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Literally Or By Symbols

Read John 6:34-69.

Why are all other parts of the Bible to be interpreted literally (i.e. Jesus walking on water) but this passage is always interpreted in symbols?

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 7/28/15
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Thanks to Brendan for this topic.

I would like to encourage all to allow Jesus to define his own words.


John6:63 is symbolic not litteral "
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

May Yahweh guide to his truth,

John
---john9346 on 8/9/15


Nicole, I'm well aware of the Aristotelian metaphysic that provide the framework of "substance" and "accidents" in this context.

However, Orthodoxy has never committed herself to applying this to the Eucharist, so I will not, either.

For us, the change in the bread and wine are accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/15


Nicole_Lacey:

To use another analogy: a book (or contract, or money) is a document written on paper. By your terminology, the "substance" is the legal text, while the "accident" is paper and ink. The substance is extremely important (in fact, the whole reason we buy books). Nevertheless, the accidents are still important. The paper and the text are on two completely different levels of reality. If you're freezing to death, burning a book will provide just as much heat as burning blank paper (same accidents), while a check written on paper is just as valid as one written on cardboard (same substance).
---StrongAxe on 8/10/15


I used accident's technical meaning. I didn't know the philosophical meaning.

Accident(philosophy) A quality or attribute in distinction from the substance, as sweetness, softness.

I was using hot as the scientific meaning.

transubstantiation (in Roman Catholic dogma) The doctrine holding that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus.

Accident would be more symbolic meaning like most Protestants hold. In that vein I would accept that mystically and Spiritually it is the Body and blood of Jesus. But not physically.

The true substance of the bread is flour and other ingredients.

Actually eating is shown by following in our actions and thoughts Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/15


No Samuel, thats why Monk didn't say the word as he said.

Not heat, but hot. Heat is kinda like a verb as in action.

Hot or cold can not live on it's own.

You can't have a cup of hot or cold.
Do you understand?

You can have a cup of hot tea or cold tea.

The tea has to be the substance and cold or hot is it's accident.

Look up the word accident in philosophy terms.

Not accident like a car wreck.

So Bread and Wine is the accident and Jesus is the TRUE SUBSTANCE.

Just as He promised
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/9/15




"Are you saying Jesus 'Flesh' is of no avail?"

Ruben, what did Jesus say? how did he answer your question in verse 63?

Just like those present you are asking the same question they did and what did Jesus answer them in verse 63??

"And about the Cannibalism, where does Jesus retracted and says he is not talking about eating hie flesh?"
Again, verse 63.

Also, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius, and Augusteen did not teach and believe these passages John 6:51-65 to be litteral.
---john9346 on 8/9/15


Nicole said, "Samuel, Strongaxe, Cluny and Monk the word exactly you are looking for is called 'ACCIDENT'."

I knew that. I was trying to stay away from "substance" and "accidents" else someone else jumps down my throat.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 8/9/15


Ruben, 61-65 is Jesus responding my friend to the Jews and his disciples inquiry to his saying.

This was why he said what he said in verse 63 because all present knew the Torah forbid Cannibalism.
---john9346 on 8/7/15

John9346,

63 "It is the spirit that gives life, the FLESH IS OF NO AVAIL, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Are you saying Jesus 'Flesh' is of no avail?

Jesus said "the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh" (John 6:51).

Has he contradicted himself?

And about the Cannibalism, where does Jesus retracted and says he is not talking about eating hie flesh?
---Ruben on 8/9/15


Most Denominational churches teach many truths. Most have the basic's correct.

It is the details where there are problems. I can call Christians of other denominations and those here my brothers and sisters in Christ. We may not agree but most here look to and want to follow Jesus. Many people will be in heaven even though they didn't know all the correct points.

Because we are saved by grace through faith not by correct doctrine.

Matt.6v55

"If symbolic why did he let his disciples walk away?"
Ruben

They didn't want to listen or put this man above them. Some also thought was real not symbolic.

Nicole cold is the absence of heat. Not an accident. Wrong word.

Thank you john9346
---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/15


Steveng:

You wrote: Denominational "churches" lead people away from the truth.

