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Theif In Paradise

Did Jesus actually meet the thief in paradise the day He died on the cross?

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 ---jerry6593 on 7/31/15
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All that gobbledygook to say you're right & I'm wrong? You think about it Sam! smh
---Leon on 8/15/15


Richard: The near-death experiences you describe are common hallucinations caused by depravation of oxygen to the brain - nothing else. How did Lazarus describe his experience after Jesus resurrected him? NOTHING!


---jerry6593 on 8/16/15


Joseph we all have our chance on earth. We don't have a second chance after death.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It is our decisions made today by faith that shows our hearts desire.

Amazing Grace.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/15


"In heaven the judgment is made prior to Christ's return with ten thousand of His holy ones [angels]. No people have yet been judged at death because the reward of eternal life is only given at the resurrection at Christ's return, and Christ brings His reward with Him.."Amen.
The resurrection will included everyone who has not blatantly rejected Him. Not all will be immortal at that time, however, eternal life will be available to all. Yet, even in resurrected state of physical incorruption, there will be those who will hear the gospel and reject it, and will be among the deceived when Satan is released, and encompasses "the camp of the saints." Rev. 20:7-9
---joseph on 8/15/15


Jerry - Jude 1:14 - in the king James say's Saint's

Paul calls Believers saints - Refer - Corinthians 1:1 also - Ephesians 4:12

Jerry am a little Bias on this one - Had a Aunt that die on the operating table, When down a tunnel of white light - Got to the end and her brother that die as a child was waiting there, And the main man himself, Said she had to go back, This was the most wire tied protestant you could ever meet, Couldn't wait to go back to the congregation to tell them
Few year later mother dyeing - going though same thing - telling me she was looking down on her body - could walk though walls like vapor, Very happy and excited on what was going on ,
---Richardc on 8/15/15




Richard: "When?"

In heaven the judgment is made prior to Christ's return with ten thousand of His holy ones [angels]. No people have yet been judged at death because the reward of eternal life is only given at the resurrection at Christ's return, and Christ brings His reward with Him, as:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


---jerry6593 on 8/15/15


Darlene:

Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression, for thou shalt not fear: and from terror, for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work, and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper, ... This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

May God bless and protect you and yours.


---jerry6593 on 8/15/15


Leon you're speculating.

I have no problem with some speculations. I cannot base a doctrine on guesses. For a doctrine I need a Thus saith the LORD.

The doctrine of the dead are asleep in the grave comes directly from the Bible. I have given many verses. Read 1Corinthians 15:18 is just one.

Where my speculation which is based on my understanding of Jude is that Moses was resurrected.

The point that Jesus is stated to be the first Resurrection you have to modify to make the first of it's kind. I modify to be preeminence.

The dead are alive in heaven has no Biblical basis. No thus saith the LORD. Only speculations put together.

All the dead have to be judged before the resurrections. Think about it.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/15/15


Mark_Eaton on 8/14/15 Amen.
---joseph on 8/14/15


///Leon: The tree of life is in paradise. (Rev 2:7)... Therefore, Paradise IS Heaven...That's my logic, and I'm sticking with it. I find your logic on the subject to be illogical...---jerry6593 on 8/14/15///

Sure Jerry, now it is! Do you suppose God could've relocated it? Why am I not surprised your illogical logic would find my logical logic illogical? :)
---Leon on 8/14/15




Jerry - Stand before God ?

But When ? Last day of a man life or End of World ? People will be judged on that day - time has ended, But though history it's the time of man's death, That was the conclusion I came up with going though all the verses, Adam and Eve - Kick out of the garden of eden - immediate, they die ! Once again Christ comes with ten thousand of his saints - believers, ----- Micha Got this one right - and put some of it down !
---Richardc on 8/14/15


Darlene GOD be with you, your family and with all your neighbors. May GOD protect and watch over you.

In Jesus name I pray amen.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/14/15


But if first means preeminence then there would be no problem. Also when Jesus was resurrected he was not alone...Since the judgment seat is future. How can anyone be in hell or heaven since they have not been judged yet?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/13/15

First let me address the resurrection of Jesus. He is the first to receive the new body. No one else has received theirs. And even though other people may have been resurrected, they all returned to the grave except Jesus. Key differences.

