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Favor The KJV Bible

Most people here do not believe in infant baptism, baptism in any other way than total immersion, episcopacy, hierarchy, or a fixed liturgy.

Why then do so many favor a Bible, namely the KJV, translated by people who not only practiced but defended all these things?

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 ---Cluny on 10/9/15
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However, the gospel was preached to Cornelius, not everyone in his household, yet the whole household was baptized anyway
---StrongAxe on 10/28/15

You need to reread the passage.

Acts 10:24 "And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends"

Acts 10:44 "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word"

Cornelius and his household met Peter. They were all gathered together. They all heard the message, believed, and were all filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is the reason the whole household was baptized.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/15


Mark_Eaton:

I said: We can speculate all we want. However, blind speculation is never a good basis for deriving sound doctrine.

You said: Neither is assumption.

You are making an assumption that the household of Cornelius contained children, when children are not listed.

Prove to me definitively based on Scripture that children WERE baptized in the household of Cornelius.


I don't know definitively whether there were actually any children there or not. However, the gospel was preached to Cornelius, not everyone in his household, yet the whole household was baptized anyway, meaning some were baptized who may not have made full prior commitments, children or not.
---StrongAxe on 10/28/15


Samuel, StrongAxe explained Original sin well.

State how you think the RCC believes differently with CCC # please.

Adam is the Original Person.
Eve was created from Adam.

If you got a flu from me and gave it to 10 others who gave it to 5 others each infecting 61 total, who is the original carrier? Me

But you still can catch other contagious infection beside the flu I gave you.

Only means you have the original flu plus your own infection.

Original sin plus personal sins.


Some Catholics call Anointing of the sick the Last Rites also.
They are still wrong.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/27/15


We can speculate all we want. However, blind speculation is never a good basis for deriving sound doctrine.
---StrongAxe on 10/23/15

Neither is assumption.

You are making an assumption that the household of Cornelius contained children, when children are not listed.

Prove to me definitively based on Scripture that children WERE baptized in the household of Cornelius.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/26/15


Nicole I had heard that but I had never had confirmation that Limbo was rejected. Some Catholics I know still speak of it.

But Purgatory still exists.

Strongax. I agree with you. But when I have read what original sin is in the RCC teaching it is not the same as you just stated.

Also does a sinful nature damn a person to hell? We are actually having a discussion on this in our church. It has be going on for a few years.

I am in the camp that until a person knowingly commits a sin they are not guilty of sin. While others have the opposite view.

I don't see a resolution of the two sides in the near future.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/26/15




I should have mentioned that Orthodox never accepted Limbo.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/26/15


Mark_Eaton:

You said: But to use your own logic, no mention of minors does not mean that minors were baptized.

And it doesn't say they weren't, either.

No wife or children is listed in the story. We could speculate that Cornelius, a soldier by trade, did not marry and was childless having only adults in his household.

We can speculate all we want. However, blind speculation is never a good basis for deriving sound doctrine.
---StrongAxe on 10/23/15


Actuallly, Limbo was never de fide, but merely a wide spread theologoumenon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/23/15


Samuel, did you know that the RCC doesn't teach Limbo anymore.

Pope Benedict XV1 officially dropped that term 'Limbo' saying we don't know what happens to babies who dies and having been baptized.

He also states that We KNOW the MERCY of God is always Merciful and NEVER changes.

It is a mystery.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/23/15


Did you forget Cornelius, who was baptized "with all his household", and no mention of excluding minors?
---StrongAxe on 10/22/15

But to use your own logic, no mention of minors does not mean that minors were baptized.

No wife or children is listed in the story. We could speculate that Cornelius, a soldier by trade, did not marry and was childless having only adults in his household.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/15




Samuelbb7:

You wrote:A baby has not committed any sins.

The confusion arises because the word "sin" is used to two related but different things.

First, when one "commits a sin", one commits a sinful ACT.