While it is certainly true that many denominations teach incorrect things (and some teach damnably incorrect things), most people that are in churches believe what they believe, whether or not their church teaches that. The main places that have monolithic thinking are cults.

In my life, I have only encountered a handful of people who have had a visible, "saintly glow", which prompted early artists to draw saints with halos around their heads. One of those people was a elderly Jehovah's Witness man.
---StrongAxe on 8/8/15




'Will Christ recognize christianity upon his return?'
He won't have to wait until then - He can see what is going on now.
---Rita_H on 8/8/15


StrongAxe wrote: Once again, you judge people with a wide brush..."

Denominational "churches" lead people away from the truth. Satan has had over 2,000 years to divide christiandom up into over 60,000 denominations. Which denomination teaches the truth with each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible? Is Christ divided? Will Christ recognize christianity upon his return?
---Steveng on 8/7/15


Cant Jesus define his own words??---john
YES! Because Jesus can do anything INCLUDING defining His own Words.

How many times does Jesus have to SAY Truly, Truly?

Note He said My Father gives you bread DOWN from Heaven not Moses. V32 Jesus came DOWN from Heaven.

Exodus 16:14 When the dew evaporated, there on the surface of the desert were fine flakes like hoarfrost on the ground.

The Manna appears on the ground for the Israelites to PICK UP to eat.

Samuel, Strongaxe, Cluny and Monk the word exactly you are looking for is called 'ACCIDENT'.

Cold is an accident. It isn't a substance itself

The soup is cold

Jesus CHOSE to make Bread and Wine HIS ACCIDENTS.
Because HE is the SUBSTANCE!
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/8/15


Again, the center of the topic is John 6:34-69.

When you allow the Scripture to interpret themselves, Peter took litteral coins from a fish.

The same as when you allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves, you allow Jesus to tell you what he meant in verses 53-57 verse 63, "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

Cant Jesus define his own words??
---john9346 on 8/7/15


Cluny:

You said: According to physical senses and lab analysis, the Bible is paper and ink--but I'm sure we all here believe it's more than that.

While this is true, one could never argue that the printed bible in your hands ceases to be paper and ink. Regardless of any additional properties it has on higher levels, it still remains paper and ink, whose properties in those regards can be measured. Regardless of whether bread and wine also become the Body and Blood of Christ, they nevertheless also remain bread and wine that can legally consumed. Otherwise, they would violate Pauls (and Moses's) commands to "refrain from blood".
---StrongAxe on 8/7/15


"They did not walk away only because of v61-65."

Ruben, 61-65 is Jesus responding my friend to the Jews and his disciples inquiry to his saying.

This was why he said what he said in verse 63 because all present knew the Torah forbid Cannibalism.
---john9346 on 8/7/15


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\\Exactly. It "is" flesh and blood, but it looks like bread and wine.\\

Something we learn from the sciences is that there are realities beyond what we can see, touch, smell, hear, taste, and quantify in the lab.

According to physical senses and lab analysis, the Bible is paper and ink--but I'm sure we all here believe it's more than that.

The same applies to the Eucharist.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/7/15


Strongaxe said, "Exactly. It 'is' flesh and blood, but it looks like bread and wine. Thus, 'is' means something different here than it does in most normal contexts."

God is God, yet you cannot see, touch, taste, feel smell or measure Him, yet He exists. The "is" is the same "is" you would use for a baseball or air. It means the same thing. Just because you cannot "see" flesh and blood doesn't make it any less so.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 8/7/15


the topic is not about a fish.---john9346

Look at the top of the blog, it is talking about interpreting passage literally or not.
In the bible there is a passage of Jesus telling Peter to get coins from a FISH to pay the temple taxes for Him and Peter. Matthew 17:27.
Jesus is so clear He tell Peter the coins will be in the first fish Peter catches.

Please answer the question. Did Peter get coins literally from a fish or not?

Micha, I don't know what is your problem, but you are bored. Jerry is the one who claims I was insulting him when he started with me.
I think you just like to be MESSES.

