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Explain Romans 6:14

Does Paul's statement in Romans 6:14 "ye are not under the law" mean that we are free to disobey the Ten Commandments?

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 ---jerry6593 on 5/4/15
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Jerry, Barb, Samuel,

My last question to you on this subject is, do you believe this next verse and how does it manifest itself in your life?

Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit"

If there is no condemnation to Believers, then the Law has no power because the Law is the ministry of condemnation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/12/15


Does the concept of salvation by faith exclude submission to the law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians 6:2), otherwise known as the law of faith (Romans 3:27)? Certainly not! The principle of faith does not negate the need for obedience, rather, it establishes it. This is the apostles argument. Thousands in the Christian world have missed this important point, and such is a tragedy. The OBEDIENCE of faith far surpasses the obedience to the Law. If one has ever had their conscience purged with the Blood of Jesus Christ to serve the living God, one would not continue to accuse those under Grace of lawlessness. The NEW CREATURE is created in Righteousness and Holiness, that far surpasses the 10. The LAW of Christ has MORE expectation.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/15


21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,

Here Samuel and Jerry, this is what you missed. Romans 4 tells us exactly whAt the Righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW IS. We then look to Abraham for the answer. We see Abraham was 400 years BEFORE THE LAW. We see the LAW OF FAITH in Abraham. And Abraham was IMPUTED righteousness based solely on FAITH. And those who are of the faith of Abraham are Abraham's seed and HEIRS ACCORDING TO PROMISE.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/15


Amen Jerry.

The problem Barb is that many people only take part of Paul's writing. They pick the parts they like and do not reconcile all of them together.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/12/15


Kathr, Paul speaks the truth when he says that the truth is in Jesus. The problem is that back in Eph 2:8-10 he says that we are saved by faith not of works. That is not what Jesus taught. John 3:19-20. Practicing the truth brings us to the Light which shows that our deeds are manifested in God. Jesus does not teach salvation by grace thru faith.

The grace of God is what keeps Him from obliterating this world that Satan has deceived with crafty words and false witnesses. How will we decipher the deceptions ahead of us if we do not have the Word of God written in our hearts and minds and the prophecy of Truth which is the Testimony of Jesus? Rev. 19:10.
---barb on 5/12/15




Mark E.: "I would suggest we leave the Sabbatarians to themselves on this subject. I am beginning to feel that I am following a fool into his folly."

I would respectfully like to point out that Jesus was indeed a Sabbatarian. He is no FOOL, so why not follow HIS example.


"Being free from the bondage of the law is the blessing of grace."

Jesus did not come to save us from the "bondage of the Law", but rather from the bondage of SIN - the transgression of the Law.

Grace is not license to sin, but rather POWER to keep from sinning.



---jerry6593 on 5/12/15


Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


Barb, these words come from Paul. So I take offense to your slander of Paul. What you are saying is YOU don't believe what Jesus taught Paul re: the MYSTERY that was kept secret but NOW revealed, which is CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY.
Is Christ IN YOU Barb? If He were, you would have no problem with Paul whatsoever.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/15


Mark Eaton, Jesus' finished work was His words. John 17:4. His words judge us, John 12:44-50. His words cleanse us, John 15:3. His words sanctify us, John 17:17. He was born into the world to testify to the Truth to all who can hear His voice, John 18:37.

Not questioning the teachings of others may cost you your salvation. The numerous quotes from Paul are correct in that they all teach what each person cites. Paul is a house divided. He is a multiple choice teacher.

Jesus taught one Way, one Truth, one Sheepfold, one Road and one Door.
---barb on 5/11/15


Mark-eaton you don't reconcile your own teachings.

I accept the writing of Paul as Scripture. I am Saved by Grace and no one can now or ever was saved by the law. Only Jesus Christ kept the law perfectly from birth.

One of the Blessings of Grace is freedom to not live in sin. Romans 6. The law defines sin. Romans 3:31 Ijohn 3:4

1Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, also 2Timothy 2:5

Read Romans 2:13

Romans 7:12


I do not argue the law saves us. I point out that we are not to live in sin. But to live in Righteousness.

You have not shown where this is incorrect.

Be of sin the double cure make me whole and make me pure.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/11/15


No scripture teaches such things, but quite the opposite.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15

I would suggest we leave the Sabbatarians to themselves on this subject. I am beginning to feel that I am following a fool into his folly.

