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Once Saved Always Saved

Does "once saved always saved" apply to people of minority affectional orientations?

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Close Kathyr

Eph 2:11-16

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.... one new man, so making peace,

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

We are now all part of the commonwealth.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/26/15


True Trav the New Covenant is made with Israel and Judah.

Which is why the called out people of GOD are now part of Israel and Judah. When we are born again we join in that covenant and are no longer Gentiles.

Ephesians lays this out.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/24/15

Samuel, Ephesians says no such thing. No longer Jew or Gentile but "one new man" ......a totally third entity is what Ephesians AND Galatians AND Colossians And Philippians tell us. The NEW MAN is no longer after the flesh. The FLESH would be considered Jew or Gentile. The NEW MAN is NEITHER.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/15


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace,

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Neither of these verses say the New Man is created after Israel or Judiasm, and no verse says Israel or a Jew was CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUE HOLINESS. God is neither Israel or a Jew. The New man or new creature is no longer part of this world or world system. BEHOLD ALL THINGS BECOME NEW. And everyone who is Born Of God knows this truth. It's one of the very first principles God reveals to us after we are saved.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/15


True Kathr. Good point.

Trav remember the Prophet Jonah and his mission?

Explain about why the Hebrew prophet was preaching to Gentiles.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/25/15


Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Also see Acts 9:15 Trav. And again Galatians re Abraham, and ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH.
The "Everlasting" COVENANT, from before the foundation of the world is not RENEWED and made over in Hebrews 8:8 Trav. The New covenant did replace the Old with Israel, but it did not replace or suppass the EVERLASTING COVENANT ROOTED IN ABRAHAM . Jesus Christ was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to take away sin established in Genesis and continues on to today.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/15




True Trav the New Covenant is made with Israel and Judah.

Which is why the called out people of GOD are now part of Israel and Judah. When we are born again we join in that covenant and are no longer Gentiles.

Ephesians lays this out.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/24/15


...or is it the New Covenant, Christ made with us?
...Hebrews to give you that answer.
---David on 7/11/15

David, you posted "made with us" above?
The covenant is specific. Although not honored/addressed among the doctrines of men in ignorance or fear.
The word "covenant" is found in 272 verses and is always specific. As it should be. A covenant is a serious life affecting commitment/ promise.
It is better to embrace a scriptural fact and build with it than ignore and build something unsupported scripturally.

Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 7/23/15


Once saved always saved applies to the truly saved.
Be honest, If you don't know you are saved, maybe you're not.
Some teach salvation comes by believing Jesus is the Son of God, walking an aisle, following Jesus, praying the sinners prayer, asking Jesus into your heart or other rituals.
The proof of your salvation isn't how good you live, or promises made to Israel, or what you do or don't do, say or don't say
The gospel of Christ, is the preaching of the cross. Christ did everything necessary to save men through his death burial and resurrection. ( Rom 6:23)
I know I am saved because Christ died for my sins, rose from the dead, and offers salvation freely to all who believe in him. (Eph 1:13, Rom 3:22).
---mishael_e on 7/23/15


1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is Born of God Doth not commit sin: For his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he Born of God,
---RichardC on 7/22/15


1John 5:2,3
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Michaele a person who is combating his temptations daily will not be lost. But a person who gives in to his temptations and lives in sin is not saved.

Christians as Paul in Romans 13:8-10 points out do right. GOD fearing Christians don't live in sin. Matthew 25 speaks of people who claim to be Christians but aren't

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/21/15




The basis of our salvation is by faith in Christs full payment for sins (Eph 2:8, Rom 3:22)
Therefore, IF WE ARE SAVED by grace and then determine we can lose our justified status simply by not acting obediently or following after righteousness then we are in essence rejecting the cross, ignoring what Christ came to do. We are also denying our present position in our crucified flesh combating its temptations daily.
As Paul told the Galatians, Christ is become of no effect unto you. You would have just as much success trying to save yourself without the cross, as you would trying to stay saved without the grace of God operating on your behalf.
---michael_e on 7/11/15


Once saved always saved is a gospel that is destroying souls. Nowhere in scripture is there a mention of OSAS. I believed I could live the way I wanted and confess my sins before I died and be ok. Hebrews 10:26-31 say otherwise. G-d is patient and does give us grace, but I took it as a license to do as I wish under the false idea that OSAS was a true and that I could always turn to Christ and repent regardless of how I lived. I'm about 98% certain I have lost my salvation at this point of life with no chance of getting it back.
---Michael on 7/11/15


David, Galatians 2:21 could not possibly be talking about the New Covenant. The whole of Galatians is about the OLD Covenant.--kathr4453 on 7/11/15

Kathryn
Exactly!
When Paul teaches "Works" in the negative, as in (Galatians 2:21), he is referring to the works of the Law of Moses.

