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What Will Ministers Do

Now that SCOTUS has ruled in favor of marriages that are not Biblical, will you that are ministers perform these kinds of marriages?

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 ---KarenD on 6/26/15
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Strongaxe, Marriage was BEFORE civil. People were getting married BEFORE GOVERNMENT were even formed.

You know that, so why deny it?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/6/15


Strongaxe, in all cases, of which I have heard, they have been about the design to be put on the cake NOT about the people placing the order.

Bakers (and other businesses) will be serving people of many types all the time. These people will be buying what is on offer but in these extreme cases some 'would be customers' have set up a business knowing it will refuse their order. It is all a deliberate plan to push their own agenda and to discredit Christians. They haven't a clue that they are the ones who will be discredited when this life is over. God will honour Christian businesses who stand up to these trials.
---Rita_H on 7/6/15


mischa3944:

You asked: Is there a difference to refusing to make a same-gender wedding cake (Oregon bakery) and refusing to make a Confederate flag cake (WalMart)?

It depends on whether the refusal is for the text on the cake (which Walmart or the baker have the right to refuse - e.g. they could refuse to print obscenities, or Nazi flags, etc. too), or if it's refusing to serve the customer because of who or what he is (which they do NOT have the right to do).
---StrongAxe on 7/6/15


//He had to WORK for her.//

Actually, he didn't "have" to. He "chose" to...why? because he...
---Rod4Him on 7/6/15


Is there a difference to refusing to make a same-gender wedding cake (Oregon bakery) and refusing to make a Confederate flag cake (WalMart)?
---micha9344 on 7/5/15




Rod2Him:

You said: However, as I recall Jacob loved Rachel and worked very hard for her.

Yes, exactly. He had to WORK for her. He made an arrangement with her father. It was an arranged marriage (even though his motivation for it was love).
---StrongAxe on 7/5/15


//Suffice it to say that marrying for love is a relatively new idea.//

...interesting, yes arranged marriages in ancient times were quite the norm and in the Middle East...

However, as I recall Jacob loved Rachel and worked very hard for her.
---Rod4Him on 7/5/15


I'm just glad I don't own a bakery, or work in one...
---learner2 on 7/4/15


Rita_H:

This is precisely the point! It is hypocritical for Christian bakers of conscience to pick and choose which sins of their customers they choose to judge or not judge. They should either pretend to be God Almighty and judge them all equally, or not judge any of them.


Nicole_Lacey:

Saying "Be nice to others" doesn't suddenly make niceness a religious function, just a good one.

Marriage was a matter of civil contracts LONG before religions started getting involved in it.

The same Moses that said "don't kill" (which is actually "don't murder" in Hebrew) commanded capital punishment. Nowhere does the NT rescind capital punishment.
---StrongAxe on 7/4/15


\\Nice try Strongaxe, but remember getting married was a religious function WAY BEFORE the Government started issuing Marriage license.\\

Marriage and wedding ceremonies, with their religious and secular ramificatiohs, have a long, complex history before modern times.

This story can't be adequately discussed in a 125 word blog, as volumes have been written on it.

Suffice it to say that marrying for love is a relatively new idea.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/4/15




"Will they bake cakes for remarried divorcees, though Jesus called such unions adultery?"

It is highly unlikely that a baker will ask a hetersexual couple "Are you marrying for the first time or are you divorcees?"
---Rita_H on 7/4/15


Matthew 25:35 Remember they was asking Jesus when did I feed you. Jesus answered when they FED STRANGERS it was the same to Him.

Nice try Strongaxe, but remember getting married was a religious function WAY BEFORE the Government started issuing Marriage license.

What about killing people? It is one of 10 Commandments given by GOD to Moses. Capital punishment was in the OT.

Guess what? Our Government does the same thing. DEAD CHAIR, HANGING OR GUN FIRE.

By your logic they can't because Jewish and Christians were doing the same things.

Learner, you know better than me that your native Country is a Socialist Nation.
Some say America isn't Christian either - Obama
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/15


\\The bakers said they sell to same gender couples all the time, they only refuse to bake same gender wedding cakes because it defies their religious beliefs.\\

Will they bake cakes for remarried divorcees, though Jesus called such unions adultery?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/4/15


Nicole_Lacey:

You said: the QUESTION was to name ANY nation that feeds another nation's citizens more than America (NATION not Christian majority as it's own citizens)

Please answer that question.
Because I am disclaiming your statement.
We are debating YOUR statement because we both know feeding the poor ISN'T a secular function.


