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List Of Christian Martyrs

The word Martyr in a Christian sense is about someone--or some group--killing people who are Christian. What books would you recommend that would be able to give lists or all the martyrs ever made?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 7/4/15
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Receive me, good St. Anne, into the number of your true clients, for so I profess myself and wish to remain throughout my entire life.
Obtain for me, from God, the power to imitate those virtues with which you are so plentifully endowed. Help me to know and regret my sins bitterly. Obtain for me the grace of active love for Jesus and Mary, and resolution to fulfill the duties of my state of life with faithfulness.
Save me from every danger that confronts me in life, and help me at the hour of my death.
Amen.




Cluny and Strongaxe, this is idolatry my friends...

See Exodus 20:1-5
---john9346 on 8/13/15


"I was pointing out 1 Co 4:6 has nothing to do with Cluny's question."

Strongaxe, Paul said, "Do not exceed that which is
written."

If someone teaches, mary worship and prayers to saints/dead they are exceeding that which is written and what was written Scripture my friend...

"Our "canon" comes from church tradition, not scripture itself."
Strongaxe, the canon cames from the Early Disciples who knew based upon 4 criterias what was Scripture,furthermore, Jesus nor the apostles never recognized the apocrypha nor deuterocanonical books as Scripture.
---john9346 on 8/13/15


Learner2 said, " StrongAxe, Scripture nowhere says that any punishment is permanent. There are many scriptures which show that God's intention is to save everybody. Why would it not be? He can do it, despite our free will. He can manage whatever he wants. Christ came to save sinners, not destroy them. And he will do it."

Rev 19:3 And again they shouted:

Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.

That sounds awfully final. If God says forever, He means forever, not just until God says that, even though they sinned and did not repent, they can get out of hell.

BTW, this is one of the doctrines that has me stumped, too.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 8/13/15


Trav:
Do you believe that Paul contradicts Christ?
---StrongAxe on 8/12/15

Doctrines of men using Paul contradict Christ. For example most quote Pauls writings. Why? Christ should be the first quoted. Prophets second then the Apostles.
Christ is specific. Prophets are specific.
Apostles are specific...except for Paul. Paul is specific when his Prophet references are investigated/aligned. Few align them. These don't say what the doctrines of men want them say. Through Paul doctrines of men are devised. Does this make Paul false? No, apostles of Paul illuminates themselves misinterpreting Paul instead of honoring Christ and the Prophets first or at all.
---Trav on 8/13/15


Trav:

If both agree, then there is no problem quoting Paul. Do you believe that Paul contradicts Christ? And, if so, where? Should we consider Paul a false apostle? You didn't answer the question.


john9346:

I was pointing out 1 Co 4:6 has nothing to do with Cluny's question, i.e. it does NOT say scripture is the "last word". Re-read what I wrote. It's to prevent personality cults (like we sadly have today).

if I am understanding you the apocrypha and the deuterocanonical books are "Scripture.?"

Good question. Some people (e.g. Catholics) believe they are. To whom has God given the authority to determine this? Our "canon" comes from church tradition, not scripture itself.
---StrongAxe on 8/12/15




Where are the dead saints invoked in the psalms?

Isaiah 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

This is where Jesus says they will be resurrected.

Context.

Heb 4:14-16

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, ....Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/13/15


"But we don't worship Mary."

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Cluny, only God can do this my friend.


"The saints are invoked in the Psalms." "And Jesus mentioned Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, pointing out that they are alive in God's sight."

Know where Scripturally are we commanded to pray/pitition saints to ask God on our behalf.
---john9346 on 8/12/15


\\"Please give one of our traditions that contradicts Scripture."
Mary Worship, prayers to saints and dead persons.
\\

But we don't worship Mary, so you're wrong.

The saints are invoked in the Psalms.

And Jesus mentioned Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, pointing out that they are alive in God's sight.

Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/12/15


Trav:
You said: But, then I'm a follower of Christ...not Paul.
If Paul was a false apostle, these would be glaring omissions.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/15

You are defending your choice following Paul.
I said there were two choices. Paul either follows scripture or he doesn't.
But, then why do you need Paul?
Isn't Christ first and enough? Or does Christ say things that trouble you? Paul references the Prophets...that Christ fulfilled.
Is Paul your messiah? Or is Christ.
Christ and the Prophets verifying are light years ahead, you might say an eternity ahead, of a modern Paul.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
---Trav on 8/12/15


"This says "all scripture is profitable". It does NOT say "all non-scripture is non-profitable","
StrongAxe, did you read the rest why is all Scripture profitable??

"1 Corinthians 4:6 merely says not to esteem men "above that which is written". It does not say to" not esteem them at all.
Strongaxe, I think you are not understanding Cluny's Question.
In 1 Cor 4:6 what is the conparison Paul is making in regards to esteeming men??

So, if I am understanding you the apocrypha and the deuterocanonical books are "Scripture.?"
---john9346 on 8/12/15




john9346:

Cluny wrote: And where does Scripture say it is the last word in faith and practice?
You wrote: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 1 Cor 4:6.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: ...

This says "all scripture is profitable". It does NOT say "all non-scripture is non-profitable", just as saying "bread is good to eat" does not imply "apples are therefore bad because they are not bread".

1 Corinthians 4:6 merely says not to esteem men "above that which is written". It does not say to not esteem them at all.
---StrongAxe on 8/12/15


"Please give one of our traditions that contradicts Scripture."
Mary Worship, prayers to saints and dead persons.

"And where does Scripture say it is the last word in faith and practice?"
2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 1 Cor 4:6.
---john9346 on 8/11/15


Trav:

You said: But, then I'm a follower of Christ...not Paul. You can only appeal Paul for your doctrine. I'll post Christ, Prophets, Apostles.

Yet Paul said he was an Apostle of Christ. Peter occasionally challenged his opinions, but not his calling. When Jesus wrote to the churches in Revelation, he condemned the Nicolaitans, and the woman he called Jezebel. But not one word against Paul. If Paul was a false apostle, these would be glaring omissions.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/15


Trav:
You said: You do not post the differences in Covenants.
How about Acts, and writings of Paul, that dealt with the Gospel being spread to non-Jews?
---StrongAxe on 8/7/15

Not my words but, it applies as well.
Paul? Two choices with Paul. 1. He was an outlaw that went against Christ and the Prophets. 2. He honored everything Christ said and the Prophets.
Now Christ stated:Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Did Paul disobey? Did Paul quote Prophets?
But, then I'm a follower of Christ...not Paul. You can only appeal Paul for your doctrine. I'll post Christ, Prophets, Apostles.
---Trav on 8/11/15


\\Jesus frequently quoted scripture to the Pharisees to show how their traditions were in conflict with script\\

And just as frequently, Jesus would quote the Torah, yet continue, "But **I** say unto you...."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/15


Cluny:

You said: And where does Scripture say it is the last word in faith and practice?

Jesus frequently quoted scripture to the Pharisees to show how their traditions were in conflict with scripture - thus, asserting the supremacy of scripture over tradition, when the two are in conflict.
---StrongAxe on 8/9/15


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\\But if a Tradition that contradicts scripture is followed then you placing commandments of men above scripture. \\

Please give one of our traditions that contradicts Scripture.

And where does Scripture say it is the last word in faith and practice?

And where does Scripture say that the Saturday Sabbath is obligatory on Gentiles--either Gentile Christians or in genera? Give BCV.

Glory to Jesus Christ
---Cluny on 8/9/15


Amen Strong ax. Scripture must be quoted correctly and not out of context.

Amen Chria9396

All scripture on a topic must be examined and reconciled to find truth.

Yes Cluny you do not have to play by our rules.

But if a Tradition that contradicts scripture is followed then you placing commandments of men above scripture.

Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/15


Cluny:

You said: Satan and the Pharisees quoted scripture to Jesus.

I suppose you think they were speaking the truth, then.


"Person X did thing Y, and it was wrong. You did Y, so it is wrong too" is a logical fallacy, unless you are given that Y is wrong in the first place.