Second, when one has a sinful NATURE (which all humans, including babies, inherit from Adam), he is predisposed to committing sinful ACTS, even if he hasn't actually done so yet. This is what "original sin" is.

No mention of baptism to keep children out of limbo. Or do those who die go to hell and burn forever?

Did you forget Cornelius, who was baptized "with all his household", and no mention of excluding minors?
---StrongAxe on 10/22/15


Thanks for the scripture.
I thought you were referring to some type of water baptism.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit
---michael_e on 10/22/15


//The Bible says that baptism is to commemorate Jesus' death, burial and resurrection//
BCV Please

---michael_e on 10/21/15


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


---jerry6593 on 10/22/15


Why would Jerry not understand repentance?

True Christian baptism is not the same. But for both repentance is required.

A baby has not committed any sins. Nor is there any thing such as original sin where the Baby has committed a sin for being born. Or as some say the baby is born guilty of sin.

1Corithians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they holy.

No mention of baptism to keep children out of limbo. Or do those who die go to hell and burn forever?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/21/15


\\Repenting is not something infants understand.
\\

Do any of us really understand it?

Do you, jerry?

Besides, Christian baptism is not the same thing as John's baptism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/15


//The Bible says that baptism is to commemorate Jesus' death, burial and resurrection//
BCV Please
---michael_e on 10/21/15


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Mark E: Good comments about baptism! The Bible says that baptism is to commemorate Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. I don't think infants would understand the significance of these concepts.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was a great prophet. John said "REPENT and be baptized". My wife and I raised three children. Repenting is not something infants understand.



joseph: You are right on that the practices of the translators are irrelevant. Only the veracity of the source text is germane. That's why I prefer the KJV.


---jerry6593 on 10/21/15


"Why then do so many favor a Bible, namely the KJV, translated by people who not only practiced but defended all these things?" What the translators practiced or defended should have been irrelevant concerning the translation, although some of their bias probably did infiltrate the version.
---joseph on 10/17/15


\\If I put two and two together from your statements, you have stated that Jesus Himself said that water baptism IS the new birth and you are baptizing infants. Therefore, you are saying that infants are saved and that you are "giving" out salvation with every person you baptize.
\\

But you're using incorrect values of 2.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/15


You can't wring a drop of water out of these words...
---Cluny on 10/13/15

But perhaps I can get you to see this:

If I put two and two together from your statements, you have stated that Jesus Himself said that water baptism IS the new birth and you are baptizing infants. Therefore, you are saying that infants are saved and that you are "giving" out salvation with every person you baptize.

Let me respond thusly: first Jesus never said baptism is the new birth. Jesus said the new birth is a spiritual birth, born from above. Second, salvation only comes to those who call upon the Lord. To those who believe on the name of Jesus. Unless I am incorrect, infants do not fully think or speak yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/14/15


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faithforfaith:

You wrote: The word "believe" is spelled a certain way (as with many/all words). It refers to the act of choosing a knowledge base according to one's LIKES and preferences Whenever that is done, the individual will be understanding and accepting a LIE (BE-lie-VE).

No, it's from Middle English "bileven", Old English "gelefan", cognate with Dutch "gelooven" and German "glauben".

Similar wordplay could claim justice is "just ice", deliverance comes from the liver, and necromancers practice romance.

Redefining a word to mean just what you want it to mean - isn't that just what your message is itself complaining about?
---StrongAxe on 10/14/15


\\The word "believe" is spelled a certain way (as with many/all words). It refers to the act of choosing a knowledge base according to one's LIKES and preferences Whenever that is done, the individual will be understanding and accepting a LIE (BE-lie-VE).
\\

Just like you, faithforfaith.

BTW, this is NOT the etymology of the word "believe".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/15


\\Rom 6:5-9 " For if we have been UNITED TOGETHER in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, KNOWING THIS that our old man was crucified with Him....Now if we died with Christ, WE BELIEVE that we shall also live with Him, KNOWING THAT Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more..."\\

You can't wring a drop of water out of these words, Mark.


Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/15


Steven G. said "They have no concept of baptism, sinning, the transgression of the law, repentance, the Ten Commandments, God, Jesus and all the other teachings of the bible...."

Do you understand the transgression of the law, repentance, the Ten Commandments? or any of the other things brought up? I certainly cannot presume upon God to say that I have a full understanding of anything!

What I can do is take one step at a time with the Lord being a lamp unto my feet. Psalm 119:105

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/13/15


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Where did you get the idea baptism was a conscious identification with the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ...And Jesus Himself said that water baptism IS the new birth.
---Cluny on 10/13/15

You need to review these Scriptures:

Rom 6:5-9 " For if we have been UNITED TOGETHER in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, KNOWING THIS that our old man was crucified with Him....Now if we died with Christ, WE BELIEVE that we shall also live with Him, KNOWING THAT Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more..."

John 3:5 "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/15


\\If the person being baptized does not identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and has no new birth, what is the purpose of baptism?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/15
\\

Where did you get the idea baptism was a conscious identification with the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ? That's nowhere in the Bible.

And Jesus Himself said that water baptism IS the new birth.

Read 1 Cor 10, how ALL the Israelites (including the little ones) were baptized into Moses in the cloud and sea, and ALL ate and drank the same spiritual food and beverage.

Yes, we give Communion to baptized infants.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/15


1Co 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
Pretty interesting that infants are "addicting themselves to the ministry of the saints."
---micha9344 on 10/13/15


Be honest. Does anyone here really "understand"?
---Cluny on 10/12/15

Okay, answer me this.

If the person being baptized does not identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and has no new birth, what is the purpose of baptism?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/15


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\\The child, who may not understand that we are identifying with Christ in baptism so that we can be raised with Christ into a new life, as a new creation.\\

To say we have to have "understand" for God to work in our lives is nothing more or less than Gnosticism.

Be honest. Does anyone here really "understand"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/15


Mark_Eaton:

I said: Note Cornelius was baptized "and all his household", not "just those who had attained the Age of Accountability".

You said: But I would suggest that today infant baptism is not the entire family being baptized but only the child.

That's because parents are usually already baptized.

The child, who may not understand that we are identifying with Christ in baptism so that we can be raised with Christ into a new life, as a new creation. Without this new life, the baptism is only water.

And how is this any different from Cornelius's children?
---StrongAxe on 10/12/15


Cluny said, "Nothing in the passage that says this."

See 43-45



Strongaxe states, " Not a single verse in this passage says that any of these are required for baptism, nor that there are any to be excluded for lacking any specific behaviors, beliefs, or understandings. Care to try again?"

See verses 43-45 also no where in Acts or any where else are individuals baptized before believing always believe then baptism.

---john9346 on 10/12/15


The Bible has been trusted, all along. So, false people claim the Bible, so they can piggy-back on the trust people have for the Bible.

There are ones who claim the Bible but never talk about how >

God has perfected His people in His love > 1 John 4:17.

Jesus gives us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) while we obey Him.

We seek our Father for His personal correction in each of us > Hebrews 12:4-11.

Jesus' "sheep" (not only His leaders) can tell the difference between a pastor and a predator > John 10:1-31, 1 Timothy 3:1-10, Hebrews 5:13-14, 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
---Bill on 10/12/15


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Babies, infants and small children CANNOT be baptised.

Are these children able to acknowledge that they are sinners? Can they repent of their own accord? Do they have knowledge of sinning and repentance? When holseholds were baptised, the elders of the household acknowledged that they were sinners and were expected to train up their children the way they should go.
---Steveng on 10/12/15


Note Cornelius was baptized "and all his household", not "just those who had attained the Age of Accountability".
---StrongAxe on 10/11/15

But I would suggest that today infant baptism is not the entire family being baptized but only the child. The child, who may not understand that we are identifying with Christ in baptism so that we can be raised with Christ into a new life, as a new creation. Without this new life, the baptism is only water.

