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Finish It Here September 2015

FINISH IT HERE ~ SEPTEMBER 2015

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 ---Leon on 9/2/15
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\\Wow. I am shocked by your statement.\\

So were most of the people of John 6, who said, "This is a hard saying, we cannot bear it," and walked with Jesus no more over this very issue.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/22/15


**Takes a wide gate for that many.**

Like the wide gate for the many who believe the Bible is the Word of God?
---Cluny on 9/18/15

Your avoidance every day, of the usage or posting witnesses in scripture i.e. the Bible are notable. As in all denominations today.
Utilizing all witnesses provided is a narrow and strait gate. Christ used all the prophets for witness. But the foolish, blind organizations of men resist them. As in his day and the days preceding him. You google history of orthomen but, not men historically and prophetically authorized of GOD.

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, many there be which go in thereat:
---Trav on 9/22/15


when the people looked at it, they were healed. Not a symbol, but a Grace. The same with Moses striking the rock
---Monk_Brendan on 9/21/15

One last attempt.

The bronze serpent did not heal anyone, God did. The rock did not provide water, God did. Being immersed in water does not make us buried with Jesus, God does that. Taking the Eucharist does not make us worthy of Jesus blood and body, God does that.

Do you see the pattern? All these are symbols of what God will do, or has already done. All we are required to do is to obey, trust God, and believe.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/22/15


Mark Eaton said, "What about the bronze serpent or Moses striking the rock? These were just symbols...of obedience. The same...baptism and the Eucharist. Both are symbols of obedience."

When Moses had the bronze serpent raised, and when the people looked at it, they were healed. Not a symbol, but a Grace. The same with Moses striking the rock. Water gushed out. If nothing had happened, then it would have been a symbol. However, Moses was disobedient, in that God told him to speak to the rock,not strike it.

Baptism and the Eucharist are two of the Mysteries that God has given us as Grace filled events to make our lives in Christ easier to live.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/21/15


How can they sin if it is just a symbol, or a memorial? Only if it is the Body and Blood of Christ could they sin against it.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/20/15

Wow. I am shocked by your statement.

What about the bronze serpent or Moses striking the rock? These were just symbols but symbols of obedience. The same applies to baptism and the Eucharist. Both are symbols of obedience.

But what about 1 Cor. 11:26? This verse seems to explain why (other than Jesus told us) we perform the Eucharist in the first place.

1 Cor. 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lords death until He comes"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/21/15




Mark Eaton said, "Please show me where one Apostle taught that the bread and the wine were the true body and blood of Jesus. Or one Apostle that taught about the "real presence" within the Eucharist."

Paul, in 1 Cor 11 said, 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

How can they sin if it is just a symbol, or a memorial? Only if it is the Body and Blood of Christ could they sin against it.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/20/15


Kathr said, "YET we read Jesus words....so you agree it is just the fruit of the vine now and will be then. I believe that is what the verse is clarifying."

No, Kathr. The verse in question says But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

In this verse, Jesus is talking about the Eucharist, and not about wine in general.

However, the Kingdom of God (not heaven) began at the Resurrection of Jesus, and continues to this day.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/19/15


\\Samuel BB said, "No man can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus."\\

I agree, Samuel.

That's why we Orthodox believe the Change (our preferred word) is accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/18/15


\\Please show me where one Apostle taught that the bread and the wine were the true body and blood of Jesus. Or one Apostle that taught about the "real presence" within the Eucharist.\\

The bread which WE break, is it not the communion of the Body of Christ? The Cup of Blessing [a technical Jewish term] which WE bless, is it not the communion of the Blood of Christ? 1 Cor 7.

**Takes a wide gate for that many.**

Like the wide gate for the many who believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/18/15


But what is this belief based on?
Please show me where one Apostle taught that the bread and the wine were the true body and blood of Jesus. Or one Apostle that taught about the "real presence" within the Eucharist.

