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Eastern Orthodox Doctrines

People on here have said that Eastern Orthodox doctrines develop. Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?

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 ---Cluny on 11/1/15
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OOoops! I said, "Seeing as how Pius XXI was dead before Dr. Mark Miravalle was born proves that he was not the first to propose this doctrine."

I meant to say Pius XII, as we haven't gotten to a Pius 21, yet. Please forgive the error.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/16/15


Brendan states, "
Nevertheless, the teaching of Mary being co-redemptrix is a heresy, and it was denied by Pope St. John XXIII and Pius XII. Seeing as how Pius XXI was dead before Dr. Mark Miravalle was born proves that he was not the first to propose this doctrine."

Again, Dr. Miravalle if you read what I said sir is the author of the petition to have this become dogma.

As far as this being a heresy, leading RC Apologist Tim Staples would disagree with you.

I will leave it to you and those who believe as you do to disagree, my advice to you sir is to repent/turn from your sins and trust the Jesus of Sacred Scripture alone to save you from his wrath...

May Yahweh guide you,

John
---john9346 on 11/16/15


jerry6593:

Cluny wrote: How do you know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John belong in the Bible and not The Gospel of Judas, the Letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, and the Apocalypse of St. Peter do not?

You wrote: Because they don't comport with the body of scripture.

This is circular reasoning: Isaiah (say) belongs in scripture because it agrees with the body of scripture (that is presumed to already contain Isaiah). There are some so-called apocryphal works that clearly contradict other parts of scripture, but there are also others that don't.

For example, why don't we include 2 Enoch, which Jude considers authoritative enough to quote from?
---StrongAxe on 11/16/15


Cluny,

first, the blog question is have EOC dogmas developed over time not the theotokos and ephesus.

I used that to show that referring to mary as theotokos had 2 parts:

1. It had to do with the Lord Jesus Christ and his devinity.

2. The term was unheard of until after Ephesus in AD 431.

3. Cyril when he used theotokos was referring to Nestorius which led to the title of theotokos any way.

4. There are problems with Ephrem:

a. There are countless Pseudepigrapha regarding his writings.

b. What we have of his writings were translated in to "Greek." remember he spoke the Syriac language some believe Aramaic.

Another forjury like Donation of Constantine.
---john9346 on 11/16/15


Cluny asks, "Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?"

Yes, theosis/deification.

Human beings are not gods nor will they ever become gods.


You are My witnesses, declares the Lord,
And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

11
I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me.
Isa 43:10-11

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me."


Isa 44:6
---john on 11/16/15




\\Because they don't comport with the body of scripture.\\

That's a non-answer, jerry.

It means no more than, "They are not scripture because they are not scripture."

WHO determined they did not "comport with the body of scripture"?

A list didn't come down from heaven, did it?
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/15


John 9346 said, "Sir, with respect to you, Dr. Mark Miravalle is the head behind this petition he is not a heretic in rcc..."

Nevertheless, the teaching of Mary being co-redemptrix is a heresy, and it was denied by Pope St. John XXIII and Pius XII. Seeing as how Pius XXI was dead before Dr. Mark Miravalle was born proves that he was not the first to propose this doctrine.

The concept of Co-redemption is not new. Even before the year 200, the Church Father Irenaeus referred to Mary as "causa salutis" (cause of our salvation) given her "fiat"

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/16/15


john9346, FWIW, the 25th session of the Council of Trent said that Christ alone is redeemer, and if anyone says anything to the contrary, let him be anathema.

If you want to think that Rome teaches that Mary is Co-redemptrix, go ahead, but the grown-ups know better.

However, since Mary as Co-redemptrix is NOT an Orthodox teaching, I see no reason for it to be discussed on this thread.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/15


cluny: "How do you know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John belong in the Bible and not The Gospel of Judas, the Letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, and the Apocalypse of St. Peter do not?"

Because they don't comport with the body of scripture.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.



---jerry6593 on 11/16/15


Jerry, as you wish. Good rationalization though.
---john1944 on 11/15/15




OK, children. Stop this bickering.

You present worldly knowledge astounds me. You bicker about whose denominaion is greater using worldly knowledge. Were any of you there to know the absolute truth? Your "truth" is based upon biased information in your denominaion's doctrines. When you search the internet about whose denomination is better who are the sources - someone who is for a certain denomination or someone who is against a certain denominaion. People today are too worldly educated to know what the truth is anymore.

Christianity is to build up not tear down. Is any of your bickering/debating about the worldly past preparing a person for the spritual life today and tomorrow?
---Steveng on 11/15/15


Brendan states, "
This is a petition to ask the Pope to make an infallible statement that Mary is co-redemptrix. However, this petition has been circulating since Pope John XXIII, and nothing had been done about it. It is a heresy."

