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Latin In Catholic Church

I have heard it said that the reason so many people misunderstand the Roman Catholic Church is the use of Latin.

How did Latin come to be the language of the Church, and why do people hate it so much?

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\\Trav: Seven Hills could refer to Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca, San Francisco, or many other cities.
---StrongAxe on 5/1/15\\

But Rome actually sits on NINE hills.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/1/15


kathr4453:

You wrote: Aramaic was most probably the language the Apostles spoke throughout the world.

Aramaic was spoken primarly by Jews, and nobody else. In contrast, Latin was spoken in Rome, and by the educated everywhere in the Roman empire. Greek was even more prevalent, and was spoken in most of the "known" Western world, since it has been in circulation there for several hundred years (much as English is popular in the world today). This is why the N.T. is in Greek, to have the widest readership. Apostles who were prominent in Rome (e.g. Peter and Paul) would likely have used Latin widely as well.


Trav: Seven Hills could refer to Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca, San Francisco, or many other cities.
---StrongAxe on 5/1/15


\\If you know Latin, your English is perfect! It all stems from Latin. Spanish as well. \\

Actually, Nicole, English is a Germanic language, though it has a Romance superstructure.

The arguments I've heard for keeping the old Roman rite (which was never celebrated exclusively in Latin, btw) sound exactly the same as the arguments of the KJVonlyites.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/30/15


The Catholic Church NEVER stop any from reading the Bible.
Everyone is forgetting that the ability to read was among the rich. Even today people can't read or write.
So only the Catholic and Orthodox Church have set reading scriptures to be read out loud during Church Service. (Old and New Testament, plus Gospel read only by the Priest or a Deacon) This way everyone knows Scriptures if they went to Church every Sunday. A Priest can't pick or excluded Scriptures like Protestants Preacher can.
Bibles were also every expensive to buy. Only the rich owned Bibles.
The Catholic Church cares about the poor so they made sure the poor knew the Bible just like the rich.
Paintings and Grave images also explained Bible stories for the poor.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/30/15


\\Cluny, Aramaic was most probably the language the Apostles spoke throughout the world. I would bet Thomas going into India probably spoke Aramaic. If Latin was the universal language, wouldn't Acts say so on the Day of Pentecost?\\

Acts doesn't say they spoke Aramaic, either.

And I said that Latin was the common language in the WESTERN part of the Empire. Do you actually think that Aramaic was spoken in Gaul or Hispania or Brittania?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/30/15




Samuel BB said, "The problem was that the RCC would not let the Bible be translated to the local languages. They did not want people to read the Bible."

Samuel, the problem was not letting people own/read the Bible. The problem was that the western European languages were not well formed enough to handle liturgical and theological terms.

Another reason is that until Gutenberg invented movable type, Bibles were all hand written and heavily illuminated. If a local parish could afford to buy A Bible, it was chained to the Lectern, and put away during Mass (so that people could concentrate on the Mass).

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/30/15


Kathr4453, remember Paul demanded Roman court. He was behead not crucified because he was a ROMAN citizen. If he is writing to the Romans why would he not write it in Latin? Romans spoke Latin, so Paul wrote in Latin for them to be able to read the letter.

Would you write a letter in English to the people in Syria? How you can tell them about Jesus if you don't speak their language??

Acts 22:25B ... "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman citizen, and uncondemn?.

Acts 22:28B... Paul said, "But I was born a citizen."

John 19:20
Many of the Jews READ the title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in LATIN and in Greek.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/30/15


Trav on 4/29/15
concerning scripture reading, and others...

I'm joining the conversation late, have not read all posts.
As a former Catholic, I recall Latin only masses when very small. Truth be told, at that age I possibly would not have understood English much better. I recall having bound copies of missiles, not a bible, though families often owned a "family bible". The missile(spelled missal?) contained select readings from the bible if I'm not mistaken, used in the Mass. I believe there were a variety of missals over time, some for lay people, some for clergy. Not familiar with much about this but as in writings of any sort, incorporating biblical passages, truth mixed with mans ideas may be of concern.
---chria9396 on 4/30/15


Dear people.