If, in fact, feeding the poor were a religious function, the first amendment to the constitution would forbid the government from doing it, as it is forbidden to establish religion.

Many religions command certain things (like charity) and forbid others (like murder), but that doesn't make those things religious things, because they are practiced even by non-religious people.
---StrongAxe on 7/4/15


Nicole, I am Swedish and I have been to Sweden and I know that most people there do not believe in God at all. Google which countries give the most foreign aid and you will find that it confirms what I wrote before. Happy Independence Day to you also!
---learner2 on 7/4/15


I don't think that there will be even ONE country in the whole world where the majority of the population are Christians - unless the definition of 'a Christian' just means 'someone who goes to Church.

The majority of church attendees attend church because of their upbringing and tradition rather than any sincere personal belief in Christ as their Saviour, Redeemer and Lord.
---Rita_H on 7/4/15


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Thanks Learner, but you are wrong. Both Countries have Christians as the Majority citizens.
Plus, they are taxed so high due to being a Socialist Government.
It is hard to see how you CAN claim they give more on average than American citizens.
Their Governments, slight maybe, but not them. Remember they are having trouble with Muslims due to their Christian beliefs of trusting everyone.

Please give your sources because I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

Again, I what a Country that isn't Christian.
A Communism Country is a Secular Country.
Or a Majority Muslims.

Even Communism Countries give more than Muslims, BUT not the Great UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/3/15


Norway and Sweden each give well over five times as much per capita in foreign aid as the USA gives. And they are both pretty much atheist countries.
---learner2 on 7/3/15


Strongaxe, the QUESTION was to name ANY nation that feeds another nation's citizens more than America (NATION not Christian majority as it's own citizens)

Please answer that question.
Because I am disclaiming your statement.
We are debating YOUR statement because we both know feeding the poor ISN'T a secular function.

Feeding ones own citizens doesn't count. Remember Jesus even said that: "Even sinners do that (give bread to their own sons)

Please stay on point. YOUR POINT.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/3/15


Nicole_Lacey:

No, feeding the poor loving your neighbor (which we Christians are required to do), but Buddhists, Jews, and even some Atheists do it.

Samaritans were hated apostate Jews of the northern kingdom 2000 years ago. Yet Jesus singled one out as the epitome of compassion, which has so profoundly influenced our culture that "samaritan" now means "very good person" rather than "reviled heretic".

In Matthew 25, Jesus calls people to their reward for compassion - even though they didn't know they deserved it, i.e. non-Christians who nevertheless were his disciples because they did what he said.
---StrongAxe on 7/2/15


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Feeding the poor is NOT a secular function, Strongaxe.

The reason America HELPS everyone is because we are a CHRISTIAN NATION.

Tell me a Secular majority Nations that takes care of another Nation's poor citizens?
Heck, tell me a non Christian religion that take care of another Nation's poor citizens?

PLEASE ANSWER.

You can't because Jesus told us to feed the poor so they will KNOW YOU ARE MY DISCIPLE.

By your logic, wouldn't people mistaken them for acting normal? Since feeding the poor is so Secular why would Jesus take claim to such a gesture?

That's like Jesus telling us to get married so they will know you are My disciple.
No, because married IS SECULAR. EVERY CULTURE HAS MARRIAGE.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/2/15


Nicole_Lacey:

I said: Religious organizations have always been allowed to discriminate against those with other beliefs in religious matters

You said: There are Religious orders NOT receiving any Federal grants or monies and taking care of the poor for FREE!

1) This does not alter the fact that churches ARE permitted to have religious tests for religious functions (e.g. for offices like pastor, etc. but not janitors)

2) Feeding the poor is a secular charity function, not a religious one. That Jesus commanded us to do it doesn't change this.


Jed:

Google: hardware "no gays allowed" for story on today's USA Today and Huffington Post about a hardware store owner in Tennessee.
---StrongAxe on 7/2/15



Jed, where does the Bible say that a Christian has a right to refuse to sell a screwdriver to someone who may have serious temptations or whose private intimate behavior might be sinful?

