full in the face of God at the end of time they do not know the scriptures.
---trey on 4/24/15


No, I do not use the KJV. I have been using it to quote from on these blogs because some people would find more reason to dislike me.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/15

I've seen no one here that dislikes you.
You are likeable type of guy. It's an irony that the those who tell you the truth you'd call your enemy.
Gal_4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Amo_3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Just because your opinion doesn't agree with my scriptures doesn't make me dislike you as a person.
It's your mid-evil church one shouldn't yoke with.
---Trav on 4/24/15


Thx for the reply Monk. But I'm really not interested in any extra-biblical speculations that doesn't square with Scripture.
---Leon on 4/23/15


Leon said, "Who has "suggested" that heaven & hell are the same experience Monk?"

Would standing full in the face of God's love not be torment for the damned?

Would standing full in the face of God's Love not be glory for the saved?

Look up River of Fire by Alexander Kalomiros. Read it. That is where I am coming from.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/23/15


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Who has "suggested" that heaven & hell are the same experience Monk? How does that square with what Scripture says? Surely, that's where this conversation should've began since Christians must always consider the source of statements & doctrines. (John 10) Whose voice is active? Does God indirectly suggest or does He directly state facts?
---Leon on 4/22/15


Samuel

You make it sound like all will be saved. Not so, not all that says Lord Lord will inter heaven.
No doubt then you prob think the devil will be saved also.

For many is going down, Mat.7 v 13, Destruction hell & the lake of fire. It's the peoples choice, Not God'S choice.

Glory to God The Father which Is & who Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 4/21/15


True Micha

Soul sleep which is part of Conditional-ism. Points to the fact the dead are not truly dead but asleep and will be awaken in the Resurrections of the Dead. The Righteous to eternal life.
The wicked to the second death. Where they will truly be dead.

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/15


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
A dichotomy is produced when doctrines, such as soul sleep, are used to interpret the Bible.
The confusion between physical and spiritual, even in regards to death, is an underlying factor.
---micha9344 on 4/20/15


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Lawerence

In order to be alive and tortured for all eternity they have to be give eternal life.

Tell me who would you like to torture forever?

GOD is love and torturing people forever is not loving.

Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Born Once die twice. Born twice die once.

The way of the cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/20/15


Samuel

I didn't say eternal life.
It Is actually though by many peoples choice Mat.7 v 13, their names are not found in the book of life will be in torment throughout eternity. And it's their choice, due to their disobedience.

Glory to God The Father which Is & who Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 4/19/15


Cluny : There's no such thing as departed spirits ! (as transformed humans) Every time you exhale (pneuma/spirit) departs !
Just continue to be in good spirits !
Surely you can tell the difference between spirit & spirit!
---1stcliff on 4/19/15


Correct Cluny those three words are translated hell. But also sometimes the Grave.

Gehenna had dead bodies burned there. They did not toss living people in it to burn. Tarturaos is also translated outer darkness.

The Wicked are not promised immortal life in any form.

I must needs go home by the way of the cross,
Theres no other way but this,
I shall neer get sight of the Gates of Light,
If the way of the cross I miss. Refrain:
The way of the cross leads home,
The way of the cross leads home,
It is sweet to know, as I onward go,
The way of the cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/19/15


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\\The word for Hell in the New Testament is also from the word Hades. ...\\

In the Greek NT, there are actually THREE words that are rendered "hell" in the KJV.

1. gehenna--Originally the valley of Hinnon outside Jerusalem which was originally a place of human sacrifice and became the garbage dump.

2. hades--equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol or place of departed spirits.

3. Tartaros--the place of eternal punishment in Greek thought, which St. Peter did not hesitate to use.

In my own liturgical translations--a task not unlike translating the Bible--I prefer to use gehenna and sheol, as "hades" and "hell" have both become trivialized and frequently confused.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/18/15


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Lawerence you did not quote the Bible verse. It says second death not eternal life in torture.

The word for Hell in the New Testament is also from the word Hades. The Greek word for the land of the dead and the god of the dead.

So how is hell and death cast into the lake of fire?

For those reading in Greek they would see the Greek teachings of immortal soul in torture being destroyed in the lake of fire.

The Way of the Cross leads home.


---Samuelbb7 on 4/18/15


\\Our English word "hell" comes from the German "hoelle" to bury, cover with earth. In Germany they "Holle" their potatoes !\\

While the words are cognates, along with Hela the Norse goddess of the underworld, it doesn't follow that "hell" comes from the German "hoelle".

In other words, they both came from the same Indo-European root meaning "to hide."

In German "die Hoelle" with the capital means "Hell" or "gehenna".

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/17/15


Heaven is Paradise through out eternity.

For death & hell is cast into the lake of fire & Is Torment through out eternity.
---Lawrence on 4/17/15


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Literature wise the KJV is the best. But the New King James and the New American Standard Bible are great translation.

The Revised Standard and Amplified are also good Bibles.

All these are mostly direct translations. Which is what helps makes a better Bible to study.

Hell is often referring to the Grave. The word for hell is often translated as grave. The Strong's Concordance is available online and helps with finding the original words.

The Way of the Cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/15


The KJV is good literature at least.
---learner2 on 4/16/15


If you don't define "hell" how can you compare it to heaven ?
Our English word "hell" comes from the German "hoelle" to bury, cover with earth. In Germany they "Holle" their potatoes !
In the KJV the Hebrew word sheol is translated 31 times as grave and 31 times untranslated as hell !
---1stcliff on 4/16/15


1st Cliff said, "Monk Brendan, Are you familiar with the four words translated "hell" in the KJV?
Do you know the origin of this word ?"


No, I do not use the KJV. I have been using it to quote from on these blogs because some people would find more reason to dislike me.

My favorite version is the NIV, and after that, the Orthodox Study Bible

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/15


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\\Cliff, if Brendan is a monk, it is doubtful that he uses the KJV.\\

And does it matter which mere human translation of the Bible he uses?

Even the KJV is that--or do you think you're spiritually superior because you use it?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/15


Cliff, if Brendan is a monk, it is doubtful that he uses the KJV.

Anyway, that's not what he was getting at with his question.
---learner2 on 4/15/15


\\Do you know the origin of this word ?
---1stcliff on 4/15/15\\

Do you mean the Greek words or the English word "hell"?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/15


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