GOD gave the Apostles the ability to speak all languages or as the Bible calls it tongues of everyone they meet.

The Apostles were not enemies of the people of Rome. They loved them and would speak to them in Latin. We are to be enemies of no humans. Our enemy is the devil. Our weapons are the Holy Spirit and the word of GOD.

Latin came to be the language of the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox mostly in Greek but if Cluny can confirm. Each country speaks in the language of the native people. Russian Orthodox speak Russian etc.

The problem was that the RCC would not let the Bible be translated to the local languages. They did not want people to read the Bible.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/30/15


Cluny, Aramaic was most probably the language the Apostles spoke throughout the world. I would bet Thomas going into India probably spoke Aramaic. If Latin was the universal language, wouldn't Acts say so on the Day of Pentecost? All they had to do was speak one language...Latin, and Walla, everyone would know what was being said. If everyone heard in their own language, most likely meaning several different languages, then Latin was not the universal language. Again Paul's letter TO THE ROMANS was not in Latin.
---kathr4453 on 4/30/15




And just why would the Apostles not have used Latin in the Western parts of the Empire?
---Cluny on 4/29/15

Latin is Rome, Rome was the enemy. Latin is still the "Seven Hills" ancient language kept alive.
Language used by Christ was Hebrew/Aramaic. Being Christ he could understand and speak any language. The Sheep he commanded the Apostles to seek are Hebrew Israel. Eze_3:5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel,
Scattered among all nations.
Matt 10:6/Matt 15:24.
Israel will be given a new language. Won't be latin, thankfully.
Zep_3:9 ... I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,...
---Trav on 4/30/15


\\The Apostles went through out the world preaching the Gospel, and did not do so in Latin.
\\

And just why would the Apostles not have used Latin in the Western parts of the Empire?

Nobody certainly spoke Italian, Spanish, or French at that point. Those languages did not exist until much later.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/29/15


While it is true that the Romans did speak a form of Latin known as vulgar Latin, it was quite different from the Classical Latin that we generally think of them speaking (Classical Latin is what we usually learn at University). Vulgar Latin is the language that the Romance languages (Italian, French, etc.) developed from. Classical Latin was used as an official language only. In addition, members of the Eastern Roman Empire were speaking Greek exclusively by the 4th century, and Greek had replaced Latin as the official language.

Rome was NOT the official location of the Christian Church. Paul did not write the Book of Romans in Latin either. The Apostles went through out the world preaching the Gospel, and did not do so in Latin.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/15


Latin was the language of Roman. When Christians took over Rome they were speaking Latin all ready.
If you know Latin, your English is perfect! It all stems from Latin. Spanish as well.

Monk, which people are you referring to when saying they hate Latin so much?
The Catholics I know love it when the Mass is said in Latin.
Who are you speaking about who hate Latin? Protestants?
Yes, they hate Latin, but I never heard a Baptist Preacher give his Sermon in Latin???
That's like asking how Puerto Rican started speaking Spanish and why do their kids hate speaking Spanish at home or having Church services in Spanish?
I love hearing Mass in Latin. I know what's going on because I go to daily Mass.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/29/15


Thank you ... Travelosity!
... Jesus Christ is Head of the CHURCH, not the pope or any man, and Protestatitantism was born...meaning to PROTEST Catholicism.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/15

Have facts will..."Travel"
Focus has been revealing. Didn't protest years past. All started with rc's modifying instead of posting scripture.
Surfing for problems they've been having with pedophiles, "catholic clergy crimes" stated hundreds of aids cases. Covered up by the church, it is worse than reported.
No plastic gloves...no wafer.
Psa 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel...
Psa 83:4 They have said, Come, let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
---Trav on 4/29/15