I noticed this same hardware dealer will NOT refuse service to remarried divorcees living in liasons Jesus condemned as adultery.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 7/2/15


I have never heard of this happening. Can you cite your source? I was talking about bakers, who didn't refuse service to anyone, they simply refused to bake a specific type of cake. The bakers said they sell to same gender couples all the time, they only refuse to bake same gender wedding cakes because it defies their religious beliefs.
---Jed on 7/2/15


Jed:

I never said that. When I state facts, people often infer from this my opinions on those facts. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't. Saying "the sky is blue" doesn't necessarily imply "I like blue skies".

Some functions (like pastoring) are inherently religious, thus protected under the First Amendment, while others (like baking a cake) are inherently NOT religious, so not protected.

Free speech is ALSO protected, so a baker can write what he wants on a cake. What he CAN'T do is have a public business that provides service to some people and not others. E.g. you could sue Kinko's if they would refuse to print religious texts.
---StrongAxe on 7/2/15


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Jed, where does the Bible say that a Christian has a right to refuse to sell a screwdriver to someone who may have serious temptations or whose private intimate behavior might be sinful?

I noticed this same hardware dealer will NOT refuse service to remarried divorcees living in liasons Jesus condemned as adultery.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/2/15


Religious organizations have always been allowed to discriminate against those with other beliefs in religious matters,---StrongAxe

NO SIR!

There are Religious orders NOT receiving any Federal grants or monies and taking care of the poor for FREE! They hired gays, Muslims and Atheists with the BEST health care insurance.
Paid well, but informed not birth controls due to their beliefs. Because of the jobs/monies they could pay the $9 a month at Target or Wal-Mart for birth controls if they wish. They didn't ask any questions.
Dominicans Sisters of Hawthorne (Free Services) and The Little Sisters of the Poor

Go to a Muslims Bakery and see if they are willing to bake a cake.
Done and TOLD NO!
Where's your anger?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/2/15


StrongAxe, that's very disappointing that you think individuals shouldn't enjoy the same religious freedoms that churches hav, which are garanteed in the constitution. Apparently you think the religious freedoms in the first ammendment only apply to religious organizations and not individual citizens?
---Jed on 7/1/15


aservant:

You said: True, He does hate it. Mal 2:16 But, when it was unavoidable, He divorced Israel. Is God prevented from getting remarried to a more worthy wife?

No, because Jesus made one exception to his no-divorce teaching: "except for fornication", and this is exactly why God divorced Israel, for whoring after foreign gods.
---StrongAxe on 7/1/15


The point I was making is this. God was the innocent Spouse in His divorce. The innocent spouse in human divorce can get remarried. God is our example.
---aservant on 7/1/15


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Jed:

This is not the same. Objecters say marriage is a religious matter (e.g. among Catholics, a sacrament). Religious organizations have always been allowed to discriminate against those with other beliefs in religious matters, e.g. churches are not required to hire atheist pastors.

On the other hand, baking a cake is a totally secular and not religious function, so secular anti-discrimination laws apply. If you think it has both functions, you're welcome to have a cake baked in a bakery, but have the icing done in a church, and nobody can complain about what you write, and no church would be required to write what it doesn't like.
---StrongAxe on 7/1/15


Did your father and brother accept divorce after re-marriage, and did they re-marry divorcees?
---StrongAxe on 6/30/15

My father and brother do not marry people they do not know. They both do not marry people who are of other faiths (JW, LDS, etc.). My brother does not marry anyone divorced. He is a devout Baptist. I am uncertain if my father has the same restriction against marrying someone divorced.

The arguments you make for same-sex marriage are sound. I see this issue (to Christians) being handled the same way as abortion. We have a distain for the practice and will continue to fight against it.

I personally have more disgust for the Stars and Bars flying anywhere.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/1/15


---StrongAxe on 6/30/15

FYI

They are spiritual prostitutes, committing adultery against me by sacrificing to their gods. - Exodus 34:15

Their love of idols was adultery in the LORD's sight. - Psalms 106:39

You have committed adultery on the mountaintops by worshiping idols there, and so you have been unfaithful to me. - Isaiah 57:7

This is adultery, for you are loving these idols instead of loving me. You have climbed right into bed with these detestable gods. - Isaiah 57:8

Israel . . . thought nothing of committing adultery by worshiping idols made of wood and stone. So now the land has been greatly defiled. - Jeremiah 3:9
---aservant on 7/1/15


Jed said, " Cluny, tell that to the cake makers. I'm sure they will find your confidence in our religious freedoms very reassuring."

