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What Are Dead People

If the dead are not dead, then why does the Bible call them dead?

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/20/15
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Yes, Nicole lacey, we have agreement.
---santimoy.kumar on 10/8/15


..the soul can never die. --santimoy.kumar on 10/7/15

Amen, Amen and Amen
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/8/15


No, leon, the soul can never die.
---santimoy.kumar on 10/7/15


Darlene: As I understand it, what goes to heaven when "believers" die is our spirit accompanied by (attached to) our soul. Our body goes into the grave & awaits the resurrection, when Jesus returns & it's reunited with our spirit/soul & raised incorruptible out of the grave to live forever with Him.

The thief on the cross went directly with Jesus to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) where Jesus spoke with & set the captives, all the way back to Adam's day, free. Today, no one goes to Abraham's bosom. Since Jesus paid the price for our salvation & is now in heaven, so it is that our spirit/soul is immediately absent from our physical body & present with the Lord in heaven.

God bless. :)
---Leon on 10/7/15


///Yes Leon, dead bodies or dead souls?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/7/15///

I think we all agree that our physical bodies die. There should be no disputing that since we're all going to die sooner or later.

What do you believe a soul is? Do you believe our human souls die?
---Leon on 10/7/15




Yes Leon, dead bodies or dead souls?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/7/15


///Leon: It is you who misses the point. The breath which God gives is HIS breath - not YOUR soul. It is the same breath that He gives to all creatures - not just people. Do you think that all animals have souls?---jerry6593 on 10/7/15///

Jerry: Where in the Bible does it say that God breathed into the nostril...of other creatures & they became living souls? You have this whole thing twisted way out of context.

How did man get his soul? God gave Adam's physical body breath (spirit/soul) to be like Him, not to be Him. The point is, WE ARE NOT GOD. We are "God breathed" creatures made in His likeness for His good pleasure.
---Leon on 10/7/15


///Is not death always relative to its context?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/5/15///

Please explain (expand on that thought).
---Leon on 10/7/15


A verse I find interesting, Proverbs 20:21 The spirit of man is the candle of God searching out the inner most parts of his being. God gives the spirit of life which goes back to Him when man dies In Genesis God breathed into man and he became a living soul. Now when we're saved it is the body,soul,and spirit that will go to heaven one day. So the spirit of life goes back to God,the body decays and the soul goes to a waiting place,thief on cross went to Paradise,wouldn't ours be the same? God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 10/7/15


Leon: It is you who misses the point. The breath which God gives is HIS breath - not YOUR soul. It is the same breath that He gives to all creatures - not just people. Do you think that all animals have souls?


---jerry6593 on 10/7/15




Samuel, did I have an earlier post?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/6/15


Sam: You keep saying "the soul is asleep" because, apparently, that's what you've been programmed to believe regardless of what the Bible actually says. I previously said spirit/breath is the same & soul/mind are the same. The prior example I gave to you was the brain is not the body, but it is an integral part of the body. So then the soul is not the spirit, but it is an integral part of the God given spirit (breath).

The only part of human beings that "sleep" in the grave is our dead physical bodies after the spirit/soul has departed. After death, they "know nothing", are dormant until the spirit/soul returns into them.
---Leon on 10/6/15


Good point Santimony Kumar.

But, for some reason, you don't quite understand the fact that GOD GAVE a measure (breath/soul) of His own life to Adam (the part of creation GOD MADE in His image).Leon

You change the words. In the earlier post you had it correctly breath/spirit. Which is what the Bible says and I agree. How is it that you can change the meaning of words to agree with your viewpoint?

The soul is asleep when we die because it is no more till the resurrection.