But when Paul teaches "Works" in the positive, as in (Romans 2:5-7), he is referring to the Law of Christ.
Our "Works" according to the Law of Christ is the Works by which we will be judged.

If I am wrong, what "Works" do you believe we will be judged by according to (1 Peter 1:17)?
---David on 7/11/15


//The ONLY way one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees is to have the Righteousness of Christ,...//

I disagree that that is the ONLY way.---------------
---Rod4Him on 7/10/15

Rod, when you emphasized "ONLY" re, the Righteousness of Christ, you seemed to imply there was another way????????? I would agree whether good Pharisees or bad, no self righteousness is a way. It's either self Righteousness or Christ righteousness. So my question is....what other way? The ONLY WAY to heaven is to have the righteousness of Christ, as Paul stated who was a Righteous Pharisee.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/15


//The ONLY way one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees is to have the Righteousness of Christ..//

I must not have communicated very well. You seem to think the Phariesees were extremely "righteous? I don't, their hearts were not right.

I said, "I agree with you in principle,..." that principle being that "I count all things but loss, but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord."
---Rod4Him on 7/11/15


David, Galatians 2:21 could not possibly be talking about the New Covenant. The whole of Galatians is about the OLD Covenant verses GRACE. Galatians 2:20 and 21 go together as one thought. Paul would not conclude in verse 21 the KEEPING of the New Covenant voids Christ Crucified. The LAW that was changed under the NEW is that WE are being KEPT. Hebrews 13:20-21 make this perfectly clear.......the conclusion of ALL of Hebrews, AND the conclusion of the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/15


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Galatians 2:21, if righteousness comes by keeping the law Christ died in vain.--kathr453

Kathryn
And I agree, but what "Law" is Paul talking about in this passage? Is it the old covenant, God made with Moses, or is it the New Covenant, Christ made with us?
I hope you will allow Hebrews to give you that answer.

(Hebrews 7:11-12)
If therefore perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law
---David on 7/11/15


Some very good points made Kathr and aservent about what our righteousness is and that it is only from JESUS.

"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His."{Desire of Ages, page 25}

Michael a person who lives in sin is not Born Again. Romans 6. You can say it different ways. But a person who does not live in obedience to GOD doesn't belong to GOD. Some refer to this as Lordship salvation.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/11/15


Rod4him, let me word another way. All self effort whether good or bad is filthy rags to God. Even if the Pharisees were perfect in All their thought and action, they would still fall short of the glory of God. Not all scribes and Pharisees were bad. Paul was a Pharisee, and claimed to be blameless YET still acknowledges that it is but DUNG compared to the righteousness of Christ. Read his testimony AND the Gospel in Philippians 3.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/15


Now the question is, Who is right? Is it John and Peter . . .
---David on 7/10/15


Both.

One who "practices" righteousness is similar to a Dr. who practices, or an Atty who practices. They are trying to do the correct thing, but sometimes fail. Failure does not negate the orientation of their hearts.

Actual righteousness comes from God's Judicial process.

In Pt 1:17 The extent and orientation of one's faith can be accurately judged by the type, quality, and application of one's work
---aservant on 7/10/15


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Rod, point 2, when Jesus was talking about the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees, He was talking about the righteousness of the Law. Paul in Philippians 3 was not ashamed to be a Pharisee. You inject something in that verse Jesus did not say....otherwise Jesus would have said, "unless you exceed the hypocrisy of the Pharisees", which He did not say. The law was outward righteousness, not inward. The law had/ has no power to change our sin nature, ONLY Jesus Christ IN YOU can.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/15


Rod, last point. Let me ask you......do you think ANYONE can enter the Kingdom of Heaven based on his own righteousness? Galatians 2:21 says, for if righteousness comes by keeping the law Christ died in vain. We enter heaven solely on the Righteousness of Christ. OT saints who were saved, we saved because of their faith in the coming redeemer, not on the Law of Moses. The Law was added for SIN TO ABOUND, not so one could work their way into heaven. Abraham long before the Law was justified BY FAITH. As was Abel, all confessing they were SINNERS, not self righteous.
---kathr453 on 7/10/15