...Protestatitantism was born...to PROTEST Catholicism.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/15

Pope Clement XI On Reading Scripture
From Unigentitus, Dogmatic Constitution issued Sept. 8, 1713:
The following statements are condemned as being error: 79.( Error That):It is useful and necessary at all times,...for every kind of person, to study and to know the spirit, piety, and mysteries of Sacred Scripture.
(Error that)80. The reading of Sacred Scripture is for all.
From the Encyclical UBI PRIMUM of POPE LEO XII, MAY 5,1824:
19. In virtue of Our apostolic office, We too exhort you to try every means of keeping your flock from those deadly pastures.... Convince them that to allow holy Bibles in the ordinary language, wholesale...
---Trav on 4/29/15


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There are several historical errors in what you said, kathr, but I will confine myself to one statement.

\\Protestatitantism was born...meaning to PROTEST Catholicism.\\

Actually, the original meaning of "protestantism" was to protest against the Peace of Augsburg, and its formula of "cujus religio ejus religio"--the religion of the ruler is the official religion of the province and people.

And while I'm at it, Luther himself believed that the Church was something visible and institutional. He did not accept the notion of a true invisible spiritual church.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/29/15


Thank you for posting that Travelosity!

Maybe I'm wrong here, but those who could read, and read translations, began questioning the authority of the Pope, leading to the Reformation. My goodness, even Lither after reading Romans questioned the exclusive interpretation of the RCC's faulty doctrine of works, many of which are not even in the Bible. AND the whole of " What exactly is the CHURCH" ..the RCC's version or scriptures version, showing Jesus Christ is Head of the CHURCH, not the pope or any man, and Protestatitantism was born...meaning to PROTEST Catholicism.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/15


Good outline is "The Top Ten Shameful Moments of the the Catholic Church".
A start point for thousands shameful moments to present years.
Found this tidbit also among hundreds: Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion."
-D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.
Pedophiles, pederasty being the most atrocious recently. Many lives messed up by priests and monks.
---Trav on 4/28/15


Kathr said, "1 Corinthians 14:19-27...Does the RCC have interpreters for those who don't understand Latin? Again, then what good is it?"

Back in the '60s the Catholic Church did something called Vatican II, in which they recognized the need to proclaim the Gospel in the vernacular. However, for long before that, the Missals were printed with one page in Latin, and the facing page in the vernacular. I mean, this goes back hundreds of years, back to the time when most educated people understood Latin.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/15

My question was, what percent were educated and could understand Latin?
---kathr4453 on 4/28/15


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Kathr said, "Monk, said..or maybe Cluny,... WERE actually EDUCATED? AND with that what percent of the members of the RCC were educated ... not educated? My guess is that ...in the dark ages, 99% COULD NOT READ,ETC."

I said that the bilingual prayer books were done up to the time that educated people stopped using Latin. I also said that Newton wrote in Latin, as well as Luther and Calvin.

As far as the Dark Ages, aren't you glad that the Catholic Church kept monasteries alive with monks (like me) copying the Bible by hand, so that when people began to learn to read, there was a Bible around to translate.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/28/15


Cluny, that could never happen if one were interpreting Latin while others in the group may know Latin.. But it did prove a point that while the speaker was speaking Greek, no one knew what was said except the speaker, which edified no one.

Monk, said..or maybe Cluny, that another page was printed so that the "educated " could read it ???? Tells us now, from the beginning of this practice until now, throughout the whole world, what percent would you say WERE actually EDUCATED? AND with that what percent of the members of the RCC were educated compared to the percent not educated? My guess is that throughout history, especially in the dark ages, 99% COULD NOT READ, but believed in the lies of paying someone out of hell ETC.
---kathr4453 on 4/28/15


Well Cluny seems we agree again. Happens not as often as I would like. But it does happen.

By the way in case I forgot. The orthodox do celebrate the correct Easter day.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/28/15


My story.