No, it was after the time of the Apostles that these ideas came forward. it was the Patristic Fathers who developed these teachings.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/15

He cannot. Unleavened bread...Israel. Blood sacrifice...Israel. Twelve Apostles...Israel. Christ himself and the covenant this blood was shed for...Israel. Prophets were Israel and prophecied to Israel. He has never confessed this most simple evident truth even.
Gen_17:7,9, Psa_105:10, Isa 59:21, Heb_8:7.
---Trav on 9/18/15




This is not my interpretation, but that of millions (if not billions)...
---Cluny on 9/17/15

Takes a wide gate for that many.

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

You and "many", find comfort surrounded by the crowd.
---Trav on 9/18/15


but that of millions (if not billions) of Christians from Pentecost to today, and ALL of them (except Berengarius) before the 16th century.
---Cluny on 9/17/15

But what is this belief based on? Please show me where one Apostle taught that the bread and the wine were the true body and blood of Jesus. Or one Apostle that taught about the "real presence" within the Eucharist.

No, it was after the time of the Apostles that these ideas came forward. it was the Patristic Fathers who developed these teachings.

Whether you agree or not, I look at the teachings of the Patristic Fathers in the same way I look at the Talmud or Mishna. They are good for enlightenment but are not authentic Scripture.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/15


The people in heaven have no need for the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, as they stand in the absolute, pure glory of His Love.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/17/15

YET we read Jesus words....so you agree it is just the fruit of the vine now and will be then. I believe that is what the verse is clarifying.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/15


Kathr said, "Will Jesus and the rest of us be drinking His own Blood and eating Jesus literal body in Heaven too?
I don't think so."


The people in heaven have no need for the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, as they stand in the absolute, pure glory of His Love.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/17/15


\\I have no argument with Jesus or the words of Jesus, just your interpretation of them. \\

This is not my interpretation, but that of millions (if not billions) of Christians from Pentecost to today, and ALL of them (except Berengarius) before the 16th century.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/17/15


27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it,

Matthew 26: 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Will Jesus and the rest of us be drinking His own Blood and eating Jesus literal body in Heaven too?
I don't think so.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/15


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Samuel BB said, "No man can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus."

However, Samuel, you forget that Jesus is true God and true man. And HE can do anything.

And the Holy Spirit, not a man, turns the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/16/15


Thank you Mark Eaton You said it better then I could.

GOD bless and keep you.

Cluny Agape to you.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/16/15


If you don't like this--if it's not spiritual enough for you--go argue with Jesus about it, not us.
---Cluny on 9/15/15

I have no argument with Jesus or the words of Jesus, just your interpretation of them.

I have no reason to doubt that Jesus meant us to remember His death with the Eucharist. And I have no reason to doubt that Jesus meant us to eat His body and drink His blood during the Eucharist.

My argument with you is in the word remembrance or anamnesis. The idea of making present that which is being commemorated is where we differ. I asked you about Hebrews 10:3, where amamnesis is also used. Your silence makes me believe that your definition of amamnesis changes with the passage it is used in.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/15


\\And how do you eat His flesh and drink His blood?

It cannot be the Eucharist.\\

Yes, it is.

\\ If it was the Eucharist, then you would be saying that anyone who participates in the Eucharist is saved by their participation in the Eucharist.\\

That's what Jesus said. Those who eat His flesh and drink His blood in the Eucharist shall live because of Him.

If you don't like this--if it's not spiritual enough for you--go argue with Jesus about it, not us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/15


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And which food will endure forever and have everlasting life? "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day" ---Ruben on 9/14/15

And how do you eat His flesh and drink His blood?

It cannot be the Eucharist. If it was the Eucharist, then you would be saying that anyone who participates in the Eucharist is saved by their participation in the Eucharist. And that is nowhere in Scripture.

No, the correct response to the question of how do you eat His flesh and drink His blood is belief in Jesus with the continual abiding in Him. That endures forever and gives you eternal life.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/15


That's why I said only spiritual discernment understands this--something you obviously lack.
---Cluny on 9/14/15

Then explain it to us. Enlighten me if no one else.

I am always eager to learn. I want to understand what this is and why you believe it. It seems unscriptural to me and to be a doctrine of men. I believe the Apostles did not teach this but the Patristic Fathers developed this.