Knowing how we obtain salvation is key to understanding whether we can lose our salvation.
Christ died on the cross for our sins, Why would we think once we are saved, we can live lives without Christ?
Paul teaches it's not by our works of righteousness we are saved. If it were by our works Christ died in vain! It follows that if we are not saved by works of righteousness then we can not lose our salvation because of a lack of them.
If we are saved by grace and then determine that we can lose our justified status simply by not acting obediently or following after righteousness then we are rejecting the cross. Understanding what Christ did on the cross for you is the key to changing your life for eternity.
---michael_e on 7/10/15


//The ONLY way one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees is to have the Righteousness of Christ,...//

I disagree that that is the ONLY way. I agree with you in principle, however, the Pharisees were hypocrites. "Do what they say (when they quote Moses), not what they do."

I think you give the Pharisees WAY too much credit.
---Rod4Him on 7/10/15


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On the last points by Kathyr, David, Rita and Aservent I can say I agree with all that you wrote.

When a person is born again their new nature is live in love. Like children and new born babies they are not immediately good at it.

But like Proverbs 24:16 says the fall down and rise up again. The wicked stay there.

In Romans 6 Paul shows Christians are supposed to live for and follow Jesus. Those who don't are not saved. They are hypocrites and will be rejected in the Judgement Matthew 25.

My older sister passed away recently. I went to her house and helped her many times. Not for pay but for love. We work for GOD because of love. Any other reason is doomed.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/10/15


Samuel "But I have met and dealt with people who live in sin and hatred and say they are osas. An Adulterer who left his wife and moved in with another women. These I have a problem with."

I absolutely agree (some of these are in pulpits wearing clerical collars on Sundays).

"So a person who is saved will still sin time to time. But they repent and turn from their sin." Yes, those who will not do that are mocking God and must not, seriously, believe that our Creator is not just a God of love but can also displays wrath.
---Rita_H on 7/10/15


Righteousness is not a matter of good behavior,...James_L on 7/9/15

James
If doing what the devil wants us to do makes us unrighteous, wouldn't doing what God wants us to do make us righteous? John & Peter seemed to think so.

(1 John 3:7 & 10) He that does righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.
(1 Peter 1:17) And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each ones work..


Now the question is, Who is right? Is it John and Peter, two of the Lords 12 disciples, taught by the Son of God? Or is it those who teach what you believe? And remember, I have shown you Paul also disagrees with you (Romans 2:5-6).

Your choice.
---David on 7/10/15


The ONLY way one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees is to have the Righteousness of Christ, for His righteousness alone exceeds all human self righteousness and works. That is why Jesus was made sin for us, so that we can have THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. there is no other righteousness acceptable to God. WhenGod sees you IN CHRIST, He sees the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/15


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First John deals with those who say they are saved. But who live in sin. You cannot live in sin and hatred and be saved.

I have no problem with those who Love God and Love their neighbor and say they are osas. That is their doctrine.

But I have met and dealt with people who live in sin and hatred and say they are osas. That included a Klan member. An Adulterer who left his wife and moved in with another women. These I have a problem with.

So a person who is saved will still sin time to time. But they repent and turn from their sin.

They don't like one preacher said never have to repent of anything.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15


To the "No works" folks Do you believe God will save the righteous? If you do, I'm curious to know what makes you righteous and the unsaved, unrighteous?
---David on 7/9/15


No man can be righteous by deeds. All have sinned and broken the Law. The saved are righteous because God made a Judicial swap: Upon Jesus was put all the sin of mankind. Upon Spirit inhabited Christians was put the righteousness of Jesus.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 3:22, Rom 5:19, Rom 8:4, Rom 10:3-4, Phi 3:9
---aservant on 7/9/15


Please tell me how I can fullfill Matthew 5:20. and I will show you how I am righteous--Scott1 on 7/9/15

(Matthew 5:20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Scott
Jesus answered your question in (Matthew 23:2-3)
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.

