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I Will Not Forgive You

Can someone whom you asked to forgive you and they outright refused and said, NO I won't forgive you. Can they make it into heaven?

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 ---donna9393 on 5/7/15
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Bill, a good response.
---learner2 on 5/23/15


Learner, I think it is like you would not call a person a liar, if the person does not lie all the time.

A slave is the property of sinning, but a child of God is bought by the blood of Jesus, no longer the property of sin, not always sinning.

Instead of getting too heavy with what label to put on a person who sins, we can appreciate and obey how the Bible says to get correction > Hebrews 12:6-11, 1 John 4:17-18, Galatians 6:1, James 5:16.

And if we are not forgiving like we know we need to, keep on trusting God to change us into naturally and abundantly loving forgivers . . . instead of sitting around trying to figure out what label we should have!!
---Bill on 5/23/15


Then we are all slaves to sin since we all continue to sin as believers.
---learner2 on 5/23/15


What does it mean to be a slave to sin? --learner2

Learner
There are two types of believers. Those who are not free of sin (Slaves of sin), and those who are free of sin (Slaves of righteousness). Paul taught this in (Romans 6:16).

If you are a believer, and still sin, do you want to sin?
If your answer is no, the questions becomes, why do you, do what you do not want to do?
It's because you are a slave.

A believer who is a slave of sin, doesn't want to sin, but they will continue to sin as long as they are slaves to sin.

How do you break this bondage?
Obedience to God, the one who is not yet your master, while you are in sin. Obedience called adultery, in the(Romans 7:1-5)analogy.
---David on 5/23/15


What does it mean to be a slave to sin?
---learner2 on 5/22/15




Kathr I am not a slave to sin. I do sin occasionally and make mistakes but I don't live in sin. When I sin I repent and go to my High Priest Jesus Christ.

To not live in Sin we must be Born Again by the power of the Holy Spirit. John 3. For it is only in Jesus that we can be overcomers. For the Holy Spirit must be in charge of our lives.

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Galatins 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/22/15


Hi, Donna (c: If someone refuses to forgive you, you can have hope for that person, in prayer for that person.

Love "hopes all things" > in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

Even when we read the Bible, we can be too fast to first think of bad possibilities of what its commands and teachings can mean.

Like this, when people do what is wrong against us, and even when God blesses us with rain . . . we can be too fast to think about what can happen that is bad.

But I consider that those brothers of Joseph > Genesis 37-50 > were bad to him, but with God he used that for their good > Genesis 50:15-21 > their father died, and they were thinking of a bad possibility, but Joseph was ready with love and forgiveness.
---Bill on 5/22/15


Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin. I agree with this. -kathr4453

Kathryn
If you believe this, are you a slave of sin?

And if you were born in sin, AKA born DEAD, as in Adam all die, how were you delivered from the bondage of sin and death?-kathr4453

(1 Peter 1:22)Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren..
(James 4:8)
Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light,...... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
---David on 5/22/15


Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin. So you believe what Jesus said..so,this part is true...correct? I agree with this.


And then you say most doctrines say what Jesus said is not true? Is that correct?

So, are you a slave to sin David? Or are you saying you are sinless? And if you were born in sin, AKA born DEAD, as in Adam all die, how were you delivered from the bondage of sin and death? Or were you born sinless? So when John the Baptist said( in the 4 gospels) BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD, were you included with THE WORLD? Or not?
---kathr4453 on 5/21/15


David, may I ask which denomination you belong..--kathr4453 on 5/19/15

Kathryn
Sorry, I was traveling yesterday and couldn't get to your question.

I am of the same faith as Jesus Christ. As a follower of Christ, you can research my statement of faith in the Gospels of Christ. For I believe every word he spoke, and I teach his words as Truth.

Kathryn, there are four books in the Bible we know are the Truth. When you know the truth, you can see the lies.
Therefore Every word of mans doctrine, which is opposed to the word of Christ, is a lie.

