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Suffering In Hell

The Bible says that the wicked are not currently alive (Rev 20:5). How then could they be currently suffering in hell?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/24/15
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Mark Eaton The passage Josef quoted was about the Second Coming. When the angels do gather the Righteous.

In the Parable a story told to prove a point the righteous Lazarus was taken by an angel. Pointing to the true last event.

But the Lazarus the story pointed to was resurrected out of the grave after three days. Do you believe GOD called him out of Paradise back to this earth?

Nowhere does the Bible say "accept Christ" or "Sola scriptura" or "altar call" or "invitation hymn" or even ""computer".

Cluny The Bible says believe on Jesus Christ which is the same thing. Sola Scriptora is based on what scripture says. The other are not doctrines but just traditions.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/4/15


Would Jesus lie about what angels do?" No.
---Josef on 9/3/15

If you believe that Jesus told the truth about the angels, then where did the angels carry the poor man off to?

You and others here have said there is no life between our physical death and the resurrection. But Jesus describes such a place and even tells how we get there. If we accept Jesus as telling the truth, then you must accept what He says.

Or perhaps you will be like others and say "it is only a story" or that "Luke made this up".
---Mark_Eaton on 9/4/15


"Josef, those Angels are now as we speak IN HELL, WAITING THE FINAL JUDGEMENT." You are correct Kat, they are incarcerated, my mistake. Thanks
---Josef on 9/4/15


"In Revelation 20:5, the saying that the "...dead lived not again" simply means that, wherever they are right after they had died, be it Heaven or Hell, they will not arise again to LIVE UPON THE EARTH until after the 1,000-Year Reign of YAHUSHUA on Earth is over. Gordon, and you are basing this on what? Is there scripture to back it? We can continue this on the finish it here blog if this blog closes before you have opportunity to answer, because I am genuinely curious concerning how you came to this conclusion.
---Josef on 9/4/15


Josef, those Angels are now as we speak IN HELL, WAITING THE FINAL JUDGEMENT.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment,

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
---kathr4453 on 9/4/15




"So why then isn't the fate of those who have rejected Jesus Christ also secure." Kat that question was answered with the verse I quoted.
"Josef, are you saying those saved also have to be JUDGED to that fate?" No. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit seals the believe "unto the day of redemption". Eph 4:30
"We have Angels NOW chained somewhere in Hell waiting for their judgement. Is that unfair?" There are no Angels in hell. Fallen angels are simply bound in obscurity as concerning their error "until the day of judgment." At which time that error will be revealed to them, and they will be judged. Only Satan has been judged, as the son of perdition.
---Josef on 9/4/15


In Revelation 20:5, the saying that the "...dead lived not again" simply means that, wherever they are right after they had died, be it Heaven or Hell, they will not arise again to LIVE UPON THE EARTH until after the 1,000-Year Reign of YAHUSHUA on Earth is over.

The "being alive" refers to "being alive up on Earth" as opposed to being alive in Paradise above or Hell beneath.

This, because, the general perspective of mankind, Christian or heathen, is from the view of being alive on Earth during the general lifespan before man's common appointed time of death strikes.

So, Revelation 20:5 does not in any way negate one's being alive in Hell (or Heaven) after death.
---Gordon on 9/4/15


Cluny what does any of that have to do with the mortality or immortality of the soul, which is spoken of.
"While the phrase "immortal soul" is not in the Bible, the meaning is clear--the soul IS immortal, and cannot die". And that statement is based on what, exactly. Thanks
---Josef on 9/3/15


cluny: Nowhere does the Bible say "Orthodox" or "Church Fathers" or "transubstantiation" or "theotokos" or even "Sunday".

Then by your own reasoning, your Orthodox theology is vacuous.

And, for the umpteenth time, Sola Scriptura is indeed implied by:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I have a novel idea. Why don't you address the blog question?