Your question: Two judgment times. The first (for the believer) before the First Resurrection. How else would God resurrect only the righteous ones? The second and final judgment after the second resurrection.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/14/15


I'm sorry to intrude on here but I have an urgent prayer request. The fires are burning rampant in Idaho. Lightening which came with the thunderstorms has ignited forest fires. There are 100 fires around the small town my Son-in-law went to school in,in Idaho. He still has all his family there and through out Idaho. His Mom and brother live a few miles away from the town but in the mountains. One nephew has already been evacuated. The wind is expected to hit 45 miles an hour with the next rain storm. Pray for all of the people and that God sends rain without storms and high wind to put out the fires or however he pleases to end this nightmare. Remember the firefighters too.Thank you,God Bless.
---Darlene_1 on 8/14/15


Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath,
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 12:7 ...and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
-Man has a spirit
-The spirit goes back to God upon death.
-Jesus and the thief died the same day.
-Logical conclusion: Their spirits were in paradise with God that same day.
---micha9344 on 8/14/15


Leon:

The tree of life is in paradise. (Rev 2:7)

God's throne is in heaven. (Rev 4:2)

The river of water of life flows from God's throne. (Rev 22:1)

The river of water of life flows through the tree of life. (Rev 22:2)

Therefore, Paradise IS Heaven.

QED

That's my logic, and I'm sticking with it. I find your logic on the subject to be illogical.


Richard:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, ....
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

---jerry6593 on 8/14/15


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Samuel - Judgment seat in the future ? - haven't gone over this in awhile - but as I recall judgment could be immediately, at time of death - Refer - Hebrews 9:27

You also have Christ Coming with his Saints - On Judgment day, - Refer - Jude 1:14

Matthew - 27-52 53 - Could be Symbolic in nature , in what happen at Judgment day - body and soul reunited
---Richardc on 8/13/15


Father's house: Jewish nation.
You missed the Old Testament.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/15

You've missed 3/4's of the entire Bible. Judah is 1/12th of Israel. Not the whole house. You play at a dangerous game... claiming and attempting to be something you are not. A teacher and preacher.

Lets look at the final house with 12 gates. You've post only one, Judahs.
Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Note the wording below..."and" Judah.
Heb_8:8 ... I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 8/13/15


///Leon While I disagree with Cluny. I see no reason to hand out insults. That is not a loving thing to do...---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/15///

///Wrong, Leon.

Jesus was NOT murdered. He Himself said, "No man takes my life. I give it."

Read the Gospels sometimes. [? ~ Such a typically snide remark coming from you Cluny.]

Glory to Jesus Christ! [?!!!]
---Cluny on 8/10/15///

Sam: I'm very much aware you don't agree with me either. Obviously, this is your passive aggressive way of trying to back hand me. That's not a loving thing to do! :)
---Leon on 8/12/15


I remember Jesus resurrecting Lazarus, a small boy and a girl. Also Elisha resurrected a boy. So by your way of looking at things this list would make Jesus's resurrection the fourth one.

But if first means preeminence then there would be no problem. Also when Jesus was resurrected he was not alone.

Mat 27:52,53
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I keep answering your questions. But I don't remember you answering mine.

Since the judgment seat is future. How can anyone be in hell or heaven since they have not been judged yet?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/13/15


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2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are always confident, I say , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord,

Psalm 30:3 - O Lord Thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down in the pit,
---Richardc on 8/12/15


"Can you please explain a little about your answer. Do you believe our understanding of His statement is incorrect?" Yes.
"Please illuminate." Sure, I simply believe He was misquoted by the translator's bias. Why? Because the thief's request was "remember me when you come into you're kingdom". Given that to & day was not rendered as a compound word, and the fact that the word "eis" translated to, could be defined as either to, this, or that. I believe Jesus actually said in response to the thief, "assuredly I say to you, [that] day (when I come into My kingdom, [which is yet future]) you will be with me in paradise.
---joseph on 8/12/15


First Born can also stand for preeminence being the most important.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/15

How about in plainer language then:

Acts 26:23 "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles"

Do you still claim that Moses was resurrected from the dead before Jesus? And if not, how does Moses appear at the Transfiguration?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/15


Leon While I disagree with Cluny. I see no reason to hand out insults. That is not a loving thing to do.