But I can be wrong and I would like to know. So teach sir!
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/15


Right the physical attributes of the Bread remain the same. So it is not in reality the body and blood of Jesus.

It is in a Spiritual symbolic sense that it is.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/15/15


Mark_Eaton* but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.

And which food will endure forever and have everlasting life?

" Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day" v 6:5


Mark_Eaton* The context is about who Jesus is and not about Jesus body and blood,

Really, lets see:

This bread is my flesh v51'
Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man v53
Whoever eats my flesh v54
For my flesh is true food v54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me v 55
The one who feeds on me will have life v57
---Ruben on 9/14/15


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\\To which I say again sounds like Harry Potter's spell of transfiguration, turning one physical thing into another. \\

And this has nothing to do with Harry Potter, because the PHYSICAL attributes of the bread and wine remain the same.

That's why I said only spiritual discernment understands this--something you obviously lack.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/15


That's because spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
---Cluny on 9/11/15

Is that the best answer you have?

You are not talking about spiritual things, you are talking about physical things. You are talking about the substance of the bread and wine being transposed with the substance of Jesus body and blood.

Substance: "the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence"

To which I say again sounds like Harry Potter's spell of transfiguration, turning one physical thing into another.

But let me ask you a question. Did the Apostles teach this or did the Patristic Fathers?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/14/15


\\We are saved by Grace alone. \\

How is this grace given to us?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/15


Trav thanks for meaning, but do you have understanding of discussion?
Don't forget Christians are grafted in to Israel not the other way around.
---john9346 on 9/9/15

It appears this understanding is over your head unfortunately. Start with these facts. Scriptures are given to Israel from GOD, written by Israel, too Israel, for Israel.
The grafting you misunderstand is the divorced house of Israel with Judah. See the two sticks and Heb 8:8.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,...
It is the multiple witnesses context... you are overlooking.
Your context has no context or criptural witnesses.
---Trav on 9/14/15


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What does Jesus say to do about his blood?
---Ruben on 9/11/15

You are wanting to take this passage out of context. What is the context of the passage and remember CIE - Context is everything.

John 6:26-27 "Jesus answered them and said, Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.

The context is about who Jesus is and not about Jesus body and blood, not about the last supper and not about the Eucharist.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/14/15


I don't mind the answer Cluny.

I just reject the reasoning and lack of scriptural meaning behind it.

No man can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Symbolic terms have symbolic meaning. We are saved by Grace alone. Through the the death of Christ alone. We have one High Priest and that is Jesus. We are not saved by communion.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/14/15


\\Question- Did he give us bread or his flesh on the cross?\\

He gave His physical body on the cross, and He gives us His flesh and blood to eat and drink under the appearances of bread and wine in the Eucharist.

You may not like the answer to your question, but there it is.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/15


Mark_Eaton Look at this:

John 6:51
Look at this:

The very next verse Jesus says " This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world'

Question- Did he give us bread or his flesh on the cross?

Mark_Eaton *John 6:40 believes in Him will have eternal life..."

belief = bread = eternal life

I would say belief-eat my flesh= eternal

Where does Jesus say to eat his bread?

Mark_Eaton* John 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him"

John 15:10 " you will abide in My love, .... My Fathers commandments and abide in His love"

Obedience = blood = abiding

What does Jesus say to do about his blood?
---Ruben on 9/11/15


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\\Sounds like Harry Potter to me. \\

That's because spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/15


What was Jesus answer to this question??
---Ruben on 9/11/15

Look at this:

John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven, if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever..."

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life..."

belief = bread = eternal life

John 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him"

John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Fathers commandments and abide in His love"

Obedience = blood = abiding
---Mark_Eaton on 9/11/15


John 6:57,58
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

By saying he lived in the father and was a loaf of bread.

Now do you believe Jesus was a literal loaf of bread? Did he live inside the father physically or spiritually?

