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Are There Many Types Catholics

In a (closed) blog, John9346 said "There are 242 rcc denominations and 781 orthodox denominations.

Does anyone have an idea of where those factoids came from?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 9/24/15
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Brendan states, "I have NEVER suggested that sola Ekklesia was the way to go."

Sir, do you not agree with the following:

"It was the Catholic Church and no other which selected and listed the inspired books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament...If you can accept the Bible or any part of it as inspired Word of God, you can do so only because the Catholic Church says it is." (The Bible is a Catholic Book, p. 4).

"The only authority which non-Catholics have for the inspiration of the Scriptures is the authority of the Catholic Church." (The Faith of Millions, p. 145)

Also, do you not agree with the posted statements from Vatican 2?
---john9346 on 10/26/15


John 9346 said, "4. sola Ekklesia is not biblical as you all are teaching."

I have NEVER suggested that sola Ekklesia was the way to go. What I have continually said is the The Catholic/Orthodox Church decided (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) what texts were to be used in the canon of the Bible.

I have also said that Barrett, et al. have used faulty methodology in arriving at 242 RCC denominations. The Catholic Church is an international organization, and all of the baptized faithful belong to that one Church.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/19/15


Cluny stated, "
But the Savior Himself said that devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of a relationship with Him. Did you know that?"


Correction, in context, jn 5:39-47 Jesus is rebuking the jews for not believing "Scripture." that prophesied his coming.

Also, JOHN a bible study program for orthodox disagrees with your interpretation of verses and agrees with me.

Nicole said, "If you wouldn't search a Church looking Jesus also means you wouldn't search the Temple Jesus was in while been by his family."

Well many did search these things, but what did Jesus rebuke and held the leaders accountable for that they read the Scriptures and did not believe them.
---john9346 on 10/19/15


Samuel, that's EXACTLY the passage I was thinking about.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/15


Cluny if you make a statement you should back it up with the verse and why.

John 5:39,40
Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/16/15




\\Yes Jesus pointed to the Pharisees who added tradition as being equal to scripture as some who could let scripture come between them and Jesus\\

Actually, Samuel, that's NOT the context of what Jesus said.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/15/15


Jesus is the word not a church Jesus never said, "If you are looking for me, come to the church." He said, "My Word-john9346 on 10/15/15

Thank God you were not trusted to be His foster father and your wife His mother.

If you wouldn't search a Church looking Jesus also means you wouldn't search the Temple Jesus was in while been by his family.

His Parents were devote Jews and went to the Temple
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/15/15


Yes Jesus pointed to the Pharisees who added tradition as being equal to scripture as some who could let scripture come between them and Jesus.

They would not listen to Jesus because he explained the scripture correctly instead of the false way they did by their traditions.

But when we study the Bible to look for Jesus with prayer and a heart open to the word of GOD. Then we will find the truth. For we will love Jesus above all else in the world.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/15/15


\\The Lord Jesus Christ is only found in his Word (the bible) \\

But the Savior Himself said that devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of a relationship with Him. Did you know that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/15/15


Nicole, cluny, and brendan,

1. The Lord Jesus Christ is only found in his Word (the bible)

2. The church (ekklesia) is a group of people not an institution.

3. Jesus is the word not a church Jesus never said, "If you are looking for me, come to the church." He said, "My Word."

4. sola Ekklesia is not biblical as you all are teaching.

5. Why would Jesus tell us to trust a "Church." that is not infallible??
Jesus establishes truth upon himself because he is the only one who is infallible not rc or eo.
---john9346 on 10/15/15




Samuel BB said, "But in the RCC and other churches. Traditions are kept over the Commandments of GOD."

Prove it! I know you can't, because it is not true.

Bishop Fulton Sheen said, There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.

Take the time to KNOW your enemy before you persecute them.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/15/15


But in the RCC and other churches. Traditions are kept over the Commandments of GOD.---Samuelbb7 on 10/13/15

You are killing me!!!

I am offering to debate, but you refuse.
You throw mud and run to hide.

Give CCC # that tells us Catholics to hold a Tradition that is against the Commandment?

Just one, you can do it.

Lets discuss it like an adult.

Please, stop throwing mud and stand still and DEBATE!
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/14/15


The disciples of Jesus follow his words and commandments.

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments...

But in the RCC and other churches. Traditions are kept over the Commandments of GOD.

Jesus said pray to the Father.

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

But many pray to the dead and not to the father.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/13/15


Salvation is only found in Jesus alone, not a church/denomination.---john9346 on 10/13/15

You are confused. Jesus is the head of the body which is the bride.
Jesus calls Himself the bridegroom
Jesus is uniting Himself with the Church.

You can't be Jesus' best man and reject the Bride.

What kind of Wedding Feast do think you are going to be at without a Bride.

