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Heresy A Capital Crime

In a Christian nation, shouldn't heresy be a capital crime?

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Among the most important and fundamental gifts that God gave to man is freedom of conscience. Without it, man's worship of God is meaningless. Thus, to declare someone's beliefs a crime worthy of death is a usurpation of judgment belonging to God alone, and as such becomes a form of blasphemy. That's why the Muslim religion is an evil slap in God's face.



---jerry6593 on 11/22/15


\\Nicole_Lacey wrote: a Muslim can not comment a heresy because they are not baptized.

You wrote: St. John of Damascus considered Islam a heretical form of Christianity.\\

I understand what Nicole meant. For example, Buddhism might be a false religion, but it's not a heresy in the sense Nicole meant, as it didn't develop in Christianity.

Keep in mind that St. John of Damascus flourished in the early days of mahometanism. I've heard there's evidence that Mahomet might have been a nestorian or arian clergyman, but I don't know enough about this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/19/15


Good points Cluny and Strong ax. Thank you.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/20/15


Cluny:

Nicole_Lacey wrote: a Muslim can not comment a heresy because they are not baptized.

You wrote: St. John of Damascus considered Islam a heretical form of Christianity.

By that logic, ALL humans are capable of being declared heretics because they believe misguided versions of revelations God gave to Adam and Noah.

A similar leap of logic justified the Papal bull granting the entire western hemisphere to Spain. After all, the whole earth and all it contains belongs to God, with the Church as his custodians, and the Pope as its shepherd. Meanwhile, all the inhabitants there are just heretics anyway, so taking their lives and property is not murder and theft, but rather giving to God what is God's.
---StrongAxe on 11/19/15


Who will determine what in fact is heresy?

But are you laboring under the assumption that the USA is a Christian nation? Sorry, but she is not.

As the Treaty of Tripoli says, "The Government of the United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/19/15




While not declaring racism to be Heresy. The Seventh day Adventist church along with others were Abolitionist churches opposed slavery since all men are created by GOD. We are all descendants of Adam and Eve. We opposed racism and still do. My church is mixed ethnicity.

In 1452 Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, which granted Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery. The approval reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455. In 1488 Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves. In 1639 Pope Urban VIII purchased slaves for himself...

Other Popes opposed Slavery. Like I have said some good some bad.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/24/15


\\For an example, a Muslim can not comment a heresy because they are not baptized.\\

St. John of Damascus considered Islam a heretical form of Christianity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/23/15


In theological language there are two ways of being a heretic.
1. Formal heretics are simply those who hold to a false teaching because they don't know any better. Many people are formal heretics by accident.

2. Material heretics are those who know the teaching ... and reject it out of stubbornness and hatred for the truth, preferring their own opinions.
---Cluny on 7/4/15

This was two times informative. By your own formal accident you bloom in both heretical categories. GOD would even be a heretic in your "successive" church.
Deu_14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
---Trav on 7/23/15


Cluny, your comment had me searching about the word heresy.

In the RCC only people who are baptized can comment heresy.
Plus, they must FIRST realize the sin is a sin against the Church and refuse to summit to be corrected.

For an example, a Muslim can not comment a heresy because they are not baptized.

So how can a Racist Muslim comment a heresy because they never believe the Church's teaching that you can't be a Racist?

Seriously, I am asking because I am curious about your statement.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/11/15


May I be pardoned having some pleasure in pointing out that, as far as I can tell, the Orthodox Church is the ONLY Christian body to condemn racism as a heresy?

You read that right: not merely sin, but heresy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/15




The Pope worked to get Spain to invade and destroy the Protestant revolt in England. But it failed. Look up the invasion of the Spanish Armada.---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15

No I don't think you are a liar. Please DO NOT put words in my mouth.

I believe you twist things to FIT your thoughts of the RCC.

Let's use your words.
Influence doesn't mean CONTROL.

So, the Pope caused the Spanish war, but Queen Victoria didn't HAVE ANYTHING to do with the IRISH FAMINE?

Do you see how DOUBLE STANDARDED you are?

I would be understanding if you didn't seem so bias.

Truth is Truth.

You still didn't answer about Henry the VIII.