Good point Jerry. Thank you.

True Jesus let them murder him. So yes they did murder him and yes it is true that Jesus laid down his own life.

Marke
First Born can also stand for preeminence being the most important.

Psalms 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/15


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How do these square with your theory that Jesus was resurrected first?
---jerry6593 on 8/12/15

It is not my theory, it is the declaration of the Holy Spirit about Jesus. It is in both Col. 1:18 and Rev. 1:5. Anything repeated in Scripture is important.

I do not think that the resurrections you describe were the same as Jesus, otherwise Scripture would be incorrect about Jesus.

But you and Samuel have yet to explain to me how Moses is in heaven. Has he stood before the Judgment Seat of Christ as we all will? Has he been resurrected before the First and Second Resurrections in The Revelation? Or is he a disembodied-spook as some declare?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/15


Did Jesus actually meet the thief in paradise the day He died on the cross? No.
---joseph on 7/31/15

Can you please explain a little about your answer?

Do you believe our understanding of His statement is incorrect?

Please illuminate.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/15


Mark E: Elijah resurrected the widow's son and Jesus resurrected Lazarus. How do these square with your theory that Jesus was resurrected first?
---jerry6593 on 8/12/15


Acts 2: 23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God ,ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain,
---Richardc on 8/11/15


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///You believe what you wish. You will anyway.

I will believe what Jesus actually said.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/15///

You, Cluny, believe nothing but the self-deluding pomposity manufactured between your ears.
---Leon on 8/11/15


\\Wrong Cluny! It's a matter or perspective of which lack you significantly: Jesus was falsely accused, He was "innocent" of all charges, but nonetheless murdered by the contempt & hatred of the heretical Jews.\\

You believe what you wish. You will anyway.

I will believe what Jesus actually said.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/15


Cluny, Yes, YAHUSHUA laid His own Life down, no one took it from Him, as He assured in JOHN 10:18.

He was the One in control.
In obedience to His Father.

Yet, the Apostle Paul stated, in I THESSALONIANS 2:14b-15a, that the Jews "...killed the Lord JESUS (YAHUSHUA), and their own prophets...".

So, YAHUSHUA was killed, but, He, ultimately, being God, laid His own Life down as the Ransom.
---Gordon on 8/11/15


micha9344

Okay.

Beggar us and the poor of the world. We are poor in the truth until we hear the gospel also many are poor in goods.

Lazarus John 11

gate: World

Rich Man:Those with money and also Spiritual richness who don't care for others.

Crumbs: little spare money and truth.

Table: Their goods
Dogs shows how poor.
Sores are sick
Abraham: Father of true faithful.
Hell: Gehenna final lake of fire.
( eyes, finger, water, tongue,)Physical things and body parts.
Flame: Gehenna
brother: Jewish leaders
Gulf: separation of saved and lost.
Father's house: Jewish nation.

You missed the Old Testament.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/15


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So I can agree with both passages and not have to reject one of them.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/15

Really? How is that possible?

Jesus is said to be the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18) yet you seem to think that Moses preceded Jesus and was resurrected before Jesus. Nowhere does Scripture confirm this theory. Jude does not say that Moses was resurrected.

Therefore, Moses body is still in the ground but his spirit appeared with Jesus during the transfiguration.

And you agree with that?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/11/15


///Wrong, Leon.

Jesus was NOT murdered. He Himself said, "No man takes my life. I give it."

Read the Gospels sometimes. [? ~ Such a typically snide remark coming from you Cluny.]

Glory to Jesus Christ! [?!!!]
---Cluny on 8/10/15///

Wrong Cluny! It's a matter or perspective of which lack you significantly: Jesus was falsely accused, He was "innocent" of all charges, but nonetheless murdered by the contempt & hatred of the heretical Jews.

Yes, Jesus did allow the Romans to crucify (execute) Him for the sake of OUR sin...
---Leon on 8/11/15


Yes, YAHUSHUA met the thief in Paradise that same day they died.
---Gordon on 8/8/15

Well said. We know Christ doesn't lie.
Now we find daily, that doctrines will. Devising any thought in their heads, even to their own destruction. Go figure.
Ezekiel explains the process, death first:
Eze 37:13 ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
---Trav on 8/11/15


So many to reply too. Thank you for this opportunity

Mark_Eaton

Yes Enoch and Elijah were translated and went to heaven directly. How does this prove the dead are awake?