Why if the soul is a spirit body does the real body have to be resurrected?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/5/15


Is not death always relative to its context?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/5/15


///Leon: G2:7 ~ The physical man, Adam, wasn't alive until God breathed His breath of life (life force) into Adam giving him life. Note that when this breath of life is removed, man again becomes nothing but dust - dead dust. This is God's breath (or spirit if you will), and not man's spirit (or soul as some incorrectly assert) [???!]...---jerry6593 on 10/5/15///

Jerry: You're trying too hard to prove your point & thereby, in your zeal, miss the point every time. It's very true "everything" belongs to God, to include the very air we breathe. But, for some reason, you don't quite understand the fact that GOD GAVE a measure (breath/soul) of His own life to Adam (the part of creation GOD MADE in His image).
---Leon on 10/5/15


Leon: G2:7 ~ The physical man, Adam, wasn't alive until God breathed His breath of life (life force) into Adam giving him life. Note that when this breath of life is removed, man again becomes nothing but dust - dead dust. This is God's breath (or spirit if you will), and not man's spirit (or soul as some incorrectly assert), and is the same breath that God gives the animals (Ecc 3:19).


---jerry6593 on 10/5/15


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Sam: You focus solely on the physical aspect of our being. But, without the vastly more important spirit essence (breath/SPIRIT & mind/SOUL) we wouldn't have life. I believe our physical bodies are space suits made to give us some protection from the supernatural & natural elements in the world.

G2:7 A physically formed Adam, without life in him, before God breathed spirit/ soul into his nostrils.

G1:26-27 ~ Man made into God's "spirit" likeness.
G1:28 ~ Because of the spirit/soul God breathed into Adam, he was able to process information, to think.
Jn. 4:24 ~ God is a Spirit!
G2:7 ~ The physical man, Adam, wasn't alive until God breathed His spirit/soul (mind) man into Adam giving him life.
---Leon on 10/4/15


micha9344

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

My guess is this is the verse you are referring to. If not please let me know.

Our first death is not permanent our body is dead. Our Spirit returns to GOD. We are asleep. I Corinthians 15 till resurrection. The Second death destroys our causes to cease to exist body and soul.

Please explain your understanding.

Leon. Please give me the Bible verses that agree with your statements.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/4/15


Sam: God 1st made man's empty physical body. He breathed (breath = spirit) into man's nostrils. A living Spirit, God possesses infinite knowledge. His living breath is also cognitively active. Upon entering Adam's physical body, God's breath enabled Adam to acquire & process finite information by way of having been given a soul (mind, cognition/CPU). 1.) Since God is Spirit, we are spirits/bodies made in God's image. Our soul is an integral "reasoning" part of our spirits. 2.) The brain is a body part, but it isn't the body. Yet, both are in one physical entity. So, 3.) spirit (breath) & soul (mind) are one spirit entity. The brain & body dies, but the "living" spirit & soul relocates to either heaven or hell.
---Leon on 10/3/15


/...the Bible says Spirit plus body is the soul. Genesis 2:7. Which is why souls die...\-Samuelbb7 on 10/2/15
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
- It is interesting Samuel says if you kill the body, the soul no longer exists, but Jesus says that the soul can exist without the body.
I wonder who is correct?
-Honestly, if your interpretation of Gen 2:7 is correct, then, if someone destroyed the body, the soul would also cease to be, since one of the parts is missing.
But, Jesus, on the other hand, refutes this interpretation, by saying a body can be destroyed and the soul left intact.
---micha9344 on 10/3/15


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But leon the Bible says Spirit plus body is the soul. Genesis 2:7. Which is why souls die and the spirit returns to GOD who gave it the breath of life to us. The Spirit brings life and cognition by the combining of the two elements.

Which when we die the Spirit returns to GOD and we are called asleep by the Bible. I Corinthians 15. Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Revelation 16:3
.... and every living soul died in the sea.

We are a soul. We don't have a soul. Show me in the Bible where we have a soul?

Over and over the Bible calls death sleep. Search "slept with his fathers" in a Bible search engine.