In a Charismatic group of some kind, there was a member who claimed to have the gift of interpreting tongues. A visitor (not I) raised his hands and said, "Pater imon, o en tis ouranis, agiasthito to onoma sou....." and the rest.

The interpreter began the usual "My children, I am with you to bless you" rap, and the speaker stood up and said, "That was the Lord's Prayer in Greek."

Draw your own conclusions.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/27/15


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\\Does the RCC have interpreters for those who don't understand Latin? Again, then what good is it?
---kathr4453 on 4/27/15\\

Just to remind you, I'm not a Roman Catholic.

However, until Vatican II there were bilingual editions of all the major service books for the faithful.

And in the last 50 years, the typical parish church has had services (Mass and others) in the vernacular.

OTOH, I recall visiting Pentecostal and charismatic groups where there were plenty of babbling in tongues, but NO interpretation.

And I'll have a story about that in my next post.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/27/15


Kathr said, "1 Corinthians 14:19-27...Does the RCC have interpreters for those who don't understand Latin? Again, then what good is it?"

Back in the '60s the Catholic Church did something called Vatican II, in which they recognized the need to proclaim the Gospel in the vernacular. However, for long before that, the Missals were printed with one page in Latin, and the facing page in the vernacular. I mean, this goes back hundreds of years, back to the time when most educated people understood Latin.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/15


1 Corinthians 14:19-27

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret.

However one sees this, whether in a foreign language or a spiritual language....it's clear here one must understand either by interpretation or just speaking where our understanding is involved.

Does the RCC have interpreters for those who don't understand Latin? Again, then what good is it?
---kathr4453 on 4/27/15


The Apostles spoke the language of those they saw. Having the gift of Languages.

They wrote in greek was the universal language of education.

But each person heard the gospel like Kathyr says it is supposed to be in their own language.

Yes Bible were hand copied. The priests did not then read the Bible in the languages of the people.

Some stories were told in pictures. They were told that going to see relics would get them out of purgatory sooner. That the church could give grace since the pope was the only true authority of GOD on earth.

That it did not matter if leaders and priests were corrupt. The office was holy and so the Borgia popes could rule and live in sin. Yet still be representatives of GOD.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/27/15


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Acts 8:29-31

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readeth?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

I'll have to disagree with you Cluny. I looked up every verse using the word UNDERSTAND, and no where are we required to understand Latin in order to understand.
---kathr4453 on 4/27/15


\\Monk, faith comes by hearing...so if it is spoken in Latin..what good is that if no one can understand it.\\

But what YOU are saying boils down to faith comes by understanding.

St. Augustine admitted he had fallen into that error.

"I wanted to understand so that I could believe. I learned that I had to believe in order to understand." Or words to that effect.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/26/15


The Complete Idiot's Guide is actually quite thorough. I would recommend it.
---learner2 on 4/26/15


Cluny, so was Latin taught to those in the RCC who knew no Latin? And was the original letter to the Romans known as the Book of Romans written by Paul to them in Latin?

And Latin was exclusively spoken in Spain in the RCC? Did most Spaniards know Latin when it was spoken? Did the peasants going to church know Latin? Cluny, does the RCC believe, or did they believe Latin was a superior language to all others? or just the Roman Pope was superior to all others? Paul never spoke Latin in Galatia!

I'll stick with Wycliffe, who sent missionaries around the world to LEARN other languages, and then translated the Bible into those languages. Sounds more like what Jesus commissioned in the first place.
---kathr4453 on 4/27/15


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\\During the ages when the little people were not allowed bibles,\\

NOBODY had Bibles when everything had to be copied by hand.

\\Oh it sounds high and lofty, but it isn't. Paul never spoke it, nor did Jesus\\

St. Paul certainly spoke Latin, as well as St. Luke. All people of their educational level did.

