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God's Rules For Family

Ephesians (5 and 6) give God's rules for family life but what should follow if one or more of these things happen - a husband beats his wife, a wife insults her husband, a child disobeys parents or parents harm their children. How does one obey when another does not?

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 ---Rita_H on 6/20/15
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There comes a time for a divorce. Especially if it involves violence to one of the other.
---Lee on 5/19/16


Rod, yes, interesting.
A preliminary overview shows many similarities.
I have not gone over each of the 22 letters, but the differences appear to be very minimal, as in individual handwriting styles.
One opinion suggests the Gezer calendar could be a student assignment or memorization table.
I would tend to believe that Moses' writing of the Pentateuch would be the foundation for writing for many centuries, so it would be along the script type of these 2 artifacts in which Moses would have wrote.
Goat skins, from my understanding were the common writing receptor of the day.
Papyrus would seem rather unlikely given the area.
Though clay tablets, as were these artifacts, cannot be ruled out.
---micha9344 on 7/10/15


micha, if you are interested, and/or others, you can do a web search on "Lachish" letters, and "Gezer calendar." They show Ancient Hebrew and Paleo-Hebrew writing (terminology sometimes changes).

As the research will show, Lachish letters were written probably during the Babylonian conquest (about 586 BC, fascinating story of the some of the letters), and the Gezer Calendar was written around the 10th century BC (King Solomon's time or shortly afterward).

Then a question remains, what script was used, being 300-500 years before Solomon, and what did they write on?

I am not challenging anything, just some things to think about.
---Rod4Him on 7/10/15


Rod,
There was much I saw in my research, and much more to be seen and weighed. Terminology is key, especially when different sources use ancient, classical, archaic, proto-, and standard in a variety of ways.
I tried to narrow the sources' meaning by the dates assigned.
I am confident in my conclusion, but in no way will cling to it if such a time presents itself.
Pro 27:17 Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another. NASB
Pro 9:9 Give [instruction] to a wise [man], and he will be yet wiser: teach a just [man], and he will increase in learning.
-Many on here have taught well.
-Blessings to you as well.
---micha9344 on 7/8/15


micha, thanks for your graciousness. Archaeology and Hebrew is an interest of study for me...blessings
---Rod4Him on 7/8/15




/How would you describe the characters/letters of Ancient Hebrew, and is it the same as Moses' Hebrew?\-Rod4Him on 7/6/15
First, thank you for your insightful questions. they help me dig deeper into what I really believe.
It would seem, from different sources, that Moses wrote in Archaic Biblical Hebrew, as opposed to Standard.
The line seems to be drawn around the 9th c, but there is a lot of gray area between the 9th and the 6th.
So, upon further research, I will hold to my original conclusion: Moses wrote in the same script that those up to the exile used, dialects not withstanding.
Hebrew prior to Moses:
Gen 42:23 And they knew not that Joseph understood them, for he spake unto them by an interpreter.
---micha9344 on 7/7/15


//Simple answer: Classical (Ancient) Hebrew.//

Classical and Ancient Hebrew are described by some as two different but related things (Just trying to define our terms). How would you describe the characters/letters of Ancient Hebrew, and is it the same as Moses' Hebrew?
---Rod4Him on 7/6/15


/However, assuming that is true, what "script" did Moses use to express the Hebrew "language."\-Rod4Him on 7/6/15
Simple answer: Classical(Ancient) Hebrew.
Modern Hebrew(Israeli) is a hybrid of Aramaic and Classical Hebrew.
Dialects, which have other influences, include Yiddish and Oriental Hebrew.
If one would take the root names, one would see the distinction of the ancient near-east languages.
Semetic-of Shem
Hebrew - of Eber
Pheonician - of Put
Egyptian - of Mizraim
Canaanite - of Canaan
Aramaic - of Aram
Abraham was a(n) Hebrew.
Eber was still alive when Abraham died. It was through Peleg that Hebrew was established and continued through Moses and David on into the exile.
---micha9344 on 7/6/15


//It seems by scripture that, at least up until Nehemiah, Israel spoke what Moses wrote.//

However, assuming that is true, what "script" did Moses use to express the Hebrew "language."
---Rod4Him on 7/6/15


\\Just as Hebrew hasn't changed from Aramaic, neither has English changed from Greek.\\

But Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic, and Eblan are all Semitic languages that are much more closely related than are English and Greek.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/15




Cluny, Yes, I was mistaken here. English, being a Germanic language has Greek, Latin, and many other influences.
This only solidifies my point.
Just as Hebrew hasn't changed from Aramaic, neither has English changed from Greek.
I do, also, recognize the Aramaic influence in modern Hebrew that could have easily started in the Exile.
Scripture was written both during and after the exille in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
It seems by scripture that, at least up until Nehemiah, Israel spoke what Moses wrote.
---micha9344 on 6/30/15