Excuse me Strongaxe, I was explaining to Micha about our disagreement because she or he just like to start fights.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/7/15


"V64 speaks about who would betray Him. This verse is speaking about Judas."

Nicole, verse 70 and 71 speaks of Judas.

"Again, V64 doesn't apply to the ones who left in V66."
Well its obvious you are not paying attention to verses 60, 61, and 66 clearly state "His Disciples."

"V61 Was the time for Jesus to clarify Himself."
Yes you are correct and that clarification includes verse 63 then stops at verse 65.

"What about the Fish? Answer?"

What about the fish? the topic is not about a fish.
---john9346 on 8/7/15


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Samuelbb7 * Ruben why did you tell a lie?

Did not say you did, please!!

What I did say is, If you believe that verses 52-55 Jesus is speaking symbolic, then when Jesus said " This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world? Is this also symbolic??




Samuelbb7 * John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is the Spiritual meaning and the word of GOD which is both the Bible and Jesus. That are life.

So were the words Jesus said:

" My flesh is Food indeed and My Blood is drink indeed" v55

If symbolic why did he let his disciples walk away?
---Ruben on 8/7/15


So Jesus is the Bread in a Spiritual sense. Which is what many believe and teach.

Good points Strong Ax.

Jesus is both the Sacrifice and our High Priest. The one who offers the Sacrifice.

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

We go directly to our High Priest for forgiveness.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/7/15


Monk_Brendan:

You said: In this case, the Body and Blood are Mystically veiled under the appearance of bread and wine. The Body and Blood are there! You just can't see it.

Exactly. It "is" flesh and blood, but it looks like bread and wine. Thus, "is" means something different here than it does in most normal contexts. Jesus "is" the vine. He is not a plant in a biological sense, but all others branch out from him, so he "is" a vine in a real sense, just not a physical sense.
---StrongAxe on 8/6/15


Yes John, I am paying attention and see your errors

The verses before 66 states of Jesus knowing who didn't believe His Words that His Body and Blood is true food and drink.
V64 speaks about who would betray Him. This verse is speaking about Judas.

My friend, Judas was part of the 12 WHO DIDN'T LEAVE.

Again, V64 doesn't apply to the ones who left in V66.

They DID NOT LEAVE OVER A SYMBOL.
V61 Was the time for Jesus to clarify Himself.
He didn't because they were grumbling correctly on hearing Jesus' Words.

They were there and you were not. They heard Jesus and UNDERSTOOD He was speaking Literally. So that's why in V66 as they left Jesus.
Read the Bible in order.

What about the Fish? Answer?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/6/15


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Strongaxe said, "...I have yet to see ANY church where bread and wine are turned into LITERAL flesh and blood. All physical evidence shows that they are still PHYSICALLY bread and wine. "

I will admit that the Body and Blood still look like bread and wine, and that the fussiest lab analysis will only give you the results of bread and wine. But you must remember that we are dealing with God here, and He can do anything He wants.

In this case, the Body and Blood are Mystically veiled under the appearance of bread and wine. The Body and Blood are there! You just can't see it.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 8/6/15


"So, please tell me why Jesus didn't STOP them in 66,"

Nicole,


pay attention,

61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, Does this cause you to stumble?
62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

64 is your answer
---john9346 on 8/6/15


"Read John 6:34-69.

Why are all other parts of the Bible to be interpreted literally"
First of all, "all other parts of the Bible" is a very great quantity of verses, and much is figurative, too many to go into here, but I am sure some good examples may be given. Some are both literal and figurative, some may be one or the other. Context and other scriptural support (witness) should be considered and helps to clarify. Asking the Lord for understanding, not mans, including self, is key. It wasnt until fairly recently that I realized that much in the NT can also be found, or witnessed in the OT.
---Chria9396 on 8/6/15


Nicole, verses 63 and 64 answers your question Jesus starts the explanation in verse 61 and ends in verse 65. -john9346 on 8/5/15

John, they LEFT in verse 66 which comes after 65.

So, please tell me why Jesus didn't STOP them in 66, and way he DARED the other 12 to leave Him as well?

Plus, you didn't answer if you believe Peter got the coins from a FISH literally?

Strongaxe you as well please answer the question about the Fish.