And Jesus doubtless spoke some Latin as well as Greek. EVERYONE had to to get along. What language do you think His trial before Pontius Pilate was held in? Hebrew? Or even more, King James English?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/26/15


Monk, faith comes by hearing...so if it is spoken in Latin..what good is that if no one can understand it. Even on the day of Pentecost everyone heard the Gospel in their own language....not Latin.

During the ages when the little people were not allowed bibles, much less in the language they could read and understand , there was so much corruption. Oh it sounds high and lofty, but it isn't. Paul never spoke it, nor did Jesus. But we do know for a fact, on Pentecost everyone heard in their own language, so we know it is God's will that everyone HEAR in their own language.
---kathr4453 on 4/26/15


Ruben it would be impossible for me to boil down the books on Roman Catholicism that I have read in this format or any other.

Most of the books are from the Protestant viewpoint. But I do have some by Roman Catholics which includes at least one history of the Popes.

Two books are "The First Century" by Williams K. Klingaman. "Pagans and Christians" by Fox. I do not have the rest on hand.

You can read an "Idiots guide to RCC". I have scanned it at the book store but did not buy it. Since I had more complete books at home.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/26/15


Trav: ' It was corrupt after 300 years and never changed.'
The real question...
---Peter on 4/25/15

Peter...you sound offended. I get it. I'll belong to no denomination. Most have "hirelings" or wolves in the leadership. Beyond that no denomination testifys in action better than another. Catholicism states they are first and best but, their easily found historical atrocitys as a church and their doctrines are found far apart from scripture.
Now most want to travel with the crowd ...the wide way. I get that too...safety in numbers. But it is the opposite.
Everyone makes their own choices. Some with scripture some by logic of men. Which one do you put your faith in? Man or GOD.
---Trav on 4/25/15


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Cluny while I do not know a lot of Orthodox church history. I do know a fair amount about the RCC.



Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/24/15

Tell me what you know about the RCC?
---Ruben on 4/25/15


Trav: ' It was corrupt after 300 years and never changed.'

If you say that, you claim that you DO know something about the old church, don't you?

In all denominations (including non-denominational groups) things go wrong. That is from human sinful nature.

The real question is why you assume that, when you say 'The survivor "sheep" escaped the Wolves.', you are one of those that did escape the wolves. But how can you say that unless you know what the wolves are - or at least you heard enough to be sure they were wolves.
---Peter on 4/25/15


Cluny while I do not know a lot of Orthodox church history. I do know a fair amount about the RCC.

I have read a collection of the Early Church father's writings.

But my problems are not with the early church. Which was persecuted and poor. My problem is with the Church of the Middle ages who grew rich powerful and corrupt. I do know that the Orthodox under the Emperors of Constantinople became rich and relaxed. But how corrupt they became I do not know.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/24/15


Trav, you're merely proving my point.

You know nothing about Church history but have definite ideas about it.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/23/15


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From what I've read on these blogs, most people here actually know next to nothing about the Early Church ..., ---Cluny on 4/22/15

What is to know? It was corrupt after 300 years and never changed. The survivor "sheep" escaped the
Wolves.
We observe people like yourself consumed and warped by your cult. You've never justified your "cult" with scripture. You rarely use any scripture, just a continuous monotone rant about your cult and sister cults.

Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Eze_34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, none did search or seek after them.
---Trav on 4/23/15


\\They were charged with Heresy and tried in Inquestion courts.\\

The word you're looking for is spelled Inquisition.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/22/15


From what I've read on these blogs, most people here actually know next to nothing about the Early Church (especially the first three centuries), but have definite ideas about it, based on projecting their own present experience and opinions back on to the past.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/22/15


Except the Pope had to give his permission to arrest them. Not just in France but everywhere. It was done on Friday the 13th.

They were charged with Heresy and tried in Inquestion courts. Yes the King paid off Church leaders to get his way.

Which why the RCC is not blameless in this matter.

In the others points I have mentioned they were the direct causes and actors.

Then there is also the Papal wars.