Jesus said, "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin."
This is false according to most doctrine's, and this is why I call these doctrines a lie.
---David on 5/21/15




Trav, New Covenant surely has Judah and the house of Israel, God's promise to them,...
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15

It is hard to accept for most people. No preacher or teacher ever speaks/teaches/preaches of the New Covenant. Took me several years to connect the witnessing scriptures around it.
The New is to same people as the Old. A new one wouldn't be needed if the Old one worked. There are firm reasons it doesn't say: House of Israel "and Judah and "all Ethnos". 1. It is a renewed marriage to a free/clean former wife.
Jer_31:31...
Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 5/21/15


Yes Samuel, in the OT and up to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Gentiles who joined themselves to Israel were called proselytes. Today we are JOINED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST a whole new thing, no longer Jew or Gentile. So Gentiles today are not called proselytes of the Jews.
Ephesians explains this pretty clearly. But it is a matter of personal faith that one believes this fact.
---kathr4453 on 5/21/15


First Kathyr Gentiles could join the Jewish people. It was open to all. Jesus in the New Testament refers to Jewish converts. Also there were many gentiles who attended Jewish Sabbath services. See Acts. We know from history they were called God Fearers. They followed many Jewish beliefs but were not circumcised.

They formed the many early gentiles who joined the Church.

The New Covenant is the everlasting Covenant.

GOD chides and reprimands his church. Calling it to live in righteousness and love. Read Matthew 25 about the sheep and the goats. Many religious people will be lost.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/21/15


Trav I understand you can't post the whole article.
But, you can post the sources.
When I said not all is when you make statements out of thin air (in my opinion which will be different from your opinion).

I am grateful that you cite your sources.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/21/15


If you think you believe in Jesus and then curse His church, perhaps you don't believe as well as you thought.-Mark_Eaton on 5/18/15

Mark
Perhaps you need to read what Christ said to his church in (Revelation 2 & 3).

If you do not believe what Jesus taught, are you not calling his teachings a lie?
Do you believe what Jesus taught in (John 8:34)?
In (John 14:21)?
What his disciple taught in (Romans 2:5-7)?
---David on 5/21/15


Mark_Eaton. Loved your post. Scripture is full of things like you just posted. Awesome!

Trav, it is the will of God that all men repent, therefore it is God's desire that all be saved. The Abrahamic Covenant. Also known as the EVERLASTING COVENANT, is somewhat different than the New Covenant. The New Covenant surely has Judah and the house of Israel, and God's promise to them, HOWEVER we need to see, the New Covenant replaced the OLD Covenant that was made to Israel alone. BUT the Everlasting Covenant God revealed to Abraham was that in thee will ALL families of the earth be blessed. This one INCLUDES Gentiles. Abel was not under the NEW Covenant, but WAS under the Everlasting Covenant, made before the foundation of the world.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


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Mark_Eaton, other blog closed. Book "The Christian School Teacher" by Duane Hopper. Also attests to Baylor, a Southern Baptist University ( sorry not seminary) had/ has Mormon teachers on their staff. There was a big ruckus with this at the Southern Baptist Convention years ago, as Baylor is a SB school, but it just quietly stopped being discussed. I also read and heard about this years ago and was shocked UNTIL one Sunday, while attending a SB Church, the Pastor stated we should be more like the Mormons. Then I see Ravi Zacharias went to Salt Lake City on invitation and gave them the right hand of fellowship. Boy did that cause heads to scratch.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


I also believe that God predestined the entire world to adoption as sons thru Jesus
before the world was created ..
He has allowed us to decide if we want adoption or not.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/20/15


Really. But, you have no scriptures to support your belief?
These are for your self doctrine of universalism.

1. Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
2. Mar_4:11 ...Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,...
3. Mat_15:24...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
4. Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
---Trav on 5/20/15


Always bearing about the dying of Christ IN OUR BODY that the LIFE of Christ is manifest IN OUR BODY.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15

My take on OSAS comes from the burnt offering of the OT.

The death of Jesus fulfilled all 5 types of OT offerings.

Most know of the sin offering, how the sin of the person was transferred to the animal and provided limited atonement.

The burnt offering was just the opposite. The burnt offering was a sweet smelling aroma to God and provided righteousness. So righteousness was transferred from the offering to the person.