Why are you willing to believe coins where in a Fish and not Jesus making Himself food for us in the form of Bread and Wine?

You all do know He is God and can DO ANYTHING, RIGHT?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/6/15


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john9346 * Ruben, good question did you know Jesus addressed it in verses 61-65.

Remember, you have to go to 61-65 before you get to 66.

i have already explain v 61-65 but why would Jesus let you and I disciples of his walk away from him if he was only speaking symbolic? They did not walk away only because of v61-65 it was from 52-65!!

john9346 *Ruben, cannibalism is a result of Divine Judgment see Lev, 17:1-14, Ezekiel 5:10, Lamentations 2:20 and 4:10

That still did not stop Jesus from using the words eat my flesh and drink my blood did it? Jews at that time knew about Lev, Eze and Lam, but Jesus continue on with eat my flesh and drink my blood.v52-54
---Ruben on 8/6/15


Thank you Strong ax.

Ruben why did you tell a lie?

I never said that the Crucifixion was symbolic. He is symbolically crucified every mass in some churches. Unless you really believe that he has to die over and over again?

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is the Spiritual meaning and the word of GOD which is both the Bible and Jesus. That are life.

Are you salt? Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/6/15


Nicole_Lacey:

You said: Do you all deny ... Do you all see how crazy that sounds?

Yes, of course it's crazy, and you're the only one suggesting that. Nobody here has said anything like that.

Saying "Some things in the Bible are metaphors" (what I said) is very different from saying "All things in the Bible are metaphors" (what you implied above).

You do you answer the fact that Jesus also said he is the vine (but he isn't really a plant), etc.? Clearly if "is" is plainly not literal in one case, you can no longer assume it's literal in all other cases, especially when all other evidence indicates (e.g. the fact that communion wafers don't suddenly change into meat) that it is not.
---StrongAxe on 8/5/15


"Even when some ofJesus disciples walk away, Don't you think if it was You and I that Jesus who is Love would call us back and tell us it is not about really eating his flesh or drinking his blood?"

Ruben, good question did you know Jesus addressed it in verses 61-65.

Remember, you have to go to 61-65 before you get to 66.

"In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."

Ruben, cannibalism is a result of Divine Judgment see Lev, 17:1-14, Ezekiel 5:10, Lamentations 2:20 and 4:10
---john9346 on 8/5/15


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"Now will someone please tell me WHY JESUS CHOSE NOT to STOP them over a symbolic meaning?"
Nicole, verses 63 and 64 answers your question Jesus starts the explanation in verse 61 and ends in verse 65.

"The NT never uses "Spirit" in a symbolic way,"

Ruben, the word spirit in this verse is the same word for spirit back in Jn 4:24 not referencing the Holy Spirit .

"It is clear that Jesus main focus on JHN 6 is LIFE."

Ruben, read in context Jn 6 is centered on believing this is why Jesus compares eating to believing and drinking to following him.
---john9346 on 8/5/15


Steveng:

You said: When will denominational christians (chrisitans who think they are christians, but are not) go from the knowledge of God to true faith? As it is written that they have the knowledge of God, but deny his power.

Once again, you judge people with a wide brush. There are both wheat and tares within denominational churches, and there are both wheat and tares outside of them. It is premature to pre-judge people based on a single criterion as you do. Scripture never makes a connection between false belief, nor "having the knowledge of God but denying his power", with "denominational churches". Only you do.
---StrongAxe on 8/5/15


Samuel* Bread is not human flesh. Wine is not blood.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/4/15

Let see what Jesus says:

"This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world' -(Jhn 6:51)

" For my Flesh is Real food, and my Blood is real drink." v 54

" From this time many of his (Jesus) disciples turned back and followed him no more (Jhn 6:66)


Samuel says It was symbolic when he died on the cross !

If it was symbolic why did Jesus not call back his disciples? When you no longer followed Jesus you are not heading toward Heaven!