How did we lose England?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/10/15


Samuel BB said, "The Pope worked to get Spain to invade and destroy the Protestant revolt in England. But it failed."

I have never said you are lying. I have said that you are misinformed.

There was much more to the failed invasion of the Spanish Armada than a pope telling a king what to do. And BTW, Pope Sixtus V allowed Philip II of Spain to ask for donations and raise a tax, AND he considered it a crusade, and gave his blessing to it. He did not order Philip to do anything.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/10/15


But the popes is crowned with a triple crown. What does that triple crown represent. Do you know?

The Pope worked to get Spain to invade and destroy the Protestant revolt in England. But it failed. Look up the invasion of the Spanish Armada.

You seem to think I am always lying. So I am asking you to check it out yourself since you consider me to be a liar.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15


Samuel BB said, "I don't agree with many of the doctrines taught by the RCC and teach they are not biblical. But many Roman Catholics are Christians."

How kind and Christian of you to acknowledge that some are Christian.

However, the teaching of the Catholic Church on salvation is absolutely in line with Holy Scripture.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/9/15


The Popes have lost much of their political power since Pope Pius VI.---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15
Pope Pius VI was pope 1775 to 1799

Of course there have been terrible Popes. I don't DISAGREE. That isn't the point.

By your statement you are suggesting that Popes had MORE power of the Countries than it's Kings and Queen which ISN'T correct.

King Henry the VIII reign in early 16 century which is before Pope Pius VI.

Evidence of the Pope's NON-power is losing all of England to Henry the VIII.

The Popes HAS POWER in the Spiritual realm as given to Him by Jesus.

The Pope warned Henry VIII he would lose his Salvation for his actions. Bull was issued on the matter

Power in eternity, but NOT on Earth!
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/9/15


Nicole when the famine happened the Queen didn't have authority. I recognize what happened in history. There were other kings who were terrible and when they had full authority they were responsible for the actions of the nation.

There have been good Popes. The current one has many good qualities. There have been Terrible Popes, Such as Pope Alexander VI.

The Popes have lost much of their political power since Pope Pius VI. After that the Popes have had little political power and have not been able to wage war.

I don't agree with many of the doctrines taught by the RCC and teach they are not biblical. But many Roman Catholics are Christians.

So in all cases it depends on what I disagree with.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15


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StrongAxe said, "What about those who know the teaching of the Church, yet from a deep study of scripture, determine that what the Church teaching is wrong? This is how the Protestant Reformation came about (Anglicanism possibly excepted), and has resulted in many mini-schisms since then."

StrongAxe, I have studied scripture, I have paid attention to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and I am very leery of saying that the teachings of the Church--on issues of our salvation--are wrong. Yes, they made mistakes, but not in the core teaching of what is fundamental for our salvation.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/8/15


Samuel, so you refuse to blame the Queen, but able to blame the RCC.

Don't you see you are bias?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/8/15


Yes the Irish blamed the English Government and rightly so for much that went wrong and the little they did.

Britain or England conquered Ireland in the 17th century. the famine was in the 19th century. One of the big problems was the British tenet farming system established earlier.

So yes they can blame England and Parliament and the Queen. But it was many factors for over two hundred years.

People's memories about their situations are great. But all sides need to be examined.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/8/15


Samuel, it is like the holocaust deniers.
If you WON'T let a farmer to farm his own land, how is he to eat?
Just like in Russia. Stalin starved his own people by taking all their wheat they farmed themselves.

We may not agree about Queen Victoria's role. We do know:

1. England invaded

2. Irish people came to America and BLAMED the England Government for their flight here just to eat.
3. Older American Irish get very angry when you speak about England.
They will tell you everything if you wish to hear.
Just like Cubans who escaped.
Go find an old Cuban person and they will give you an ear full.

I trust the regular people's history than the Government's claim of history.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/7/15


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\\Cluny what did the Orthodox do with Heretics?\\

In Russia, heresy was connected with rebellion.

Look up the Old Believers/Raskolniki. It had started over a simple schism over liturgical reform in the official church that had gone too far (in some minds) and degenerated into oddities.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/7/15


Thank you Strong Ax. Great point. Nicole your history is a little off. But today most people don't know history.