By being baptized into Jesus death, we appropriate that righteousness for all time. Just as the sin offering of Jesus was for all time, so it the burnt offering.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/20/15


1 Corinthians 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Here is the HEART OF THE GOSPEL. I honestly don't think many truly understand or have even experiences daily of the Power of the Cross. This I also believe why so many don't understand OSAS in it's true doctrine. The power of the cross is continually working in the lives to US WHO ARE SAVED. This is also our sanctification. Being made conformable to His death. Always bearing about the dying of Christ IN OUR BODY that the LIFE of Christ is manifest IN OUR BODY. Galatians 2:20-21. Self effort voids out the POWER OF THE CROSS, Paul called falling from GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


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I believe in FREE WILL, OSAS, and Predestination.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15

Amen sister. Very well presented and stated. I believe the same as you do.

I also believe that God predestined the entire world to adoption as sons thru Jesus before the world was created and that He has allowed us to decide if we want that adoption or not. Once we do, then everything flows as you have said.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/20/15


Trav, will cite some of his research, but not all.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/19/15

There is never room for all references. Or research.
All you have to do is ask for more my sources in an extended post.
All sources are available to anyone that they can look up themselves with key words.
Most won't go research further, because they don't want a confirmations against their positions. They want what they want.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they "received the word with all readiness of mind", and "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".
Act 17:12 "Therefore many of them believed", ...
---Trav on 5/20/15


Samuel, the Calvinists doctrine of predestination married with their OSAS is what you question. I abhor that doctrine, as you should have noticed when MarkV was here. Their doctrine of predestination and no free will is a false doctrine. Unfortunately those like yourself believe that is the doctrine of OSAS. I guess you never read any of my rebuttals to MarkV or Christan or John T or Lisa over these past 10 years. ALL of them hated me to the core.

I believe in FREE WILL, OSAS, and Predestination. We all have the free will to repent, THEN once we are saved we are THEN predestined to be conformed to His Image, seeing only those IN CHRIST can be conformed to His Image....totally the work of God = OSAS.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


//But I have been told that I am lost because I believe in Free Will.//

I had to smile at that, I was once told if one did not believe in a Pre-trib-Rapture he probably wasn't saved, which I don't, and the person knew it.
---Rod4Him on 5/20/15


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Kathr, I am not your Child.
I AM FREE to speak to David if I wish.
Again, you keep talking to me and playing games.

I have to right to correct your falsehoods about the RCC.
You are not Catholic, so please stop acting like you are an expert or have a PhD about the RCC.

We have all our beliefs in the CCC in a book form or go on line. They are numbered so you can cite them to me to back up your falsehood.
Have you read any of my post talking about SDA? WHY?
Because I AM NOT A SDA.

As least Trav gives a reasons for his statement.
You just fuss all time.

Ignore me. Don't read my blogs.
Are you an American?
If so act like it.
This is FREE COUNTRY!
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/20/15


I have read the words of a number of ex-sda's who now believe once saved always saved.

I read the lies and false stories they make up. I read the hatred in their stories.

So I do not believe that a person who attacks Christians with lies and false accusations is a Christian.

I have never told anyone they are lost for believing osas. I have just taught a person cannot live in sin and hatred and be saved.

But I have been told that I am lost because I believe in Free Will. Do you believe in Predestination. For that is the only way osas can work. That we have no choice.

On Christ the solid rock I stand.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/20/15


Samuel on the blog, "Once Saved Always Saved" I showed you verses in 1st John, and you ended the blog. AMEM KATHR! anyone reading all of first John can see those born of God in relation to sin. The book is those Born of God vs those who are not, and how to tell those who are not vs those who are. Very clear cut. No mention of ever being UNBORN of God after being Born of God.