\\English is not Greek, though it is derived from Greek, but also, Latin, Celtic, and a host of other languages.\\

English is NOT derived from Greek, though it has many borrowings from it (especially in theology and the sciences) and both are Indo-European languages.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/15


Aramaic is not Hebrew, nor was it derived from Hebrew.
English is not Greek, though it is derived from Greek, but also, Latin, Celtic, and a host of other languages.
King David was well before the exile, as was Moses.
The exilic influence does not apply to David's time.
Certain books of the Bible were written in Aramaic, but that doesn't influence Moses' writings, nor the writings of any before the exile, including David.
People of the below passages read what Moses wrote, even 1K years later.
The language persisted.
And I did mention that in Nehemiah, they explained the passages, which could be considered translational, but not from Moses to David.
Either Moses wrote in Hebrew or everyone reading knew the language.
---micha9344 on 6/30/15


//I don't think there were any significant changes to Hebrew whatsoever.//

If you do a bit of research, you'll find out that Hebrew has changed. What may be referred to as Hebrew writing at the time of King David changed after the exile to Aramaic style of letters. There are references about this issue in Ezra and Nehemiah, books about the return to the Land.

To say Hebrew hasn't changed is like saying English hasn't changed from Greek.

Since you are wrong here, one has to wonder where else you are wrong in the things you think and write...just saying...it is the way it is.

//So Moses wrote what Israel spoke, Hebrew.//

You make very confident assertions that make it challenging to respond graciously...sorry.
---Rod4Him on 6/30/15


Mt 19:26 . . . but with God all things are possible.

Moses did not have to learn Hebrew. God could easily put His Spirit into Moses and cause him to write in any language without ever having first learned it.
---aservant on 6/29/15


c1450BC Exo 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD...
c1410BC Jos 8:34 ...he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
c610BC 2Ki 22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
c425BC Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.
-The understanding given in Nehemiah could have been translational, relational, or both.
-So Moses wrote what Israel spoke, Hebrew.
-I don't think there were any significant changes to Hebrew whatsoever.
---micha9344 on 6/29/15


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Moses could have learned how to write in Hebrew during his lifetime. Specially during 40 years in the desert wanderings.

He was after all a educated man to start with.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/29/15


//I saw that on a historical program myself. Oddly enough, it was written up to down rather than right to left.//

I remember hearing of this also, but didn't know the source. I looked it up online, and it appears to be an ancient Phoenician Script, which Hebrew came from, that no one knows what it says or when it was written. I am still curious when that script in Egypt would have been written and what it says...anyone know?

So again, what Script would Moses have written? What script would have been used during his time period?

Hebrew from King David's time was different from post exile time....
---Rod4Him on 6/29/15


Good point, Cluny.
I did remember about his mother, but didn't have space.
I think his mother would have instill in him to circumcise any boy of his to remember his people before learning to read and write.

Besides, we don't how long she nursed him. 3 to 5 years at most. One doesn't start to write until 5.

Speaking to him in ancient Hebrew would be a mistake because the toddler would have mixed the Hebrew language and revealed his mother's attempt to teach him.

I know this because my first language is Spanish. I kept mixing English with Spanish. I remembered adults yelling at me to stick to one language.
I didn't understand them because I thought I was speaking ONE language.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/28/15


Jesus verifies Moses is the author of the Pentateuch.

Matt 19:7-8 . . .why did Moses say . . . they asked. Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted divorce...
Matt 22:24 . . .Moses said, 'If a man dies without children . . .
Mk 7:10 . . . Moses gave you this law from God . . .
Mk 12:24 . . . in the writings of Moses. . .
Lk 24:44 . . . I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses . . .
Jn 5:46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me . . .
Jn 7:23 . . . do it, so as not to break the law of Moses . . .
---aservant on 6/28/15


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\\Why would Moses know ancient Hebrew if he was brought up as a Egyptian?

Would you teach a slave's language to a prince?\\

Don't forget that Moses was nursed by Yochabel, his biological mother.

And he might have had to speak slave language to his slaves.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/15


Why would Moses know ancient Hebrew if he was brought up as a Egyptian?

Would you teach a slave's language to a prince?

Besides he didn't given circumcises his own son.
His non-Hebrew wife Zipporah had to do it to spare Moses from being killed by God. Exodus 4:24-26
But, he is going to know how to write ancient Hebrew?