Rock of ages Cleft for me.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/22/15


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\\The knights Templar were held in them and you can read about it.
\\

Actually, the French Templars were arrested by King Philip the Fair of France. It was not a church matter.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/22/15


About the Iron Maiden. Yes it could have been used by Protestants they also tortured people. But it could also have been used by the Catholics who ran all of Europe until the 17th century. Some both could have used it.

The Conditions in Inquisition Prisons I have only seen described as hell on earth. The knights Templar were held in them and you can read about it.

Similar to Judass Cradle, but much worse, spanish donkey was mostly used by the Spanish Inquisition during the Late Middle Ages. It was a sharply angled wooden device of triangular shape, pointing upward, mounted on a horse-leg like support poles.

On the History Channel Special of the Inquisition that I have ever found. It was a horrific to be labeled a heretic.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/22/15


FWIW,the Waldensians became Presbyterians in the USA and merged with the Methodists in Italy in the last 50 years or so.

\\Did you look up the history of the Inquisition?\\

Have you read Walsh's CHARACTERS OF THE INQUISITION? Most of what people think they know about it was spread by a discredited official of the Holy Office.

Walsh mentions that many common criminals claimed to be heretics, because the conditions in the Inquisition's jails were more humane than in criminal prisons. This was confirmed by a program on one or the other of the History Channels.

The only example of an iron maiden that Protestants love to trot out was actually found in a PROTESTANT region of Germany.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/21/15


\\ While a number of partial translations had been made from the seventh century onward, the spread of Wycliffe's Bible resulted in a death sentence for any unlicensed possession of Scripture in Englisheven though translations in all other major European languages had been accomplished and made available\\

The previous tidbit is from Wikipedia, which I know has to be approached with caution. I have read elsewhere that English was the only major European language that did not have a vernacular translation of the Bible before the Reformation.

Contrary to what people think Tyndale was not burned at the stake. He was strangled first.

He was also executed for opposing Henry VIII's divorce and remarriage.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/21/15


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Monk Brendan

We have a hard time knowing what the Cathars taught since all their writings were destroyed along with the towns and even the Catholic people who were their neighbors were executed.

Nice try. Most Historians, that I can find say it was the Pope working to rid France of Protestants who were causing problems. The Priests told their Congregations that anything they stole or did to the Huguenots was good.

In 1215, the Waldensians were declared heretical and subject to intense persecution, the group endured near annihilation in the seventeenth century.

Did you look up the history of the Inquisition?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/15


SamuelBB said, "August 24, 1572, the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France.

You did not answer about the Crusade against the Cathars that also murdered lots of Catholics."


The St. Bart's Massacre was instigated by the king of France to gain the land of the Huguenots. Nothing to do with religion at all.

You cannot tell me that you believe what the Cathars preached, as they were into gnosticism and they believed in two equal gods, God and Satan. So I will talk about the history and politics.

Although Pope Innocent III is given credit for this, it was again a land grab by powerful nobility.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/21/15


Monk Brendan. I apologize for misspelling your name.

The Protestant movement reduced power for the RCC in areas around what became Germany and in England. But not in the whole world.

Let me start with one incident.

August 24, 1572, the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France.

You did not answer about the Crusade against the Cathars that also murdered lots of Catholics.

Latter on the French Revolution finished their power there. Then when the pope was taken prisoner by Napoleon it was thought the RCC would collapse.

PBS did a documentary on the Inquisition concentrating on the one in Spain. There are many good resources on this online.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/15


Brendan by any other name is still Brendan. (,=)
---Steveng on 4/20/15


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Samuel BB said, "No Monk Brendon

The name is Brendan

The Catholic church could no longer execute people after the 1600's because they lost a lot of their power.

Oh really? You have obviously swallowed the lie that the Protestant Reformation cut the legs from under the Catholic Church. It didn't!

The Inquestion while it was still strong did execute people for having bible.

