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False Gospels Quiz

In the False Gospels quiz, why is #11 false? All Catholics and Orthodox will say that this is true?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 9/22/15
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Micha, it is interesting though, concerning the promise of the Land that the birthright of the land went to Jacob, where as many take this to mean a birthright to salvation. Esau sold his birthright to the land, he didn't sell his birthright to salvation, as no man can do that in the first place.

But the scriptures, " those who are of FAITH are Abraham's seed and heirs according to Promise", was not referring to Land, but to Salvation. This PROMISE, was the promise of the Spirit, as we see explained in Galatians, where Gentiles are included in that promise. So we see two promises here. THAT promise has nothing to do with LAND. In bringing up Isaac Micha, I was referring to the promise of the Spirit, not the Land.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/15


Galatians 4:27-29

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not, break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This is the verse and Promise I was referring to Micha. Remember Abraham was given TWO promises. The one concerning Isaac was not about LAND. My apologies if I didn't state it clearly enough.
---kathr453 on 10/17/15


Actually Micha, I am glad you pressed the issue. When we read Galatians, what we DON'T SEE is " as Jacob so are we". And this is where Calvinists can't make the distinction between these two promises. Jacob and Esau were not by Promise, and Jacob inheriting the birthright of the LAND did not automatically include the Promise of the Spirit of exclusive salvation. Paul never even once mentions Jacob in Galatians as proof of election to salvation. And the promise of the Spirit was never mentioned as coming with the land. If that were the case, only those who inherited the physical land would have the Holy Spirit. No one is given a "birthright" to the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4454 on 10/17/15


Micha, you took a conversation and took something I said out of context. If you had been involved in the conversation from the beginning, you might have understood exactly what the conversation was about.

The promise was to Abraham's seed. His PHYSICAL seed. Today we call the Land "Israel". Originally it was divided among Jacob's descendants.

Jacob inherited the birthright, not Esau, even though Esau was also Isaac's seed and Abraham's seed.
And at the appointed time, some 400 plus years later the promise came to fruition.

---kathr4453 on 10/16/15


Kathr, I not sure from where your getting this "stalking."
Of my last 14 posts, only 2 have been directed at comments you have made (now 3).
There has been no personal attack, just presentation that your statement "Isaac was not promised land" was false with scripture showing so.
Yet now I receive this personal attack on my character without any justification, nor anything showing otherwise.
Wouldn't be better to just say "I'm wrong", rather than go to the ad-hominem attacks?
You did post on a public forum. Even though it was directed at one person, the forum is open to comment.
Are you a moderator?
---micha9344 on 10/16/15




Micha, again it appears you are stalking me, jumping into conversations you were not initially involved in, not reading WHAT the conversation was/ is about. The subject of the conversation was NOT about land. And it's NOT about the CHURCH inheriting land through Abraham. The CHURCH, did not inherit any land through Abraham or the Promises given to Abraham. The land was given to Abraham's PHYSICAL SEED. The Church is Abraham's SPIRITUAL SEED. Until you know the difference, this conversation with you is only for your enjoyment to start another argument you want to create. NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR MOTIVES HERE MICHA.

If it did....then go claim yours.
---kathr4453 on 10/16/15


/Isaac inherited the PROMISE...\kathr4453 on 10/14/15
-What promise?
/9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise...\-kathr4453 on 10/13/15
-Land of promise?
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Isaac was promised land just as Abram and Jacob. It was God's covenant. The fulfillment was future. The promise was present.
So sure that God was in this promise and covenant that He told Abram "I have given."
---micha9344 on 10/15/15


Micha, where did Isaac take possession of the Land? When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, does Abraham hesitate because that would squelch the land deal? Isaac inherited the PROMISE just as well as Jacob, but it wasn't until hundreds of years later that they actually took possession of the Land.

Isaac represents the CHURCH, Abraham's spiritual seed. Jacob represents Israel the nation. The Land was given to the Nation of Israel, the 12 Tribes. But even then they had to go in and take possession of it. Just as salvation is promised to ALL, not ALL will take possession of it either. Hebrews 3 and 4 will explain.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/15


But Isaac was promised land.
---micha9344 on 10/13/15


Micha, I have no intention of eating my words. God promised the land to Abraham's seed, yes. And 430 years after that promise they took possession. And it was inherited via Abraham, through Isaac to Jacob. Not through Ishmael. But Abraham was looking for the Heavenly Jerusalem. Vs 22.