Jesus also quoted scripture to the Pharisees. If you question their doing it, you must also question his doing it. It's not about quoting scriptures per se, but rather the context in which they are quoted.
---StrongAxe on 8/8/15


"Then I guess scripture contradicts scripture."
---learner2 on 8/3/15

True scripture never contradicts, rather, it is an individuals understanding that needs correcting. This is done as the Lord reveals truth and one is open to truth.
---Chria9396 on 8/8/15


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\\The first sign it is truth, is when you avoid the scriptures supporting.
The second is your acidic comments.
And the Third is you have never in the years posting here been able to scripturally post any proof otherwise. \\

Satan and the Pharisees quoted scripture to Jesus.

I suppose you think they were speaking the truth, then.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/7/15


Trav:

You said: You do not post the differences in Covenants.

How about Acts, and writings of Paul, that dealt with the Gospel being spread to non-Jews?

The second is your acidic comments.

Before complaining about another's acidic comments, you should first examine your own. Remember what Jesus said about the speck in your brother's eye.

And the Third is you have never in the years posting here been able to scripturally post any proof otherwise.

While Sola Scriptura protestants require proof of all doctrines from scripture, Catholics and Orthodox also accept church tradition. If you don't like him not playing by your rules, would you accept criticism for not playing by his?
---StrongAxe on 8/7/15


You don't actually think that what you say here is truth, do you?
---Cluny on 7/24/15

The first sign it is truth, is when you avoid the scriptures supporting.
The second is your acidic comments.
And the Third is you have never in the years posting here been able to scripturally post any proof otherwise.
Your negative, sarcastic spirit is your mark and testimony. Every time.
Pro_15:20 A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish man despiseth his mother.
Pro_9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
---Trav on 8/7/15


No Learner2 Scripture does not contradict scripture. You have made a mistake in your understanding.

GOD does not force people to be saved. He allows us to make our choice. This is called free will. By choosing to believe that GOD forces people to be saved you make the same mistake that those who teach predestination do.

Most of them teach GOD only loves a few people and hates the rest. Which is why the limited atonement. You recognize that the Atonement offered is universal. But by denying free will you end up making scripture contradict scripture.

So what should you do?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/4/15


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Then I guess scripture contradicts scripture.
---learner2 on 8/3/15


thank you Strong Ax.

Your answer is one of the proofs that Predestination is based on false assumptions as well as universal salvation.

Thank you.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/3/15


learner2:

You said: The bible also says that God is the savior of all, and that he wants everyone saved, and that no one can disrupt God's plans. So it will happen, whether we approve or not.

Yet the Bible also says that some will be damned. These two things could not both be true, unless some things happen that God doesn't like. And believe me, there are a LOT of things in thee Bible that God didn't like. After all, why did he need the Flood at all, if everything from Adam onwards went "according to God's will"?
---StrongAxe on 8/1/15


Learner2 The point you make contradicts other scriptures.

To find true doctrine all scriptures on a topic must work together. My understanding reconciles all scriptures with each other. How does yours? Where is the scriptures I present incorrect?

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick, therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Satan to be destroyed.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/1/15


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The bible also says that God is the savior of all, and that he wants everyone saved, and that no one can disrupt God's plans. So it will happen, whether we approve or not.
---learner2 on 7/31/15


Lerner2 The Bible says.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When something is destroyed it is gone. We have first death and second death. Where is a third resurrection?

Malichi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Will Satan and all the demons be saved in your understanding?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/31/15


StrongAxe, Scripture nowhere says that any punishment is permanent. There are many scriptures which show that God's intention is to save everybody. Why would it not be? He can do it, despite our free will. He can manage whatever he wants. Christ came to save sinners, not destroy them. And he will do it.
---learner2 on 7/30/15


Rita_H:

You quoted: "That is proof that you can be saved and do miracles in Jesus' name, but lose your salvation and go to hell." Strongaxe - not necessarily so. Many claim to be saved but, perhaps, are not. God sees things we don't see.