In other words, don't be a hypocrite like the Pharisees.
Now will you answer my question?
---David on 7/9/15


Salvation: Armenianists don't know if a person can lose it, Methodists say that it's possible, Lutherans tie it to faith in Christ (that can be rejected), and Calvinists believe in eternal security. There are some who believe that one only has to assent to the Lord's work, which is not the same as trusting in Him, ascentia vs. fiducia.*1.
James_L: Since I'm not making an argument for works-righteousness, it would be helpful if you would specifically address what you disagree with in my statement 7/8. Also, what are your belief(s): antinomianism, universalism, that a Christian is not the Lord's servant, or?
*1 Romans 5:20-6:23, Ephesians 2:10, James 1:22-27, 2:14-26 (true faith), 1John 2:3-6.
---Glenn on 7/9/15


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Everyone here on this website knows what JamesL is saying.

You all know people who have questions about their OWN Salvation.

I'll beat you even have CHILDREN who came to you asking if they were truly Saved or not?

The RCC states Baptism is evidence of being Saved.
When sin occurs the RCC has available as commanded by God the Sacrament of Confession.
Graces are given at confession to help prevent the sin again.
Works as the Letter of James states is a method of EXERCISING YOUR FAITH.

NO ONE and I know no one here has kept from failing from Grace by going to Church and reading the Bible ALONE!
LIKE marriage you WORK ON IT. So as the Bride of Christ.
Is Jesus asking to much of you to WORK on the Marriage?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/9/15


JamesL, the problem with your last comment is this......NEVER WAS SAVED. Therefore the one who was never saved cannot lose salvation. Therefore if one is saved, he will always be saved. God knows who is sincere and who is not. Those making a false profession then fall away were NEVER SAVED. Therefore cannot be categorized with the saved.

Just because YOU may have made a false profession at one time, and then got it right, should in no way place judgement on others or God for that matter.
There are MANY who are not Calvinists who believe in OSAS. Don't judge others by a false religion.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/15


Have I done enough to PROVE God loves me/////

What kind of Gospel is this? The "I " here is WORKS. I can do NOTHING to earn God's love and forgivness. Jesus paid it ALL. God sees me IN CHRIST. And those who,are IN CHRIST are COMPLETE IN HIM. When I receive Jesus Christ, I an CRUCIFIED with Christ, baptized into His death and raised a new creature IN CHRIST. I am the Baptized into His Body. Once IN CHRIST I am SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/15


It leads to a vicious cycle of doubt and uncertainty. Such as....

Have I done enough to prove God loves me?

Their faith is hanging on their works, always looking for "fruit"---James_L on 7/8/15

Excellence points.


God is God of Order, not confusion.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/9/15


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David, Samuel, and James,

1. Matthew 10:22 in context is dealing with persecution.

2. 3 John is dealing with a lack of support among the brothers for each other.

3. John 12:32 in context is dealing with different races of people coming to Jesus.
In verse 32, all refers to all kinds of people or men. See verse 20 and 40 please read entire chapter.

4. God by his grace saved me and when he did I believed, prayed, and was baptized see John 6:37-45 and
Romans 9:9-23.

5. Especially for you James see John 6:37-45.
---john9346 on 7/9/15


CCC1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the EFFECTS of the SACRAMENTS of Penance. What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/9/15


David, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. The righteousness of God is by [the] faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe, there is no difference." However those "ignorant of God's righteousness, [are] going about to establish their own righteousness, [and] have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Jesus was made to be sin, so that the believer, could be made the righteousness of God in Him.
---josef on 7/9/15


/To the "No works" folks\
Funny how people can label others to hold onto certain beliefs, whether justified or not.
Labeling is not judgment of one's heart.
/Do you believe God will save the righteous?\
This is rhetorical, but yes, the Bible says so.
/what makes you righteous and the unsaved, unrighteous?\-David on 7/9/15
The only thing that makes one righteous is the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. All else is just evidence of that finished work.
It is God that does the good work through those that believe. We are the clay, being formed to the image of His Son. Surrender, stop trying in the flesh, and let the Spirit show an unbelieving world the works God has prepared for you.
---micha9344 on 7/9/15


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Kathr...
yes, seriously. The vast majority of people I've met who designate OSAS do espouse the Calvinist tenet of Perseverance of the Saints.

Even you have said f a man should fall into worldliness unto death, you have stated before that he was never saved.

Faith does not inevitability lead to works, we are made righteous APART from works



David,
Romans 4:4-5
Righteousness is not a matter of good behavior, it is a matter of being healed of the disease called sin. Regenerated. Cleansed. Washed. Forever perfected. Apart from works.