I am saddened when people do not acknowledge grace and do not wish to leave the ministry of the Law. To question the Apostleship of Paul and his teachings indicates to me a hardness in their hearts and a lack of forgiveness to themselves and to others. Being free from the bondage of the law is the blessing of grace. Resting in Jesus's finished work is a freedom Believers are meant to know.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/15




kathr4453

I am saved by Grace through faith. I have been Born Again by the power of the Holy Spirit. So because I love GOD I don't worship other gods, have idols, use His name as a swearword and spend Sabbath in a special way with him.

So yes I obey/believe GOD. Similar for the other 6. Now you say all these commandments are done away with and nailed to the cross. If that is true then it would not be a sin to murder people. You do not believe this. But that is what you say.

Sin is transgression of the law. IJohn 3:4

Are you saying that this is a statue done away with?

Deuternomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/11/15


To OBEY the scriptures is also to OBEY/ BELIEVE Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross,

Deut 5:1-6:25: Two whole chapters that deal exclusively with the 10 commandments: Please notice that these two chapters, that deal exclusively with the 10 commandments, starts off with "statutes and the ordinances" and does not use the word "Law" or "Commandments". This is most troubling and confusing to Sabbatarians who view the 10 commandments as "Law" or "Commandments" and not as "statutes and the ordinances" The word "Law" is never found in the two chapters!
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15


Samuel, Truly I have no clue where you came up with that? Isn't the fruit of the spirit LOVE? And doesn't scripture say against such there is no law? When have I ever said GRACE leads to lawlessness? I keep asking you both questions and you both refuse to answer, but post nonsense like your last post. What could you possibly be thinking. I said being UNDER GRACE is harder than being under the Law. And why, if you are so bent on being obedient, do you fail to see THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. Scripture says we are not under law but under GRACE. I OBEY through faith this truth. Why don't you? is it because you don't understand what scripture is saying here? Just say so if that is what you don't understand.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15


Because Kathyr that is what you are saying one time then saying the opposite the next time.

Neither Jerry or I glory in our strength. We are new Creatures in Christ created unto good works. We are to not live in sin.

Why? because we belong to Jesus. We are under Grace so sin will not be in control of our lives. You yourself say this. When we live in Grace we love others and love GOD which leads us to keep the Commandments.

Grace leads us to live in Righteousness. So why are you opposed to living in love?

Rock of Ages.., Be of sin the double cure make me whole and make me pure.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/10/15


Jerry, Where do you come up with being UNDER GRACE means disobedience, lawlessness etc? No scripture teaches such things, but quite the opposite. Matthew is to the JEWS concerning the earthly Kingdom reign called the Kingdom of Heaven. However I am in the Kingdom of God. As a member of HIS BODY, being conformed to His Image, there are no greatest and least. We are all ONE in Christ. I don't have to poke out my eyes or cut off my hands either, because as a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST, ALL OF ME DIED WITH CHRIST, NOT JUST PARTS OF ME. I don't have to worry about taking any flight on a sabbath either. As one who has ENTERED HIS REST, I have peace with God through Jesus Christ. I have been saved from the wrath that is to come.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15


2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Jerry, is God's Grace sufficient for you? IF God's Grace is made PERFECT in our weakness, that the POWER OF GOD rests upon us, why do you continually glory in your strength? Your SELF EFFORT? I believe this is because you have never experienced the Grace of God. If perhaps you had, you would talk about His GRACE verses His Law. There is NO POWER in the LAW.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15


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Kathr: "Jerry, your IGNORANT insults...."

Now THAT's an ignorant insult!

You claim that obedience is a sin disobedience is a virtue. You teach that God's Tan Commandments may be broken at will. Because of this, Jesus Himself (NOT ME) says that YOU are called LEAST in heaven.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Will you now call Jesus' words "ignorant insults"?



---jerry6593 on 5/10/15


Barb, let's not speculate or be presumptuous about why you THINK Peter wrote what he wrote. Peter always had a problem with Gentiles. Even though he did go to Cornelius, it still took a work in him from God to go. BUT the idea if Gentiles getting saved was still not all that popular with the Jews. WHY? because it takes time Barb for people to get over their prejudices. Even SOME Christian churches here in the South are oh so so so so reluctant to go,out and bring in other ....well you know, others who don't look,and talk and dress exactly,like themselves. And those who do are made to feel,like they have to conform and dress and talk like a WASP. Peter and the Jewish council made that same mistake but in reverse. He simply grew up.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/15