I didn't say that myself. I was quoting what Nicole_Lacey said (which is why that paragraph was in italics). I was, in fact, making exactly the same point that you were, from the passage I subsequently quoted, especially the bold-faced part.
---StrongAxe on 7/30/15


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"That is proof that you can be saved and do miracles in Jesus' name, but lose your salvation and go to hell." Strongaxe - not necessarily so. Many claim to be saved but, perhaps, are not. God sees things we don't see.

We must not forget that Satan has powers also and some of those people performing miracles will have been duped by him, and are not working for God. This is why so many are fooled and why some televangelists have fooled so many.

Those people still have the opportunity of BEING Saved though, if they will only humble themselves, reject all Satan's lies and confess their sins to God.
---Rita_H on 7/30/15


Nicole_Lacey:

You said: How do you know he is in Heaven? You don't!

Exactly! We don't know. Wheat and tares.

God speaks about people saying "Lord, Lord didn't we do wonders in your name?"
But, Jesus told them "I don't know you."

That is proof that you can be saved and do miracles in Jesus' name, but lose your salvation and go to hell.


Matthew 7:23 (see also Matthew 25)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Note the bold text. This is a matter of being deceived and thinking they were saved, rather than being saved and losing it later.
---StrongAxe on 7/29/15


Correct Nicole and good point. Many who say they are saved will be lost because they did not love people. They cared about themselves.

Monk Brendan You can go online and read a book by Ellen G. White called Desire of Ages. Or a short book called Steps to Christ. They are on the Ellen G. White official website. Just to say you have looked at her book in context. Then tel me what you think.

agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/29/15


Strongaxe, you are CORRECT when you state the Bible doesn't state what happen to Judas after he died.
BUT, it also doesn't states he is in Heaven.

How do you know he is in Heaven? You don't!

I used Judas as an example because 2 Apostles appointed by Jesus sinned against Jesus but only one repented.
The other might have felt bad, but he SEEMED to have LOST HOPE and killed himself not thinking he can face Jesus to get forgiveness.

God speaks about people saying "Lord, Lord didn't we do wonders in your name?"
But, Jesus told them "I don't know you."

That is proof that you can be saved and do miracles in Jesus' name, but lose your salvation and go to hell.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/29/15


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learner2:

You said: Judas has been saved along with the rest of humanity. Says so in the Bible.

Where, specifically, does the Bible say that every single human will be saved? Yet it frequently mentions those cast into outer darkness, where there will be weeping of gnashing of teeth - hardly hallmarks of salvation.
---StrongAxe on 7/28/15


Learner said, " Judas has been saved along with the rest of humanity. Says so in the Bible."

Are you being ironic again?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/29/15


Judas has been saved along with the rest of humanity. Says so in the Bible.
---learner2 on 7/28/15


Nicole_Lacey:

You said: NO! Judas proved you can be Saved and no longer.

Proved? How so? According to OSAS, Judas may have been saved, then sinned (but was forgiven), nevertheless felt guilt and committed suicide, but was nevertheless still saved and went to heaven. There is nothing in scripture that said what happened to Judas AFTER he died.

(Again, I am not saying this is necessarily true, merely pointing out the flaw in the logical argument).
---StrongAxe on 7/28/15


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So Nicole you believe in once saved always saved?
Therefore I don't trust them to teach me truth. Nor do I trust their teachings or follow their example.--Samuelbb7 on 7/26/15

NO! Judas proved you can be Saved and no longer.

You have to Trust Jesus that the evil men CAN NOT cancel Jesus' Graces.

Just as Saul was still God's ANOINTED after he sinned.
No one could take away his appointment. NOBODY.

David made it clear when he put that man to death.

Trust Jesus because He is everyone's High Priest not just your High Priest.
The good and the bad.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/27/15


So Nicole you believe in once saved always saved?

Correct GOD can use evil men and women. But their laws and commands are not all of GOD. Was it correct for Saul to have the priests murdered?

1Samuel 22:21
And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD'S priests.

So Judas is an example to be followed?

"Because the Blessings are from Him not the evil men."
Nicole_Lacey

True. But the evil they do makes them not followers of GOD. Therefore I don't trust them to teach me truth. Nor do I trust their teachings or follow their example.