Elijah never died. But Moses was resurrected by my understanding of Jude and the fight over his body.

Matthew 22 JESUS is defending the resurrection from the dead. Read the context. I believe in the resurrection from the dead and you do too. This proves my understanding.

This must be compared to 1Corinthians 15. Where the dead are asleep. We close our eyes and open them at the Second Coming. when I die I will be with the Lord. No time for me will have past. So I can agree with both passages and not have to reject one of them.

Yes.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/15


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Wrong, Leon.

Jesus was NOT murdered. He Himself said, "No man takes my life. I give it."

Read the Gospels sometimes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/10/15


Nouns (people, places, things) in each parable represent something else in parallel, hence the word.
Take the Sower.
The ground, brambles, road, rock, sower, seed, birds, and fruit all had parallel representations.
Take the Man's Vineyard.
The man, vineyard, husbandmen, country, servant, fruit, lord, son, heir, and inheritance have parallel representations.
Now let's go to Lazarus and the rich man.
There must be a parallel for each noun.
What do beggar, Lazarus, gate, rich man, crumbs, table, dogs, sores, angels, Abraham, bosom, hell, eyes, finger, water, tongue, flame, brothers, gulf, father's house, and so on each represent?
It is a parable after all right?
---micha9344 on 8/10/15


///Gordan same old story with no proof.

This Parable is not a true tale.

...
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/15///

So, there's the rub! Sam doesn't believe the parable Jesus told. He's convinced it's not true. Based on what? It just doesn't make sense to Sam. Oh well, there goes the parable!
---Leon on 8/10/15


Correction, this line should have read"Jesus died for us in every [sense] of the word, and remained dead for three days."
"Joe: After being murdered, Jesus was physically dead, but His Spirit man was very much alive, just like Lk. 16:19-31 illustrates. Jesus, like Abraham, Lazarus, the rich man, etc., was very much alive & "consciously aware" in His Spirit body. "
Ok, Thanks. I will keep this view in mind as I continue my studies.
---joseph on 8/10/15


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Joe: After being murdered, Jesus was physically dead, but His Spirit man was very much alive, just like Lk. 16:19-31 illustrates. Jesus, like Abraham, Lazarus, the rich man, etc., was very much alive & "consciously aware" in His Spirit body.

Sam: Sorry! I can't show you what you're unwilling to see from scripture.

Jerry: Q.E.D.? No! You haven't provided any Bible proof.

Here's proof: 1 Peter 3:18-19 ~ Isaiah 61:1 ~ Acts 2:27 ~ John 19:30 ~ Luke 16:19-31.

"So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the garden of EDEN Cherubims, and a flaming [FIREY] sword which turned every way, to keep [GUARD] the way of the TREE OF LIFE." (Genesis 3:24, KJV)

Q.E.D.
---Leon on 8/10/15


Gordan same old story with no proof. This Parable is not a true tale. None of what you say is backed up by scripture and not even found in the parable.

It doesn't mention paradise but Abraham's bosom. With the wicked talking (while being tortured) to Abraham. They wicked have bodies and can have their thirst quenched in torment by a single drop of water.

Yep a house on fire being put out by drop of water. Think about it.

Then it says the leaders will not be convinced even if Lazarus comes back from the dead.

Lazarus comes back from the dead and the leaders are not convinced.

Eph. 4:9. Yes Jesus was buried.

1Peter Yes the Holy Spirit preached in the days of Noah. Not when Jesus went into the Grave.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/15


Show me Bible verses that say otherwise.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/15

Sure:

Gen 5:24 "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him"

2 Kings 2 - Elijah taken up in a whirlwind

Matt 17 - Jesus is transfigured with Moses and Elijah

Matt 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

2 Cor. 5:8 "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord".

Need more?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/10/15


Paradise used to be in part of what we now know as Hell.

The Story of the rich man and Lazarus, in LUKE 16:19-31, shows us that the Hell of Torments and Paradise were separated by a great chasm or "gulf".
It's a chasm in the ground not a space between earth and sky.