Resurrection is the message of the New Testament. The word is used in 40 verses in the New Testatment.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/2/15


From my reading, I understand that the soul is man's mind, will and emotions and the spirit is the very breath we breath (the breath of life) it goes back to God when we die. Ecclesiastes 12:7
---dee6544 on 10/3/15


///Leon Spirit and soul are two different things and two different words from Scripture.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul...Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/1/15///

Sam: I've not said the spirit & soul are the same. The only parallel I've drawn between the two is that our individual spirits (breath) is coupled (joined) with a conscious soul (mind: mental cognition). I believe the spirit occupies (fills) the entire physical body, but the soul (mind) is housed specifically in the brain (the body's command & control center). When they depart our body, only our flesh is dead ~ WE AREN'T!
---Leon on 10/2/15


///Leon, Amen!!!...The other day I opened my bible and read this:

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The Apostle Paul states that to depart from the flesh and be with Christ is far better than to remain in the body. If I'm asleep how could it be far better? I know you understand this. Too bad others do not.
---trey on 10/1/15///

Thx Trey: Just one person like you makes my struggles here worthwhile. Let's pray others will ultimately choose to become more attuned to what the Bible really says versus their nonsensical yet highly touted religious doctrines.
---Leon on 10/2/15


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If you are "dead", you can still be in existence or conscious. For example >

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (2 Timothy 5:6)

She is conscious, seeking pleasure, but as far as the life of God's love is concerned, she is dead.

Also, people can be "dead" by no longer being alive on this planet. But this does not mean they are not alive in some other way.

Also, the Bible says we once "were dead in trespasses and sins", in Ephesians 2:1. But even though we were "dead", as far as the life of God's love is concerned, we were conscious in the nasty awfulness of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)
---Bill on 10/1/15


Leon, Amen!!! I like what you had to say. The other day I opened my bible and read this:

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The Apostle Paul states that to depart from the flesh and be with Christ is far better than to remain in the body. If I'm asleep how could it be far better? I know you understand this. Too bad others do not.
---trey on 10/1/15


2Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Tabernacle = temporary dwelling place, our bodies.

Did everyone but me see that Paul says mortality is swallowed up of life??? I just saw this the other day. Why didn't Paul say mortality is swallowed up of death??? Could it be that we are more alive after we die than we are now while we live in these mortal bodies?
---trey on 10/1/15


Leon Spirit and soul are two different things and two different words from Scripture.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

The word breath is n & #277,shamah and is also translated Spirit 2. Also soul once.

The word Soul is nephesh and it has many different meanings. But again they are not the same thing.

look it up.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/1/15


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Leon:

You said: To the contrary, one's spirit/soul doesn't sleep, but is constantly conscious either in heaven or hell.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (different Lazarus), this would appear to be the case.
---StrongAxe on 10/2/15


Jesus told the repentant thief crucified on the cross next to Him, "Today you shall be with me in paradise". Not in a few thousand years, but today.
---Jed on 10/2/15


///Lazarus was brought back to live in his body. His Spirit was called to come down. He was asleep in the Lord. [?]

...Monk Brendan[: Y]ou agree...the dead are asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection?...We have a spirit that makes us alive. Not a dead Spirit. We are dead in sins to the love of Christ and God until we are born again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/30/15///

Sam: I'm not sure what Monk means ( & you agree with) by "sleep in the Lord". Lazarus's physical body being dead (asleep) in the grave doesn't mean his spirit/soul was also in the grave or asleep any where else. To the contrary, one's spirit/soul doesn't sleep, but is constantly conscious either in heaven or hell.
---Leon on 10/1/15


"John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.---micha9344 on 10/1/15" Thank you Micha, Lazarus was dead. Not living on some another plain.
"\\Lazarus was not alive, but dead until resurrected. \\ Exactly.
"Then [what or who] was there to respond to the Savior's command, Lazarus, come forth?" Cluny It was a living Lazarus who responded, after his life was restored of the Father.
I believe that Jesus issued a silent prayer to the Father for Lazarus to be raised, and that he was, before he was called out, based on this statement.
"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me."
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,...
---josef on 10/1/15


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/If the dead are not dead, then why does the Bible call them dead?\-jerry6593 on 9/20/15
/He was asleep in the Lord.\-Samuelbb7 on 9/30/15
John 11:11-14 ...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep...Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The word is "euphemism."
Can everybody say it? Good...
Just to reiterate:
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
---micha9344 on 10/1/15


Lazarus was brought back to live in his body. His Spirit was called to come down. He was asleep in the Lord.