I follow Jesus. He is my example and my Lord and Savior. He is my High Priest above all others.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/26/15


Samuel, you seem to think if one sins after being chosen it cancels God from have chosen him.
Not so.

Even David knew it was wrong for the Soldier to kill Saul because why?
Saul was ANOINTED by God.
2 Samuel 1:16
.."You are responsible for your own death, for you testified against yourself when you said, 'I dispatched the Lord's anointed.'"

Jesus chose Judas and even told him to his face he was a devil.
John 6:70-71

Judas was a thief and still carried the purse.
John 12:6

Your ways are not God's Ways.

God still allows position and power to be in the hands of evil men, but Blessings through those same evil hands.
Because the Blessings are from Him not the evil men.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/25/15


Dear Cluny if he didn't think it was truth he would not be posting it.

On a different point. There are martyrs dying today.

Many don't make the news. We should be praying for them and doing what we can to help them.

Father in Heaven your children are suffering and dying because they love you. Some are in prison. Please send your Holy Spirit to comfort them. And if it be your will free them.

In the name of Jesus we pray. Amen.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/25/15


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\\Truth has provoked your reply even.\\

You don't actually think that what you say here is truth, do you?

Are you that confused?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/24/15


Trav:

You said: Truth will always feel hostile to arrogant falsehood.

Yes, this is very true. Jesus himself said that his disciples would be persecuted, because the world hates the truth.

Who is hostile here? Which of us uses ad-hominem attacks to attack others, rather than speaking to the issues they raise, in an effort to denigrate them, and thus weaken the arguments they present?

You could succeed as a defender if you provided scripture to back your position. Otherwise you are just a hostile weakened opinion.

Whenever I post here, I spend twice as much time cutting text to fit the artificial 125-word limit as I do composing. If I can't give you details you want, blame the site administrators.
---StrongAxe on 7/24/15


\\Truth will always feel hostile to arrogant falsehood.\\

Unlike you, Trav, truth has nothing to be hostile about.
---Cluny on 7/23/15

Ah but, you make a witness that it does sir.
Truth has provoked your reply even. Truth, hates untruth as the scriptures testify.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
The protestant sheep escaping the foolishness and falseness of your church provoke your sneering posts.
The scriptures you never post or verify are enough sign for any sheep to gain understanding.
---Trav on 7/24/15


\\Truth will always feel hostile to arrogant falsehood.\\

Unlike you, Trav, truth has nothing to be hostile about.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/23/15


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Trav:
Apostolic succession is passed by laying on of hands... These are two different covenants, with different priesthoods...totally different.
Your hostile tone indicates ...
---StrongAxe on 7/23/15

Truth will always feel hostile to arrogant falsehood.
You do not post the differences in Covenants. You cannot. They are to exactly the same people. Successors, inheritors. Rom 9:4, Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31.
You could succeed as a defender if you provided scripture to back your position. Otherwise you are just a hostile weakened opinion.
As your friend hating every false way, I've pointed out error, not as an enemy.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
---Trav on 7/23/15


If the person who lays hands on you has murdered others, stole from widows and made orphans then sold them into slavery. Is that person still a true Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ? Or are they a false apostle who had turned the truth of GOD into a lie. By saying it is okay if they have mistresses and murder people. For that are specially chosen.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/23/15


\\Your church resembles ancient Judah in ritualistic styles that no Apostle is recorded of, yet the Pharisees are. Thousand dollar robes, hats and traditions.\\

Tell me everything you actually KNOW (not what you merely think you know) about Orthodox worship.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/23/15


Trav:

You said: Ha. So your "apostolic" guys are all Israel? All the Apostles were.

Apostolic succession is passed by laying on of hands and conferring of authority, back to the first apostles of Jesus, not by genetic descent from Aaron, which was the way priesthood was transferred in Israel. These are two different covenants, with different priesthoods.

Which house do they claim? Judah or the Northern House of Ten?

Neither, because the two covenants are totally different.

By marks are your "successors" are known. And their spawn.