Hebrews 11:8-10

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/15




Hebrews 11:16-19 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. . What CITY? 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from whence also he received him in a figure.

These verses may go over your head Micha.

In Isaac shall thy seed be called, and th seed is CHRIST. Christ is OUR LAND Micha.
---kathr453 on 10/13/15


/Isaac was never promised LAND.\-kathr4453 on 10/11/15
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:19 ...and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant...
-I have learned to research before I post, lest I may have to eat my words.
---micha9344 on 10/13/15


Isaac was never promised LAND.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/15

His father was. Israel is the "ecclesia". His heritage sons, inherited all his blessings. And curses attached. Entire book is to Israel. There are still those who still attempt to null/invalidate their relationship. Uhhhh...hmmmm.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb_11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,
---Trav on 10/12/15


Eph 2:12,13 ...ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, ...br>...who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/11/15

The only "commonwealth" of Israel was the Nth House joined with the Sth House. As per "New Covenant". Prophets prophecied it, Christ put it into force.
Israel is a "servant people", sheep. Servant being a mark and sign of who they are today and who they were in the past.
They were "far off", scattered, dispersed, Lost, and no one looked for them. Nor do they today as witnessed.
Eze_34:6 My sheep ...my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, none did search or seek after them.
---Trav on 10/12/15


This is what's known as "wrong dividing"
//Made nigh or part of the Commonwealth of Israel and part of the Covenant.//
---michael_e on 10/12/15


You edited it Michael

Ephesians 2:12,13
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Made nigh or part of the Commonwealth of Israel and part of the Covenant.


True Kathyr.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/11/15


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Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Did God make a Covenant with Abraham? Yes He did. " 2 " in fact. "1" the CHURCH, ( ISAAC) both Jew and Gentile as Paul shows in Galatians, are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

"2" The Covenants to Israel( JACOB) as a NATION do not belong to the Church. Isaac was never promised LAND.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/15


//Paul talking to the Corinthans...Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/15//
Agreed, what is your point?
---michael_e on 10/11/15


"Host" in this sense is from the Latin word HOSTIA or victim offered in sacrifice. (Compare with "hostage".)
Host (offering hospitality) and guest (receiving hospitality) are actually cognates from the same Germanic root. ---Cluny on 10/9/15

That is a same thing as I said without the depths of words:

Paul puts it in another way:

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."
(Galatians 2:19-20).

The wafer is still a Host as we should be for Jesus.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/11/15


Nichole said, "1. It is not a cracker because cracker has white flour in it.

It is called a wafer."


Nichole, the wafer does indeed have white flour (or sometimes whole wheat flour) in it. Usually, the host contains flour and water, and that's all.

The bread that is consecrated in all of the Byzantine liturgies is flour (usually white, but may contain whole wheat) yeast, water and (optional) salt. Nothing else.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/11/15


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Michael_e, read 1Cor 11 BEFORE chapter 12.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, (( THE MYSTERY GOD REVEALED TO PAUL))) that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament/ COVENANT in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Paul talking to the Corinthans...Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/15


Eph. 2:12,13 Is very plain "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.(Not by covenants)
---michael_e on 10/11/15


Hebrews 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever amen.

Sorry Michael _e, but the Covenant between Father Son and Holy Spirit, aka the EVERLASTING COVENANT, is what ALL salvation is based upon. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT, no one would be saved. Not even those in the Church.
---kathr4453 on 10/10/15


According to Paul, the cup is the blood that bought the salvation and forgiveness for all men not under any covenants michael_e//////

Michael_e claims the Church is not under any covenant. WRONG. Abraham was under the EVERLASTING COVENANT. That covenant was announced in Genesis 3:15 and more fully revealed to Abraham. There are the stars, meaning the heavenly which refer to the Church, and the sand of the sea, referring to earthly Israel. Like Isaac so are WE, so teaches PAUL.

Michael_e, I suggest you read Romans 4 again and Galatians AGAIN. What was hidden is now revealed, and Paul explains those precious hidden nuggets to us. It was there all along, just not revealed until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.
---kathr453 on 10/10/15


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Lords supper, communion, and Lords table are in Pauls epistles.
Paul says the bread is not the physical body of Jesus, it is the church, the body of Christ. 1 Cor 10:16-17
According to Paul, the cup is the blood that bought the salvation and forgiveness for all men not under any covenants (Acts 20:28 , 1 Cor 12:13 ).
communion is our common union with the Lord Jesus Christ according to the fellowship of the mystery of Christ. Our communion is not with a piece of toast and a shot glass, which has no saving power..
Communion is with people of like minds. It takes effort to be of the same mind, but it is a pleasure to remember our Head, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the reason why we come together.
---michael_e on 10/10/15


\\You are correct, but we add water (mankind) to the wine instead for the same meaning you wrote.\\

The mixed chalice, as it is called, is part of all the classic pre-reformation Liturgies. It's not peculiar to the Latin rite.