Paul didn't BRAG to anyone about anything. The Concision came to Galatia to SNOOP OUT THEIR LIBERTY, so they weren't there giving any right hand of fellowship in the first place. They were so biased and prejudice that they refused to even eat with these dirty Gentiles. Peter, being weak and easily intimidated hung out with them rather than eat with the Gentiles, of which he had previously. So Peter was I fact a hypocrite and Paul had every right to rebuke him in public.
Barb, Paul was a champion for the Gentiles, and was actually killed by the Jews for even preaching to Gentiles and preaching the Gospel at all. Without Paul, none of us, Jew or Gentile would know IN CHRIST there is neither Jew or Gentile, but a NEW CREATURE.
---kathr4453. on 5/10/15


Ok, Kathr. Paul brags to the Galatians about withstanding Peter to his face and says that "whatever they were" Peter and his fellow apostles "added nothing to me" and then calls them "so called pillars" and you believe they were bosom buddies? Peter most likely called Paul a beloved brother because Peter kept the commandment to love your neighbour and to turn the other cheek. And that is what I shall do as well.

---barb on 5/9/15


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Rejecting Paul is rejecting Christ.
Christ is our Head, not Paul, Christ is our Saviour, not Paul, Christ is our Lord, not Paul, Christ died for our sins, not Paul.
Paul is not the Christ, but Christ sent Paul.
The Lord describes Paul as his chosen vessel (Acts 9:15).
Commandments were given to him directly from the Lord .
( Gal 1:12 1 Thess 4:2)
To receive the Lord, men were required to receive Paul. As the Lord commands.(John 13:20)
Paul responded to rejections in almost every epistle he wrote. (1 Cor 11:1,
2 Cor 11:5 1 Thess 4:8)
---michael_e on 5/9/15


Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Jerry, the LAW that is referred to in Romans 8:7, Paul,is talking about the LAW of the Spirit of the life of Christ, NOT the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is what is CARNAL, earthly, fleshly. You said yourself there are many different LAWS in scripture. Romans 8 is not talking about the Law of Moses. The Whole chapter should confirm this, if you can actually sit and read THE WHOLE CHAPTER.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/15


Barb, I'll accept the testimony of Peter when it comes to Paul. If Peter lied about Paul, then everything Peter says can be also considered a lie. Peter warns those like yourself who have a hard time understanding Paul.

2 Peter 3:15-16

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

To YOUR OWN DISTRUCTION Barb.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/15


Jerry, your IGNORANT insults only show you not only are IGNORANT of truth, but just evil in your judge mental accusations. If you want to be UNDER THE LAW Jerry, do so. If you feel being UNDER THE LAW will redeem your soul, you have no scriptural basis for your salvation.

You DENY the CROSS and the POWER of the CROSS, and the doctrine OF THE CROSS, which makes YOU all those things you accuse me of. Being UNDER GRACE does not mean LAWLESSNESS. This is where YOUR IGNORANCE COMES IN. We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH...NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Your boasting is blasphemy Jerry.

You cannot DIE DAILY and still Be UNDER THE LAW. IMPOSSIBLE! When you do, you are not Dying daily. Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 5/9/15


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Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Here Jerry is the WHOLE VERSE you failed to post, again TWISTING the Word of God to conform to your earthly carnal mind. The Carnal mind cannot even grasp what UNDER GRACE MEANS. AND Jerry, read the words before "UNDER THE LAW". sin will not have dominion over you. Your CARNAL MIND, does not understand the spiritual.

We are NOW UNDER GRACE Jerry. God said so, so that's that. Paul is not saying being under Grace is carnal, lawless or leads to disobedience. YOU, an ignorant, carnal, lawless man said that.

So think twice before hurling empty insults that only boomerang back at ya!
---kathr4453 on 5/9/15


Kathr, Paul is talking to the Jews before he is dragged off into the castle in Acts 22. He has been telling them his conversion story to defend himself. He tells it again in Acts 25. Neither time does he provide a witness to back up his story. All you have is Paul's word for it that he was hand picked by Jesus.

Where do you get the idea I stick only to the gospels? Jesus stuck to the Law and the Prophets (old testament) and I get all my truth from His testimony which agrees 100% with the Law and the Prophets. Isaiah 8:20, John 5:41-43.