Your hostile tone indicates that you are just interested in accusation, rather than honest discussion.
---StrongAxe on 7/23/15


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... Apostolic succession, which no Protestant church has.
---Cluny on 7/9/15

Ha. So your "apostolic" guys are all Israel? All the Apostles were.
Funny they never mention Israel. Stranger you've never posted scriptures about Israel, or Christ search for "lost" of them.
Which house do they claim? Judah or the Northern House of Ten? Your church resembles ancient Judah in ritualistic styles that no Apostle is recorded of, yet the Pharisees are. Thousand dollar robes, hats and traditions.

Your apostolic succession was infiltrated centuries ago. They have not looked for a Israelite "sheep" for successive centuries.
By marks are your "successors" are known. And their spawn.
---Trav on 7/22/15


Samuel BB, If you don't believe in Apostolic Succession, then why are you arguing with me about it?

"Do you believe that Tradition is a higher authority then the Bible?"

Quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/10/15


\\ I don't believe in Apostolic succession. \\

Do you think that stops it from existing in the pre-Reformation churches?

It's very easy to despise what you lack. (Remember the fable of the fox and the grapes?)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/15


The excommunications were revoked after 900 years. Were both side equal and therefore both sides are equal today?

Is not the Pope the Vicar of Christ? Which would make the Orthodox under his rule?

I don't believe in Apostolic succession. Especially if the doctrines of the Bible are subverted by the teachings of any church.

Do you believe that Tradition is a higher authority then the Bible?

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Can we pray to directly to GOD the father through our High Priest Jesus Christ?

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/10/15


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Cluny:

You wrote: The Orthodox have a direct link to Peter and the other Apostles. This is what is called Apostolic succession, which no Protestant church has.

Don't the Anglicans also have that, having been sliced off from Catholicism under Henry VIII?
---StrongAxe on 7/10/15


Samuel BB said, "We don't believe a man of sin... hatred can be a Pope....there up to three popes at the same time. Or that during the Schism when...both sides were excommunicated... [they] cannot be correct."

#1. The excommunications have been lifted and revoked--as if they had never happened.

#2. Granted, there were some men that were made Pope who were not worthy of that office--including anti-popes.

#3. The direct link from Peter (and the other apostles) continues down to the various Catholic bishops of today. Remember, one does not need to be pope to practice the charism of bishop. All Catholic bishops can trace their lineage back to one of the apostles.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/9/15


\\We don't believe a man of sin and hatred can be a Pope. \\

Since you're an SDA, who are you to say who can and cannot be a Pope? (Of course, I realize that all SDA ministers are so pure they glow in the dark like St. Seraphim of Sarov.)

In any case, personal sin does NOT adversely mitigate the sacraments a minister celebrates and administers. To say it does is the heresy of Donatism.

\\So no one has a direct link back to Peter. We count on following the Bible.\\

Wrong. The Orthodox have a direct link to Peter and the other Apostles. This is what is called Apostolic succession, which no Protestant church has.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/9/15


I guess I should have made my point clearer. Monk Brendan.

Foxe was mainly concerned with Protestant Martyrs. Mostly in England and Scotland. It is not an all encompassing book. I apologize for not stating that clearer.

Roman Catholic history of Martyrs do not include Protestants.

From one discussion here it seems that Protestants cannot be legitimate. We cannot link our hands back to Peter.

We don't believe a man of sin and hatred can be a Pope. At times in history there up to three popes at the same time. Or that during the Schism when both sides were excommunicated that both sides cannot be correct.

So no one has a direct link back to Peter. We count on following the Bible.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15


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Samuel BB said, "He starts in the New Testament. Back before the Schism before the RCC and Orthodox excommunicated each other."

Yes, but after the first two centuries or so, Foxe jumps to some of the first anti-Protestant purges, and continues on with all of the crimes that he can lay at the feet of the Catholic Church. But he does not mention the saints that were killed because of anti-Christian hatred.

All of the massacres of Islam leveled against Catholics (back before there were any Protestants), and yet not a single mention in Foxe's book. Why?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/8/15


Cluny, that why I said the statement:
Some of their Priests are trying to come into the RCC and the Vatican is trying to help them.---Nicole_Lacey on 7/7/15

You are correct. THEY ARE PRIESTS.
But not united with RCC and they wish to be united.
Pope B16 started the process.
But there are SOME Priests that are having problems linking back as I said.