Rom 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/15


When I was a teenager we used the KJV. My current place of Worship uses the NIV. I use them both as cross references along with with the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
---Rob on 10/12/15


\\As you read, you will come to see all those who believed in Cornelius's House believed and were baptized not baptized and then believed.\\

Nothing in the passage that says this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/15


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john9346:

I said: Nice theory, but can you cite any scriptures that say all these are required for baptism?

You said: see, Acts 10:33-48.

Not a single verse in this passage says that any of these are required for baptism, nor that there are any to be excluded for lacking any specific behaviors, beliefs, or understandings. Care to try again?
---StrongAxe on 10/12/15


strongaxe said, "

Nice theory, but can you cite any scriptures that say all these are required for baptism? Note Cornelius was baptized "and all his household", not "just those who had attained the Age of Accountability".
As you read, you will come to see all those who believed in Cornelius's House believed and were baptized not baptized and then believed.

see, Acts 10:33-48.
---john9346 on 10/11/15


//Remember where Paul baptized the HOUSEHOLD of Stephanas?//
The assumption here is there were infants in this household.
Paul did baptize a few. He was a Jew ministering to Jews Baptism was a part of Jewish conversion practice.
Why did Paul stop baptizing?
Paul was sent to Gentiles with a gospel of grace without works, Paul stopped ministering to Jews, the Lord sent Paul not to baptize, and the preaching of the cross makes water baptism of none effect
---michael_e on 10/11/15


//Babies, infants and small children cannot be baptized.//

Yes they can and are by the millions a year, thanks be to God!

//One must recognize they are sinners (of which children cannot), repent of their sins (of which they have no concept), and be baptised ( of which children don't understand the meaning).---Steveng on 10/11/15

Ever heard of Original Sin?
That is why they are baptized. Not because of any personal sin. But because of Adam's sin which is a stain on everyone's soul. (except for Mary the Mother of God)
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/11/15


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Steveng:

You said: Babies, infants and small children cannot be baptised.

Yet millions are. Perhaps you meant should not be baptized?

They have no concept of baptism, sinning, the transgression of the law, repentance, the Ten Commandments, God, Jesus and all the other teachings of the bible. ... One must recognize they are sinners (of which children cannot), repent of their sins (of which they have no concept), and be baptised ( of which children don't understand the meaning).

Nice theory, but can you cite any scriptures that say all these are required for baptism? Note Cornelius was baptized "and all his household", not "just those who had attained the Age of Accountability".
---StrongAxe on 10/11/15


Babies, infants and small children cannot be baptised.

They have no concept of baptism, sinning, the transgression of the law, repentance, the Ten Commandments, God, Jesus and all the other teachings of the bible. People are born into sin becasue they don't have the knowledge of these things. If a child is grown without guidance that child becomes feral and nothing more than an animal.

One must recognize they are sinners (of which children cannot), repent of their sins (of which they have no concept), and be baptised ( of which children don't understand the meaning).
---Steveng on 10/11/15


\\Micha said, "Most denominations of which I am aware have a form of episcopacy, hierarchy, and fixed liturgy, unless I am generalizing too much."\\

Not the Baptists. They boast about not having one, but believing in congregational independence and the soul authority of the individual believer to interpret the Bible for himself.

Of course, woe betide those congregations or individuals whose faith, practice, and interpretation differs too much from those surrounding.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/15


\\Please refer me to where Paul instructs infant baptism or how to baptize ,my young friend.
---michael_e on 10/10/15\\

Remember where Paul baptized the HOUSEHOLD of Stephanas?

OIKOS (same as FAMILIAS in Latin) included not only the descendants of the head of the household and his wife (PATERFAMILIAS in Latin), but infants and even servants and clients.