Your choice of using Paul instead of Jesus to back up almost everything you post just proves to me Paul's great deception. Matt 24:4-5.
---barb on 5/9/15


Kathr, if you knew the Law and the Prophets and the testimony of Jesus then you would know the salvation that has been extended to me.
---barb on 5/9/15


Kathr: "Some simply do not understand what UNDER THE LAW, means."

Amen! And you are chief among them! You are lawless, disobedient and thus of a carnal mind.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the LAW of God, neither indeed can be.



Mark E: Your logic isn't.



---jerry6593 on 5/9/15


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Barb, Paul was personally hand picked by Jesus, just as all the other apostles were. Paul was not on trial in Rome for saying he was an apostle, having to prove his apostleship

The Law and the prophets are about Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. The prophets foretold of his death and resurrection. Isaiah 53, Psalms 22. You Barb, just like unbelieving Jews fail to acknowledge Isaiah 53. The prophets also fortold of salvation to the Gentiles, of which Paul was called to be an apostle to the Gentiles. Paul quotes many OT prophecies concerning YOU BARB. Since you are not a Jew or a lost sheep of Israel, and you exclusively only stay in the Gospels, on what grounds is salvation extended to you, a gentile?
---kathr4453 on 5/9/15


paul either says the same things Christ and the Prophets says to the same people or he doesn't.
---Trav on 5/8/15

Please show me where Jesus himself or the Prophets say these things about Jesus:

John 1:1-4 Jesus is face to face with the Father from time eternal, Jesus is creator and He is the life of all things.

Col 1:16-20 Jesus is creator of all things, he holds all things together, and for Him all things are created

Heb: 1:2-4 Jesus creates the entire cosmos and upholds all things.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/15


You really should read the New Testament.
Rom 2:15 "who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,...
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/15

Lets read it together.
You presented one that does not say "everyone". You are expounding what you are unfamiliar with. Someone has to point them out. They did for me too.
Here is the other witness that explains where, why and to who this was given and written into. Jer 31:33 also.
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 5/8/15


You brought up a subject you can't defend with scriptural witnesses??
---Trav on 5/8/15

You really should read the New Testament.

Rom 1:32 "who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them"

Rom 2:15 "who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them"

Our conscience agrees with the law and it also condemns us.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/15


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Trav
We are constantly having to defend ourselves for the fact we uphold all the law and the Prophets.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/15

Haven't witnessed you using "all" the prophets aligning and fulfilling "all" that Christ spoke.
I've posted many specific scriptures of what Christ and the prophets scriptures yet you run to Romans for example for a "new" doctrine. New Doctrine??
paul either says the same things Christ and the Prophets says to the same people or he doesn't.
You stated he doesn't. If paul doesn't then he doesn't follow the prophets or Christ. Therefore neither do you. Except to fit "your", "new" doctrines.
---Trav on 5/8/15


So by your words Kathr you need to uphold the Ten Commandments.

Rock of Ages cleft for me.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/15

No I don't Samuel. I need to only uphold the CROSS.

If you understood even one thing I have been saying, you would acknowledge this. But you don't. You keep bring the CROSS down, rather than lifting it up. I do not make void the Grace of God, for is righteousness is by keeping the law, Christ died in vain. YOU just don't get it. And to say you do both is IMPOSSIBLE in reality.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/15


\\We are constantly having to defend ourselves for the fact we uphold all the law and the Prophets. \\

Actually, I've noticed that the SDAs here pick and choose about which laws they uphold.

For example, NOBODY in the SDA holds to the law that says you have to go outside the city to relieve yourself and cover it with a shovel you brought with you.

No SDA seems to be keeping the law about married couples sleeping in separate beds during the wife's period.

And so it goes.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/15


Trav I am a Seventh day Adventist and we unite Paul with all scripture. We are constantly having to defend ourselves for the fact we uphold all the law and the Prophets.

(When we walk in the FRUIT of the Spirit, demanding so much MORE than the LAW, not only are we not breaking the LAW, but actually held to a higher calling.) kathr4453

Which is what I am saying. Those who follow JESUS are not breaking the Ten Commandments and are held to a higher calling.

1John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

So by your words Kathr you need to uphold the Ten Commandments.

Rock of Ages cleft for me.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/15


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Paul has no eyewitnesses...
Jesus said "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true". John 5:31-38.
---barb on 5/8/15

Aye. Witnesses speak.
And the lack of... speaks to those who require them.

Aye. Apostle he is not.

(skeuos=vessal) is equipment, implement, apparatus.

Looking at scriptures around him, noted the priest gave him authority in "binding". And that he today has "bound many". Just an observation not a declaration.