This place of Hell is below the Earth's surface. It is, in fact, in the center of or the "heart" of the Earth.
Which this center or "heart" of the Earth is where YAHUSHUA descended to at His death.
MATTHEW 12:40. I PETER 3:18-19 and EPHESIANS 4:9 make an allusion to where He went to at death.

Paradise was below the Earth before the Resurrection. Then, afterwards, it was taken up to the 3rd Heaven where GOD's Throne dwells.
---Gordon on 8/10/15


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Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth or the grave.
NASB
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Look up the word soul. It can also mean life. Hell can also mean grave.

Also read in ICorithians 15. The dead are asleep.

So Jesus slept in the grave and arose Sunday Morning. The Thief is asleep awaiting the resurrection from the dead at Christ's coming.

Show me Bible verses that say otherwise.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/15


Deuteronomy 10:14 - - Indeed heaven of highest belongs to the Lord God, also the earth with al that is in it,

2 Corninthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the Body, I cannot tell, or wether out of the Body, I cannot tell, God knoweth) such as one caught up to the third Heaven,
---Richardc on 8/10/15


Leon:

The tree of life is in paradise.

God's throne is in heaven.

The river of water of life flows from God's throne.

The river of water of life flows through the tree of life.

Therefore, Paradise IS Heaven.

QED


---jerry6593 on 8/10/15


"So, where did Jesus & the repentant thief go on the day they died since it wasn't to heaven?" To the grave, they where dead. Jesus died for us in every since of the word, and remained dead for three days and nights, just as He said. I believe 'the heart of the earth' represented the tomb, the sepulcher, the grave, hades or hell, which ever of those words you choose to use. It was the place and state of the dead. Dead-Inanimate and without consciousness.
---joseph on 8/10/15


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Joe: Where were Abraham & Lazarus (Lk. 16:19-31)? If paradise was in heaven, obviously Jesus hadn't gone there yet after His resurrection (Jn. 20:17). So, where did Jesus & the repentant thief go on the day they died since it wasn't to heaven?
---Leon on 8/9/15


"Paradise is in heaven not hell". Amen. And we are informed that "no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven". Jhn 3:13
---joseph on 8/9/15


Sam: Rev. 2:7 was spoken to the church of Ephesus that was still on earth. It doesn't say paradise, WHERE THE TREE OF LIFE IS, is in heaven.

Please explain: Jesus said He & the thief would be in paradise that very day. You say Jesus didn't go to heaven that day, but went to hell.

So, just where is paradise (EDEN)? Why did Jesus go there? Is or is not paradise Abraham's bosom or was Jesus mistaken?

Please connect the scriptural dots in context friend!
---Leon on 8/9/15


Good point Kathyr

Leon you are incorrect.

Well that does not help my side much unless I say how and why. So I am asking you to tell me how and Why.

Gordan. If you go back and read you will find out that your statement is incorrect.

Paradise is in heaven not hell.

Revelations 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Jesus was in the grave or hell for three days and had not been to heaven yet.

Jhn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father:...
---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/15


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Yes, YAHUSHUA met the thief in Paradise that same day they died.

He said to this thief, in LUKE 23:43,
"And JESUS (YAHUSHUA) said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."

What YAHUSHUA said is plain, easy and straight-forward.

No need to break much down to analyze and find a meaning in there that is not really there.

When they both died, in their own time, immediately each went to Paradise. Where the Lord and the redeemed thief met up with each other.
---Gordon on 8/8/15


Sam: What part of

NARRATIVE

don't you understand? :)

Are you saying if the parable isn't mentioned more than once it's not true?

Proof? No Sam! What you've been doing is posting valid scripture out of context to this subject. That is to say, you've been trying to square peg a round hole.

This isn't a salvation issue & I'm really not trying to convince you of anything, so I'll leave it there.

God bless! :)
---Leon on 8/7/15


Fables and parables are NOT the same thing. We are FORBIDDED TO GIVE WAY TO FABLES. So you say Paul is telling us to reject the Parables Jesus gave?
---kathr4453 on 8/7/15


parable
1.A short narrative illustrating a lesson (usually religious/moral) by comparison or analogy.

fable
1.A fictitious narrative intended to enforce some useful truth or precept, usually with animals, birds etc as characters,

Dictionary not the same.