So Monk Brendan you agree that the dead are asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection?

Thank you Mark Eaton good point.

We have a spirit that makes us alive. Not a dead Spirit. We are dead in sins to the love of Christ and God until we are born again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/30/15


What's "born again" (regenerated) is our "spirit", not our soul. ---Leon on 9/29/15

BCV, please.

John 3:3 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"

2 Cor. 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature, the old things passed away..."

Titus 3:5 " He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

The word regeneration in Titus is the Greek word paliggenesia meaning new birth, reproduction, or birth again. It does not mean metamorphosis - the changing of one state to another.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/30/15


Jerry asked, "If the dead are not dead, then why does the Bible call them dead?"

Because the dead are dead. The spirit has departed from the body.

When Jesus returns, the spirits will all return to their bodies--He can bring those bodies back to life, after all. Then comes the Great Judgment, where all the books are opened. Those that have been saved will receive a glorified body and live with Jesus in the New Jerusalem.

Those that are damned get an immortal body in the same condition as before they died--aches, pains and all, and they will suffer for eternity in hell.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/29/15


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Leon:

You said: Regardless of our opinions Mark, our beliefs should be rooted in what the Bible says. Recently, I heard a radio minister say, "A once born person dies twice. A twice born person dies once."

While this makes a nice jingle, how can it be correct? If a person is "born once", he has a living body, but a dead spirit. The living body can die, but how can an already-dead spirit die? It's alreay dead.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/15


How do we never die if our soul is asleep in the grave?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15

An Acorn dies and seed rots away. But a new tree comes from the transition.

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground,
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself, first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
---Trav on 9/29/15


\\Lazarus was not alive, but dead until resurrected. \\

Then was was there to respond to the Savior's command, "Lazarus, come forth"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/15


///...I do not believe that our souls are dead before we are born again, just blinded. ...our souls are not "regenerated" but there is a totally new creation. [?]

I believe when we are born again...Jesus births His Spirit in us and we for the first time, have a spirit. [??]...---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/15///

Regardless of our opinions Mark, our beliefs should be rooted in what the Bible says. Recently, I heard a radio minister say, "A once born person dies twice. A twice born person dies once."

What's "born again" (regenerated) is our "spirit", not our soul. With our individual spirits reconnected to God's Spirit (Power), our minds (souls) can then be renewed.
---Leon on 9/29/15


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Resurrection for us is in the future. After that we will live forever.
---jerry6593 on 9/29/15

So the creator of all things, including language, chose an incorrect word when He chose the word "NEVER" or "in no wise"? I don't think so.

According to you, we die for a season and then we get the life Jesus has promised us. Again, I don't think so.

The words Jesus used in John 11 are the same words Jesus used in your favorite verse. Perhaps he made a mistake there also.

Matt 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/15


Believer's souls go instantly to be with the Lord. Unbeliever's souls go straight to hell upon the death of the physical body.
---Leon on 9/28/15

We do have a difference in opinion, but not in death. Our difference in opinion is in life, specifically the second birth.

I do not believe that our souls are dead before we are born again, just blinded. I used to discuss this with MarkV, that our souls are not "regenerated" but there is a totally new creation.

I believe when we are born again, that Jesus births His Spirit in us and we for the first time, have a spirit. I believe this spirit born in us is what travels to God after death. He is in us, we are in Him and the spirit born in us cannot die.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/15


Mark E: "Did you catch the last part?"