Scripture tells us :

"God our Savior, Who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth ' ( 1 Tim- 2:3)
---Ruben on 8/5/15


When will denominational christians (chrisitans who think they are christians, but are not) go from the knowledge of God to true faith? As it is written that they have the knowledge of God, but deny his power.
---Steveng on 8/4/15


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Is Jesus a light beam that shines in the whole world? John 8:12 No that is symbolic.

Is Jesus a vine and are we branches that bear fruit. Is the Father a gardener that takes care of us plants. John 15:1,5

Was Jesus a walking loaf of bread. John 6:41,48,51

When we follow Jesus do rivers pour out of us giving living water? Do we never get thirsty and never have to drink water again? John 4:10,11 7,48

Is Jesus a book. John 1:1.

Are we supposed to cut off our hands or feet? Mark 9:43

None of these are literal. But when a passage is speaking of literal things it is literal and symbolic it is symbolic. Bread is not human flesh. Wine is not blood.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/4/15


Do you all deny the FIG TREE died in one day?

Do you all deny the Apostle REALLY casts out demons in Jesus' name?

Do you all deny that Jesus ROSE from the dead?

You know Jewish and Muslim people think Christians are crazy for believing our God died on a cross and LITERALLY ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

Do you all believe that Jesus REALLY FED 5000 MEN not counting women and children with 2 fish and 5 loaves?

COME ON?
No, Jesus just made the people think they were eating and mentally they were full so their stomachs felt full.

Do you all see how crazy that sounds?

Yes, Jesus states TRULY my BODY and BLOOD is TRUE FOOD AND DRINK!

HOW TRULY SHOULD JESUS BE FOR YOU ALL TO TRULY BELIEVE HIM?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/4/15


Sorry Micha, BUT YES WE DO! We take Jesus at His word.

When Peter asked to walk on water, didn't he do it?
When did he start to sink? When he took his eye OFF OF JESUS.

As I said, Jesus always clarifies HIMSELF.

Samuel, every Church is still taking Jesus literally.
I am sorry to tell you this, but you only can have a Church if you have a Valid Priesthood.
So, your assembly isn't truly a Church.

Now will someone please tell me WHY JESUS CHOSE NOT to STOP them over a symbolic meaning?

Didn't Peter get coins from a fish Literally?
Jesus didn't STOP him because the coins were in the fish. Peter got them and paid the temple taxes for him and Jesus.

Do you ALSO DENY the coins came from a FISH?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/4/15


Nicole_Lacey:

If communion is supposed to be eating the literal, physical body of Christ and drinking his literal, physical blood, then ever single church after New Testament times has been doing it wrong, because even after tne htranssubstantiation, they appear to all physical tests to remain bread and wine in form, regardless of thier substance.
---StrongAxe on 8/4/15


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Yes those who turned back took in literally. When they should have taken it spiritually.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Good point Micha.

We need the Holy Spirit to understand scripture and which is literal and which is symbolic.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/4/15


/Read John 6:34-69. Why are all other parts of the Bible to be interpreted literally (i.e. Jesus walking on water) but this passage is always interpreted in symbols?\
It is interesting that you did not include v33
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
I don't believe that Nicole, Brendan, Cluny, nor Ruben actually believe that Jesus is a loaf of bread, hence symbolic.
Context is everything.
---micha9344 on 8/4/15


Scripture is not to be interpreted/understood literally (Romans says that devotion is SPIRITUAL, not literal).

It is a trick/lie of satan that the understanding of scripture can be accomplished LITERALLY (God is spiritual, so understanding is SPIRITUAL, NOT LITERAL).
---faithforfaith on 8/4/15


Samuel, forget Jesus' Words. What about the Disciple's words?

John 6:52.."How can this man give us HIS FLESH TO EAT?

John 6:60 Then many of his disciples who were LISTENING said, "This saying is hard, WHO CAN ACCEPT IT?"

Really? Symbolic words are hard to take?????

When Moses told them to walk into the Red Sea, OKAY No complaint.

When Moses told them to eat the manna, they first asked "What is it?": means Manna
They didn't know. Guess what Moses' response to them?
EAT IT! Exodus 16:15

Walking through the sea and eating dew from the ground called bread according to Moses, that they could do LITERALLY.