\\Plus, cracker is a derogatory name some Protestants love to call the wafer esp. after the wafer becomes the Host (Hosting Jesus' Body).\\

This is not why it's called a host.

"Host" in this sense is from the Latin word HOSTIA or victim offered in sacrifice. (Compare with "hostage".)

Host (offering hospitality) and guest (receiving hospitality) are actually cognates from the same Germanic root.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/9/15


Monk, in the RCC which Michael was speaking about not those other Orthodox Church no flour is used.

You are correct, but we add water (mankind) to the wine instead for the same meaning you wrote.

Plus, cracker is a derogatory name some Protestants love to call the wafer esp. after the wafer becomes the Host (Hosting Jesus' Body).

I know Michael DIDN'T mean any disrespect.
I was just pointing out WHY it wasn't cracker in the RCC.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/9/15


Nicole said, "1. It is not a cracker because cracker has white flour in it.
...But you are correct in stating the substance turns into the Body of Jesus which is a SACRAMENT."


The Melkite Catholic Church, as well as the Byzantine Catholics, the Russian Catholics, the Ukrainian Catholics and others use leavened bread.

I know this because I helped edit a book called The Byzantine-American Liturgicon (out of print) which among others things tells you how to bake the bread for the liturgy. I also know this because every Sunday when I receive the Eucharist, it is a piece of yeasted bread (the Body) which has been dipped in the Precious Blood.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/9/15


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//Jesus had already started preparing them to accept Gentile converts as shown by his treatment of Gentiles.//
(Ref Matt 15:26)
Paul writes, Jesus was a minister of the circumcision just like Peter, James, and John (Gal 2:7-9 ). The uncircumcised were cutoff from God (Gen 17:14 ). Gentiles could only get a hearing with Jesus if they exhibited blessing of the nation Israel and him as the Messiah. Jesus healed a few Gentiles and used them as examples to a faithless Israel (Luke 7:9 ).
//the church in Acts 11.//
Acts 11:19 "JEWS ONLY"
---michael_e on 10/9/15


The church, which is his body, had not yet been revealed, and everyone at that table was a Jew anticipating Pentecost and the kingdom come. -michael_e

Jesus had already started preparing them to accept Gentile converts as shown by his treatment of Gentiles. They just needed the Holy Spirit to slap them upside the head. Which happened to Peter in Acts 10, and to the church in Acts 11.

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/8/15


//Just how are there degrees (more, most) of Roman Catholic practice?//
This answers that question
1. It is not a cracker because cracker has white flour in it.

It is called a wafer
---michael_e on 10/8/15


The most Roman Catholic practice in all non-Catholic Christianity is Protestant Mass known by tradition as the Lords Supper.
While denouncing wrong Catholic teaching that the cracker turns into the real flesh of Jesus,---michael_e on 10/2/15

1. It is not a cracker because cracker has white flour in it.

It is called a wafer.
But you are correct in stating the substance turns into the Body of Jesus which is a SACRAMENT.

2. Since you got the 1st wrong, Please do not speak on Catholic's beliefs.

It's like trying to translate French into English, but you can't speak, read or write in French.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/8/15


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\\my young friend, but the most Roman Catholic practice in all non-Catholic Christianity is Protestant Mass known by tradition as the Lords Supper\\

Just how are there degrees (more, most) of Roman Catholic practice?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/15


//Roman Catholics and Protestants do all these things, too, you know.//
Of course I know these things my young friend, but the most Roman Catholic practice in all non-Catholic Christianity is Protestant Mass known by tradition as the Lords Supper
---michael_e on 10/7/15


\\The most Roman Catholic practice in all non-Catholic Christianity is Protestant Mass known by tradition as the Lords Supper.
\\

Not praying?

Not baptizing?

Not reading from the Bible in services?