This would be good discussion in a separate thread
---James_L on 7/9/15


/Do you believe God will save the righteous?/
Yes

/If you do, I'm curious to know what makes you righteous and the unsaved, unrighteous?/

Please tell me how I can fullfill Matthew 5:20. and I will show you how I am righteous.

See Matthew 7:21-23 it is not our action that makes us righteous but that God knows us.
---Scott1 on 7/9/15


To the "No works" folks
Do you believe God will save the righteous? If you do, I'm curious to know what makes you righteous and the unsaved, unrighteous?
---David on 7/9/15


Who said anything about selling sacraments? Sacraments are not the same as indulgences. And there is no such thing as either in scripture. So I guess if both are man made, they can do what they want with them.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/15


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Dear Nicole I haven't spoken with hatred. But have stated facts.

Catholic Encylopedia,New Advent. Indulgences.

"Hence the pope, as supreme head of the Church on earth, can grant all kinds of indulgences to any and all of the faithful, and he alone can grant plenary indulgences. The power of the bishop, previously unrestricted, was limited by Innocent III (1215) to the granting of one year's indulgence at the dedication of a church and of forty days on other occasions. Leo XIII (1899) authorized the archbishops of South America to grant eighty days (Acta S. Sedis, XXXI, 758). Pius X (28 August, 1903) allowed cardinals in their titular churches..."

Have you googled Popes or the Church and indulgences?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/15


Sorry Samuel, just because Glenn agrees with you doesn't mean it is true.
He named Popes, but no written statement stating to whom and when these Popes sold Sacraments.

You wouldn't you like it if I made a firm statement that you told people if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior you would give them $10,000. In which you brought 5 people to the Lord in this manner.

Do you both think I believe you are so immature as to believe you can buy Graces?

You don't believe it. You just hate the RCC and WANT to believe lies.

Shame on you both.
You CAN'T BUY JESUS
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/8/15


Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrinal misnomer, because it is a deceptive doctrine of works.

It would be more honest to call it...

Once SERVING Always SERVING.

The perverted doctrine starts with God changing a man's will (heart)

Then a man chooses to serve God.

So if the man stops WORKING, they claim God never changed his heart

Their faith is hanging on their works, always looking for "fruit"
---James_L on 7/8/15

Seriously JamesL??? That might be the doctrine of Calvinism, but not the Gospel of Salvation. If I can't BELIEVE IN THE PROMISES OF GOD....what's left? Our salvation is based on the finished works of Christ, not our own.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/15


Thank you Glenn when the Popes do it is is not just a few priests.

James that depends on the OSAS group. Some teach that once a person was saved even if their works stop they are still saved.

Others say no works no relationship. Like a husband who leaves his wife and moves in with his mistress. Then cuts off all support to the wife. Because of adultery that marriage is over.

While I don't believe OSAS at all. I respect the second group. Because it is close to what I read in the Bible.

Those who don't love GOD and their Neighbor are not saved. IJohn. 2, 3, 4

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/8/15


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Glenn just made the assertion I warned against.

It leads to a vicious cycle of doubt and uncertainty. Such as....

Have I done enough to prove God loves me?

I think I'm pretty good

Is my behavior good enough to call myself righteous?

I can't know

Does failure mean God never chose me?

Where is He?

Do I really have eternal life if I act like this?

I keep trying and trying, yet failing and failing


Pray for those folks
---James_L on 7/8/15


of "a few priest" would be Popes Julius II and Leo X. The C.C.C. doesn't address its own long and sordid history of simony. ---Glenn

CCC doesn't because it isn't ALLOWED. The CCC states OUR BELIEFS.

Just because I sell you Government property doesn't mean the Government is going to let you take possession.
No matter WHAT BILL OF SALE you have on you.
It's belongs to the Government and it isn't for sale. So as the Sacraments. GOD gives the Graces, not a Priest.---Nicole_Lacey

What part of the above statement that doesn't explain what Popes or Priest can't do? They are not God.