But Symbolic stuff, WAIT ONE MINUTE!
NO CAN DO! JOHN 6:66
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/3/15


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john9346 *Ruben, verse 64 gives you the answer.

" The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."v64

The NT never uses "Spirit" in a symbolic way, As you know it is the HS that gives life and gives us to a life-changing understanding of what Jesus is trying to tell us!

Jesus use the word 'Life' throughout the verses we been talikng about (v27-33-47-51-53-54-58) It is clear that Jesus main focus on JHN 6 is LIFE.

Unless you are lead by the HS you are not able to understand Jesus words, that is why Jesus says "the flesh counts for nothing"
---Ruben on 8/4/15


-john9346* Jesus explains clearly verses 53-57 and says it again and again in verses 35 and 63.

But Jesus changing his language from hunger,thirst to suddenly to eating his fleah and drinking his blood! And as you mention he does not back down from using eating and drinking at all .

Even when some ofJesus disciples walk away, Don't you think if it was You and I that Jesus who is Love would call us back and tell us it is not about really eating his flesh or drinking his blood?



-john9346* It is also important to note that cannibalism is a result of Divine Judgment

It is also more important that Jesus who is the author of scripture, that he did not change his language v51 to 66, why??
---Ruben on 8/4/15


"They knew He was talking about His Body and Blood as True Food and Drink" Nicole_Lacey

Based on what? I see no verse in the New Testament that states they knew this?

When he said it at the last supper. They did not cut up his body and eat it.

Many times Jesus uses figurative language to describe himself. I read no reason to assume this is not the same.

Do you judge me as a non-christians because I and others disagree with you on this?

Does the fact it is symbolic change the truth it teaches?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/3/15


Ruben, well said!
No one accused Jesus of being a vine.

Rita, please show another passage where Jesus lets them think wrong of Him or the message He is trying to tell them.

They thought Lazarus was dead, He corrected them.
He corrected Nicodemus about re entering his mother's womb.

They thought Jesus was mad because they forgot to bring food and water on the boat, Jesus corrected them.

Woman to woman. Please show me where Jesus refuses to correct the Disciples.

John 6 is where Jesus digs deep and deeper.
No other passage shows how much Jesus refuses to correct them because they were on the same page as Him.

They knew He was talking about His Body and Blood as True Food and Drink
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/3/15


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Monk_Brendan:

You said: Later in the same chapter, Jesus said, "...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." He tells us that this is the real, truth.


It is real truth, but not literal truth. I have yet to see ANY church where bread and wine are turned into LITERAL flesh and blood. All physical evidence shows that they are still PHYSICALLY bread and wine. Say what you want about "form" and "essence", but the physical form is still bread and wine, to all physical tests. So "is" is demonstrably not literal here.
---StrongAxe on 8/3/15


"Really, those who were there did not understand v60 and Jesus did not call them back to tell them they misunderstood him why??
Ruben, verse 64 gives you the answer.

Jesus opens by giving the interpretation in verse 35 and again in verse 63 so Jesus explains clearly verses 53-57 and says it again and again in verses 35 and 63.



It is also important to note that cannibalism is a result of Divine Judgment see Ezekiel 5:10, Lamentations 2:20 and 4:10
---john9346 on 8/3/15


As I said, the Bible itself defines whether its statements are literal or spiritual in interpretation, and many times in the same chapter. In this case, Jesus Himself pronounces that the bread and wine are SPIRIRUAL - NOT LITERAL, as:

Joh 6:63,64 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not.

The word of Jesus is good enough for me.


---jerry6593 on 8/3/15


Jesus said He was also LOVING WATER. John 4:10-11. We see this cross referenced also in the wilderness as Jesus was that ROCK that followed them around, who also said He was that bread that fell from Heaven. But where is this ROCK today?
Paul said in reference to the Lords supper...TO REMEMBER MY DEATH UNTIL I COME. Since the risen Christ has Glorified flesh, and no blood, you can't be literally partaking of the risen Christ, but you are symbolically partaking of His death, as is what ALL the NT teaches. Romans 6, Philippians 3 Colossians 3:1-4 etc. and Colossians 2. We are being made conformable to His death.
---kathr4453 on 8/3/15


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StrongAxe* He didn't. He didn't have to.