I don't think so. If he can't do the easy requirement of being a Hebrew (circumcising his son) how is he going to know the hard parts? (Reading and writing)
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/27/15


\\//A Hebrew slave in Egypt wrote on the wall of a mine.//

Do you have support for that, where is it, and what type of Hebrew?\\

I saw that on a historical program myself. Oddly enough, it was written up to down rather than right to left.

And what part of "ancient Hebrew" did you not understand?

Hebrew, believe it or not, has had many forms, just like English.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/15


//A Hebrew slave in Egypt wrote on the wall of a mine.//

Do you have support for that, where is it, and what type of Hebrew?

//Neither of these issues embrue the Torah's inspiration or authority.//

I agree.

Back to the blog question.
There's a vast difference between wife-beating and husband-insulting.

Never should one submit to physical abuse. Insult abuse is probably subjective to what it is and how much to endure till one leaves that situation. People only have two cheeks..
---Rod4Him on 6/27/15


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Moses wrote in ancient Hebrew.

A Hebrew slave in Egypt wrote on the wall of a mine. Asking GOD to save him. This proved that Moses could have wrote in Hebrew since it is from before the Exodus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/26/15


"Scourged" in Lev 19:20 is the Hebrew base word "biqqoreth", root "bakar."
This word has the connotation of an investigation resulting in compensation or punishment.
"Showt" is also Hebrew for "scourge" or "whip" and has the connotation of a different kind of pronounced judgment.
We all know words have different meanings depending on context.
Since the context didn't show, the original language does.
Moses wrote the first five books of the Christian Bible, the Jewish Tanakh, which is the Pentateuch or Torah.
Ex 17:14, 24:4, 34:27
Num 33:2, Deu 31:9 ...
Mar 12:9->Deu 25:5
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
---micha9344 on 6/26/15


\\In addition where does it say Moses wrote the Torah? When did he write it and in what ancient script?\\

You've asked good questions, Rod4Him.

It is a long standing tradition that the Torah is at least principally of Mosaic authorship, though there are passages such his his obituary that were added under God's providence by another person.

Yes, there was a change in Hebrew script about the time of the Exile. Many say that Baruch, Jeremiah's secretary, is responsible for this redaction, and it makes sense to me.

Neither of these issues embrue the Torah's inspiration or authority.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/15


//This book was written by Moses, as he received it from the Lord.//

I didn't know that Moses wrote the KJV. In addition where does it say Moses wrote the Torah? When did he write it and in what ancient script?
---Rod4Him on 6/25/15


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//..she shall be scourged..

That is a good reason not to only read the KJV.

A better word for "scourged" is an "investigation."
---Rod4Him on 6/24/15


This book was written by Moses, as he received it from the Lord.

Modern translators love to alter the words of the Lord.
---aservant on 6/25/15


//..she shall be scourged..

That is a good reason not to only read the KJV.

A better word for "scourged" is an "investigation."
---Rod4Him on 6/24/15


Lev 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her, she shall be scourged, they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

This is the only Scripture that I am aware of where God has sanctioned a wife (i.e., concubine) to be beaten. This punishment comes at the hands of elders, not her husband.
---aservant on 6/24/15


Micha - "Jail for abuser, Counseling for both unto repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation."

Some will not survive that scenario. Repentance can be faked. I'm guessing you've never seen a badly abused woman.
---Rita_H on 6/24/15


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"a husband beats his wife"-Jail for abuser, Counseling for both unto repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation.
"a wife insults her husband"-recognition of the offence-repentance and forgiveness unto reconciliation-counseling if necessary.
"a child disobeys parents"-immediate consequences, discipline, training, nuture, and admonition.
"parents harm their children"-temporary removal of children until counseling can provide repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation.
"How does one obey when another does not?"-Who is the master to whom you are obedient? If Christ, then follow him, and let the spouse stand or fall by their master.
Repent and forgive --in a word: Love
---micha9344 on 6/24/15


Years ago I knew an elderly couple that the woman had been abused her whole marriage. I told her to leave and she said he just brings her back and abuses her more. He kicked her on the bottom of her legs where she could wear pants to cover the bruises up. Only one time she fought back by hitting him on the head with an iron skillet. Someone turned him in and she was put in a Nursing Home. The submit verse has caused misery and heartache because it has been wrongly used to make women submit to abuse. Before that verse it says Submit to one another but men tend to ignore that. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 6/24/15


Rod4Him "Anybody that suggests that a wife should submit to being beat is sick." I agree 100%. Sadly it is not just men who think that women should stay in such circumstances. I've heard pastors wives and elders wives say this also. I'm guessing that they are not being beating though so cannot even begin to imagine what that must feel like and what it must do to children who witness it.
---Rita_H on 6/24/15


Anybody that suggests that a wife should submit to being beat is sick.