If Obama sold you the U.S. NAVY and you had a bill of sale do you think you OWN the U.S. NAVY?
No.
You can't SALE GRACES.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/8/15


Cluny: A person who puts their confidence in the Lord, (and in His efficacious substitutionary death) to save them is a new creation. While Simul Justus et peccator is true for Christians, someone who remains uninfluenced by the Holy Spirit is not "once saved" *1. As it is God who saves us, it must be He who preserves us *2.
Nicole_Lacey 7/6, the principle(s) of "a few priest" would be Popes Julius II and Leo X. The C.C.C. doesn't address its own long and sordid history of simony.
*1 Matthew 7:21, Romans 1:18-32, 1Corinthians 5:11-13, 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5-6, Colossians 3:5-6, Titus 3:2-8, 1Peter 4:1-4, 1John 2:19.
*2 John 3:14-21, 10:27-30, Romans 8:1-39, 11:29, Titus 3:5-7.
---Glenn on 7/8/15


Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrinal misnomer, because it is a deceptive doctrine of works.

It would be more honest to call it...

Once SERVING Always SERVING.

The perverted doctrine starts with God changing a man's will (heart)

Then a man chooses to serve God.

So if the man stops WORKING, they claim God never changed his heart

Their faith is hanging on their works, always looking for "fruit"
---James_L on 7/8/15


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Samuel, yes I know about the original sources. They are wrong as well.
Just because someone else picks up your error it doesn't mean it is true. It is called Rumors.

Just go the CCC.

Please pick a source you believe is correct.
Tell me the source so I can explain the error.

You can NOT sell Sacraments.
The RCC HAS NEVER SOLD THEM.
It doesn't WORK that way.
God isn't stupid.

Just because I sell you Government property doesn't mean the Government is going to let you take possession.
No matter WHAT BILL OF SALE you have on you.
It's belongs to the Government and it isn't for sale.

So as the Sacraments. GOD gives the Graces, not a Priest.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/7/15


Cluny, the answer is YES....IF they become a new creature In Christ, having been baptized into His death and raised up a New Creature having the OLD MAN crucified with Christ, where the body of sin is done away in Christ.

We are saved from SIN are we not. And who can save us from SIN, but God alone. We cannot save ourselves from sin. If we could, there would have been no need for Jesus death and resurrection. His resurrection, and our resurrection to a new life with Him assures us it only needs to be done once. We are saved because we have become a NEW CREATURE. Now can the NEW CREATURE die again and again , crucified again and again...not according to Hebrews 6.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/15


Thank you Kathyr


Wikipedia has a good article on this.

By the papal bull Indulgentiarum doctrina of 1 January 1967, Pope Paul VI, responding to suggestions made at the Second Vatican Council, substantially revised the practical application of the traditional doctrine.

Nicole the article gives the source material from Catholic sources so you can check with the original sources.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/7/15


2. How did the practice of dispensing indulgences begin?

The first known use of plenary indulgences was in 1095 when Pope Urban II remitted all penance of persons who participated in the crusades and who confessed their sins. Later, the indulgences were also offered to those who couldn't go on the Crusades but offered cash contributions to the effort instead. In the early 1200s, the Church began claiming that it had a "treasury" of indulgences (consisting of the merits of Christ and the saints) that it could dispense in ways that promoted the Church and its mission. In a decretal issued in 1343, Pope Clement VI declared, "The merits of Christ are a treasure of indulgences."
---kathr4453 on 7/7/15


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"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) In oneness with God's Spirit, we are changed to become like Him >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, our scriptural reason for "boldness in the day of judgment" includes how "as He is, so are we in this world."

So, "if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (in Hebrews 12:8) So, Cluny, if ones are not being corrected into Christ's image, then once saved, always saved does not apply to them.
---Bill on 7/6/15


Centuries ago, the Catholic church was selling indulgences and religious artifacts for money,causing folks to believe they needed to be saved all over again with each communion.--George on 7/5/15

You are confused. Not the RCC, but a few Priest in the Catholic Church tried to sell indulgences which is NOT ALLOWED by the RCC.

That's like saying if one Pastor in the Baptist Church claims it is okay to drink Alcohol.
Does that mean the Southern Baptist Churches agrees with that one Pastor? NO.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/6/15


John
In (Matthew 10:22) Jesus says he will save those who endure to the end. How did you get saved, before the end?
(Matthew 10:22)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.


Does God save us or do we save ourselves? ---john9346 on 7/5/15
John
When do you claim you were saved? Was it after you said a prayer? Was it after you were baptized? Was it after you believed?
If it was after you did one of these, in your very testimony, aren't you the one who makes the claim you saved yourself by what you did?
---David on 7/6/15


In circles that I am familiar with, one the main reasons OSAS was taught and one of the first statements of Faith taught was to give that "warm fuzzy feeling" of comfort because it didn't come naturally.