AND Hebrews 6 is very clear one CANNOT CRUCIFY THEMSELVES With CHRIST AGAIN. a person cannot be crucified with Christ and then uncrucify themselves, and then again crucify themselves. it doesn't work that way.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


Samuel, have you ever met someone who LOST their salvation? And you know for a FACT they did? And what is your criteria for one LOSING their salvation? Are you saying an SDA who leaves the SDA's and lives by Faith alone Grace alone has lost their salvation?
God made a covenant with David called the Davidic Covenant. In that covenant God told David, I will never take the Holy Spirit from you. How much more today under the Everlasting Covenant, based on EVEN BETTER PROMISES, that not only will God not take the Holy Spirit from us, of " Being SEALED " Ephesians. When God has SEALED YOU, you can no more break that seal, then Noah could have opened the ARK door God sealed.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/15


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Wrong Samuel. No one can be LOST AGAIN. it only shows one was never saved to begin with just as 1st John states VERY CLEARLY. Or is this just another part of scripture you reject? kathr4453

Dear Kathr I reject no scripture. I simply like to make sure they all match.

I am glad that you believe that a saved person will live for Jesus. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved. It is only through Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we overcome our desire to sin.

I do not get where !john teaches once saved always saved.

On Christ the Solid rock I stand.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/19/15


Nicole, you are acting like a three year old here. My conversation with David has nothing to do with your childish interference. Because I choose to ignore you, like a spoiled child, you have to follow me around each blog and try to start something.

Please get it through your head it is BECAUSE of your childishness , and crude / brass way you conduct yourself in how your express yourself, here on line that I do not want to debate with you. You "LOVE THE GAME" is not my cup of tea.


Please grow up and please move on.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/15


David, she will do no research on your Church, but make a statement claiming it is from done research with no sources to be giving to you.

I know, I been down that road with her.

Trav, will cite some of his research, but not all.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/19/15


David, may I ask which denomination you belong to so I can research YOUR church's statement of faith. Evil never dies David nor does sin die. WE DIED WITH CHRIST. We've put OFF the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ being buried with Him and raised a New Creature. Colossians 2, Romans 6.
Don't omit the "WITH CHRIST" part here. No where does scripture teach WORKS brings us into God's grace so He can decide who to call as Sons. The bible says...to those who RECEIVE HIM to them gave he power to become the SONS of God.

Nothing you stated is in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/15


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Nicole
I tell you the following so you will understand what I teach to be the Truth.

Good works is doing what Jesus taught us to do in his gospels, and those commands the Holy Spirit puts into our minds and writes on our hearts.(Romans 2:13-15)

These works do not save us, they bring us into the favor of God (Grace)(John 14:21), and because we are found to be in his Grace, God decides who he will call the Sons of God. (Romans 9)

In those who are born of God, that Evil which lives in us, that evil which caused us to sin, dies (Romans 7:9-11). And because it has died, those born of God can not sin, and this is how we know if we have been born again. (1 John 3:9-10)
---David on 5/19/15


David, I think some see Fruits and Works as being different. But, they are the same. When we work, it shows by the fruit.
If I work on a field, caring for it daily, others will know because they will see the end results: produce/fruit.

Working on my behavior by the Grace of God is shown in my restraint in NOT doing bad.

Everyone on this website has been working on their praising and praying skills.
That's works turned into fruits.
That's why James states Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.

Virtue is working in process.
Wages of sin is death. But someone has to be able to pay that debt which Jesus did pay for it.

King David, was forgiven by God, but Nathan told him he and Israel will suffer due to the sin.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/18/15


Well David, let's take Luke 18. I read to the end of the chapter. The rich young ruler kept ALL the commandments but still fell short. Jesus said sell all you have and FOLLOW ME. So when we are crucified with Christ we have sold all that we have, being crucified to the world and the world to us. We are no longer part of this world system.
What about you David, have YOU sold all that you have?
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


I absolutely follow Matthew 18, and Paul's witness to Matthew 18.-kathr4453

Kathryn
In (Luke 10:25 & Luke 18:18) two different people ask Jesus what they must do to gain Eternal Life. How does your doctrine fit what Jesus told either of these men?
---David on 5/18/15


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If you look at most church doctrines today, not only are they not founded on the Gospels, but actually make the Gospels a lie and their false doctrines the Truth.
---David on 5/18/15

Brother, and I use that term loosely, you had better pray about your accusation.