Too bad you didn't read the 2 preceding verses:

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus was not alive, but dead until resurrected. Resurrection for us is in the future. After that we will live forever.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


---jerry6593 on 9/29/15


///...How do we never die if our soul is asleep in the grave?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15

...Jesus overcame death and there can be no death for Jesus. If I am in Jesus, there can be no death for me. Jesus confirms this in John 11.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15///

Mark_E: Where you & Jerry keep getting it wrong is your failure to see & acknowledge 1.) Our souls don't sleep in the grave. Only our flesh (physical bodies) "sleep" in the grave. Believer's souls go instantly to be with the Lord. Unbeliever's souls go straight to hell upon the death of the physical body. 2.) Jesus died physically, not spiritually. His spirit, after three days, returned to his physically resurrected body.
---Leon on 9/28/15


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"I choose to believe the words of Jesus, not your definition."
I wasn't defining anything, and I did not change his words. He said "Whosoever lives and believes in me", and it was the resurrection that was being discussed, that happens at His return.
"I choose to see this in the same light as Rom 8:1. There is no condemnation for Jesus. Therefore if I am in Jesus, there can be no condemnation for me." You will get no argument from me concerning that statement, the condemnation spoken of is the second death.
"Jesus overcame death.. If I am in Jesus, there can be no death for me." It is appointed unto men once to die. The only exception, the believer that lives at He returns.
---josef on 9/28/15


Those who have died in Christ are asleep and will wake up when Jesus returns. They are not truly dead.

Read Matthew 22:31,32.

Yes I got that they are asleep just like Lazarus was awakened from sleep and called out of the Grave. Jesus did not say come down from heaven but come out of the grave to him. John 11.

Go to a bible search engine and type in resurrection of the dead. Read the passages. The type in immortal soul and read nothing.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/28/15


The only people who will never die are the people who are alive and changed when He returns.
---josef on 9/28/15

Therefore, when Jesus says "everyone" or "whosoever" lives in me, Jesus does not really mean everyone or whosoever, just whosoever you define.

I choose to believe the words of Jesus, not your definition.

I choose to see this in the same light as Rom 8:1. There is no condemnation for Jesus, He is sinless. Therefore if I am in Jesus, there can be no condemnation for me.

Jesus overcame death and there can be no death for Jesus. If I am in Jesus, there can be no death for me. Jesus confirms this in John 11.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15


"John 11:25-26 "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
This verse references the day of His return.
"How do we never die if our soul is asleep in the grave?" Exactly. The only people who will never die are the people who are alive and changed when He returns.
---josef on 9/28/15


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[So much for spook immortality]
---jerry6593 on 9/26/15

I read a verse this weekend that I found compelling, especially to this discussion.

John 11:25-26 "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

Did you catch the last part? Everyone who lives and believes in Jesus will NEVER die.

How do we never die if our soul is asleep in the grave?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15


Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH shall I see God:
---jerry6593 on 9/27/15

But...then Job being family forseen what Ezekiel stated.
Eze 37:6 I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, ye shall live, ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: as I prophesied, there was a noise, behold a shaking, the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:13
---Trav on 9/25/15
---Trav on 9/28/15


We shall reign on earth after we have been resurrected.

I Corinthians is all about us looking forward to the resurrection.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Then Jesus said he is the Resurrection. vs. 25. Why did he not tell her Lazarus was not dead?

Paul believed as a Pharisee in the Resurrection. Acts 23.

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/15


StrongAxe: "they DID live"

Yes, but note that they did not continue to live as immortal spooks. Spooks (if there were such a thing) need no resurrection. Hence, the dead are not really alive now, but await immortal life at the resurrection at Jesus second coming.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH shall I see God:

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


---jerry6593 on 9/27/15


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jerry6593:

You said: They are the ones that ride the New Jerusalem back to earth after the millennium in heaven, but:

Precisely. They were resurrected, and ended up back on earth.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Precisely. It WAS a thousand years later, but they DID live.
---StrongAxe on 9/26/15


StrongAxe: "Possibly because he explicitly said so, in Revelation?"