To put it another way, there is no use of OIKOS/FAMILIAS in ancient literature that did NOT include the little ones.

jerry, the Church fathers used the Textus receptus. Alexandrinus and Vaticanus were not discovered until the 19th centuries, as I recall. Can you tell us what pagan teachings are in these last?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/15


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Yes, Chira, very important to trust the Lord.
---santimoy.kumar on 10/10/15


//References to these practices are found in the Pauline epistles, even in the KJV, michael e.//
Please refer me to where Paul instructs infant baptism or how to baptize ,my young friend.
---michael_e on 10/10/15


cluny: Once again you instigate a false narrative based on false assumptions. I is not the beliefs and practices of the translators, nor the accuracy of the translation itself that is of greatest importance, but rather the content of the scriptures themselves that is edifying. Only the KJV descends from the COMPLETE Received Text without the Jesus-diminishing alterations and deletions by pagan-leaning early church fathers characteristic of the Sinaticus or Vaticanus texts.


---jerry6593 on 10/10/15


---santimoy.kumar on 10/9/15

I do think that some bibles are better than others, however, what is more important is a trust in the Lord, as He is able to reach, to save, regardless of a version used. If one uses a poor translation, God is definitely able to still make His truth known, when and as He chooses. Even so, I would hope others might have access to the most accurate translations(s). Scripture is given by God, interpretation can vary, as seen here for example. Again, God is able to make His truth known and corrects.
---Chria9396 on 10/10/15


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Because they believe the KJV gives them freedom from God.

No one is going to tell them how to worship God.
No one.
Not even God.

God told the Jewish people exactly how to worship Him.

But, ooooooooooooooooh no. God wouldn't continue to tell us Christians how to worship Him.

NO, no, no, no! God gave them Freedom!

The Holy Spirit was sent just to allow thousands of people worship God a thousand different ways.

That's makes sense.

Right?
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/9/15


Are some bibles better than others?
---santimoy.kumar on 10/9/15


\\Apparently our apostle Paul didn't believe In it either, or maybe his letters were translated by different translators.\\

References to these practices are found in the Pauline epistles, even in the KJV, michael e.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/9/15


//Most people here do not believe in infant baptism, baptism in any other way than total immersion, episcopacy, hierarchy, or a fixed liturgy.//
Apparently our apostle Paul didn't believe In it either, or maybe his letters were translated by different translators.
---michael_e on 10/9/15


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\\I'd have to research whether you're statement, "translated by people who not only practiced but defended all these things", is entirely accurate.
\\

Who do you think translated the KJV? Baptists?

The translators of the KJV were all ministers (priests) of the Church of England, where the things I listed were the norm.

Even the Puritans had a fixed liturgy and practiced infant baptism by pouring.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/9/15


Micha said, "Most denominations of which I am aware have a form of episcopacy, hierarchy, and fixed liturgy, unless I am generalizing too much."

Way too much! The Assemblies of God do not have an episcopacy, nor a fixed liturgy. There is a hierarchy, but it is not all all fixed. The senior pastor tells his assistants what the subject of the sermon is going to be, and then the music minister has to find music that will suite the sermon. The only thing fixed item at every service is the collection.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 10/9/15


The word "believe" is spelled a certain way (as with many/all words). It refers to the act of choosing a knowledge base according to one's LIKES and preferences Whenever that is done, the individual will be understanding and accepting a LIE (BE-lie-VE).

People choose WHAT THEY LIKE/prefer to accept as the truth (do you BELIEVE what your name is, or do you KNOW what your name is?).

This is known as being POLITICAL (choosing preferences). The same is done with the KJV because of the romantic mystery, heroic and intellectual attractiveness to the average human being (the DRAMA is irresistable to human nature).
---faithforfaith on 10/9/15


King James bible is very beautiful language.
---santimoy.kumar on 10/9/15


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Maybe why infants are baptized ought to be explained.
As in all discussions, many use the same word to mean different things.
Continuing with the same meaning helps the discussion.
As far as "full immersion", isn't that from which the Greek word derives?
Most denominations of which I am aware have a form of episcopacy, hierarchy, and fixed liturgy, unless I am generalizing too much.
I'd have to research whether you're statement, "translated by people who not only practiced but defended all these things", is entirely accurate.
Until then, lets see where this thread goes...
---micha9344 on 10/9/15


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