If you think you believe in Jesus and then curse His church, perhaps you don't believe as well as you thought. It seems to me that "the gates of hell will not prevail" against His church, and He does not need your help to make it so.

Our job is to love, pure and simple. Love God and love your neighbor. Anything else is flesh and pride.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/18/15


Here is one David. Years ago I threw away my husbands favorite ripped torn and horrible jeans. He was really angry with me for a while, but did forgive me. So in doing that were my husbands sins forgiven? The problem is David, my husband, now X husband is an atheist who does not believe in God or Jesus Christ. Hummm, so are you saying people can go to heaven by forgiving others without believing In Jesus Christ?
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


Our wages of our sin is death. When we are forgiven we are given salvation. But if we refuse to forgive or follow our Lord then we are lost again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/18/15

Wrong Samuel. No one can be LOST AGAIN. it only shows one was never saved to begin with just as 1st John states VERY CLEARLY. Or is this just another part of scripture you reject?
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


... when they can not find that witness, they will open their eyes to the Truth.
---David on 5/18/15

Your right here. Thousands witnesses are either accepted or rejected.
It may be those that never post, silent that search/accept all that the witnesses point too.
Mar_4:11...Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Hos_2:23 I will sow her unto me in the earth, I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy, I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people, they shall say, Thou art my God.
Zec_10:9 I will sow them among the people: they shall remember me in far countries, they shall live...
---Trav on 5/18/15


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This is why I ask folks like Kathryn for a witness to their doctrine. Not to intimidate, but in the hope that when they can not find that witness, they will open their eyes to the Truth. And though they call themselves a follower of Christ, it is not Christ whom they are following.
---David on 5/18/15

So presumptuous of you David. I absolutely follow Matthew 18, and Paul's witness to Matthew 18. That we forgive BECAUSE we have been forgiven, not SO we can be forgiven. Please KNOW the difference, and PLEASE study to show yourself approved. Bearing false witness is a SIN, but I FORGIVE YOU due to your ignorance of truth.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


I also want to make clear David, that your SIN of bearing false witness here .....just because I forgave you doesn't necessarily mean GOD has forgiven you. So, what will you do here to be forgiven of this sin? Find someone to forgive? NO NO NO. You must confess your SIN to God, asking HIM for forgivness of bearing false witness. When doing so, He is faithful and just to forgive you your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness by HIS BLOOD. Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgivness of sin. Or is this part of scripture something YOU deny?
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


Your point we have to be forgiven or saved before we can forgive others is correct.

But then the person who refuses to forgive has his debts restored and is sent to pay for them all.

Our wages of our sin is death. When we are forgiven we are given salvation. But if we refuse to forgive or follow our Lord then we are lost again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/18/15


The 4 Gospels are invisible to many. -Nicole_Lacey

Nicole
And this is why we have so many false teachings in the church today. The gospels are the measure of truth, and the churches are not using this measure.

If you look at most church doctrines today, not only are they not founded on the Gospels, but actually make the Gospels a lie and their false doctrines the Truth.

This is why I ask folks like Kathryn for a witness to their doctrine. Not to intimidate, but in the hope that when they can not find that witness, they will open their eyes to the Truth. And though they call themselves a follower of Christ, it is not Christ whom they are following.
---David on 5/18/15


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Matthew 18: 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Here in Matther 18, right after Jesus explains 70x7 Jesus gives an example. The EXAMPLE here again shows the man who was forgiven his debt...HA! Then refused to forgive another. So AGAIN, we forgive BECAUSE we have been forgiven, not SO we can be forgiven.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

So here we see, Paul's teaching here compliments Jesus teaching on forgivness in Matthew 18.

We are forgiven our sin because Jesus PAID OUR SIN DEBT IN FULL. HE DIED FOR OUR SIN. Our sin cannot be forgiven apart from the finished works of Christ. No one can WORK THEIR WAY INTO HEAVEN.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/15


David, I don't know where an Apostle taught to forgive to be forgiven, but I know in the Gospel Jesus told us we must forgive in order to forgive.
I address this to you because someone isn't speaking to me.