In Jhn 6:66 scripture says "From this time many of his(Jesus) disciples turned back and NO LONGER FOLLOWED him" What happens to your soul when you no longer follow Jesus? So your are right He didn't have to, if you do not believe in his words he will let you go!!

StrongAxe* Why should the Bible be any different.

Really, those who were there did not understand v60 and Jesus did not call them back to tell them they misunderstood him why??

StrongAxe * Jesus said "I am the vine". Was he literally a plant? He never explicitly said he wasn't, but be reasonable.

Because no one said 'How can he be a vine?'
---Ruben on 8/2/15


StrongAxe said, "Jesus said, "This is my body". Yet despite this, the bread did not actually transform into flesh. If you go into any chuch (pre-reformation or otherwise), the bread, to all physical forms of inspection, remains bread. (my emphasis) Therefore, the word "is" here must be being used in a way that is different ...use of "is",..."

Later in the same chapter, Jesus said, "...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." He tells us that this is the real, truth.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 8/2/15


"But, this one in John 6:66 they left Jesus saying "HOW CAN WE EAT HIS FLESH." and they LEFT Jesus.
NOOOO, Jesus decides at this time not to correct them, but lets them GO and turns to the others and only 12 Apostles and dares them to leave as well."

Nicole, the answer to your question follows verse 64 right after verse 63 where he explains verse 53.

The disciples stop following him because of "Unbelief."

Please pay attention to the verses they are telling you what they mean...
---john9346 on 8/2/15


Strongaxe, John and Jerry in every other misunderstanding the Apostle obtain from Jesus, Jesus CORRECTED THEM.

But, this one in John 6:66 they left Jesus saying "HOW CAN WE EAT HIS FLESH." and they LEFT Jesus.
NOOOO, Jesus decides at this time not to correct them, but lets them GO and turns to the others and only 12 Apostles and dares them to leave as well.

So, please answer this question.

HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK JESUS IS?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/2/15


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Ruben:

You said: Then Jesus himself is not being honest, where does he said it is only symbolic?

He didn't. He didn't have to. In every other context, English (and all other human languages that I know) can be prose or poetry, literal, metaphorical, or allegorical. The reader expects to (and is expected to) be able to distinguish these forms to understand the underlying meaning. Why should the Bible be any different.

Jesus said "I am the vine". Was he literally a plant? He never explicitly said he wasn't, but be reasonable.
---StrongAxe on 8/2/15


Ruben,

"Whose interpretation is correct?"
Jesus see verse 63.

Isn't Jesus able to define his own words??

John 6:63 explains the meaning of verses 51 and 55.

Remember 51 and 55 comes before 63 not after 63...
---john9346 on 8/2/15


Jerry-The Bible contains several literary forms as: literal, symbolic, metaphorical, poetic, parable, etc. It is its own interpreter as to which type is being currently used by current context and comparison to ALL other scriptures.

Whose interpretation is correct?

Jerry-Anyone who would argue for literal human flesh and blood is not being honest with himself.

Then Jesus himself is not being honest, where does he said it is only symbolic?

" This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world " (Jhn 6:51

Was it his body on the cross or not?

" For my Flesh is real food and my Blood is real drink" (Jhn 6:55)
---Ruben on 8/2/15


Well, I guest John 6:66 is the path of the church fathers like Cyprian, Justin Martyr, Augusteen,Turtullian, Irenaeus, etc.

They taught and believe symbolic of eating the flesh and blood of Jesus.
---john9346 on 8/2/15


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JOHN 6:66 is your path if you DON'T interpret John 6 literally.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/1/15


The Bible contains several literary forms as: literal, symbolic, metaphorical, poetic, parable, etc. It is its own interpreter as to which type is being currently used by current context and comparison to ALL other scriptures.

As for whether the bread and blood are actually human flesh and blood, we have in the 21st century the scientific equipment to test these. We also have our God-given senses of smell and taste. Anyone who would argue for literal human flesh and blood is not being honest with himself.