In I John in 5:13 he seems to want to give comfort by saying, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Much of scripture is written to give "comfort."

One could say, Does taking the Eucharist apply to people of minority affectional orientations?

...just saying, ...the question seems to imply negatively on those that believe OSAS.

Yes or no can't be proved.
---Rod4Him on 7/6/15


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Yes John we are.

Are you aware of:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Saul was loved and chosen by GOD. But then he choose to do evil and was no longer loved by GOD.

Who chose for him to be lost? Was it GOD? Or did Saul choose to remove himself from GOD?

3John 1:9-11
I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
...Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/6/15


Cluny, it does not apply to me at all because I am a predestined reprobate.
---learner2 on 7/5/15


\\No, they get unsaved when become perverse..
---learner2 on 7/4/15\\

So, OSAS applies to you, but not necessarily to everybody.

Is that what you're saying, learner2?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/15


Steveng and David,

You both state that once saved always saved is false, but I am wondering if the both of you are aware of the following:

1. Romans 8:35-39.

2. John 6:37-45.

3. John 10:27-30

The question really is this does God save us or do we save ourselves?
---john9346 on 7/5/15


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Cluny Steveng good points.

Some who believe osas live for Jesus all the time. They love GOD AND LOVE their neighbors.

But others think they have a right to live in sin.

We are to live for GOD and show love to others. Those who don't love GOD or love others are not saved.

1John 2:9,10
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

On Christ the solid rock I stand.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/5/15


Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this,I want to remind you that the Lord delivered His people out of Egypt,but later destroyed those who did not believe. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure to the end,shall be saved. Also read the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:3-52. We are told in many places after we are saved we are to go and sin no more. Don't ever be deceived for Jesus told us be holy as I am holy. If we love God with all our heart,mind,strength,and soul we want to please God and will fight temptation. Jesus was tempted in like manner as we are yet without sin. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/5/15


Nicole, I'm trying to avoid using the H word or G word, because it will be blocked by the censor bot.

But to ask a related question, does OSAS apply to Christians in marriages Jesus condemned as adulterous?

To put it another way, does OSAS automatically forgive some sins and not others?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/15


No doubt there is truth to that, but in addition it could also be that people were taught it, therefore they believe it, regardless of feelings. It may also be true that people who don't believe in "OSAS" have affectional orientations. Actually, I would think that OSAS thinkers would tend to have anti-affectional orientations. Am I using your word right?? :-)

affectional...interesting word.
---Rod4Him on 7/5/15


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Jesus saves, and the work He starts, He completes.
---josef on 7/5/15


"once saved, always saved" is a false gospel. Many warnings are mentioned in the bible about backsliding falling away.

Jeremiah 3:12 (are christians not part of Israel?)
Hebrews 2:1-3

And many will fall away from the faith (one must have faith to begin with in order to fall away, eh?) for two reasons.

God's love is not partial to anyone.

John 3:16 (the WHOLE world, all of his creation)

Luke 6:27
Luke 6:35

Today's christians, save a few, are so hypocritical that they disobey God's commands. If God is kind to the ungrateful and the evil then should christians?

Matthew 5:44
Romans 12:19-21
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
---Steveng on 7/5/15


"Once saved always saved", is an indefensible and illogical teaching.
---David on 7/5/15


Eph 2:8 (ERV) . . . you have been saved by grace . . . it was a gift from God.

Rom 11:29 (EMTV) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Scripture says God never retrieves or revokes His gift of salvation.
---aservant on 7/5/15


Centuries ago, the Catholic church was selling indulgences and religious artifacts for money,causing folks to believe they needed to be saved all over again with each communion.
The protestant church adopted the once saved always saved doctrine to help people understand they did not need to buy into this money making scheme to be saved over and over again.
However reference to Revelation 3:5 indicates a backslider may actually go so far by his own free choice so as to lose his salvation at some point
---George on 7/5/15


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Sorry Cluny, but I don't understand your question.

Are you saying people who are less active or on strict routines believe this notion of 'One Saved always saved"?

Because they feel they will not be in harms away due to keeping the same routine in life?
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/15


Cluny
"Once saved always saved", is an indefensible and illogical teaching. And for this reason, the only right answer, for those who believe it, is yes!

But that's not the answer you will receive, so prepare yourself to be taken into the "Twilight Zone".
---David on 7/5/15


No, they get unsaved when become perverse..
---learner2 on 7/4/15


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