The RCC has to be sure. Some they will do an Ordination JUST IN CASE.
But once ordain you CAN'T REPEAT the Sacrament again as you know.

But at times only God knows if the person is a Priest are not,so the RCC is being cautious.

The Vatican is working meaning finding out if the Ordination is VALID or not. If not they will be Ordain by the RCC.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/8/15


\\Some became Priests and some couldn't link their laying of the hands back to Peter during their Ordination.\\

Not true.

The priests and bishops of the SSPX can trace their orders back to the apostles.

However, Abp. Marcel Lefevre (sp?) consecrated 4 bishops without papal permission to do so.

While they were validly made bishops, it was irregular and illicit. (Don't try to get me to explain the difference.)

And once schism starts, it never stops.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/8/15


Thanks Rita, I know about them, but I didn't know it's abbreviation.

They were kicked out of the RCC over 50 years now I believe.

They didn't like Vatican II, forcing Priests to speaking the native tongue when offering the Mass.
They only wanted Latin.
Then they started ordaining their men for the Priesthood.
Some became Priests and some couldn't link their laying of the hands back to Peter during their Ordination.
Some of their Priests are trying to come into the RCC and the Vatican is trying to help them.
I believe their leader died, so now the followers are realizing their mistake.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/7/15


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Monk_Brendan

Good point. I should have mentioned that it was only Protestants in the latter half of the book. Or 2/3rds. Sorry been awhile since I read it.

He starts in the New Testament. Back before the Schism before the RCC and Orthodox excommunicated each
other.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/7/15


Nicole - Society of St. Pius X. I didn't know either so I 'googled' it.
---Rita_H on 7/7/15


I also don't like the SSPX.---learner2 on 7/5/15

Sorry, you lost me. What is SSPX?

I love Dr. Charles Stanley and his son Andy.

I just ignore some of his statement, but enjoy the rest we agree on.

He is the 1ST Pastor that was able to hold my attention (when I 17 years old) through his whole sermon.

When it was finish I was amazed that the hour had flown by so quickly.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/6/15


Possibly, some amount of martyr promotion is a hoax to push a certain religion as being better than all the rest. Also, I suspect there are people who suppose that being killed for their faith will make up for how they have lived sinful lives. I possibly have seen a certain person who was so rotten, on the Net, and then she slipped out her ID and location . . . maybe so someone would kill her and she would get into heaven, in spite of how she was so unloving.

Philippians 1:23-24 shows me how Paul would have loved to be martyred so he could go to be with Jesus >

"Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."
---Bill on 7/6/15


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\\ So I attend a Baptist church with my wife, who was never Catholic. I don't like it much either, but the people are courteous and leave me alone.\\

Is there an Eastern Catholic Church (not the same thing as Eastern Orthodox) in your area?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/6/15


Samuel BB said, " Foxes Book of Martyrs is a good source."

Oh? Then where in that book is St. Thomas More? Or St. Thomas Becket? Both were martyred for upholding and defending the faith.

Foxe wrote about Protestants being killed by Catholics in England and Scotland from 1000 A.D. until 1563. Hardly fair and/or balanced.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/6/15


Foxes Book of Martyrs is a good source.

Wikipedia has a good article on this book. It gives the words of it's detractors and proponents as well as it's history and problems.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/6/15


Nicole, on the books I'm still Roman Catholic. But I don't like the modern church much. I also don't like the SSPX. So I attend a Baptist church with my wife, who was never Catholic. I don't like it much either, but the people are courteous and leave me alone.
---learner2 on 7/5/15


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Learner2, the Roman Martyrology is not exhaustive, as it admits itself. Every day has the closing formula, "And elsewhere, other holy martyrs, confessors, and virgins."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/15


Learner, you amaze me every day. You have odd beliefs in my opinion as I may have in your opinion as well.

But you are FAIR AND BALANCE
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/15


Roman Martyrology
---learner2 on 7/4/15


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