Does Jesus live in us spiritually or is there a little physical man inside of us?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/11/15


Thanks for the clarification John.
---Rita_H on 9/11/15


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These passages describe profiting from eating flesh and drinking blood. This is what we are to do regarding Jesus death. Profit from it. Not literally eat Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/15

When they ask Jesus , ' How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?'

What was Jesus answer to this question??
---Ruben on 9/11/15


Rita you asked, "In which part of THE BIBLE did St. Ignatius of Antioch find these words?"

First, the quote is not referring to transubstantiation.

In context, he is defending against docetism which believed Jesus did not exist physically.



"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again."

Ignatius letter to the Smyrnaeans chapter 6.
---john9346 on 9/10/15


by the action of the Holy Spirit, the bread and wine DO become the Body and Blood of Jesus. ---Monk_Brendan on 9/9/15

Sounds like Harry Potter to me.

Ps. 27:2 "When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell"

1 Chron. 11:19 "And said, My God forbid it me, that I should do this thing: shall I drink the blood of these men that have put their lives in jeopardy? for with the jeopardy of their lives they brought it. Therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mightiest"

These passages describe profiting from eating flesh and drinking blood. This is what we are to do regarding Jesus death. Profit from it. Not literally eat Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/15


\\All I know is what I read from other sources with the definition being that the bread and the wine become the "body and blood" of Jesus during the ceremony. \\

And what you know from this reading is wrong.

Transubstantiation is an attempt to explain HOW the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

The SUBSTANCE (what really makes something what it is) of the bread and wine is replaced by the SUBSTANCE of the Body and Blood of Christ, the appearance and taste of the bread and wine remaining the same.

Orthodoxy has never committed herself to this explanation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/10/15


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Mark Eaton said, "I also challenge the idea of transubstantiation."

Challenge it all you want to. I personally do not know how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. All I know is that by the action of the Holy Spirit, the bread and wine DO become the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/9/15


Trav, of course, NEVER presents confused doctrines, does he.
---Cluny on 9/5/15

Which Prophet confused you Cluny? Jeremiah?
Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD, If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth,
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
---Trav on 9/9/15


ANAMNESIS means more than a mental remembrance. It is an actual making present of that which is being commemorated--in this case, Christ Himself.
---Cluny on 9/8/15

I see no such definition anywhere.

The word is only used in Hebrews 10:3 (outside of the last supper passages).

Heb. 10:3 "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year"

In context, the Hebrews 10 passage talks about remembering and a consciousness of sins, both mental faculties.

Or are you saying that in Hebrews 10 passage, the past sins were being made present when the sacrifice for sin was being made?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/15


Good point Mark Eaton. The Bible is full of physical metaphores to describe spiritual events. If the wine actually became human blood and the bread actually became flesh, then does that mean that Adam and Eve's eyes were actually physically sealed shut prior to their eating of the fruit and their "eyes were opened amd they knew good from evil"? Surely not. This was a metaphore for their spiritual enlightenment.
---Jed on 9/9/15


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And I really doubt that you know what "transsubstantiation" actually means.
---Cluny on 9/8/15

Thanks for that.

As you suspect, I do not "know" with an experiential knowledge what transubstantiation is nor do I understand what your "Mystery" is. All I know is what I read from other sources with the definition being that the bread and the wine become the "body and blood" of Jesus during the ceremony.

But, if we read in John 6:35 with the literal understanding that we read any of the last supper passages, then Believers will never hunger or thirst again.

Also, do you think that the wine and bread became the body and blood of Jesus to the Apostles on the Last Supper?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/15


If they are not there could this be 'adding to God's Word" - something we are warned NOT to do? ---Rita_H on 9/7/15

How convenient that you left 1/2 of the warning.

Bible also states not to SUBTRACT from God's Words, which your Bible does in omitting 7 books from the OT.

Revelation 22:19

BTW, John chapter 6 from Jesus own Lips tell us the Bread and the Wine is His Body and Blood.
No adding from us, but OBEYING.

Please tell me where in the Bible explaining your acceptance, and reading a Bible with MISSING WORDS OF GOD?