Hey Jed, if a baker doesn't want my business (let's say he is a Muslim) because I am a Christian, then I will simply go to the Jewish baker down the street. He will take my money, and won't cavil about my religious beliefs.

I used to be a jeweler, and I would (and sometimes did) sell jewelry to the Mafia--their money is just as green.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/1/15


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Cluny, tell that to the cake makers. I'm sure they will find your confidence in our religious freedoms very reassuring.
---Jed on 7/1/15


aservant:

You said: True, He does hate it. Mal 2:16 But, when it was unavoidable, He divorced Israel. Is God prevented from getting remarried to a more worthy wife?

No, because Jesus made one exception to his no-divorce teaching: "except for fornication", and this is exactly why God divorced Israel, for whoring after foreign gods.
---StrongAxe on 7/1/15


Local news had conservative Christian schools playing Chicken Little over the SCOTUS decision, afraid they'll lose tax-exempt status (and probably some tax support) for teaching against it.

May I point out that many Churches and associated schools teach against abortion (alas, the law of the land), and NONE of them have been affected?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/15


Besides, God hates divorce.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/30/15


True, He does hate it. Mal 2:16 But, when it was unavoidable, He divorced Israel. Is God prevented from getting remarried to a more worthy wife?

Just so you know, we saved Gentiles are His new wife. We are called the Bride.

Is 50:1 (CEV) The LORD says, "Children, I didn't divorce your mother or sell you to pay debts, I divorced her and sold you because of your sins.

Jer 3:8 (JUB) And I saw when for all the causes by which rebellious Israel committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorce . . .
---aservant on 7/1/15


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. . . Neither party can marry again. Jesus did not say that the innocent party can remarry.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/30/15


God blesses and favors obedience. He does not punish obedience. He hardley punishes the disobedience of repentant, Spirit inhabited Christians, because of Jesus' Bloodshed. He is not going to relegate the innocent to lifelong suffering when they were obedient and faithful in the marriage, and fought to stay married. The hard, disobedient heart of the guilty spouse is worthy of lifelong suffering (lacking intimate companionship), not the innocent.

All the LAW hangs on Love. Mt 22:40 Punishing innocence is not God's Love.
---aservant on 6/30/15


Jed:

You said: But Jesus said if you separate from your wife without giving her a divorce, except for fornication, then you have caused her to commit adultery.

This is nonsense. Adultery is if she is with another man. If a man and wife separate, and she is NOT with another man, she cannot be committing adultery. It's only adultery if she is with another man AND NOT YET DIVORCED. The "But" here clearly distinguishes between Moses's rule (i.e. a man can divorce his wife, and then she is free to marry) from Jesus's (that she is not free to do so, because the divorce is not really "legitimate").
---StrongAxe on 6/30/15


StrongAxe, When Jesus said "BUT" he was talking about legit reasons for separating. He said "It is said whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you that whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery."

This statement makes sense ONLY if put away means separated, not divorced. Previously, a man could temporarily separate from his wife without a divorce for various reasons, even if he just didn't like her. But Jesus said if you separate from your wife without giving her a divorce, except for fornication, then you have caused her to commit adultery.
---Jed on 6/30/15


aservant said, "God punishes the guilty, not the innocent. The innocent party in a divorce who obeys Jesus and seeks to continue the marriage, but the guilty party does not care to reconcile or stay within a functional Christian marriage, that marriage cannot be restored. The innocent party cannot be guilty of adultery, or guilty of causing the old or the new wife to commit adultery - Mt 5:32."

Close but no cigar. Neither party can marry again. Jesus did not say that the innocent party can remarry.

Besides, God hates divorce.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 6/30/15


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Mark_Eaton:

Friday's ruling lessens restrictions on who can be married, so it is not imposing any new burdens on people of faith (any faith). Did your father and brother accept divorce after re-marriage, and did they re-marry divorcees? Or were they willing to marry people of other faiths the Bible condemns (e.g. polytheists such as Hindus)? If not, why didn't they turn in their credentials years ago, because (theologically and legally speaking), the three issues are similar - the state allowing a kind of marriage that ministers did not themselves approve of.