Roman Catholics and Protestants do all these things, too, you know.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/15


Cluny said, "Jesus Himself commanded them. Go argue with Him, not me."

why argue when Jesus explains his words, "
It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

John 6:63

Also, in The Scriptures the litteral eating of ones flesh or drinking of ones blood is a curse "Divine Judgment." "Abomination." never a blessing my friend...
---john9346 on 10/7/15


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The most Roman Catholic practice in all non-Catholic Christianity is Protestant Mass known by tradition as the Lords Supper.
While denouncing wrong Catholic teaching that the cracker turns into the real flesh of Jesus, Protestants continue the Catholic sacrament only with a little more irreverence and less mysticism.
most Catholics and Protestants think Jesus instituted a sacrament for the church when he passed the cup and broke the bread with his disciples at the Passover (Mat 26:26).
The church, which is his body, had not yet been revealed, and everyone at that table was a Jew anticipating Pentecost and the kingdom come.
We would not be welcome at that table even if we brought flowers and cake!
---michael_e on 10/2/15


\\According to your tradition, is that not when the presence takes place?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/30/15\\

When else would it be? While the bread is still being baked? While the grapes are being pressed (fermentation starts immediately, btw)?

I once saw a poster in a general Protestant book store: "The destiny of all bread is to become the Body of Christ." This can be understood on several levels.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/2/15


There is an organization whose site called The Real Presence deals with quotes concerning early Christian writers and the Eucharist.
---Cluny on 9/30/15

I found that site and read their quotes.

Please show me one quote on that web site prior to Athanasius that discusses the bread and the wine being transformed on the altar during prayer.

According to your tradition, is that not when the presence takes place?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/30/15


There is an organization whose site called The Real Presence deals with quotes concerning early Christian writers and the Eucharist.

There are DOZENS before Athanasius.

I don't know where you got the false notion that Athanasius was the first to teach it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/15


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My quote from Athanasius is the first.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/15

You're probably right but, you will never get an orthodox confirmation. Ha.
Didn't take long for the early denom's to start throwing their personal "Leaven" in the bread.
1Co_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, without a prince, without a sacrifice, without an image, without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, seek the LORD their God, and David their king, shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
---Trav on 9/30/15


\\He also fought against people who did not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior. I do not argue with that.

But nowhere in any of his writings have I have found where he says that the bread and the wine transform on the altar under prayer. \\

And just under what circumstances would the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ? Randomly?

Actually, the sermons where the newly baptized were taught about the Eucharist were given by St. Cyril of Jerusalem, not St. Athanasius.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/15


But where did the Apostles write down that the Bread and wine were the actually body. I have not read where they said that.

I have read where they wrote the words Jesus said. ---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/15

Really?
The Apostles have to repeat Jesus' Words for you to believe what Jesus said?

Read John 6.

Jesus is saying over and over and over the Bread is His Body and the Wine is His Blood.

Jesus' Words should be enough for you.

The Apostle don't repeat Jesus' Words but DO WHAT HE COMMANDED THEM.
As should you.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/29/15


Actually the first was St. Ignatius in the 100's.
---Cluny on 9/29/15

I gave you my quote, where is your quote?

Ignatius of Antioch said that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus in many of his letters. He also fought against people who did not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior. I do not argue with that.

But nowhere in any of his writings have I have found where he says that the bread and the wine transform on the altar under prayer.

My quote from Athanasius is the first.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/15


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\\As well as I can tell, it was Athanasius in 377 AD who described it first in his Sermon to the Newly Baptized:\\

Actually the first was St. Ignatius in the 100's.

He was the young child Jesus took into HIs lap when He said, "Suffer the little children..."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/15


As I have said before, I believe it was the Patristic Fathers who developed this "presence" idea. As well as I can tell, it was Athanasius in 377 AD who described it first in his Sermon to the Newly Baptized:
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15

Interesting stuff, Mark. Thankfully my/our "Father" outranks all imposter fathers/papa's.

Exo 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Exo_34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
---Trav on 9/29/15


It is "mystical" to them not knowing or teaching the origin of the idea...
---Trav on 9/28/15

As I have said before, I believe it was the Patristic Fathers who developed this "presence" idea. Ass well as I can tell, it was Athanasius in 377 AD who described it first in his Sermon to the Newly Baptized:

"So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ."
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15


It is the same Mystical Sacrifice...It is that sacrifice that we partake of when we receive the Eucharist.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/25/15

Mystical...hmm

---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15

It is "mystical" to them not knowing or teaching the origin of the idea or teaching of the people they copy it from.
Nor is their leadership willing to teach it...if they even could.
If they could they would have already rather than leave even the Monks in confusion.
---Trav on 9/28/15


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It is the same Mystical Sacrifice...It is that sacrifice that we partake of when we receive the Eucharist.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/25/15

Mystical...hmm

Partaking in that sacrifice over and over seems to contradict the teaching of Hebrew 10, in that the one sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient for all time, for all sins, and for all people.