Remember, the Wedding is always about the Bride, Bride, and bride.

We are family as Jesus design it.
Marriage, then come children.

That's you and I.
You can not disconnect from the Church.

Jesus is sitting at the head of the Table.
Go sit down.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/13/15


Salvation is only found in Jesus alone, not a church/denomination. ---john9346 on 10/13/15

If Salvation is only found in Jesus alone then Jesus alone MAKES all the RULES for OBTAINING SALVATION, RIGHT?

So, if Jesus didn't leave a Bible like Moses 10 Commandments for the Apostles.
No He LEFT A CHURCH which the gate of hell shall not prevail against it.

So, John are you saying that even the demons can't destroy the Church, but your words of DECLARING the Church it isn't needed as if it is destroyed by you.

Are you stronger than satan?
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/13/15


John said, "Brendan my friend,

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "
I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Salvation is only found in Jesus alone, not a church/denomination."


But can not a Church lead a sinner toward the Lord? Acts 12:5-17

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/13/15


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\\Salvation is only found in Jesus alone, not a church/denomination.
---john9346 on 10/13/15\\

And just where is Jesus to be found?

According the Gospels, He is found surrounded by His disciples.

So it is today.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/15


"For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation."

Brendan my friend,

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "
I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Salvation is only found in Jesus alone, not a church/denomination.
---john9346 on 10/13/15


John said, "Barrett's Definition of catholic denominations is clearly define based on beliefs then those beliefs in various countries."

How many stores does Tiffany Jewelers own? They're all over the world, right?

You can't break them up by countries. It is one large corporation. Or look at Coca-Cola. You can buy a Coke almost anywhere.

If you're talking about money, then, obviously, the money goes into different bank accounts. But the stockholders get a share of the take from every sterling spoon sold every year.

There aren't stockholders in the Catholic Churches, but the hierarchy is the same.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/12/15


Hi Brendan,

Barrett's Definition of catholic denominations is clearly define based on beliefs then those beliefs in various countries.

The rc has released a statement on this issue, "Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only."

Vatican 2 decree on ecumenism (introduction)


"For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation."
Ch 1 par 3 Vatican 2
---john9346 on 10/11/15


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Christians, people in Christ, ARE the church not a denomination or a building.

Just by the way the word "church" is used confirms this: "I didn't see you in church today," "Our church is better than (name your competitive church)" (within and without the denomination), "Our church has a great holiday program (name your holiday, Easter, Christmas, etc), Our church has a great (pastor, choir, sound system, padded seats, services, classes, " etc.

Counterfeit christians are adamant about what denomination they belong: "i am of Lutheran", "I am of Baptist," "I am of Orthodox," "I am of Catholic," "I am of Protestant," etc.

Is Christ divided?
---Steveng on 10/11/15


Cluny stated, "This just shows how little what you think corresponds with reality, john."

"In Orthodox theology, salvation is not static but dynamic," "it is not a completed state,"
"And it can never be achieved fully in this life," (Coniaris, Anthony M.

correction, see 1 Jn 5:13, Rom 5:1, 10:13, Act 4:12, jn 5:24

The Jesus of Holy Scripture guarantees salvation today "In this Life time." for those who will trust him and repent of their sins against him...
---john9346 on 10/10/15


John said, "...the only reason why you state, "The definition of denomination as quoted by Barrett et. al. is wrong." is because rcc says its wrong..."

The definition of denomination is skewed, because Barrett et. al. is counting every country as a different church, where the Catholics in other countries are just as Catholic as the Pope. The Catholic Church has never issued any statement about whether World Christian Encyclopedia:etc. is wrong or right. I am saying that Barrett et. al. is wrong in sorting churches by country.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/9/15


\\well according to rc and eo terminology and comparing with the bible no my friend...
\\

This just shows how little what you think corresponds with reality, john.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/15


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Cluny asked, "And you think I haven't?"

well according to rc and eo terminology and comparing with the bible no my friend...

1 jn 1:8 is correct,however, you misunderstand this verse John was addressing people "gnostics." who never believed they committed a sin at all.

Cluny my friend big difference in order to be forgiven of sins you must realize you have sinned.
---john9346 on 10/8/15


\\Cluny my friend, I have been forgiven of my sins and pardon from God's Wrath by placing my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who is a perfect Saviour and a Perfect High Priest who is able to save.\\

And you think I haven't?

OTOH, St. John says, "If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth [Jesus] is NOT IN US!"

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/15


Cluny asked, "How about you, john? Do you have sin? Are you worthy of God's wrath?"

Cluny my friend, I have been forgiven of my sins and pardon from God's Wrath by placing my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who is a perfect Saviour and a Perfect High Priest who is able to save...