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
---Trav on 5/8/15


I brought this subject up to show you...
Everyone knows the law.
Its written on our conscience, everyone's conscience.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/15

You brought up a subject you can't defend with scriptural witnesses??
Everyones?
Not according to the criminal statistics.
You haven't broken GOD's covenant of Day and Night yet.

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jer_33:25 Thus saith the LORD, If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth,
---Trav on 5/8/15


Barb, I think you and I are on the wrong page.
I have no idea what you are tying to convey to me.

I was just telling you the reason why Paul states he is an Apostle as the other 12 Apostle.

The original 12 Apostles were called by Jesus. Then to be an Apostle you had to be voted on to be replace Judas I, as in the beginning of ACTS.

But Paul didn't have to be voted to be Apostle because Jesus knocked him down to get his attention and appointed him to be His follower.

Jesus appointed Saul/Paul Himself.
No one introduce Jesus to Paul, but Jesus Himself.

Apostle and Disciples are not the same.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/8/15


To me, arousal and help in abounding are equivalent to causality.
---jerry6593 on 5/8/15

That is YOUR interpretation, not mine. But please do not tell me what I am saying and do not slander me.

I brought this subject up to show you how silly defending the law is. Everyone knows the law. Its written on our conscience, everyone's conscience.

But the Holy Spirit was given not to convict the Believer of sin, but righteousness. As Believers, we need to be reminded that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, regardless of how sinful or sinless we are. Otherwise, we get into condemnation from our adversary, who uses the law to condemn us.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/15


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Trav, good post. Rev 2:2.
---barb on 5/7/15

Wow, better marks posted by yourself. Thanks Barb. Back pat, made my heart warm. More-so plowing in rock gardens.
Bizarre things going on with paul.
His writings are either corrupted or have been corrupted. Confusion is not found in the Bible like it is in paul's. Was either him or them. Now if confusion is chosen as most popular doctrines and books of scripture?
If entire denom's adhere to paul instead of Prophets, Christ, Apostles? A mark.
We can note here, that none tie a prophet with paul. No defender unites/unify's Christs statements with paul. By ranking order paul is their messiah, putting all faith in paul.
Habakkuk... paul?
---Trav on 5/8/15


Some simply do not understand what UNDER THE LAW, means. Why does Paul tell us in Romans 7, TO THE JEW, that they had to "die to the law" to be married to another? Well for one, the LAW could not produce FRUIT. The FRUIT of the Spirit. OK, what is then the FRUIT of the Spirit? No scripture states the FRUIT of the Spirit is keeping the 10 commandments, or can even be produced by keeping the 10 commandments. Galatians says, against such, there is no LAW. When we walk in the FRUIT of the Spirit, demanding so much MORE than the LAW, not only are we not breaking the LAW, but actually held to a higher calling.
So the question here only shows that the asker simply has no grasp on the life of one UNDER GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/15


Nicole, the apostles of Jesus were called in person by Him and were eyewitnesses of their calling one for another. They did not have to be thrown to the ground, Jesus called and they followed.

Paul does not name the men on the road with him nor does he call them forward as eyewitnesses when he is accused by the Jews and arrested. Instead he claims his Roman citizenship and appeals to Caesar. Neither does he call Ananias forward as a witness. Where did Ananias come from, where did he go? Why does he never come forward to help Paul? Paul has no eyewitnesses to his conversion that he can call upon. Paul cannot be his own eyewitness. Jesus said "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true". John 5:31-38.
---barb on 5/8/15


Mark E:

//You insist that God's Law is the CAUSE of sin.
---jerry6593 on 5/7/15

I said no such thing.

You are superficially reading my posts.

I said that the law arouses sin and helps sin abound.//

To me, arousal and help in abounding are equivalent to causality. You seem to like debate over semantics rather than clear exposition. You must be a Democrat.


---jerry6593 on 5/8/15


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barb do you know why Paul gets to call himself an Apostle eventhough he wasn't secleted when straws were pulled?

To be an Apostle, Jesus Himself has to you to follow Him in Person.
When Saul was thrown to the gound,it is when Jesus spoke to him and made him an Apostle.

Many don't know there is a difference between an Apostle and Discisple.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/7/15


Trav, good post. Keep studying and researching. All that is hidden will be revealed.

Yes Samuel, I read your post. There is a lot of controversy among scholars as to whether Peter wrote the epistle that bears his name. You can research it and decide for yourself.