Heb. 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

Sanctified, past tense. Done then, not today. Done 2000 years ago. We were all sanctified for all time during the death of Jesus. We cannot partake, influence, or change the sacrifice of Jesus. This was the will of God alone.

We can only believe and obey.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/15


\\But where did the Apostles write down that the Bread and wine were the actually body. I have not read where they said that.\\

This has been pointed out several times.

Try 1 Corinthians.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/15


\\None of the disciples taught baptism and the eucharist as essential for salvation.\\

Jesus Himself commanded them. Go argue with Him, not me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/15


Nor does He. It is the same Mystical Sacrifice, where He gave Himself on the Cross. It is that sacrifice that we partake of when we receive the Eucharist.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/25/15

So where is the part Jesus said you must do this over and over and over? AND are you injesting His earthly life or His Glorified risen life? If His earthly life, where our sin was placed on His flesh, are you injesting the sin of the whole world? OR are you saying you too are also sacrificing yourselves for sin? How could thT be since you have sin. We are not to identify with His sacrifice, but to identify with His DEATH. Two entirely different matters.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/15


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Good point Nicole.

But where did the Apostles write down that the Bread and wine were the actually body. I have not read where they said that.

I have read where they wrote the words Jesus said.

But not read where they proclaim what you say.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/15


\\is Jesus making the sacrifice every time you receive the Eucharist? I believe Scripture teaches us that Jesus does not need to make the sacrifice over and over."\\

The Orthodox teach that the Bread and Wine become, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Body and Blood of Christ that were sacrificed ONCE for all time.

Don't forget this Sacrifice is eternal, and the Son eternally pleads this Sacrifice before His Father.

Receiving the Eucharist is how we participate ON EARTH in this One Sacrifice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/15


Cluny said, "No. First I would administer emergency baptism and send for a Priest to bring him Communion."

But the person will be dead by then only (30 Seconds to live."?


Cluny you said, "This was BEFORE Christ commanded His followers to teach people to observe whatever He commanded us, which include Baptism and the Eucharist."

None of the disciples taught baptism and the eucharist as essential for salvation.





[The sacraments] bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, therefore, in a certain manner the sacrament of Christ's body is Christ's body, and the sacrament of Christ's blood is Christ's blood (Augustine, Letter 98, From Augustine to Boniface).
---john9346 on 9/27/15


\\Keep in mind they are going to die in 30 seconds.

Do you say "Take the Eukarist?"??

Also st Augustine warned of taking things in Scripture litteral when they should be figurative and figurative when litteral.\\

No. First I would administer emergency baptism and send for a Priest to bring him Communion.

Next, you would be much more effective if you learned how to spell words like Eucharist and literal properly.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/15


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When the Disciples didn't understand something, or misunderstood Jesus, they were CORRECTED by Jesus.

Sometimes they didn't have to say a word and Jesus CORRECTED them.

You want me to believe that the MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING ever given by Jesus, Jesus REFUSES to CLARIFY Himself?

Lazarus being asleep that needed more clarification than Jesus's Body and Blood being food and drink?

The Parable of the Sower is more important.

Thinking He was a Ghost twice: Corrected twice

Ran out of Bread and Jesus was mad: Corrected.

Disciples arguing about who will be first: Corrected.
Seat at His Side in Heaven: Corrected

Only once the Disciples were not CORRECTED because they were not WRONG. JOHN 6:66
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/25/15


Mark Eaton said, "I am confused about this "receiving" you do during the Eucharist. In this "receiving" of the entire self of Jesus, is Jesus making the sacrifice every time you receive the Eucharist? I believe Scripture teaches us that Jesus does not need to make the sacrifice over and over."

Nor does He. It is the same Mystical Sacrifice, where He gave Himself on the Cross. It is that sacrifice that we partake of when we receive the Eucharist.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/25/15


It was His ENTIRE SELF that was offered, and it is this ENTIRE CHRIST we Orthodox receive in the Eucharist.
---Cluny on 9/24/15

Let us reason together.

I am confused about this "receiving" you do during the Eucharist. In this "receiving" of the entire self of Jesus, is Jesus making the sacrifice every time you receive the Eucharist? I believe Scripture teaches us that Jesus does not need to make the sacrifice over and over.