Oh really? Perhaps you should look up the definition of "explicitly". No mention is made of a spook ride. The PEOPLE in heaven at that point were resurrected (and made immortal) at Jesus second coming. They are the ones that ride the New Jerusalem back to earth after the millennium in heaven, but:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

[So much for spook immortality]


---jerry6593 on 9/26/15


If the dead are not dead, then why does the Bible call them dead?
---jerry6593 on 9/20/15

May depend on who the dead are. Ezekiel answers this question to a final end or actually a beginning... "for ever" (stated twice below).
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt, and they shall dwell therein, even they, their children, their children's children for ever: my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
---Trav on 9/25/15


jerry6593:

You said: why would He need to return with spooks to incarnate them here? Can't He create in heaven?

Possibly because he explicitly said so, in Revelation?

Rev. 3:12 talks about the New Jersualem descending out of heaven [to the New Earth, see Rev. 21]

Rev. 5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
---StrongAxe on 9/25/15


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Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul(nephesh).
-Jerry interprets this as "body + breath = soul."
-So, if the body is destroyed, so is the soul.
-This is confirmed in Jos 10.
Jos 10:39 ...they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls(nephesh) that [were] therein...
-This seems to contradict Jesus
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
-Unless.. Jesus is talking about a different soul.
The soul SDA's confuse with nephesh.
---micha9344 on 9/25/15


StrongAxe: I completely agree that God does not use old rotten bodies to remake people. That being the case, why would He need to return with spooks to incarnate them here? Can't He create in heaven? The point is that people do not exist as spooks (Gen 2:7) - the exist only as bodies plus breath of life. He creates new creatures from His memory of each of us (whose names are written in the Book of Life) with the added touch of immortality. That's why He says:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.


---jerry6593 on 9/25/15


jerry6593:

You said If people continue to live as immortal spooks in heaven, and are thus enjoying the bliss therein, why would they want to leave that state, return to earth, and be injected into a rotting corpse through resurrection?

The raising of the dead (as happened when a body was buried on Elisha's bones, or when Jesus raised Lazarus) merely restores the spirit to its old, corruptible body.

Resurrection is totally different. The spirit is returned to a new, whole, perfect, incorruptible and immortal body. The resurrected Jesus still bore his wounds (like the spear hole in his chest), but that didn't re-kill him.
---StrongAxe on 9/24/15


---Samuelbb7, the point I am making is that Christ speaks of those who have died as being alive. Christ is stating that they are alive.

The scriptures, unlike EGW, teach that when a child of God dies their spirit and soul departs from the body and goes immediately to be with the Father in heaven.
Gen 35:8, Phil 1:23, Eccl 3:21

When the Lord returns we will return with him and be reunited with our bodies, but our bodies will have been glorified. 1 Thes 4:14, 1 Cor 15:42-44, etc.
---trey on 9/24/15


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:)

---Leon on 9/24/15


Leon: "Jerry: I did answer your question(s)"

No Leon, you still haven't answered my question:

If people continue to live as immortal spooks in heaven, and are thus enjoying the bliss therein, why would they want to leave that state, return to earth, and be injected into a rotting corpse through resurrection?


Try again.


---jerry6593 on 9/24/15


No trey it does not say that you have to add words to the passage to get that meaning out of it. You need to read the passage for context.

Mark 12:18

Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection, and they asked him, saying,

There is no mention of the dead not being dead. They are opposed to the dead coming back to live at a resurrection.

Paul believed in and taught the resurrection of the dead. I Corinthians 15. In that chapter he says the dead are asleep.

When read in context the verse proves our understanding and shows the misunderstanding you state is incorrect.