Bill Gothard is one that taught this. He went so far as to say Sarah submitted to Abram to become Pharoah's wife, so present day wife's should submit...that is sick.

Peter also says, "When He was insulted, he didn't retaliate with insults, when he suffered, he didn't threaten, but handed them over to him who judges justly."

An abused person should get out of the situation, especially if it is physical.
---Rod4Him on 6/24/15


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How does one obey when another does not?
---Rita_H on 6/20/15


You will standing alone when Jesus Judges you. 1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

He is our example. We are called to suffer in humility. He obeyed when no others would obey. He loved us when no others would love Him. It was those He created, those in church leadership who called for His death.
---aservant on 6/23/15


How about a man not letting his wife near him in bed because he doesn't like to be touched.
---Mary on 6/23/15


1Co 7:4 . . . likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

God requires this of husbands. Not providing as God requires give his wife Biblical grounds for divorce.

God called disrespecting His covenant, "fornication" - Is 23:17, Eze 16:26. This is the same sense in which "fornication" is used in Mt 5:32. Divorce is appropriate where God is disobeyed for a prolonged period, that does not include sexual sin. Ex 21:10 is an example where divorce could apply because God's command are being disobeyed.
---aservant on 6/23/15


I've been physically and emotionally abused. How about watching my husband go out the door, knowing he insists on seeing his girlfriend? How about a man not letting his wife near him in bed because he doesn't like to be touched. Sorry, but I and many others do know what emotional abuse is.
---Mary on 6/23/15


As Christians, we are to obey God's commands regardless of whether anyone else is obeying him or not. These commands are not contingent on the other parties doing their part. Of course, if you are in immediate danger of physical bodily harm then you should seek help. But if you're looking to be excused from your responsibilities because your spouse is "mean" or disrespectful or doesn't love you like you think they ought to, then you are sadly mistaken. Too many people cite "emotional abuse" as an excuse to neglect their marital responsibilities. But of course, "abuse" is one of the most over-used words today. Many people who claim "abuse" have no idea what abuse really looks like.
---Jed on 6/22/15


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Yes, and the greatest command is love, but who does that? I would love God more if I had stayed far from my wife. I love the kids, but we paid a huge price to be together. I think one is closer to God to separate or divorce the bad egg.
---aaron on 6/22/15


There may be laws which require a pastor to report abuse.

And prevention is better > become able to make sure with God about who you marry, so you don't marry an abuser. And have a pastor who can tell the difference between an abuser and someone you belong with.

Yes, "of course", there are spouses who got married to wrong people while they were sinners. But I think I have seen how some number of people claim to be Christians but they do not make sure with God about who they need to marry.

"The LORD will guide you continually," we have in Isaiah 58:11.
---Bill on 6/21/15


Oddly Rita, I have known the opposite. I knew women told by their Pastors they can not report abuse to police but only to them.

Priests have to tell the abused party to separate and the Catholic Church even helps support them.

I think you believe the person was told they can not divorce the husband but only separate.
Because they are not allow to remarry as long as the other separated person is alive,so the woman chooses to stay hoping the husband will change.
But, they were warned.
This is the reason in the Catholic Church you must have 6 months to a year of Marriage preparation after engagement.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/21/15


Hi Rita:

Good questions

1. We must obey Jesus no matter the cost see Matthew 16:24-25.

2. A Wife's Separation from an Abusive Husband for a time is not disobedience.

3. A Husband's Separation from an Insulting Wife for a time is not disobedience.

4. The bible says children will disobey and they must be discipline see Proverbs 13:24, 23:13-15, and 22:6 and 15.

5. Parents who abuse their children come under the Judgment of God and must be dealt with severely for they have forfeited their role see Ephesians 6:4 and Matthew 18:2-6, 22:37-40.
---john9346 on 6/21/15


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Sorry Bill but your comment does not work on men with the intention of using 'Godly submission' as another means to use force and violence. They know that these wives won't fight back or leave once told by a priest to stay. Please read my previous comment about the one who was killed by staying and trying to obey.

Women need to escape such men and then the men should be locked up. Staying and being even more submissive and obedient often just hastens their fate. Children are also involved in some of these cases.
---Rita_H on 6/21/15


example

You can read 1 Peter 3:1-4 about how wives can win a disobedient husband.
---Bill on 6/20/15


I've known of cases where women have been told, by a priest, that they MUST stay with an abusive husband. One particular one who obeyed that stayed until he killed her. Within families, the abused person is often made to feel that it is their own fault.

Every member of a family would love and respect others if ALL members followed God's rules for the family but when one changes the rules and feels that they have more authority over another human being than they actually should have families can easily fall apart. Sometimes removing oneself from that home is the only safe answer.
---Rita_H on 6/21/15


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