Did you notice that Peter never called Paul an apostle? Do you know that other than Luke, Paul is the only one in the New Testament to call himself an apostle of Jesus Christ? Rev 2:2.
---barb on 5/7/15


So the problem is not with Paul. But people.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/6/15

You make a great point. Problem: People reading Paul.
Only Paul. Paul is their reference. They don't even understand Paul. If they understood Paul they could utilize Christ and Prophets with Paul.
Never happens here or in denoms.

One one Covenanted "etnos, nation" had the Law. Only one covenanted "ethnos" was married, divorced, to be re-married...by the Law to GOD.
Jerry posted best:
2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---Trav on 5/7/15


If you changed your scriptural priority order, Pauls writings would become visible in truth for you.
---Trav on 5/7/15

I begin with what Jesus said about His Father, about Himself, and about the Holy Spirit. Jesus said only the Son knows the Father and only the Father knows the Son (Luke 10:22).

This means what Jesus says about His Father is true and I know no other Father than the one I see in Jesus. From Jesus I see a Father who forgives, who gives richly, who adopts us into His own family, and one who runs after His children.

I do not see a scorekeeping G.O.D. who says "toe the line or else". You may see that G.O.D. in the OT but remember, it was written by men who did not know who the Father is.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/15


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Samuel, She has heard this all before. It is falling on deaf ears. Her bible has very little in it. She ignores Luke, Acts,2nd Peter, and all of Paul's epistles. Mark, James, Jude and Hebrews are also suspect since they weren't written by the 11 Apostles, leaving only Matthew, John, and Peter as writers of 8 books out of 26 of the New Testament.
Her bible is the one that tells her which books of the True Bible to heed and which to ignore. Her bible is made by man and not God.
I'm not sure what books in the Old Testament she, her master, and his other followers deny.
---micha9344 on 5/7/15


Barb did you read my previous post?

2Peter 3:15,16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you, As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So read the writing of Paul and do not reach for what is not there. There have been many posts here which show Paul upheld the law as what defines sin.

He just wanted to make sure we understood that Grace saves. We love to obey because we are saved.

Rock of Ages.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/7/15


Samuelbb7, Paul does uphold the law in some places but he tears it down in others. Three verses before the verse you quoted in Romans 3, Paul concludes that a man is justified by faith without the works/deeds of the Law. So which is true, verse 28 or verse 31?

He does the same thing in Romans 2:13 and Romans 3:20. How am I taking these verses out of context?

That is the problem with Paul, he is all over the place. He can't seem to pick a side and stick to it. He truly is all things to all people, to the Jew a Jew, to the Gentile, a Gentile, etc.
---barb on 5/7/15


I am sad to see you dismiss 2000 years of teaching on the 14 books of the New Testament that Paul wrote.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/6/15

You and others mistakenly put Paul ahead of GOD, Christ, Prophets. Having to unlearn Pauls misinterpreted doctrines at beginning of my searches was terrible. Paul does confirm prophets but, in a convoluted manner.
If you changed your scriptural priority order, Pauls writings would become visible in truth for you.
He is not an Apostle if he goes against the Prophets. Your interpretations align you and him against them, then Christ in extension.
2Pe_3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord...
---Trav on 5/7/15


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Because God made human beings and not robots we are free to do as we choose BUT we will be answerable for those commandments we break.
---Rita_H on 5/7/15


You insist that God's Law is the CAUSE of sin.
---jerry6593 on 5/7/15

I said no such thing.

You are superficially reading my posts.

I said that the law arouses sin and helps sin abound. I have given you Scriptures that say this.

Sin started in the garden without law being present, therefore the law does not cause sin.

But the Law causes us to focus on the commandment, the restriction, the THOU SHALL NOT. Jesus, I am sure knew this, and worded His Beatitudes in a positive way avoiding the THOU SHALL NOT format. When we focus on the positive we easily avoid the negative. But when we focus of the negative, we have trouble avoiding the negative and doing the positive.

It is fallen human nature.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/15


Mark Eaton, I don't know what the disciples of Jesus thought of Paul's writings but the writings in John's 3 letters speak for themselves about what they were up against.

We can read for ourselves what Paul thought of the disciples of Jesus. He said whatever they were, they added nothing to him, (really?, Paul learned nothing from those who followed Jesus),called them so called pillars, called himself the least of the apostles and yet somewhere else said he was not a whit behind the chiefest apostle.