---jerry6593 on 8/1/15


John 6:22-69, Is symbolic. We are not literally eating the Body of Jesus. It is still bread and wine.
Notice: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst" John 6:32-35.

---Samuelbb7 on 7/31/15

Notice: Jesus did not mention about eating his flesh or drinking his blood, thus no one question it.

However when he did , then they ask:

" How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Tell me Samuel what was Jesus answer to that question??
---Ruben on 8/1/15


John 6:22-69, Is symbolic. We are not literally eating the Body of Jesus. It is still bread and wine.
Notice: "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.... And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst" John 6:32-35.
" John 6:48-51, John 6:58.
We are commanded to observe Communion. Matthew 26:26-29 says, Luke 22:19-20
John 1:1-4: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ... (Ps. 34:8).
---Samuelbb7 on 7/31/15


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Brendan,

1. "Rather, let's talk about why it is only the pre-reformation churches that take this passage literally."
Turtullian, Clement of Alexander, and Justin martyr all believe and taught this passage to be litteral...

2. "What does this mean? If I listen I can hear Jesus telling me to listen?
see John 6:63

3. "Can you provide a Bible verse that actually says this?"
Cluny, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 church fathers believed the same.
---john9346 on 7/30/15


Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink,... err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Why should we follow a doctrine that is against scripture?
---Samuelbb7 on 7/30/15


Monk_Brendan:

You said: Rather, let's talk about why it is only the pre-reformation churches that take this passage literally. This passage tells us in unambiguous language that the Eucharist is what it claims to be, the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Jesus said, "This is my body". Yet despite this, the bread did not actually transform into flesh. If you go into any chuch (pre-reformation or otherwise), the bread, to all physical forms of inspection, remains bread. Therefore, the word "is" here must be being used in a way that is different from our normal, literal use of "is", just as when Jesus said "I am the vine". He did not suddenly turn into a plant.
---StrongAxe on 7/30/15


John said, "If you listen closely to John 6:34-70 Jesus tells you let him tell you what he means."

What does this mean? If I listen I can hear Jesus telling me to listen?

Rather, let's talk about why it is only the pre-reformation churches that take this passage literally. This passage tells us in unambiguous language that the Eucharist is what it claims to be, the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 7/30/15


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Whatever your theology is, you must find a way to make Scripture fit into it.---learner2 on 7/29/15

Theology means the study of God.

So, shouldn't it be what God's Word is you should OBEY that Scripture?

You can't make God as a whatever.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/30/15


\\We are to read the Bible and take our theology from the Bible. \\

Can you provide a Bible verse that actually says this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/30/15


We are to read the Bible and take our theology from the Bible.

But you are correct learner2 many have their theology and then ignore and fit the parts of the Bible that seems to agree with their points. They don't make all scripture agree.

Others look to authorities to tell them what the Bible means by tradition and their office.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

We must listen to the words of Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/30/15


There are two trains of thought, in a worldly way, of course, to understanding.

One, the jewish people are very poetic - knowing how to use metaphors and similes. This is one reason why jewish people succeed in the entertainment industry. The bible is full of metaphors and similes.

And, two, it would be arrogance on the part of modern man to think the people 2,000 years ago were not as advanced as we are today. "Batteries" were found that were 3,000 years old, buildings built to perfection, etc.

One more train of thought is how can anyone interpret spiritual matters using worldly knowledge? Look at all of today's "bibles" that were interpreted from the KJV.
---Steveng on 7/29/15


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Whatever your theology is, you must find a way to make Scripture fit into it.
---learner2 on 7/29/15


John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The Eucharist is not an empty sign for protestants. While symbolic it is full of meaning. When we truly take into our Spirit the Spirit of Christ and follow His words. Then we are eating his flesh etc.

Thank you John9346 good points.

Catholic martyrs often did not get to partake of communion. Will they have to spend extra time in purgatory since they couldn't partake?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/29/15


Brendan,

We must allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves and not the other way around.

transubstantiation was not an established teaching among the church fathers, it evolved over time just like the pope infallibility and other teachings. .

If you listen closely to John 6:34-70 Jesus tells you let him tell you what he means.
---john9346 on 7/29/15


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