---jerry6593 on 9/4/15


In order to be in either Heaven, or some place of torment, man would have to be judged to that fate. Judgement is yet future.
---------
---Josef on 9/3/15

Josef, are you saying those saved also have to be JUDGED to that fate? Jesus took my Judgement at the cross. My fate is secure. So why then isn't the fate of those who have rejected Jesus Christ also secure. We have Angels NOW chained somewhere in Hell waiting for their judgement. Is that unfair?
---kathr4453 on 9/4/15




Hell or hades is not the final judgement or is it the lake of fire. But let's ask this Josef,..... How many men/ women are on death row waiting their final judgement. Should we let them walk free until their appointed day? What about in Acts, when the Jews rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....did they not judge THEMSELVES unworthy of salvation? Jesus came to bring LIFE to an already dead/ LOST humanity through Adam's fall. And the Gospel of salvation has been known from the beginning..re Abel. Man is without excuse.
---kathr453 on 9/4/15


Monk Brendan, I never said immortality would not be granted.
---Josef on 9/3/15


\\"Leon nowhere in the bible does it use the phase "immortal soul". Nor is it stated, or implied that the soul is immortal."\\

Nowhere does the Bible say "accept Christ" or "Sola scriptura" or "altar call" or "invitation hymn" or even ""computer".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/15


"Jesus says that angels carried away the poor man but the rich man was only buried.".
Yes, "And [Jesus] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [At His return]. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Mat 24:31>Rev 20:5
Would Jesus lie about what angels do?" No.
---Josef on 9/3/15


No. That is not clear since GOD says he will destroy the soul of the wicked. Matthew 10:28

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

If we must seek for immortality and eternal life. We don't posses it.

I Corinthians is about the resurrection. Not going anywhere at death. In fact it says the dead are asleep. 15,18. It is also says no resurrection no life.

King Saul failed to follow and believe GOD. So why should we go by his understanding?

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus has them with physical parts. How would a drop of water quench a man on fire?

Lazarus was resurrected.

Believe the Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/3/15


Josef said, "Leon nowhere in the bible does it use the phase "immortal soul". Nor is it stated, or implied that the soul is immortal."

Proverbs 12:28 says In the way of righteousness there is life, along that path is immortality.

See also Rom 2:7, 1Cor 15:53-54,

While the phrase "immortal soul" is not in the Bible, the meaning is clear--the soul IS immortal, and cannot die.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/3/15


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the beggar DIED and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also DIED and was BURIED
---kathr4453 on 9/3/15

Does anyone notice a difference in the way Jesus describes what happened after the two men died?

Jesus says that angels carried away the poor man but the rich man was only buried. According to John 1:1, Jesus was with God (the Father) before the cosmos was created and Jesus created the angels. Therefore, Jesus would know what angels really do when people die.

So the question to all who say this is only a parable is: Would Jesus lie about what angels do?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/3/15


In order to be in either Heaven, or some place of torment, man would have to be judged to that fate. Judgement is yet future.
"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Jhn 12:48
---Josef on 9/3/15


Glen , Abraham's Bosom is just another name for Paradise. "TODAY you will be with me in paradise".

Also that is why it is called the SECOND DEATH. Those who are part of the first resurrection will not face the second death. The Lake of Fire where death and hades will also be thrown into.

Even OT as in Saul believed the soul did not die. Even though witchcraft was forbidden, Saul sought out a witch to summon Samuel who Saul knew was dead.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/15


I believe this is a parable about Abrahams seed

The wicked suffer flames in the lake of fire in the future, it makes no sense that they are burning, resurrected judged, then thrown into a fire again

Also, where did the pre Abraham saints go? Abrahams bosom before it even existed?
---glen on 9/3/15


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Luke 16:22-27

22 And it came to pass, that The beggar DIEDand was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also DIED and was BURIED 23 AND IN HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Listen to God's WORD.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/15


When the righteous in the OT died, their souls went to place called Abraham's Bosom AKA paradise. TODAY when the righteous die, we are IN CHRIST. Absent from the body is to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD. Paul was torn from wanting to go home to BE WITH the Lord, or stay here. He said it was better to stay so he could preach the Gospel. Paul did not have a desire to be EXTINQUISHED until the first resurrection.

Jesus words in Luke is NOT a parable, but a FACT, using a REAL PLACE and REAL PEOPLE.
Hebrews 12 also back up, that in HEAVEN is the Church of the First Born, and the spirits of Just men made perfect.
Only those who's eyes have been opened can see this truth.
---kathr453 on 9/3/15


Joe: No! While it's very true man did receive breath from God, God GAVE His spirit/breath to us. That's doesn't mean we'd be extensions of God the Creator. Though very dependent upon Him, He made us to be independently functioning (free will) "spirit" creatures in His likeness. God is Spirit!

Spirit man & soul aren't "trapped" inside the physical body. They're integral functioning parts of we humans.