Jesus gave His disciples a commandment to love one another, telling them they would be known as His disciples by their love for one another. John 13:34-35. Interesting.
---barb on 5/6/15


Mark E: Your superficial reading of Paul's writings has led you to ridiculous twists of logic. You insist that God's Law is the CAUSE of sin. That makes God the intentional author of sin. Blasphemy! The 10C Law defines sin. If there were no law, then there would be no sin. If there were no sin, then we would not need a savior.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



---jerry6593 on 5/7/15


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None Michael you do not break any of them. But if you do we have an advocate with the father. 1john 2:1-3

Barb the writing of Paul do agree with the Testimony of Jesus. It is just that so many people have taken words out of context like the Roman 6:14 statement and try to do away with the law. When Paul says that is false.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You see people ignore this and many other places where Paul upholds the law. So the problem is not with Paul. But people.

Sing Rock of Ages.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/6/15


Paul's writings do not agree with the testimony of Jesus. 2nd John verses 9-12.
---barb on 5/6/15

I am sad to see you dismiss 2000 years of teaching on the 14 books of the New Testament that Paul wrote.

I also find it sad that you use one Apostle's writing against another.

What do you think the "original" Apostles thought of Paul's writings or preaching?

I know if they thought Paul was wrong, they would have declared it so loudly we would have never missed it. These men did not want error to creep into the teaching and were vigilant to keep it out.

Yet, we never heard them say Paul was wrong.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/6/15


If you love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself, which of the ten do you break?
If you say you can keep the ten on your own you already break one
1. No other gods.
2. No idols of GOD or anything else.
3. Do not take GOD's name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
5. Honor Parents
6. Do not commit Adultery
7. Do not Murder
8. Do not steal
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not Covet
---michael_e on 5/6/15


Mark Eaton, Paul's writings do not agree with the testimony of Jesus. 2nd John verses 9-12.

Jesus was successful in fulfilling the Law by keeping the commandments of God while He was in the flesh and teaching us how to do the same. The Law is not a burdensome binding. The Law is what binds us to God. Matt 11:28-30.

Jesus ransomed us from the 2nd death by paying our death penalty as the Passover Lamb. That means that you are free to enter into His Kingdom if you agree to keep the rules therein and hold to His testimony. There will be no sin there because the Law will be written on the hearts and minds of all those who enter. Jere 31-31-33, Rev 22:14-15, Rev 12:17.
---barb on 5/6/15


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Samuelbb7
1. No other gods.
2. No idols of GOD or anything else.
3. Do not take GOD's name in vain...6. Do not commit Adultery
7. Do not Murder
8. Do not steal
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not Covet.

Your first 2 number is the same. Have no other gods before Me includes idol. An Idol means you replace it over God.

But you put humans with animals and property.

God told Moses on the 9th commandment not to covet your neighbor's wife.
10th do not covet your neighbor's property.

I am a Lady.
God died for me not for property.

Or are you suggestions that being envy of your neighbor's wife is the same as his car?
Jesus said lust in the mind is still adultery not being jealous of a car.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/6/15


Michaele have you read the Ten Commandments lately?

1. No other gods.
2. No idols of GOD or anything else.
3. Do not take GOD's name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
5. Honor Parents
6. Do not commit Adultery
7. Do not Murder
8. Do not steal
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not Covet.

The first four are ignored by most humans. Movies spend a lot of time breaking them. The last six are ignored by most people. The Sellers hate the 10th.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/6/15


You think that the (10C) Law causes sin. It does not.
---jerry6593 on 5/6/15

You have been defending the law so long you do not know how to read Scripture.

Since you like the KJV, read this verse and explain to me what it says:

Rom 5:20 "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"

When you see the same thing expressed in multiple Scriptural passages, you need to pay attention.

And why is it that people want to discard the teaching of Paul? Is it because he says what you don't want to hear, that we are no longer under law but grace?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/6/15


No. I don't doubt God's Word...just Paul's. So maybe you can show me where Jesus (God's Word) teaches what you just recited from the words of Paul.
---barb on 5/5/15

Nice post. You give me hope Barb. And inspiration today.

I'm slow so it took me 18 years to realize how tangled up Paul makes the simple words of Christ, the prophets and Primary Apostles.
I find signs Paul was not helped to be understood from the church in some doctrinal transliteration.
Paul's arrogance and writings are a diversion and a division from Christ and all before him in many areas. May not all be Saul/Pauls writing style fault.
Mat_23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.
---Trav on 5/6/15


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No. I don't doubt God's Word...just Paul's.
---barb on 5/5/15

Why do you doubt the teaching of Paul? Does Paul not agree with your theology?