Queen Victoria was a Constitutional Monarch. She could guide and suggest but the Prime Minister was in charge more then her.

History1800about website.

The response of the British government to the calamity in Ireland has long been a focus of controversy. Government relief efforts were launched, but they were often ineffective. And modern commentators have noted that economic doctrine in 1840s Britain generally accepted that poor people were bound to suffer and that government intervention was not warranted.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/7/15


Nicole_Lacey:

You said: along with History Channel, don't trust Wikipedia as well.
I can enter information on any subject with very little verification.


Wikipedia is peer-reviewed. If anyone posts something wrong, somebody who notices the error can correct it.

There was a study a few years ago, that compared the veracity of Wikipedia with that of Brittanica, and found the two were very similar. One of Wikipedia's strongest policies is that it does not permit new research. Everything MUST come from secondary sources (that are referenced in footnotes at the end of each page). This conforms with the Biblical concept that truth is established by 2-3 witnesses. If you don't trust it, read the references it points to.
---StrongAxe on 7/6/15


The King James Bible says to reject "an heretick" "after the first and second admonition". And my Bible says to warn "a divisive person" and "after the first and second admonition" to reject the person.

We in Jesus now already are His one "holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9).

We are ruled by God's own peace in our "hearts" > this is included in our basic calling >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

I would say no country has been ruled by God's peace in its citizens, so it was known and shown openly.
---Bill on 7/6/15


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Wikipedia "The Great Irish famine"
Who feed you that lie?---Samuelbb7

I am sorry, but I forgot to tell you that along with History Channel, don't trust Wikipedia as well.
I can enter information on any subject with very little verification.

The Grandchildren of the those who had family members dying from the famine.

Like the Holocaust, their survivor tell the TRUTH about their horror.
More reliable than any history book or media.

Queen Victoria was in CHARGE. Not like today.
Remember Queen Victoria allowed her husband to rule side by side until his death after approx. 20 years of marriage. Then she RULED alone again.

Their love story is beautiful. You should read about it.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/6/15


Nicole. Queen Victoria didn't control the Government of England during the famine. She in fact raised foods to help because of the famine. Wikipedia "The Great Irish famine"

Who feed you that lie?

True RCC Kings and Queens murdered heretics at the behest of the Popes. But Papal armies murdered many people. Look up Papal Armies.

Yes the RCC considered Protestants to be Hertics and sentanced them to death.

Cluny what did the Orthodox do with Heretics?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/5/15


Cluny:

You said: They DID know better, and insisted on their own way anyway.

Are you saying that they knew what they did was wrong but did it anyway (i.e. they didn't really believe what they were teaching)?

Or was it more a case of they knew what the Church was teaching, but honestly believed that the Church was teaching it wrong?

These are two very different things.
---StrongAxe on 7/5/15


\\You may argue that the reformers were, themselves, deluded, but wouldn't that put them into the first category at worst?
---StrongAxe on 7/4/15\\

Some of the Reformers were material heretics in sacramental, soteriorological, eccleosiological, and in some cases Christological matters.

They DID know better, and insisted on their own way anyway.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/15


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Nicole_Lacey:

You said: Samuel, you are correct. My understanding is that the Orthodox and Catholic separation is called a schism because the Priesthood hasn't been broken.

We both can trace the Priest Ordinations back to the Apostles.


How about Anglicans/Episcopalians (who started out as Catholics until Henry VIII wanted a divorce and couldn't get one legitimately), or Lutherans (Martin Luther was a Catholic priest)?

And remember Luke 9:49-50:
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
---StrongAxe on 7/5/15


The Bible is final authority not scholarship or history
We don't preach tithing (even for tax-deductions)
Our focus is seeing souls saved and saints edified through Gods Word (Romans 10:17).
Study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 tim 2:15).
Acts 24:14-15, Paul was accused of teaching heresy. He said the accusations were unsupported, but they called heresy, what Paul was preaching from the Word.
Paul taught "saved by grace through faith" in the blood of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9). It's only through this faith in Christ we obtain eternal life.
Just as with Paul the status quo is often in opposition to Biblical truth.
Finding your belief through study of Scripture is necessary.
---michael_e on 7/5/15


Samuel, you are correct. My understanding is that the Orthodox and Catholic separation is called a schism because the Priesthood hasn't been broken.