Like Jesus died physically on the cross, so too we die physically. Yet Jesus remained alive spiritually & He went (like He said) into paradise with the repentant thief in tow. Since Adam, we've been spiritually dead, but in Jesus, we who believe in Him, are made spiritual alive.
---Leon on 9/2/15


Jerry: Rev. 20:5 speaks of "resurrection". That means spirits & souls, in the 1st resurrection, enter into their newly made bodies out of the dust of the ground/grave. They're incorruptible physical bodies made to receive rewards. But, for purpose of judgment & further punishment, the wicked come up out of the torments of the grave/hell, during the 2d resurrection, in the same old corruptible physical bodies they died in.

Rev. 20:5 says the wicked aren't alive "in their physical bodies" until such time as they're called to judgment. Make no mistake, their tormented spirits/souls are alive (conscious) the whole time they're awaiting resurrection just like Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31.
---Leon on 9/2/15


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The first post that appears under my name on 9/2 was not meant to be posted. I apparently hit the send button inadvertently, the references were incomplete, and were simply a note to myself.
---Josef on 9/2/15


"Please note that the "breath of life" breathed into the body is HIS spirit - NOT YOUR soul. Thus there is no personal spirit or soul trapped inside you that is freed at death. It is God's own spirit that returns to Him at death - not yours." Exactly.
Father breaths life into man and gives man an awareness of his portion, or share in life, he becomes a living soul. When a man dies, the life he has been granted returns to the Father, and that man is no longer aware that he ever possessed life, or anything else for that matter, until he is raised from the dead, and his soul is restored.
---Josef on 9/2/15


Jerry: If what you say is true, what was Jesus talking about in the parable of the rich man & Lazarus? "What" opened it's eyes in hell? Also, what part of man did God make in His likeness? Was it our flesh, our soul (mind) OR "spirit"? GOD IS SPIRIT!

God's breath (Spirit) brought Adam to life & gave him conscious awareness. God later quickens our dead (separated from God) "spirit" (that part of us that immediately died/degenerated when Adam sinned). God regenerates our spirit when we "believe" on His Son Jesus Christ.

Ecc. 12:7, Job 14:12 & Ps. 146:4 references the death of the physical body after the "consciously aware" spirit/soul has departed it.
---Leon on 9/2/15


"Please note that the "breath of life" breathed into the body is HIS spirit - NOT YOUR soul. Thus there is no personal spirit or soul trapped inside you that is freed at death. It is God's own spirit that returns to Him at death - not yours." Exactly.
Father breaths life into man and gives man an awareness of his portion, or share in life, he becomes a living soul. When a man dies, the life he has been granted returns to the Father, and that man is no longer aware that he ever possessed life, or anything else for that matter, until he is raised from the dead, and his soul is restored. Ecc 9:6>Ecc 9:9>Psa 17:14
---Josef on 9/2/15


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Leon: Please note that the "breath of life" breathed into the body is HIS spirit - NOT YOUR soul. Thus there is no personal spirit or soul trapped inside you that is freed at death. It is God's own spirit that returns to Him at death - not yours.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.


---jerry6593 on 9/2/15


3.The spirit, in the physical body, ... That consciousness is our free will, emotions & intellect aka "SOUL".Leon

First two points agree. You change here a important point. The Soul is a combination of body and Spirit as it points out in Genesis 2:7.

Both Spirit and Body must be combined in one for the soul to exist. When the connection is disrupted the soul as such does not exist. But the first time this happens is a temporary condition. Spirits and bodies are reunited to be souls at the first and second resurrection.

But the souls in the second resurrection will die the second death. They will then cease to exist.

In the meantime we are said to be asleep. Read I Corinthians 15.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/2/15


Sam: Yes we are, no doubt, living souls. But you didn't answer my question. We are indeed

1.) physical "body" (dust of the ground) beings of whom

2.) God breathed His Spirit into man's nostrils. By doing so, man was made "spirit" in the likeness of God.

3.) The spirit, in the physical body, was given consciousness/awareness by God's breath (Spirit). That consciousness is our free will, emotions & intellect aka "SOUL".
---Leon on 9/1/15


Leon we are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Body plus breath of life is a soul. The word for soul is often translated person. SOS is the old emergency code for save our souls.

Good points Jerry.

Kathyr 1Corithians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus is GOD and Human. So his death is not like ours. GOD cannot die. You will notice in 1Corithians that resurrection is pointed to for us coming to life. Why?

No one answered what Second death means.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/1/15


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To those who think that people are immortal and will continue to exist, even without bodies, no matter what, consider:

(1) Only God Himself possesses innate immortality.