First century Christians married, despite the fact that Rome permitted marriage to polythestic heathen, and concubinage (lesser marriage involving non-citizens), etc.
---StrongAxe on 6/30/15


So your father and brother received their ordination as Christian ministers from the State?
---Cluny on 6/29/15

No, but their license to marry people comes from the state. And if the state makes restrictions on who can be married, then only those who agree with the state should participate. Until now, my father and brother agreed with the state.

I do not support the decision of my father and brother but I understand it. And, I do not support same-sex marriage but I understand from friends why it is so important to them.

But whatever the state decides to do, I can still serve and worship my Lord and Savior openly and freely. If the state infringes on those rights, then I must take a stand against the state.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/30/15


Jed:

You said: The sin Jesus talked about was being separated from your spouse and remarrying without first getting a divorce.

Jesus said "It has been said... BUT I say unto you". "BUT" makes no sense if "put away" means "separated", since he would have merely been repeating the obvious.

Moses permitted re-marriage of widows and divorcees, but not separated women. Yet priests were explicitly forbidden widows and put-away women. So even if your argument were true for Jesus, it MUST THEREFORE be false for Moses, or again, he would not have needed to re-state the obvious. He didn't need to say priests couldn't marry sheep, because they ALREADY couldn't do so, as NOBODY could do so.
---StrongAxe on 6/30/15


Re divorce:

God punishes the guilty, not the innocent. The innocent party in a divorce who obeys Jesus and seeks to continue the marriage, but the guilty party does not care to reconcile or stay within a functional Christian marriage, that marriage cannot be restored. The innocent party cannot be guilty of adultery, or guilty of causing the old or the new wife to commit adultery - Mt 5:32.

The innocent party can remarry without sin.
---aservant on 6/30/15


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The verses don't even make sense and are painfully redundant if "put away" and divorce mean the same thing. The sin Jesus talked about was being separated from your spouse and remarrying without first getting a divorce. Jesus said Whoever puts away his wife without giving her a divorce and remarries has committed adultery, and causes her to commit adultery. The adultery occurs because they are not divorced, merely separated. This is why the Bible tells husbands who put away (separate from) their wives to give their wife a divorce, so that she can be free to remarry without committing adultery. Whoever puts away his wife without giving her a divorce causes her to commit adultery.
---Jed on 6/29/15


will you that are ministers perform these kinds of marriages?
---KarenD on 6/26/15


I will not. I won't assist in legitimizing a capital offense to God, anymore than I would assist one to accomplish murder, adultery, or bestiality.
---aservant on 6/29/15


George_Austin:

That is only recent history (i.e. the last few hundred years). Before that, it was a civil contract, typically between the groom and the bride's father.

Many cultures have multiple kinds of marriages that perform different functions. We have three: common law (informal contract), religious (acknowledges union before God), and state registration (provides legal benefits and responsibilities). Most people do all three (i.e. get license, married in church, and live together), but not all do.

People got married long before churches got involved too.

Church-issued certificates won't work for people without organized religions, yet want to be married (e.g. atheists).
---StrongAxe on 6/29/15


\\My father and brother are ministers and they both have declared that they will give their licenses back to the state and perform no marriages at all.\\

So your father and brother received their ordination as Christian ministers from the State?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/15


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Historically marriage was a religious rather than a secular act. The state should never have gotten involved in issuing marriage certificates in the first place! Can you imagine state-issued baptismal certificates? Of course not!

Marriage should be a religious rather than a secular act. People were getting married long before the state started issuing "certificates". I suggest that churches and synagogues issue certificates, and that couples enter into marriage covenants signed and signed by witnesses, which the state can then recognize as contractual relationships.

Judaism never stopped having its own marriage contracts known as a "ketuvah", regardless of state "certification".
---George_Austin on 6/29/15


My father and brother are ministers and they both have declared that they will give their licenses back to the state and perform no marriages at all.

Both are concerned with lawsuits being filed against them for the stand that they will take against performing a same-sex marriage.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/29/15


\\Oh I see. So you WERE misinterpreting "put away" to mean divorce. Well, that explains your confusion. Carry on then.
---Jed on 6/29/15\\

"Put away" DOES mean divorce.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/15


Jed:

You said: So you WERE misinterpreting "put away" to mean divorce.