Since there is a complete Bible you can CHOOSE to read.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/8/15


\\Take eat, this is my body" and that the wine was "the new covenant in My blood" but as we read in 1 Cor. 11 ONLY, that we do this in remembrance of Him. \\

Actually the Greek word ANAMNESIS means more than a mental remembrance.

It is an actual making present of that which is being commemorated--in this case, Christ Himself.

And I really doubt that you know what "transsubstantiation" actually means.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/15


Rita H. said, ""The Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ." He also said elsewhere, "Having nothing to do with the heretics that deny this."

In which part of THE BIBLE did St. Ignatius of Antioch find these words?

If they are not there could this be 'adding to God's Word" - something we are warned NOT to do?"


To answer your question about St. Ignatius finding the words you are talking about, here is a partial list:
Matt 26:26
Mark 14:22
Luke 22:19
John 6:51
And on...and on...etc.

About the heretic,
Titus 3:9-11 KJV

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/8/15


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I also notice you did not challenge the quote from St. Clement of Alexandria. Why?
---Cluny on 9/8/15

I also challenge the idea of transubstantiation.

1 Cor. 12:27 "Now you are Christs body, and individually members of it"

After the ascension, the church has been called the Body of Christ.

Jesus did say, Take eat, this is my body" and that the wine was "the new covenant in My blood" but as we read in 1 Cor. 11 ONLY, that we do this in remembrance of Him.

Jesus also said that He was the living water and the living bread of heaven but no one thinks that we are drinking or eating Jesus when we drink water or eat bread.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/8/15


\\Next time you attend please introduce yoursel-f/ves.\\

I don't know how many people you think I am, but I can assure you I'm only one person, and use only ONE screen name here.

I also notice you did not challenge the quote from St. Clement of Alexandria. Why?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/15


Rita_H:

You said: In the four years I have attended my present church I have NEVER heard those words used. If you or your alter ego have ever attended my church and heard those words please enlighten me as to who said them. Next time you attend please introduce yoursel-f/ves.

I've heard them in many different evangelical churches over the years.

By "alter ego", are you insinuating that Cluny and I are the same person? Others have suggested that. We're close friends, and we agree on somethings, but disagree on others. We live about 6 miles from each other. He's Orthodox, and I'm not. He was raised Baptist, and I was raised Catholic.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/15


"In the same place that your church finds "accept Christ" and "personal Savior", to say nothing about invitation hymns, revivals, and altar calls."

"...anyone who asks "do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?" would be similarly condemned, since that phrase isn't in the Bible either."

In the four years I have attended my present church I have NEVER heard those words used. If you or your alter ego have ever attended my church and heard those words please enlighten me as to who said them. Next time you attend please introduce yoursel-f/ves.
---Rita_H on 9/8/15


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Rita_H:

You wrote: In which part of THE BIBLE did St. Ignatius of Antioch find these words?

If they are not there could this be 'adding to God's Word" - something we are warned NOT to do?


First, the Bible was originally a bunch of separate scrolls, not one single volume. Binding it into a single codex came much later. The warning is specific to Revelation (although one could take it as good advice for the others).

Second, he wasn't "adding it to the Bible". He was just teaching it. If you extend your logic, anyone who asks "do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?" would be similarly condemned, since that phrase isn't in the Bible either.
---StrongAxe on 9/7/15


\\In which part of THE BIBLE did St. Ignatius of Antioch find these words?
\\

In the same place that your church finds "accept Christ" and "personal Savior", to say nothing about invitation hymns, revivals, and altar calls.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/7/15


"The Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ." He also said elsewhere, "Having nothing to do with the heretics that deny this."

In which part of THE BIBLE did St. Ignatius of Antioch find these words?

If they are not there could this be 'adding to God's Word" - something we are warned NOT to do?
---Rita_H on 9/7/15


Cluny, then you are obliged to have nothing to do with me.
---learner2 on 9/6/15


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Good point and thank you Strong Ax.

Excuse me but I must vent. I just watched a show about the Copelands, Tilton, Creflo Dollar and others televangelist who teach the prosperity gospel. I watched them brag about their jets and their tax free million dollar mansions.

It makes want to scream.