See, Eph 2:1-9, Rom 3:10-26, and Heb 7:22-28. Jn
---john9346 on 10/7/15


\\Brendan, God is holy, righteous, and pure and you are a sinner who has sin against him worthy of his wrath.
\\

How about you, john? Do you have sin? Are you worthy of God's wrath?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/6/15


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Hi Brendan,

Thank you for your comment and please accept my mutual feelings of respect towards you.

I believe, the only reason why you state, "The definition of denomination as quoted by Barrett et. al. is wrong." is because rcc says its wrong. i sincerely hope and pray you will go further to investigate.

Brendan, God is holy, righteous, and pure and you are a sinner who has sin against him worthy of his wrath.

The Lord Jesus Christ commands you to place your trust in him and repent of your sins my friend to be save, It is not in a church

see Luke 13:1-5, Jn 1:12-13, Mk 1:15, and Acts 3:19.
---john9346 on 10/6/15


Variety is good.
---santimoy.kumar on 10/6/15


\\Your choosing orthodox/catholic universal "mysticism" preference, is understood better by your past pentecostal background that wasn't mystical enough for you.\\

In other words, you don't know a single thing about Latin mysticism, or to what you are objecting.

And I'm certainly not looking for feelings. In fact, I've repeatedly warned people here that the true Life in our Savior has NOTHING to do with chasing after feelings or experiences.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/15


As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, Trav,
Which ones do you especially have in mind?
---Cluny on 9/29/15

"The same ones you are "especially" proud of. But, can't produce/post scriptural justification/witnesses for.

Your choosing orthodox/catholic universal "mysticism" preference, is understood better by your past pentecostal background that wasn't mystical enough for you. You don't want to understand it...you just want a feeling. And is why you don't confirm anything by scripture but, rather use the conflicting history of orthodoxy to justify what you can't.
2Ti_3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
---Trav on 10/1/15


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\\Unnecessary are beads, permissions or unscriptural doctrines, latin mysticism to point out the Good News "witnesses" to "Sheep". Christ provides.. \\

As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, Trav, I would like to ask you just what particular points you really KNOW about Latin mysticism.

Which ones do you especially have in mind?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/15


A Methodist from Ohio can't stand up in a Methodist church in Canada without permission ...
---Monk_Brendan on 9/27/15

Good point. No authorization for any denom in scripture, more especially yours. A Christian seeking "Lost Sheep", can be anywhere anytime the Lord places him. Unnecessary are beads, permissions or unscriptural doctrines, latin mysticism to point out the Good News "witnesses" to "Sheep". Christ provides..
Eze_34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, none did search or seek after them.
Eze_34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
---Trav on 9/29/15


John,

I respect your candor and honesty. However, I have a problem.

The definition of denomination as quoted by Barrett et. al. is wrong. If you use that model, then there are 242 Roman Catholic Churches, each in a separate country. But that is not the truth. The Roman Catholic Church is one large denomination, all by itself.

Bishops and priests may cross borders, liturgize in foreign countries, etc. A Methodist from Ohio can't stand up in a Methodist church in Canada without permission from his bishop and the bishop of the locality in Canada.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/27/15


cluny said, "Next, the Monophysites, by definition, are not Orthodox."

And the oriental orthodox say they are "orthodox." (monophysites)
---john9346 on 9/27/15


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Hi Brendan,

please quote source properly.

listen:


Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country, i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions.
(Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)





rcc and eo are in definition.
---john9346 on 9/27/15


Using World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world, we find

As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 9/26/15


\\So are you saying the dictionary is wrong \\

Yes, I am.

Next, the Monophysites, by definition, are not Orthodox.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/15


Cluny you said, "john, there is only ONE Roman Catholic Church. The others are schismatic bodies. "The '781 Orthodox denominations" are properly called jurisdictions. Which are canonical and which are not does not concern us here."

So are you saying the dictionary is wrong have you ever read page 16 of the dictionary??

It states, "denominations."

There are various divides among orthodox churches 1 extremely important is the Monophysite Controversy.
---john9346 on 9/25/15


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No there isn't. Note they are called denominations and not Churches.

To be a Church you have a Priesthood like Melchizedek of old.

If you know what I am talking about you belong to a Christian Church.

If not then you are most likely belong to a denomination of Christians.

Cluny is correct, the others are schismatic bodies.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/25/15


john, there is only ONE Roman Catholic Church. The others are schismatic bodies.

The '781 Orthodox denominations" are properly called jurisdictions. Which are canonical and which are not does not concern us here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/25/15


Brendan said, "Does anyone have an idea of where those factoids came from?"

Well those "Factoids." comes from the very same source that Roman Catholic Apologists use to say that there are "33000 Protestant Denominations."

See, source below:


World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world
Second Edition, David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson Oxford University Press, 2001.
---john9346 on 9/24/15


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