We both can trace the Priest Ordinations back to the Apostles.
(Lying on the hands)

I don't mean to be rude, but a heretics are those who can not trace the Priests back, nor thing Priests are needed any longer.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/15


StrongAxe: At last! The adult in the room speaks.


---jerry6593 on 7/5/15


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Cluny:

What about those who know the teaching of the Church, yet from a deep study of scripture, determine that what the Church teaching is wrong? This is how the Protestant Reformation came about (Anglicanism possibly excepted), and has resulted in many mini-schisms since then.

In fact, one could categorize the schism between the Catholics and Orthodox the same way, with people on both sides of the fence calling the others heretics.

You may argue that the reformers were, themselves, deluded, but wouldn't that put them into the first category at worst?
---StrongAxe on 7/4/15


In theological language there are two ways of being a heretic.

1. Formal heretics are simply those who hold to a false teaching because they don't know any better. Many people are formal heretics by accident.

2. Material heretics are those who know the teaching of the Church, understand it reasonably, and reject it out of stubbornness and hatred for the truth, preferring their own opinions.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/4/15


Yes, Samuel they didn't have potatoes to eat. Why? Because Queen Victoria took their land and told them they can get it back or rent it ONLY if THEY CONVERT!

Those who converted got fat because they got the lands from the Catholics who where brave and refused to live and deny Jesus.

Plus, you keep saying RCC were killing people is wrong.

Kings, Queens and rulers who were Catholic killed some people. There is a differences you know.

As Henry the VIII made himself the head of a fake Church in England, it made his Church a killing machine in his own Nation and abroad.

Remember Henry the VIII was Catholic. Catherine his wife was exiled because the Pope dare to tell Henry he can't DIVORCE HER.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/15


SamuelBB said, "But the Cathar and other anti-heretic crusades did execute millions. But it took close to a 1,500 years to do so. Not the exaggeration of the chick people. Foxes book of martyrs is a little more accurate. But then like I said it also depends on who or what you add to the list."

The closest number that I can find is about half a million--not millions, and it was all of the people in Languedoc, both Cathar and Catholic.

Foxe's Book of Martyrs is not a book I would use to make your point about Catholics killing people. Its scope is mostly Northern Europe, and it almost always speaks of Catholic killing protestants. Not what you could call balanced.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/4/15


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The Irish left because of a famine.

The British Government did not work hard to feed them.

Even religious people have a hard time forgetting that Roman Catholics had tried to destroy their country and force them to become Catholics again. They remembered that in the eyes of the Pope they were heretics a condition punishable by death by torture.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/4/15


Cluny OK I can understand that but thanks for at least telling me. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/3/15


\\I do have a question please tell me does the Orthodox Church think all are heretics if they don't belong to the Orthodox Church?\\

This is too complex a topic to give a "yes/no" answer to.

St. Augustine said, "So many sheep without, so many wolves within."

It certainly cannot be justly handled in 125 words.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/3/15


StrongAxe, understood.
---learner2 on 7/3/15


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It was Cromwell who really did a fine job murdering the Irish. A fine Puritan he was!
---learner2 on 7/3/15


Samuel, I WASN'T claiming they died under Elizabeth.

Even you looked up the number of Irish people dying because of England HATERD for Catholics that Elizabeth started 3 centuries ago.
Remember, America was just discovered about 100 years earlier during her reign.

It was Queen Victoria who was reigning during the famine.

Please tell me WHY the Irish left their beloved Country?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/3/15


Dear Nicole they called her Bloody Mary for the fact she made it a crime to be a Protestant punishable by Burning at the stake.

Elizabeth killed 68 Catholics for trying to murder her and disobeying her new laws.

More then 1.5 million Irish Catholics perished in the famine. Which was in the 1800's after Queen Elizabeth had died in the 1600's.