Jude 1:11-13
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds,...to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Anathema Maranatha
---Samuelbb7 on 9/6/15


learner2, St. Ignatius of Antioch said without equivocation, "The Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ." He also said elsewhere, "Having nothing to do with the heretics that deny this."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/15


\\You've exhibited as ortho-man does here, that you gather/believe/perform and worship the confused doctrinal name of your Church.\\

Trav, of course, NEVER presents confused doctrines, does he.
---Cluny on 9/5/15


Trav:

I said: There was a single Church, from Apostolic times, which established the canon, and from which both the RCC and EO derive.

You said: You've exhibited as ortho-man does here, that you gather/believe/perform and worship the confused doctrinal name of your Church.
Placing your faith in the "church" name, its traditions, liturgies (chants), ceremony, incense, its thousand dollar robes, its gift shop, etc, etc. ...


Not my church. I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox. Your accusation is unfounded. I was stating historical fact, not my opinion. I was not claiming correctness of Catholic or Orthodox doctrine, just their historical connection to the early Church.
---StrongAxe on 9/5/15


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"But you are not inclined to understand it thus, but perchance more generally. Hear it also in the following way. The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit, for the flesh was created by Him. The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life, and the union of both is the Lord, the food of the babes the Lord who is Spirit and Word. The food - that is, the Lord Jesus that is, the Word of God, the Spirit made flesh, the heavenly flesh sanctified"

St. Clement of Alexandria
---learner2 on 9/4/15


\\Trav, if you deny that the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Christ, you are holding onto a man made doctrine.

And so it goes.
---Cluny on 9/3/15

I deny nothing witnessed in multiple. You present none.\\

It' in the Bible several times, trav: in the Synoptics and in 1 Cor.

How many times does the Bible have to say something for it to be true?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/4/15


Trav, if you deny that the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Christ, you are holding onto a man made doctrine.

And so it goes.
---Cluny on 9/3/15

I deny nothing witnessed in multiple. You present none. So it goes that you've put your faith in a Church label/name. That name is your messiah. This is what you witness consistently. So be it.
I do not post for you or too you now but, through you. You help scripture live. Scripture you don't, cannot post you make possible to post. For example.
Gen_17:7 I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Heb 8:8-10/Jer 31:31-33
---Trav on 9/4/15


Trav:
To be dogmatic about being local is JUST as presumptuous (and man-made interpretation) as those you rail about for claiming it's global.
---StrongAxe on 9/3/15

True that it would be if the witnesses were not overwhelming against global.
You are the emotional, underdog guy in a jury of twelve that argues against the witnesses. I recognize you. I was like you.
Only GOD can open the door. But, you never asked the only one that can open the door letting "you" out.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
---Trav on 9/4/15


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Trav: What doctrines (beliefs) do you hold to? Please explain why you posted Ps. 98:3. What does it say to you in regards to your thinking God made two distinctly different groups of people (pre-Adamic & the Adams?
---Leon on 9/3/15

Doctrines? I believe everything the Prophets and Christ wrote. They testify/witness GOD's thoughts, Christ coming. GOD chose them. The Apostles use them. Christ uses them verifying with them...why doesn't everyone else?
Because they do not say what men want to say.
Truth is never popular. Otherwise Christ would not have been killed.
Psalms 98:3, says what it says. Specific, it needs no interpretation.
Search for truth not cracks. Truth frees.
Amo_3:7 Surely...
---Trav on 9/4/15


Trav, you hold to no man made doctrines? That's astonishing!

Read 1 Cor 2:9-11
---Monk_Brendan on 9/3/15

It is astonishing? You made my point without realizing it.
I'm confidently free from your "astonishments".
I was rebuked, with scripture witnessing scripture. By a man who let GOD direct him instead of monks, preachers, teachers, bishops, popes, etc, etc,. My arguments like yours, were not with him...but, with GOD's representatives that he pointed to. Unfortunately you are not representative of them. So far you shown them not.
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope,....
(I do plow in hope...)
---Trav on 9/4/15


\\ I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men\\

Trav, if you deny that the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Christ, you are holding onto a man made doctrine.