Read the chapter.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/23/15


Jerry: I did answer your question(s) according to what the Bible teaches. You just didn't get from me the answer(s) you wanted to fit into your mental, subjective constructs. So, what can I say? :)
---Leon on 9/23/15


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Leon: You still haven't answered my question:

If people continue to live as immortal spooks in heaven, and are thus enjoying the bliss therein, why would they want to leave that state, return to earth, and be injected into a rotting corpse through resurrection?

Ad why didn't Lazarus give a report on the wonders of heaven and his disappointment with Christ yanking him back to earth?

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

---jerry6593 on 9/23/15


Leon - Walk like Zombies , Yes in some way

Yes they are alive - But not elect - Chosen ,regenerated , New Creature They are on the earth for a short time, then die ,that it ! over, Tray Got it ! Hell - Pit - Grave - unsaved walking dead

The save get new spiritual bodies last day


John 11:26
---Richardc on 9/22/15


Christ said this:
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? (KJV)
Mr 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (KJV)

Christ plainly states here that Abraham, Issac and Jacob are living. Their bodies lie dead in the grave but they are alive.

Matthew 17 Christ is transfigured before Peter, James and John. They watch as he speaks with Moses and Elias. This wasn't some cheap parlor trick. These saints of old were very much alive!!!
---trey on 9/21/15


Jerry: ASSUME nothing friend. The Bible says "absent from the body [FLESH], present with the Lord" for "born again believers". The Bible says the spirit/soul of unbelievers go directly to hell. Whether with the Lord or in hell, one's spirits/soul is "ALIVE".

Our flesh is dead [KNOWS NOTHING] in the grave. It's dormant like an article of clothing hanging lifeless in the closet. But, when one puts it on it is filled with life.

Believer's spirit/souls enter into newly created, incorruptible bodies that are resurrected out of the grave. But, unbelieving spirit/souls are returned to their same old corrupted bodies wherein they stand before the White Throne Judgment of God, just like the Bible says.
---Leon on 9/21/15


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///Matthew 8:22 - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me and let the dead bury the dead,

[ Thought this verse would go good with topic at hand }
---Richardc on 9/20/15///

Richardc: Jesus was talking about people who weren't "spiritually born again". Yes, they were physically alive (like zombies) in the flesh. But, the inference was that they were nonetheless spiritually dead (disconnected from God).
---Leon on 9/21/15


Leon: "Yet, BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS are ultimately resurrected in new, incorruptible physical bodies... "

Let's assume for the moment that dead people continue to live as immortal spooks in heaven, and are thus enjoying the bliss therein. Why would they want to leave that state, return to earth, and be injected into a rotting corpse through resurrection?

The biblical version seems more plausible to me. The dead remain asleep (really dead) in the grave until Jesus' return when they are resurrected (at the last day) in new, immortal bodies, and are then transported to heaven.


---jerry6593 on 9/21/15


Spiritually dead, physically dead, in both cases dead means dead, an absence of life.
---josef on 9/20/15


Matthew 8:22 - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me and let the dead bury the dead,

[ Thought this verse would go good with topic at hand }
---Richardc on 9/20/15


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Jerry: The Bible shows there are two conditions of death:

1.) The first is "spiritual death" that occurred immediately in G3 when Adam & Eve sinned. Their disobedience to God's word caused a degenerative death (disconnection/power vacuum/separation) from God. That's why (also in G3) God set in motion a plan whereby He would restore (regenerate, power reconnect) us to life in Him thru the process He calls being "BORN AGAIN" (spirit quickened).

2.) The second condition is "physical death", also gradually caused by the fall of the Adams. Consequentially, we all die physically. Yet, BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS are ultimately resurrected in new, incorruptible physical bodies...
---Leon on 9/20/15


"If the dead are not dead, then why does the Bible call them dead?"
Although this comes across as a facetious question, I have heard it said, and I look forward to the responses.
---josef on 9/20/15


For the same reason the Bible calls the physically living dead also.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
---micha9344 on 9/20/15


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