The only prayer Jesus taught the Apostles
'Our Father'
In that prayer we must forgive if we want to be forgiven.

And Jesus corrected Peter in thinking there was limit on forgiving others.

Many people love to skip the Gospels to back up their faith.

As you said, Paul NEVER preached another SALVATION than the one Jesus proclaimed.

Many here quote Scriptures after John or the books before Matthew.
The 4 Gospels are invisible to many.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/17/15


David, I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Do you want me to post the whole of these books here, or are you able to read them yourself? Do you doubt these words are in 1st John? To be crucified with Christ and raised a new creature IS passing from death to life David. And the the LAW of the Spirit of the life of Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. We are justified by His Blood and SAVED BY HIS LIFE. The Mystery: No longer I but CHRIST
IN ME...Colossians 1:24-27. The Mystery is Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory. The Body of Christ are those who have Christ in them. Old things pass away, ALL THINGS BECOME NEW. Like I said, we forgive BECAUSE we have been forgiven, not SO we can be forgiven.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/15


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Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Here Paul says HATH FORGIVEN....FORGAVE. Both past tense, both showing we forgive BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN FORGIVEN. No where does any Apostle teach we forgive SO THAT we can be forgiven.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/15


David, you have asked for another witness with Paul, but you yourself keep posting only Paul.--kathr4453

Kathryn
You forgot,.... I started with the words of Jesus Christ (Matthew 6:15), on 5/10/15.

Your comments about your doctrine brought us into the letters of Paul, and that's because your doctrine has no foundation in the Gospels of Christ.

Read 1st 2nd and 3rd John. PASSING FROM DEATH TO LIFE. This IS the Gospel of Grace David. And John also tells us we can KNOW we have eternal life. ---kathr4453

Ok, print the clearly written scripture from these books which supports your doctrine, so we can all see them too.
---David on 5/17/15


David, you have asked for another witness with Paul, but you yourself keep posting only Paul. I'm confused. Or did you believe Corinthians was written by someone other than Paul?

Another witness to our eternal security is John. Read 1st 2nd and 3rd John. PASSING FROM DEATH TO LIFE. This IS the Gospel of Grace David. And John also tells us we can KNOW we have eternal life. I KNOW I do David.

Matthew is not about being BORN OF GOD. This is the MYSTERY David. Only those who have died with Christ and raised a NEW CREATURE are Born of God. Jesus says nothing about that in Matthew. Only the BODY of Christ is BORN of God. ONCE BORN OF GOD ALWAYS
BORN OF GOD. GOD NEVER ABORTS. We call that MURDER.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/15


(2 Corinthians 13:1)
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
---David on 5/16/15

David, also I'm not sure what you feel this verse means to you, but in reality, God's word is already established. Jesus Himself promised EVERLASTING LIFE. Do you not know what "everlasting" means? It means ETERNAL. As in never ending. All the apostles AND PROPHETS have more than established this fact. The RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW, was established when Abel sacrificed confessing he was a sinner, to Abraham, to Job and so on. Hebrews 11 will tell you all about RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW. Jesus died for our sin. My faith is in Jesus Christ, not my works.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/15


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2 Timothy 4:14-15

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also, for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Here is a good example. Where does Paul say...Oh I must forgive him so I can be forgiven? It doesn't. Nor did Paul take this opportunity to even go there. I wonder why? Paul is sayin the same thing you posted in 2 Thess David. That God will recompense evil to those who are evil towards us.
You went to great pains to twist 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 by omitting the verses directly before. OH but I posted scripture here explaining to YOU the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1:1-7.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/15


David, this is the Gospel Paul is also talking about in Thesselonians.

Romans 16:25-26---kathr4453


Kathryn
And once again, you come without a witness to Paul. Show me, what you claim Paul taught, from another disciple. Just one, that's all I'm asking for. Since you couldn't find one, doesn't that tell you something about your doctrine.

Don't you believe what Paul wrote in (2 Corinthians 13:1)
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

---David on 5/16/15


David, this is the Gospel Paul is also talking about in Thesselonians.