1Ti 6:16 [God] Who ONLY hath immortality

(2) Immortality is only conferred on humans at the resurrection at the return of Christ.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


---jerry6593 on 9/1/15


///Leon the Bible never says Souls are immortal. That is not in the Bible.

GOD also specifically says He will destroy souls or people in the lake of fire.

Read 1Corinthians 3:17 15:26
Revelations 11:18 Mark 1:24 1John 3:8 James 4:12

Revelations 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Read vs. 54 also.

Second death means what?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/31/15///

Sam: What is the soul?
---Leon on 8/31/15


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
-The beast and the false prophet are human?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
-The 2nd resurrection, humans brought from death and judged.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
-No more death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
-Where 2 humans already are forever?
---micha9344 on 8/31/15


Samuel, the bible never says a soul is mortal. Do you believe Jesus died? And you say His soul was extinguished at that time? The Bible clearly says of Jesus...thou will not leave my soul in hell. No God didn't, and with His soul intact God raised Him from the DEAD. If you believe Jesus was fully God FULLY MAN, then Jesus had/ has a soul. Is it the soul that was created in the image of God? Couldn't be our body. Couldn't be our spirit. The first Adam was a life giving SOUL. The Last Adam, Jesus Christ is that Life Giving Spirit. The first man was earthly.....NOT spiritual as 1 Corinthians 15 clearly tell us.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/15


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Leon the Bible never says Souls are immortal. That is not in the Bible.

GOD also specifically says He will destroy souls or people in the lake of fire.

Read 1Corinthians 3:17 15:26
Revelations 11:18 Mark 1:24 1John 3:8 James 4:12

Revelations 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Read vs. 54 also.

Second death means what?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/31/15


"However, nowhere in the Bible does it say immortal souls are actually destroyed."
Leon nowhere in the bible does it use the phase "immortal soul". Nor is it stated, or implied that the soul is immortal.
However, consider this, "For Moses [speaking of Jesus] truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me, Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Act 3:22-23
---Josef on 8/31/15


Kathryn, if the soul can be destroyed in hell fire, then it is not immortal, right?
---learner2 on 8/30/15

L2: The focus should be placed specifically on the One who is able, if He so desires, to destroy souls in hell. That One is Creator God. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say immortal souls are actually destroyed in hell. To the contrary, unregenerated spirits (accompanied by their lost souls) are first rejoined to their physical bodies that come out of the grave & go through the White Throne Judgment before being cast alive into the Lake of Fire "forever".
---Leon on 8/30/15


Cluny: "The context is that the parent shall not be punished for the sins of the children, or vice versa."

Right. So don't you consider that both parents and children are "persons" and not "spooks" as you are trying to prove?



Kathr: "Jerry, hell is not the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not spend 3 days in the Lake of Fire."

Correct! Hell (Gr: hades) is the grave - nothing more.


---jerry6593 on 8/31/15


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You can say that about that the Ezekiel verse. But not Genesis.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Kathy Matthew 10:28 shows the soul can be destroyed.

When are souls destroyed. Not at our fist death because all are resurrected. We are soul and everyone will be resurrected.

But there is a second death where souls are destroyed.

Born once die twice. Born Twice die once.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/30/15


Kathryn, if the soul can be destroyed in hell fire, then it is not immortal, right?
---learner2 on 8/30/15


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We see here there is a body AND a soul. Two different entities. If we are not to fear anyone who can kill our body, but are not able to kill the soul, then the body and soul are not one in the same.

Jerry, hell is not the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not spend 3 days in the Lake of Fire. That is the 2nd death, where death and hades will also be thrown in the lake of fire.....where the worm dies not.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/15


\\The context of the subject verses in Ezekiel is indeed that "souls" are "persons",\\

No, it is not.

The context is that the parent shall not be punished for the sins of the children, or vice versa.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/15


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Kathryn, what do you think Jesus meant when he referred to the soul?
---learner2 on 8/30/15


Cluny & Learner: "You are taking the verse out of context."

I disagree. The context of the subject verses in Ezekiel is indeed that "souls" are "persons", consistent with Gen 2:7, and that those that sin will die, consistent with Rom 6:23 - "the wages of sin is death". What is out of context is the pagan Greek philosophy that the soul is ONLY the breath and is capable of living outside the body as a spook. You have been so long steeped in this error that the truth of the Bible is not comprehended by you.


---jerry6593 on 8/30/15


Cluny is right, that Ezekiel verse was quoted egregiously out if context. Even so, the human soul doesn't remain alive without a body. Believing it does is Platonism.
---learner2 on 8/29/15

Learner2, are you saying Jesus was brainwashed by Plato Philisophy when talking to others in the Book of Luke....Lazarus ..Abraham....or are you talking about Platonism in metaphysics?