Heb. 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Heb. 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/15


Cluny said, "And since Jesus commanded us to "do this," it is therefore ESSENTIAL."

so, if someone on a dying bed has only 30 seconds to live ask, "What must I do to be save?"

Keep in mind they are going to die in 30 seconds.

Do you say "Take the Eukarist?"??

Also st Augustine warned of taking things in Scripture litteral when they should be figurative and figurative when litteral.

see John 6:63
---john9346 on 9/25/15


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\\When the thief on the cross accepted Jesus he was not baptized nor did he take communion. Yet he will be in heaven.\\

This was BEFORE Christ commanded His followers to teach people to observe whatever He commanded us, which include Baptism and the Eucharist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/25/15


Mark Eaton said, "Within the blog "Essentials of Christianity" only Cluny listed the Eucharist and Baptism as essentials."

Even though I don't reply to every blog (Cluny usually beats me to it!) I almost always agree with Cluny and the Church Fathers.

Baptism and the Eucharist ARE essential--anything Jesus commands us to do is essential.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/24/15


"And just what was offered in His atoning sacrifice?" His life.
---josef on 9/24/15


When the thief on the cross accepted Jesus he was not baptized nor did he take communion. Yet he will be in heaven.

To take communion and be baptized are steps you take in obedience because you have been Born Again.

Once you are Born Again you have received salvation.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/24/15


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\\if we were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood, it would not have the power to save us. Jesus saved us through His atoning sacrifice.\\

And just what was offered in His atoning sacrifice? His right little toenail and left sideburn?

It was His ENTIRE SELF that was offered, and it is this ENTIRE CHRIST we Orthodox receive in the Eucharist.

And since Jesus commanded us to "do this," it is therefore ESSENTIAL.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/15


Cluny: Do you feel obligated to respond to 99.99% of the CN blogs? Besides when you're getting your Depends changed, don't they have other activities at the home to peek your interest? You're like a game show contestant, such a Johnny on the spot with the blogs! :D
---Leon on 9/23/15


Monk_Brendan even if we were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood, it would not have the power to save us. Jesus saved us through His atoning sacrifice. Although taking on His character, and absorbing into our mind His sacrifice on our behalf, which is what I believe that means, helps us to embrace His salvation, it dose not save us, He did and does, again, through His sacrifice, inspiration, and influence.
---josef on 9/23/15


Brendan asked, "In the False Gospels quiz, why is #11 false??

Because the bible doesn't teach the Lord's Supper is required for salvation see Eph 2:8-9, Mk 1:15, Acts 3:19, Romans 3:23-28 and 5:1.

The Lord's Supper is a matter of sanctification not that of salvation.

In other words, taking the Lord's supper is a non-essential.
---john9346 on 9/24/15


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But the Body and Blood of Jesus are part of the Lord, and therefore, salvific.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/23/15

Within the blog "Essentials of Christianity" only Cluny listed the Eucharist and Baptism as essentials.

Does this mean that you do not see Baptism and the Eucharist as essential to salvation? Also, do you see Baptism and the Eucharist as necessary for salvation?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/15


Protestants do not consider Mass salvational.

We are save by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

1Corithians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,

See verse 1 where Paul says this is the Gospel.

No action that humans can do adds to the saving word done by Jesus Christ. We are saved by Grace alone.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/23/15


One of the questions and desired answer linked Papal infallibility (though not under that name) with personal righteousness.

Pastor aeternus never said the pope was incapable of sinning, but defined infallibility in strictly NEGATIVE terms.

I'll let Nicole go into this more deeply.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/23/15


Josef said, ""In the False Gospels quiz, why is #11 false?" It is not, it is in fact true that "Doctrine that teaches that the Lord's Supper has saving power is faulty doctrine." The only saving power is the Lord Jesus, The Christ."

But the Body and Blood of Jesus are part of the Lord, and therefore, salvific.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/23/15


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I just took the quiz. My feelings are mixed about it. A lot of the questions need a context and can be ambiguous. For example, Paul in Acts used idol worship, an entertainment for the Greeks, to show the character of Christ. Actions are good but the motive behind the action is most important.
As far as #11, communion is a great symbol of salvation it is not an element of salvation.
---Scott1 on 9/23/15


Where is this false gospels quiz?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/22/15


"In the False Gospels quiz, why is #11 false?" It is not, it is in fact true that "Doctrine that teaches that the Lord's Supper has saving power is faulty doctrine." The only saving power is the Lord Jesus, The Christ.
---josef on 9/22/15


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