No. Please actually READ those passages and their context.

e.g. Is 50:1: ... Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? ...
This is a parallel construction, saying the same thing two different ways for emphasis.

If "put away" means separated and not divorced, these passages don't make any sense. NOBODY was allowed to re-marry merely separated women - that is already adultery (and no need for Jesus to say "Moses permitted divorce, but I say" as if it's something new). There is also no reason to forbid this to priests. Marriage of divorcees WAS allowed, but forbidden to priests.
---StrongAxe on 6/29/15


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Which one of these three marriages is his Biblical one?
---Cluny


Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

Mal 2:14 . . . the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously . . .
Mal 2:15 . . . Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
---aservant on 6/29/15


Oh I see. So you WERE misinterpreting "put away" to mean divorce. Well, that explains your confusion. Carry on then.
---Jed on 6/29/15


Jed:

These say "put away", which ONLY makes sense as divorce. Sometimes both terms are used:

Lv 21:7, Ez 44:22: priests can't marry divorcees
Is 50:1, Jr 3:8: Got divorces Israel
Jr 3:1: No re-marrying ex if she marries another
Mt 1:19: Joseph wanted to divorce Mary
Mt 5:31-32, 19:3-9, Mk 10:2-12, Lk 16:18: Jesus forbids divorce

These are similar, but less clear:

Dt 22:19: Man who falsely accuses his bride of non-virginity can't divorce
Dt 22:29: Laying with an unbetrothed woman, must marry and not divorce
Ezra 10:3,19: Priests divorced strange wives
Ml 2:10-16: God hates divorce (i.e. dealing treacherously with wife of your youth)
1 Co 7:10-15: Paul allows divorce of unbeliever
---StrongAxe on 6/28/15


Jed:

which Christians are you referring to that don't oppose divorce?

Many Christian denominations permit divorce, and re-marriage after divorce.

Christians aren't under attack for opposing divorce.

Christians aren't fighting tooth and nail to legislate constitutional amendments forbidding divorce. If they did, you can be sure they would encounter opposition.

divorce is a tragic reality.

Agreed, but staying in a pathological marriage (and getting beaten or maybe even killed) can be even worse.

There are no divorcee activists trying to sue churches, businesses, and individuals for being anti-divorce.

No bakers refuse to bake cakes for re-married divorced people.
---StrongAxe on 6/28/15


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Where does Jesus actually condemn remarriage after divorce? I hope you are not confusing "put away" (separation) with divorce. The bible actually uses two very distinct words for "put away" (separation) and divorce. Matthew 5:31-32 talks about sleeping with a woman who has merely been put away (separated), not divorced. Of course an un-divorced person who is merely separated will commit adultery if they sleep with another person. That's common knowledge.
---Jed on 6/28/15


\\StrongAxe, which Christians are you referring to that don't oppose divorce?\\

Jed, I have attended weddings in Christian churches performed by ministers.

At least one of the parties in these weddings were previously married and divorced.

It's not uncommon, Jed, but I don't think many such bloggers here will reveal themselves.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/15


StrongAxe, which Christians are you referring to that don't oppose divorce? I certainly do. I think the difference is that Christians aren't under attack for opposing divorce. There is a general consensus among Christians and secularists alike that divorce is a tragic reality. There are no divorcee activists trying to sue churches, businesses, and individuals for being anti-divorce. So there really is no need to constantly defend our position on divorce against pro-divorce activists that don't exist. That would be like saying Christians are okay with murder because they aren't constantly defending their position on murder. Not at all. It's just that Christians aren't under constant assault for calling murder a sin.
---Jed on 6/28/15


I agree aservent and good point.

On Christ the solid rock I stand.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/28/15


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\\StrongAxe, there would be no reason for Jesus to forbid same gender marriage since same gender relationships were already forbidden\\

Do you remember the Centurion (a gentile) asked Jesus to heal his servant?

The Greek word used on both accounts is PAIS, which has many meanings, including male concubine.

Jesus didn't upbraid him about the relationship, but simply said, "Yes, I'll heal him," and praised the Centurion's faith.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/15


yet they aren't screaming about divorce, which affects families much more, affecting 50% of the population. Why is that?
---StrongAxe on 6/27/15


Ministry, churches neglect many things they should not neglect: Truth, Obedience, Love, Forgiveness, Charity, Humility, Faith, Service, Being Light, Being Salt.