Jesus came to SAVE OUR SOULS.
Jesus also,said.." Thou wilt not LEAVE my SOUL in Hell.....hell meaning Sheol, same as in Luke.

Don't worry folks, JESUS MUST HAVE BEEN A PLATONISTS TOO.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/15


"Cluny is right, that Ezekiel verse was quoted egregiously out if context."
In what way? Please explain the quote to the rest of us, in context. Thanks
---josef on 8/30/15


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Cluny is right, that Ezekiel verse was quoted egregiously out if context. Even so, the human soul doesn't remain alive without a body. Believing it does is Platonism.
---learner2 on 8/29/15


\\Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.



---jerry6593 on 8/29/15\\

You are taking the verse out of context. Here "soul" is used is the synecdoche--the part for the whole.

Doesn't it bother you? Or do you think the Bible verses were written as stand alone units?

Glory to JEsus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/15


Richard: "Bodies die, soul not"

The Bible disagrees:

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.



---jerry6593 on 8/29/15


No scripture ever says "mortal soul". Man was created mortal. Angels were created immortal. Man was created lower than the Angels. God is immortal. Jesus is immortal.

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lust.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Corinthians 4:11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/15


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\\Sam: The Holy Spirit backs my understanding of the Bible?\\

///Where did you get that notion?

Every sectarian and heretic from Cerintus onwards has said the same thing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/15///

Cluny: You're wise ONLY IN YOUR OWN EYES. Give it a rest & repent! smh
---Leon on 8/28/15


\\Sam: The Holy Spirit backs my understanding of the Bible?\\

Where did you get that notion?

Every sectarian and heretic from Cerintus onwards has said the same thing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/15


2 Thessalonians 1:8,9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,

Destruction gets rid of something so it no longer exists.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/28/15


Isaiah 26:14 - They are dead they shall not live, they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou destroyed them, and made all the memory perish,

( Some say these are false gods - at this point I don't )

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living knowing they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither any more reward : for the memory is forgotten,

( Fine these two verse interesting - living - I believe is a reference to those who are saved Refer - John 11:26 - Bodies die, soul not - Dead the wicked - memory - is forgotten - perish - dead body and soul , Refer Matthew 10:28 - No more Reward - Saved get Reward - Refer Matthew 5:12 )
---Richardc on 8/28/15


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Glenn: "jerry6593: You wrongly equate body and soul."

You wrongly assert my equating. I assert, as does Samuel, the Biblical definition, as:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

A soul is a complete person - body + breath of life from God. Any other definition is contrary to the Bible, and hence, false.



---jerry6593 on 8/28/15


Sam: The Holy Spirit backs my understanding of the Bible? Trust Him to guide you in understanding Scripture.
---Leon on 8/27/15


jerry6593: You wrongly equate body and soul. Please consider attempting to understand a position contrary to your own. Revelations 20:5 "But the rest of the dead (G3498 nekros corpse) lived not again until".... Had John wanted to use dianoia, kardia, psyche - Mark 12:30, or pneuma - Acts 7:59, he would have.
Matthew 25:46 "everlasting punishment", Mark 9:44, 46, 48 G846 autos "their", Luke 16:19-31 "rich man", 2Thessalonians 1:8-9 "everlasting destruction", 1Peter 3:18-20 "spirits in prison", Jude 1:7 "vengeance of eternal fire", Revelations 14:10-11 "for ever and ever".
---Glenn on 8/27/15


It is not what we think Leon but what does the Bible say, that is important.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Souls are not immortal they die. Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Use a Bible search engine. Put is soul die.

Then put in Spirit body. this is one of the verse's you get.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What backs your understanding from the Bible?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/27/15


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"Joe: Our soul is God's Spirit infused breathe that enables us to have free will, emotions & intellect. In other words, the MIND (cognition) that functions in the physical body's command and control center, aka the brain. Never confuse the spirit mind (immortal soul) with the physical brain. Breathe is not physical?
---Leon on 8/27/15"


Leon I could very well be mistaken, I make no claim to infallibility. It is for each of us to determine and establish within ourselves, what we as individuals believe to be true. I can only share from the understanding that I have been given. Thank you for your attempt to correct that understanding. Keep sharing and caring.
---Josef on 8/27/15