This parable has this. What proof of this is in the rest of the Bible?

Actually I have been showing proof you are incorrect. Ecclesiastes 12:7 show spirits return to GOD. Not go to a intermediate place.

ICorinthians15. Says we sleep and await the resurrection.

Body plus Spirit is soul. Genesis 2.

Psalms 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Matthew 22 is about the resurrection.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/7/15


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Sam: The words fable & parable are synonyms, meaning the same thing.

Why are you trying to change what I said & are saying things I didn't say? You don't believe the parables IN THE BIBLE are true, but you can't provide Bible proof of it.

Our physical bodies don't go to hell & get revived there. The Bible "shows" (in the parable of the Rich man & Lazarus) human "SPIRIT BODIES." seeing, thinking, recognizing, talking, feeling pleasure & torment, & capable of drinking water. Yet, you don't believe it though you can't scripturally disprove it.

One subject at a time Sam. We can talk about torment...in hell fire, etc., another time. Let's first get this subject straight.
---Leon on 8/6/15


Not a Fable a Parable. Not the same thing. The problem Leon is you say Jesus said we have spirit bodies. But you don't tell me where he says it.

Correct he didn't suffer in hell for our sins. We agree. But you teach the penalty for sin is eternal torment in fire. Jesus taught it is to be destroyed in hell.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I could comprehend spirits. It is just not taught anywhere in the Bible.

You didn't answer my questions. Or explain what the verses I showed mean.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/6/15


///...we have a Spirit [ & ] it activates our bodies...we don't have Spirit bodies... Our Spirit is two things... Breath Genesis 2:7 & who we are. [?] ...Spirit is often translated as PERSON...---Samuelbb7 on 8/6/15///

Sam: Do you believe Jesus went to hell & suffered there for our sins? No, He suffered & died on the cross, & there finished it. You, say He didn't go to Abraham's Bosom (hell) to "set the captives free" because it's not a real place. Just a fable. You disbelieve spirits can talk, feel, thirst. That's beyond your "willingness" to comprehend. Yet, Jesus said it was so. How else would one be comforted or tormented in hell without a body?

Yes Sam, PERSON(S)!
---Leon on 8/6/15


True Leon we have a Spirit and it activates our bodies. Hand in Glove.

But we don't have Spirit bodies and that is not in the Bible. Our Spirit is two things our Breath Genesis 2:7 and who we are. The word for Spirit is often translated as person.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When we die our spirit goes back to GOD.

How would a drop of water help a spirit body? Since it is not physical how could you dip a finger in it.

Do you believe in the Resurrection of the dead? 1Corinthians 15. Why if we already have bodies do we need to be resurrected?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/6/15


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Sam: Like we all do today, Jesus used metaphors to stress points. Obviously, He didn't mean a literal log. However, regarding the rich man & Lazarus, He spoke straight forward truth about their circumstances, end destinations & conditions.

True, the dead don't have "physical bodies". That doesn't mean they don't have "spirit bodies". The Bible shows we humans are spirit beings who live in earthen bodies & we all have souls/minds. Think of it as the hand & glove analogy, i.e., remove your hand from a glove & the glove is dead, but the hand still feels & is very much aware of life & it's sensations. Departed souls, according to Jesus, can talk, touch/feel, thirst, etc.
---Leon on 8/5/15


Okay Leon. Since you were being literal about so much I thought you were being literal about the city.

A number of Parables of Jesus are stories. Luke 6:41-42 unless you thing a log can go into the eye of a man. Matthew 21 Which was about the pharisees and Israel on a story. There are more.

In the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man both have bodies. But you say the dead don't have bodies. They can touch water and a single drop of water would help. Those in torment could talk to Abraham.

Jesus did raise Lazarus from the dead and the leaders still did not believe.