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). The question is, was Jesus successful? Did He fulfill the law and does that remove its binding on me?

If we still need to fulfill any part of the Law, then Jesus was not successful.

Jesus said He came to give His life as a ransom for many, but what did He need to pay and what does that mean to me? Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, our breaking of the law. In doing so, we have been ransomed out of the binding to fulfill the law.

This is the teaching that Paul gives to us.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/6/15


Mark E: "Do you know that the law arouses sin?"

You need a better Bible version.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

You think that the (10C) Law causes sin. It does not. By that reasoning, it is God (the author of the 10C) that is the author of our sins. In fact, it is the 10C Law that defines sin, as:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Do you also think that stop signs cause you to run them?


---jerry6593 on 5/6/15


Not being under Law doesn't mean we throw away the Ten Commandments. They are holy, perfect, and the mind of God. They are the criteria for social behavior whether Christian or non-Christian. The Ten Commandments in themselves are not a religious doctrine, but simply the mind of God, and everything in those Ten Commandment is for mankind's own good. The basic laws of the Ten Commandments establish a good society. but are not a criteria for Salvation, or a set of doctrines, and we're not under them as the Nation of Israel was, and all their legalist priesthood, and sacrifices, this is what Paul is referring to. We're not under that legalist system, we're under Grace, and that's as different as daylight from dark.
---michael_e on 5/5/15


No. I don't doubt God's Word...just Paul's. So maybe you can show me where Jesus (God's Word) teaches what you just recited from the words of Paul.

You can read what Jesus had to say about His Father's commandments here, Matt 5:17-20, Matt 15:1-9, Matt 19:16-24 and Rev 14:12.
---barb on 5/5/15


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So God's commandment to honour your parents makes you want to kick yours in the shins?
---barb on 5/5/15

Do you doubt God's word?

My post included Romans 7:5 which says the law aroused sinful passions. Either the law does arouse sinful passions or it does not. You choose what you want to believe.

Look at this verse, it says nearly the same thing.

Rom 5:20 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more"
---Mark_Eaton on 5/5/15


A text taken out of context is a pretext. In this case taking this verse out of it's context makes it mean what it does not teach.

Rom 6:12-15
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The context says we are not to sin. Read the whole chapter.

Great Hymn. Be thou my vision.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/5/15


Really, Mark Eaton? So God's commandment to honour your parents makes you want to kick yours in the shins? God's commandment not to worship other gods causes you to worship the devil? God's commandment not to murder sends you out swinging an axe? God's commandment not to steal puts your sticky fingers into the collection plate?

Does God expect little children to know not to steal cookies out of the cookie jar? Parents with integrity would put the cookie jar out of reach until the child is old enough to understand that too many cookies will make them sick.

An adult who murders, steals, beats his parents and bears false witness by slander will end up in prison or worse.
---barb on 5/5/15


Does Paul's statement in Romans 6:14 "ye are not under the law" mean that we are free to disobey the Ten Commandments?
---jerry6593 on 5/4/15

My Bible reads "for you are not under law but under grace".

Do you know that the law arouses sin?

Rom 7:5 "For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death"

The Law does not cause sinless behavior, rather it causes sinful behavior.

Look at it this way. If you have cookies in a cookie jar and you tell your children not to eat them, what do you think the kids are going to do when you turn your back?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/4/15


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I agree with Josef, yet my answer is YES, we are free to do so. But this is where our love for the Father and our neighbor comes in. Why would we? As Scott1 has pointed out: Why would we, who our free from sin, live in such?
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God...
-This blog has a air of judgment in it. People who ask this question are not relying on the HS's work in the lives of God's children.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?...
1Co 6:12, 10:23
---micha9344 on 5/4/15


"ye are not under the law" mean that we are free to disobey the Ten Commandments?" No. It means that we are free not to, by and though Father's grace, as His divine influence upon the heart of the believer. The heart, as in the central focus of the believer in life, through, the indwelling presence of His Spirit. He works through us both to will and to do that which is pleasing to Him. The believers focus is on the "righteousness of God in Christ", rather than the dictates of the law,
---Josef on 5/4/15


No, Ch 6 v 1. How can we who died to sin still live in it.
---Scott1 on 5/4/15


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