Romans 16:25-26

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The Gospel of GRACE is the obedience of FAITH, not works.
I can't wait to see the Lord. I have nothing to fear. His perfect Love has cast out any and all fear. Abraham rejoiced to see His day and so do I.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/15


(2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
"For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you, and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..

Kathryn
Notice in the above passage who it says will be punished with everlasting destruction, and why will they be punished.

Is it because they didn't obey the Gospel of Grace, of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
---David on 5/16/15


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David and Samuel, do you understand what it is to be a member of the Body of Christ? The relationship is not one of an earthly marriage, where one has some sort of free will to come and go as one pleases. Unfortunately you look to earthly Israel and the Old covenant for your answer, and not the New Covenant, or BETTER YET, the EVERLASTING COVENANT, based on BETTER PROMISES. So I suppose you don't understand the differences between these three covenants and have no understanding of which one our ETERNAL LIFE comes under. Your relationship,with God comes under one of these three. Each have different promises. Our faith is in HIS PROMISES. If your faith is in the wrong Covenant, I can understand why you believe you can lose your salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/15


David, I understand you do not believe that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast-kathr4453

Kathryn
Just not as you believe it, and the way I teach Paul, he does not undermine the Gospels of Christ or what the other disciples taught.

This is a claim, your doctrine can not make. If I am wrong, show me another witness in the Bible who teaches what you claim Paul taught.

And I will show you many places where Paul himself refutes your doctrine.
---David on 5/15/15


In my life, I try to forgive as soon as possible. And if at some time in the future I feel resentment, then I forgive again.

Forgiveness is like peeling an onion. When you begin peeling, perhaps there are some tears, but the papery outer surface is gone. But if there are blemishes in the next layer, you have to peel some more. So you peel and peel, and you shed some tears. Just so, we must continue to forgive until there are no more tears.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 5/14/15


Jesus said "Didn't I choose all 12 of you but one of you is a devil."

Free will doesn't stop just before we plan to reject Jesus.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/14/15


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Kathr I do believe we are saved by Grace through faith and not of works.

We believe being saved is like being married. We are in a relationship with GOD of love. If we quit loving GOD and others we are divorcing GOD.

We get this because we believe in free will. GOD does not force us to be saved.

On Christ the Solid rock I stand all other ground is sifting sand.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/14/15


Chuck Swindall got into a lot of trouble for reinstating an old doctrine. That those who do not accept Jesus as Lord and obey Him are not Christians.
John Wesley and Luther taught that those who love GOD will walk in love to Him and love others. Love leads to obedience. ---Samuelbb7 on 5/12/15


Samuel
Chuck Swindell really?
That's cool, a main street preacher is finally preaching truth. I have hoped for years to get Billy Graham to preach truth, but to many, the word of Billy is greater than the word of God.

Though I have disagreed with Chuck in the past, He's a great orator and I love to listen to his sermons.
Maybe I will write him this week end.

Love what I have read of John Wesley and Luther.
---David on 5/14/15


David, I understand you do not believe In eternal security, or that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. But I do. I know you must believe that no one knows if they are going to go to heaven or not until all one's works are weighed against the bad, and if our good deeds outweigh the bad, walla, your in. But I don't. I also know so many today hate Paul, and the Gospel according to the Mystery. But I don't.

Again, that verse says NOTHING about heaven. But if you want to believe it does, I can't stop you.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/15


Like I said David, this is KINGDOM LAW, not the Gospel of GRACE. Both are truths, but both have their place.-kathr4453

Kathryn
According to Paul in the verse below, which Gospel is the power of God unto salvation?
(Romans 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Why does Paul, sent as a minister to the gentiles, preach to them the Gospel of Christ, if this Gospel of Grace was greater than the Gospel of Christ?
(Romans 15:19)...so that from Jerusalem and round about into Illyricum, I have fully preached the Gospel of Christ.
---David on 5/13/15


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Samuel, no it doesn't. Grace does not also say we can earn our sLvation either. That verse does not say anything about eternal salvation, but relationship with God in our daily life. To ADD something to,this verse about not getting into heaven is not even in the verse. We forgive AS we have been forgiven. God is not an Indian giver. Our eternal forgiveness is solely based on the Blood of Jesus, as we know without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. The whole chapter, fasting etc, is talking about our relationship with the Lord. We forgive BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, not SO we can be forgiven. Please know the difference.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/15


So sad but true David.