Paul looked for: Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/4/15


/Acts 2:27-31 Jesus in hell.\
/I agree Jesus is GOD.\
---Samuelbb7 on 8/3/15
Psa 139:7-8 God is everywhere.
But we can't agree that Jesus was in paradise and hell the day after His crucifixion?
His death was His separation from the Father.
Do you think He was separated from the Father for 3 earthly days rather than an immediate reconciliation?
The resurrection and the ascension were bodily, as you and I should agree, yet Jesus had no body when He was being glorified with the Father before His earthly birth.
He cannot maintain that without His body?
Do you think Jesus was "soul sleeping" for 3 days?
---micha9344 on 8/4/15


Sam: In the referenced passages concerning Capernium, it's quite obviously speaking of the people of the city. You obviously read something into that that I didn't imply. Why? Was it to make a point? If so, I'm sorry to inform you that you missed it.

Matt. 16:18 parallels Luke 16:23 in that hades/HELL (the place of torment) is separated by a gulf/chasm from Abraham's bosom/PARADISE (a blessed place/"Eden" IN HELL). I believe the parable because Jesus (The Truth, Jn.14:6) told it as truth. For that matter, all His parables are true. Why don't you believe it as such? I'd rather agree with Jesus & the Holy Spirit than to side with the erroneous dictates of intellectual commentators & other misled folk.
---Leon on 8/3/15


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Yes Micha9344 I agree Jesus is GOD. But that is not the question.

Leon. Lk10:15 Mat11:23
This is not about Capernium going to hell as a literal city. It is about the people there will be judged.
What does the promise about the church have to do with this issue. Matt 16:18
Lk16:23 So you believe this parable is a true story? Why?

Please read it again and see that as many commentators agree it is a parable.



Acts 2:27-31 Jesus in hell.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/3/15


Sam: Sheol/hades had two compartments, i.e., one of blessings & one for pending judgment (Mat.11:23, 16:18 ~ Lk. 10:15, 16:23 ~ Acts 2:27-31). The Bible generally calls the abodes of the saved & the lost hades. The abode of the saved is also called Abraham's bosom (Lk. 16:22) & paradise (Lk. 23:43). The abode of the unsaved is called hell (hades in Lk. 16:23). Saved & the lost souls were separated by a great chasm (Lk. 16:26). When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol & later, from there, took the believers with Him to heaven (Eph. 4:8-10 ~ 1 Pt. 3:18-20). The judgment side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All lost souls still go there to await final judgment.
---Leon on 8/3/15


Psa 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?...
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Since Jesus is One in the Godhead, limiting Him to realms created by Him from our misinterpretations is madness and not proved by scripture.
---micha9344 on 8/3/15


The Problem Leon is the Bible says Jesus was in hell. Not Paradise. Paradise is only mentioned three times in the New Testament. It is not found in the Old Testament. So how do you get this doctrine. It places it in the New Jerusalem or Heaven.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So please show me the Bible verses that proves your understanding.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/2/15


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"Scripture describes Ab as a place of comfort (safe harbor/bay) a place near hell, where the souls of saints went." Where?
---joseph on 8/2/15


Sam: Paradise doesn't mean Heaven. I believe it's another way of saying Abraham's bosom (Ab). Scripture describes Ab as a place of comfort (safe harbor/bay) a place near hell, where the souls of saints went. It was a park/garden/Eden/"Paradise" separated by a chasm/gulf from the place of torment known as hell where lost souls go.

Jesus, Lazarus, the thief on the cross & all other saints who died before Jesus's ascension went to Paradise. There Jesus spoke with them all. When He ascended into Heaven, they accompanied Him.

Every born again believing soul since then, upon death,goes to Heaven. For the unsaved hell still receives their souls.
---Leon on 8/1/15


YES, are you suggesting Jesus is a Liar?

Could it not be you don't understand that Jesus doesn't have time in HIS lIFE He is bring us into with HIM.

We are in Jesus' ONE DAY.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/1/15


Correct Joseph.

Jesus went to hell.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

John 20:16,17
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni, which is to say, Master.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

He had not been to heaven when he was resurrected on Sunday. So how could he have been there on Friday/

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/1/15


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Jesus is not eternal?
---micha9344 on 8/1/15


/...as the Lord said, This day shalt thou be with Me in paradise...\-Athanasius 4th c.
/...and says To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise....\John Chrysostom 4th c.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
*Since Jesus said He would be with him in paradise "this day", I believe Him.
*"Today, I say" is not a euphemism used in the Bible.
---micha9344 on 8/1/15


"Did Jesus actually meet the thief in paradise the day He died on the cross?" No.
---joseph on 7/31/15


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