When? Who? Name names and places. Give me particulars. And don't quote from Foxes "Book of Martyrs" because Foxe was remarkably biased against Catholics.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/20/15


In other words, Trav, you have no idea, either.
---Cluny on 4/20/15

Sorry let me explain, since you really don't know.
Christians don't worship with Hebrews/Judeans/jews.
Why would christians care that the Judeans who may not even be Judeans use Babylonian yiddish or any form of Hebrew? They don't believe in Christ after 2000 years.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
---Trav on 4/20/15


Trav, do you and others realize that as a Palestinian Jew, during His earthly sojourn Yeshua ha-Nazaret never attended a vernacular service in the Synagogue or Temple?

Hebrew was not the vernacular of Jews since the Babylonian exile.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/20/15


\\It's post like yours above when we see how confused one can become shuffling along the wide way. \\

In other words, Trav, you have no idea, either.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/20/15


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... NOBODY here ever complains about Jews using Hebrew in worship and even private prayer, even though modern Ivrit is nothing like Biblical or liturgical Hebrew.

Why is that?
---Cluny on 4/18/15

It's post like yours above when we see how confused one can become shuffling along the wide way.
You feel safe in numbers, safe in formula, safe in pomp, safe in ignorance, safe in idols, safe in being led by titles appointed by men...not GOD.
Jer_12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Isa 45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
---Trav on 4/20/15


No Monk Brendon

The Catholic church could no longer execute people after the 1600's because they lost a lot of their power. So you are correct they did not after that time. Before is a different story.

The Inquestion while it was still strong did execute people for having bible.

Yes Eliabeth the first did execute many Catholics for treason. They had been trying to murder her. Did the judges always do right and not take some personal revenge. You are correct some did.

How many Catholics were killed when the Cathar Crusade under Catholic rule wiped them off the face of the earth?

When did the Inquestion end?

The present RCC is not responsible for the actions of past popes. Just their own actions.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/19/15


\\Even at that time the church was not concerned with the common people understanding Latin. \\

Is that why Latin was taught in Catholic schools (at least in the USA) and bi-lingual missals and other prayerbooks were published until the mid to late 1960?

You know, people complain about the Roman Catholic Church having services in Latin, but NOBODY here ever complains about Jews using Hebrew in worship and even private prayer, even though modern Ivrit is nothing like Biblical or liturgical Hebrew.

Why is that?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/18/15


Samuel said, "People were executed for translating the Bible into words people could understand. I many countries to own a non- Latin Bible was a death penalty crime."

This is a lie. When was the last time anyone was put to death for translating the Bible from Latin into the vernacular?

Tyndale, back in 1536.

Any others?

I will grant you that Henry VIII and Elizabeth I killed a lot of Catholics, but not because they owned a Bible

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/15


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Samuelbb7* The Greek Orthodox church from whom the Roman Catholic split from in the 11th century also kept the Scripture.

There has been prior split before the 11th century, just saying !

Samuelbb7* The RCC is always claiming to have done many things that were done before the church split

Like what ??


Samuelbb7* and the RCC declared itslef the only true church inspite of the facts of history.

What facts of history?
---Ruben on 4/18/15


Monk Brendon

We get this idea from reading the history of the time. Martin Luther was highly educated and a great Scholar. Most people could not read or write. They spoke only the native languages.

When I was a child and masses were in Latin. I did not understand them. Even at that time the church was not concerned with the common people understanding Latin.

People were executed for translating the Bible into words people could understand. I many countries to own a non- Latin Bible was a death penalty crime.

The Way of the Cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/18/15


Trav said "
Regarding the latin, the common people didn't use or understand it. Church wanted to retain the power of being the only ones who could read it. The Freaks..."


Just where did you get the idea that the common people didn't understand Latin? This was the common language in Western Europe for centuries.

Martin Luther himself wrote in Latin. Isaac Newton wrote his Principia in Latin.