Mary had about 300 Protestants murdered for being Protestant and refusing to recant. She was more lenient then a number of other RCC leaders.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/3/15


learner2:

You said: StrongAxe, you make a good point. I guess I had in mind murder and theft, perjury, crimes common to most societies. Are those crimes against God?

Most things that violate other people's (legally-defined) rights are considered crimes in most societies, and these also usually violate "love your neighbor as yourself", so are also sins/crimes against God.

Things that violate "love God above all things" (e.g. blasphemy) are typically only also secular crimes in strong theocracies (like most Muslim countries) or weak theocracies (like European countries with state churches).

There are some crimes that are not sins (see my previous message).
---StrongAxe on 7/2/15


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StrongAxe, you make a good point. I guess I had in mind murder and theft, perjury, crimes common to most societies. Are those crimes against God?
---learner2 on 7/2/15


learner2:

You asked: Aren't all crimes crimes against God?

No. Which of the following would be crimes against God?

Daniel's friends worshipping Nebuchadnezzar, or refusing to do so (and facing incineration?)

First-century Christians burning incense to Caesar, or refusing to do so (and being eaten by lions?)

Illegally hiding Jews from Nazis, or obeying the law and turning them over for certain death?
---StrongAxe on 7/2/15


Monk-Brendan

Chick is way out in left field or right field. He is is so far into conspiracies that I can't read anything of his. True the numbers executed for Heresy varies. Many add those killed in the Papal wars.

But the Cathar and other anti-heretic crusades did execute millions. But it took close to a 1,500 years to do so. Not the exaggeration of the chick people. Foxes book of martyrs is a little more accurate. But then like I said it also depends on who or what you add to the list.

Also the RCC gave up murder a couple of hundred years ago. There have been some good Popes in history also.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/2/15


Samuel, I think if someone told you a Catholic killed Saul the first king of the Jews you would believe it before thinking.

You refuse to think about a statement if a Catholic is being accused.
As Monk said, millions? Come on. BTW Cluny is correct. More Catholics died. Remember Mary was Queen for less than 5 years. Her sister was Queen for more than 30 years.
So by the numbers alone it would make anyone question your statement.

Also, they called her bloody Mary to change history and cause confusion. And they fooled you.
If you say it often enough people will believe it.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/2/15


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SamuelBB said, "The Roman Catholic church killed or had killed millions for Heresy. Way more then the Tudors did.
Also don't forget Bloody Mary the Catholic Queen."


You are misinformed. I admit that in the bad old days the Catholic Church did kill some heretics. But millions? Come on, that is sheer anti-Catholic rhetoric as put forth by many Protestant denominations and Jack Chick comics.

Take a look at a good history of the Catholic Church written by an unbiased observer, and you will see that the Catholic Church did not--indeed could not--kill millions of people.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/2/15


Aren't all crimes crimes against God?
---learner2 on 7/2/15


Great point Cluny. Thank you.

Heresy is a crime against GOD. He needs to be the one to punish it. For only He can read hearts. Only He is the true Judge.

John 8:16
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

GOD calls all.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/2/15


Cluny it sure makes me glad that no Church Denomination can judge God's people. I do have a question please tell me does the Orthodox Church think all are heretics if they don't belong to the Orthodox Church? God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/2/15


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\\Also don't forget Bloody Mary the Catholic Queen.
\\

Actually, more Catholics died under Elizabeth than Protestants under her sister.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/2/15


Isn't heresy more serious than murder?
---learner2 on 7/1/15


And just who would hold the authority to determine what is and what is not heresy?

According to the Orthodox Church, most of the people on these blogs are Christological heretics.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/15


The Roman Catholic church killed or had killed millions for Heresy. Way more then the Tudors did.

Also don't forget Bloody Mary the Catholic Queen.

You are correct no one should be murdered for Heresy. No More Saint Bartholomew Massacres. No more Crusades like the ones that wiped out the Cathars.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/1/15


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Absolutely not! Heresy might be a sin, but it is not, and (thank God) never has been here in America.

But even in a Christian country (which America is not), the law of the land should have no impact on the belief of the individual.

Chopping heads off or torture is in the realm of Islam, the Spanish Inquisition, and England under the Tudors and the Stuarts. Most civilized countries have left those things in the past.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/1/15


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