Why? Most likely bad teaching, hard hearts, stiff necks, unteachable, prefer conforming to flesh, prefer popularity.
---aservant on 6/28/15


I know I've asked a similar question elsewhere, but bear with me.

1. Newt Gingrich served wife #1 with divorce papers while she was in the hospital.

2. After divorcing her, he married wife #2, and then had an affair.

3. He divorced wife #2 and his mistress became wife #3.

Which one of these three marriages is his Biblical one?

A related question: Is adultery improved by adding perjury to it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/15


Jed:

My point is that Jesus DID condemn remarriage after divorce, and current statistics in America are that 50% of marriages (and this includes ones between evangelical Christians) end in divorce. Yet evangelicals are screaming loudly that same-gender marriage will be the end of the family and the end of the world (which curiously has not happened in jurisdictions where it has been legal for a long time already, and directly impacts only about 10% of the population), yet they aren't screaming about divorce, which affects families much more, affecting 50% of the population. Why is that?
---StrongAxe on 6/27/15


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StrongAxe, there would be no reason for Jesus to forbid same gender marriage since same gender relationships were already forbidden. So a same gender marriage would have been unthinkable at the time, and specifically forbidding them would have been redundant. Also, since there is actually no such thing as a same gender marriage, it would have made no sense to forbid something that isn't actually a thing. Only now do people pretend that a same gender relationship is a marriage. And same gender relationships are forbidden in the bible.
---Jed on 6/27/15


Rita_H:

You said: This will sort out the genuine 'Christian' ministers from 'the others'. Watch this space they say.

How do you define "genuine"? Those who preach what Jesus actually taught? As I pointed out, those who are screaming most loudly today are screaming about something he never said anything about, but aren't screaming about what he DID say things about. How "genuine" is that?
---StrongAxe on 6/27/15


\\(e.g. one threatened to set himself on fire),\\

"Thou shalt do no murder" means "Thou shalt not murder thyself."

Where are the people objecting to this minister threatening to violate the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/15


This will sort out the genuine 'Christian' ministers from 'the others'. Watch this space they say.
---Rita_H on 6/27/15


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Jed:

You said: I'm sure any minister who performs remarriages thinks they are Biblical. But I hope at least that any Christian minister would know at least that same gender marriages are not.

Many Christian ministers think same gender marriages are legitimate. Jesus EXPLICITLY forbade remarriage after divorce, but never said anything against same-gender relationships or marriage, so which has a weaker case for "Biblical legitimacy"? Unless Jesus's own words mean nothing?

There has been much hysteria about this ruling from conservative Christian pastors (e.g. one threatened to set himself on fire), yet one never hears similar hysteria about divorce and re-marriage, something Jesus actually taught about.
---StrongAxe on 6/27/15


\\ Starting an argument about whether remarriage is Biblical or not is irrelevant to the topic. \\

SCOTUS approving of "marriages that are not Biblical" was how the question was phrased.

I'm only answering the question as it was asked.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/15


I won't be performing them.
---learner2 on 6/26/15


No the Catholic Church will not bend. Everyone needs to put aside our differences and pray hard. Because they are coming after us with lawsuits.

Knock down the biggest one and the rest will fall in to place.

Our Priests are going to jail as the late Cardinal George predicted.
Please pray.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/26/15


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If you actually read the text of the ruling, it specifically says that it does not abridge religious freedom. Ministers will not be required to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs.

Such marriages have been legal in several states for many years, and this has not happened there.

Also, divorce has been legal in all 50 states for quite some time, yet Catholic clergy refuse to marry divorced people, without any legal repercussions.
---StrongAxe on 6/27/15


Leave it to Cluny to chime in with his "gotcha" moment instead of actually offering up something that is relevant to the question. Starting an argument about whether remarriage is Biblical or not is irrelevant to the topic. I'm sure any minister who performs remarriages thinks they are Biblical. But I hope at least that any Christian minister would know at least that same gender marriages are not.
---Jed on 6/27/15


According to the Savior, remarriage after divorce, except under very limited circumstances, is not Biblical.

That applies, I'm afraid, to many people on these blogs.

Were there marriages solemnized by ministers?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/15


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