Grace does not say we can live in sin.

Chuck Swindall got into a lot of trouble for reinstating an old doctrine. That those who do not accept Jesus as Lord and obey Him are not Christians.

John Wesley and Luther taught that those who love GOD will walk in love to Him and love others. Love leads to obedience.

Rom 13:8,9
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/12/15


Like I said David, this is KINGDOM LAW, not the Gospel of GRACE. Both are truths, but both have their place. If perhaps you could rightly divide the word of truth you could see this. Many today believe we are in KINGDOM NOW theology. If our forgiveness is dependent on forgiving others, there was no need for Jesus to die for our sin. And you are misleading folks in believing they will go to heaven because they forgive others.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/15


There is no prerequisite that we have to forgive others before we can be forgiven. --kathr4453

And as I said on 5/10, some folks kick the Gospels of Christ to the curb, seeing his Truth as a lie, and seeing their lies as the Truth. They see their teachings, the teaching given to them by men, as greater than the teachings of Christ.

And as you can see in the verse below, Kathryn in her comment above has given us a perfect example of this.

(Matthew 6:14-15)NKJV
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
---David on 5/12/15


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Our forgiveness through Jesus Christ is based on His finished work on the cross. There is no prerequisite that we have to forgive others before we can be forgiven. That would be forgiveness based on works, not faith. Nor can one lose their salvation if say a pervert molests and then murders their child. Sometimes it takes a great work in our heart to forgive such offenses. And that work can only be done, not by our own power, but His life in us, as we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.

Many here are quoting a verse of how it will be under Kingdom LAW, not Grace. Kingdom LAW, will be ruled with a rod of iron. Nowhere from Acts to Revelations is forgiveness of our sin said to be dependent on our having to forgive others first.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/15


Donna
Absolutely not, and I'll explain why. Jesus Christ was sent with a Gospel of Truth. In (Matthew 6:15) Jesus clearly taught God will not forgive those who won't forgive others.

Now with that said, this person can still take it or leave it, as many do the Lords Gospels. I can't remember the last time I was in a church, that out of ignorance, didn't call Jesus a liar in their teachings.
---David on 5/10/15


Cluny, I would never delight in God not forgiving them because they wont forgive me.

I'm asking because I miss them and want them to forgive me so we can be friends again. Its been 16 years that shes held a grudge against me and
i cry over it a lot.

I've sent messages asking for her forgiveness but she won't respond. that makes me sad.
---donna9393 on 5/9/15


Donna the principle laid out man is "if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. If you do not forgive [trespasses], neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive you [of yours]" Whether or not that will keep them out of "heaven", only the Father knows.
---joseph on 5/9/15


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By forgiving, "they" can be in Heaven's love, now.

Our Apostle Paul says, "Fight the good fight of faith," in 1 Timothy 6:12. So, yes we are soldiers of Jesus fighting. And Paul says we need "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6. And Jesus on the cross is our example of how to fight in love against evil >

Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do," in Luke 23:34. And after Jesus prayed out forgiveness, then was when one of those criminals hanging next to Jesus gave Himself to Jesus.

Your prayer of forgiveness in God's love can effect people with God's own love so they become lovingly forgiving, not only grudgingly, but cheerfully forgiving (c:
---Bill on 5/9/15


Maybe if you ask for forgiveness but not asking them to forget they might agree to forgive.
Maybe Jesus knows they have forgiven but not forgotten.

Jesus never said for us to forget a sin is required, even though He has forgotten our sins
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/8/15


There are some terrible stories from the ancient Orthodox writers about those who died refusing to forgive.

All we can do is hope that God will have at least as much mercy upon such people as we want Him to show to us.

But we're not supposed to anticipate His judgement, much less delight in what we think it should be.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/15


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