If you don't believe in infant baptism of believers, you're holding onto a man-made doctrine.

And so it goes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/15

Paul instructs re communion..do this in REMBRANCE OF ME, to remember my death until I come.

Re no such thing as an INFANT believer. the Parents may be the believers, however one cannot believe for another. Even being circumcised on the 8th day didn't assure heaven.
---kathr4453 on 9/4/15


Steven G, as I asked in the "Mary no death" blog--now closed, you said, "I was alter boy and a few other things until I was excomunicated from the catholic church - at eight years old"

How can an eight year old boy get excommunicated from the RC church?

Only a bishop can excommunicate anyone. A priest may withhold the Eucharist for a time--to give the sinner a time to reflect and repent--but even that is rare.

So, without going into details (we don't need the details of sins) please tell us the basic reason why you feel you were excommunicated.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/3/15


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\\ I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men\\

Trav, if you deny that the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Christ, you are holding onto a man made doctrine.

If you don't believe in infant baptism of believers, you're holding onto a man-made doctrine.

And so it goes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/15


Trav:

You said: Well you prefer your interpretation for doctrinal reasons. I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men.

You keep arguing for a non-global flood. The word used is "eretz" which can mean "land" (local) or "earth" (global), just as "earth" can have both meanings in English.

In the same way that you claim that the Bible doesn't explicitly say it's global, the very same argument can be used to say it doesn't explicitly say it's local either. To be dogmatic about being local is JUST as presumptuous (and man-made interpretation) as those you rail about for claiming it's global.
---StrongAxe on 9/3/15


Leon:

I said (and you annotated): just saying your evidence is totally reading between the lines what is not there. [IN YOUR OPINION] It may be true, [?] but you can't derive that from what the Bible actually says. [?]

No. There are no verses in the BIBLE that connect Cain to giantism. YOU believe the connection is inferred (which might, in fact, be possible) but it is nowhere ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY STATED.

Not "supposed". From a Hebrew bible, based on the Masoretic text. [WHAT HEBREW BIBLE?]

From a digital Hebrew Bible from Davka (a Jewish company) but the identical text is in the Westminster Leningrad Codex on Biblegateway (a Christian web site).
---StrongAxe on 9/3/15


///... Well you prefer your interpretation for doctrinal reasons. I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men. [Huh?! What does that mean?] Your's is an expected, common defense. [More at understanding rather than defending] You cannot vary from it, truth is not your search. [?] Truth is freedom but, at a price...
---Trav on 9/3/15///

Trav: What doctrines (beliefs) do you hold to? Please explain why you posted Ps. 98:3. What does it say to you in regards to your thinking God made two distinctly different groups of people (pre-Adamic & the Adams?
---Leon on 9/3/15


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Trav said, "I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men."

Trav, you hold to no man made doctrines? That's astonishing! How did you ever receive such enlightenment?

Personally, I think you are just as bound up in man made doctrines, because 1st, you are a man, and 2nd, because you have made these things up out of your mind, and you try hard to use Scripture to back it up.

But it never does. Read 1 Cor 2:9-11

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/3/15


Trav: You're saying there were people before Adam & Eve, therefore Cain married into another family? Wow!
---Leon on 9/2/15

Well you prefer your interpretation for doctrinal reasons. I do not hold any man made doctrines, freeing from all men. Your's is an expected, common defense. You cannot vary from it, truth is not your search. Truth is freedom but, at a price.
Psa_98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
And they have now or shortly will.
---Trav on 9/3/15


What was the mark of Cain, continued:

Trav: You're saying there were people before Adam & Eve, therefore Cain married into another family? Wow!

No, the Adam made in G1:26 is the same person in G2:7. It's called reiteration used for purpose of teaching by building on previously given information to foster a better understanding of new/additional information.

It's like when you completed 1st grade, before you could begin learning 2nd grade material the teacher reviewed a part of what you already knew (learned in 1st grade) & then began linking (building upon) 2nd grade concepts.
---Leon on 9/2/15


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