I have been trying to get you to understand that English was not used anywhere in the world when Jesus was crucified, or for 1300 years after!
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/15


Cluny your history is off.

Until the fall of the Roman Empire many in the west spoke latin. But many spoke various Celtic languages and even when German, French and English in their Archaic form they still had to listen to Latin which even most priests barely knew.

In the Orthodox many spoke Greek and if memory serves me Greek was still spoken long after Latin died out.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/15


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\\Regarding the latin, the common people didn't use or understand it.\\

What language do you think the common people spoke? 21st century English?

At one time, EVERYBODY in the West knew and spoke Latin.

Even the Vulgate Bible got its name because it was translated into the Vulgar or common people's Latin, rather than the literary style of Cicero. (Thereby hangs a tale, but I won't tell it here.) It was very much the "Good News for Modern Romans" of its day.

I might add that the moans of Traditionalist RCs who long for the Latin Liturgy sound exactly like those who think the KJV floated down from heaven upon angels' wings.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/17/15


One can find 10 shameful moments of any church. It's just that pot calling the kettle black when we stoop to that.
---learner2 on 4/17/15


...How did Latin come to be the language of the Church, and why do people hate it so much?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15

An outline on the subject is "The Top Ten Shameful Moments of the the Catholic Church".

Regarding the latin, the common people didn't use or understand it. Church wanted to retain the power of being the only ones who could read it. The Freaks.
Reminds me of the computer I.T. guys today. What we don't know is mucho grande profitable to them...and do they ever lord it over us. Same now as it was then.
Further research is easily done of the key points. Loved this one: Interestingly the office of the Inquisition still exists today under the name Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
---Trav on 4/17/15


Lerner2 It depends.

First there is an invisible church made of all true Believers who follow GOD. They are in all denominations and my guess is that most are Roman Catholic since they outnumber everyone else.

Then there are church bodies. One the Seventh day Adventist denomination I believe to be the Remnant church which teaches all the correct doctrine. But many churches have correct doctrine we just have it all correct.

So I speak to everyone here as Christians no matter our disagreement. For we are Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Not by having correct doctrine.

Some incorrect doctrines can lead you to being lost. Such as you can live in sin and not repent.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/15


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From what I understand from some people around here, the Seventh day Adventist Church is the one true church. Is that true, or not?
---learner2 on 4/16/15


The Greek Orthodox church from whom the Roman Catholic split from in the 11th century also kept the Scripture.

The RCC is always claiming to have done many things that were done before the church split and the RCC declared itslef the only true church inspite of the facts of history.

The way of the corss leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/16/15


leej

What authority do you have for just 27 books in the NT--and those particular 27--other than tradition?

After all, it didn't drop down out of heaven already written, did it?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/15


Leej said, "...However, being a church that puts tradition far far ahead of Scripture persecuted those - like Wycliffe - who dared to translate the scripture into the language of the people...."

As I have posted before, it was that same traditionalist church that kept the Bible alive during the centuries between the apostles and Wycliffe. Vulgar Latin was the language that most Romans spoke, so it was first translated from the Greek and Hebrew into Latin.

Only when English was developed enough to put theological terms into it that Wycliffe was able to translate it.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/15


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Latin was used by the early church as Rome became the dominant and most influential church during the early centuries. However, being a church that puts tradition far far ahead of Scripture persecuted those - like Wycliffe - who dared to translate the scripture into the language of the people. I praise God that the truth won out over the traditionalists.
---leej on 4/16/15


And there you have it!
---learner2 on 4/15/15


Latin came to be the language of the Western (Roman) Church for a simple reason. Most of the European languages had not developed to the point where theological terms could be understood.

Latin was the lingua franca of the 1st century. Greek was spoken by the educated. Most of the early liturgies, and a lot of the New Testament were written in Greek.

St. Jerome was the first to translate the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible to Latin, and he used a "low" form, which is why it is called the Vulgate.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/15


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