///..."The human soul is naturally mortal, for "this mortal must put on immortality" 1Co 15:53 Therefore "eternal life" is granted by God as a gift." "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom.6:23
---Josef on 8/26/15///

Joe: Our soul is God's Spirit infused breathe that enables us to have free will, emotions & intellect. In other words, the MIND (cognition) that functions in the physical body's command and control center, aka the brain. Never confuse the spirit mind (immortal soul) with the physical brain. Breathe is not physical?
---Leon on 8/27/15


Thank you Samuel, yes, "conditional immortality as a concept of salvation in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ", is exactly what I believe. "The human soul is naturally mortal, for "this mortal must put on immortality" 1Co 15:53 Therefore "eternal life" is granted by God as a gift." "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom.6:23
---Josef on 8/26/15


Sam: Your "problem" is you think IF it's not a physical "tongue" it's not real & therefore incapable of thirsting. But, JESUS SAID the man thirsted. Obviously, he did so in his "spirit man" that housed his "non-physical" soul (will, emotions & intellect: MIND).

For any thirsty person, a little water goes far towards improving one's condition versus having no water at all.

The fire burning the rich man wasn't from without but from within. He was consumed/tormented by regret & a "burning desire" to tell his kin about the hellacious consequences of sin.

You seriously underestimate the abilities of our spirit bodies. We're made in God's image! God is a Spirit!!!
---Leon on 8/26/15


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Wikipedia

In Christian theology, conditionalism or conditional immortality is a concept of special salvation in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ. This doctrine is based in part upon another theological argument, that if the human soul is naturally mortal, immortality ("eternal life") is therefore granted by God as a gift. This viewpoint stands in contrast to the more popular doctrine of the "natural immortality" of the soul. Conditionalism is usually paired with mortalism and annihilationism, the belief that the unsaved will be ultimately destroyed and cease to exist, rather than suffer unending torment in hell.

This doctrine has been around since 200 AD.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/26/15


Samuel, what exactly is conditionalism.
---Josef on 8/26/15


The Problem Leon is that in the Parable the rich man has a real tounge and a single drop of water will help him even though he is being burned. Think of putting out a full blown house fire with a bucket of water. It would not work. Much less that Lazarus would need a physical finger to put in the water.

Cluny it is not a game. It is using proper english. There are many non SDA's who believe in conditional-ism.

Dr. Edward Fudge for instance. You should watch him on you tube sometime.

If the wicked don't die. Then how can the suffer the Second Death? Revelation 20:14

Why would a thief suffer the same punishment as Hitler. In fact why would a thief who died 2,000 years before Hitler get tortured longer?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/25/15


There are two resurrections. The first is when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. The second resurrection is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works - some to everlasting life, some to everlasting death. Blessed are they that rise at the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 8/25/15


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Leon: "Rev. 20:5 speaks only of the physical body."

No it doesn't! Here's the whole thing:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There is no mention of a "physical body". You are adding words to the very book that says:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

The fact is that whether a person (body + breath of God) or just a spook, the wicked dead are not alive until 1000 years later.


---jerry6593 on 8/26/15


"Josef, are you SDA?" No.
---Josef on 8/25/15


\\The wages of sin, or the eternal punishment, (as opposed to punishing), for refusing Jesus' payment, is death.\\

Josef, are you SDA? That's EXACTLY the word game they play.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/15


Revelation 20,10 - And the devil that that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever,

After
Judgment day there is no more day and night - the celestial clock has been stop !

Refer Revelation 10:6 and Isaiah
60:19 - 20
---Richardc on 8/24/15


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Jerry: Rev. 20:5 speaks only of the physical body. Jesus said, in the parable of the rich man & Lazarus, the body dies BUT the combined spirit man & soul go either to Paradise (heaven) or hell. There's no suffering in heaven. However, hell is a place of torment for the wicked.
---Leon on 8/24/15


If you really want to know, I'm sure you'll find out, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/15


Jerry no one is currently suffering in hell. The wages of sin, or the eternal punishment, (as opposed to punishing), for refusing Jesus' payment, is death. After the wicked are casted into the lake of fire "they are dead, they shall not 'live', (be revived or restored) [again]. They are 'deceased', (from its root, caused to cease, to be wholly consumed) they shall not rise: [Therefore the Father will have] 'visited' (judged) and 'destroyed them' (8045-Strongs-brought[them] to nothing) & made all their memory to perish." Isa 26:14 The wicked will no longer be remembered or mentioned for the eternity, "they shall be as though they had not been." Oba 1:16
---Josef on 8/24/15


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