Sir, with respect to you, Dr. Mark Miravalle is the head behind this petition he is not a heretic in rcc.

Dr. Miravalle, permanent deacon, earned his Sacred Theological Doctorate at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome and a teacher at the Franciscan University of Steubenville

He has appeared on EWTN Several times and is referred to in RC apologetics.
---john9346 on 11/15/15


\\The written Word is timeless, transcending generations without being "handed down".\\

How do you know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John belong in the Bible and not The Gospel of Judas, the Letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, and the Apocalypse of St. Peter do not?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/15


Here's another use of Theotokos before Council of Ephesus:

"I was completely amazed that certain people should be in any doubt as to whether the holy virgin ought to be called the Mother of God or not. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, then how is the holy virgin who bore him not Theotokos?" St. Cyril of Alexandria Born 376

Want more? I'll give them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/15


john: "Jerry, tradition is simply what is handed down from one generation to the next. Scripture falls into that category."

The written Word is timeless, transcending generations without being "handed down". When scripture is suppressed and tradition exalted, the Dark Ages result.



---jerry6593 on 11/15/15


Jerry, tradition is simply what is handed down from one generation to the next. Scripture falls into that category.
---john1944 on 11/14/15


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I have been asked for quotes to prove that "THEOTOKOS" was used before the Council of Ephesus. While I am loath to discuss Marian doctrine on these blogs, "Theotokos" is actually a word of Christological meaning.

Sorry, but I can give only one at a time because of word limitations.

"It is essential for us to confess that the holy Ever-Virgin Mary is actually Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), so as not to fall into blasphemy. For those who deny that the Holy Virgin is actually Theotokos are no longer believers, but disciples of the Pharisees and Sadducees" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, "To John the Monk"). 306-373

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/15


cluny: "The Bible is simply the written form of Tradition."

No wonder you're so confused. The Bible is the Word of God. Tradition is merely the opinion of men.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


---jerry6593 on 11/14/15


Cluny* Why? Is not Jesus infallible enough?

Were the Apostles infallible in their teaching?
Were the writers of the bible infallible?

Cluny* Filioque is the big issue.

How when the ECF and several Eastern ECF taught this?

Even scripture itself?

Rev 22:1

" The Angel also showed me the river of the water of life, sparkling like crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb"

Also the bible Speaks of the HS in the same relation to the Son as the spirit to the Father. " Spirit of the Son" (Gal 4:6) "Spirit of Christ" (Rom 8:9) "Spirit of the Father " (Mat 10:20)
---Ruben on 11/14/15


John 9346 said, ""We encourage you to prayerfully consider downloading and mailing the following petition to His Holiness, Pope Francis I, for the solemn papal definition of the Virgin Mary as the Spiritual Mother of All Peoples, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate."

This is a petition to ask the Pope to make an infallible statement that Mary is co-redemptrix. However, this petition has been circulating since Pope John XXIII, and nothing had been done about it. It is a heresy.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/13/15


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john9346, Mary as Co-redemptrix has to do with Orthodox doctrine (which it is not) just how, please?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/15


\\But the Orthodox church in the end decided to abandon Scripture as the final authority and turn to tradition. \\

Wrong.

It's Scripture WITHIN Tradition.

The Bible is simply the written form of Tradition. How else could the first couple of generations of the Church have functioned?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/15


Cluny states, "Dr. Miraville is wrong. Co-redemptrix is not now and never has been defined as a dogma."

Dr. Miravalle is a Marian Scholar, an author, and a professor of Theology.



"We encourage you to prayerfully consider downloading and mailing the following petition to His Holiness, Pope Francis I, for the solemn papal definition of the Virgin Mary as the Spiritual Mother of All Peoples, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate. You may also compose a petition in your own words, and mail it to the address listed below. Please be sure to include your name and address at the end of the petition."



Apostles of Light of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
---john9346 on 11/13/15


Cluny states, "No, you never have. I gave people and dates to the contrary."

And I stated to you that scholars and papyrologists stand against you because the Sub Tuum Praesideum is about ad 470 or later.

Also, scholars and papyronogists state of know prayers prior to Ephesus.

Now again provide chapter and verse of where you say the men you mentioned used theotokos.

Keep in mind theotokos never had anything to do with Mary, but Jesus alone...

So now chapter and verse please??
---john on 11/13/15


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True there many issues from Rome that were not in Orthodox church.

But the Orthodox church in the end decided to abandon Scripture as the final authority and turn to tradition.

Both have made the Bible subservient to the whims of men. We are to be servants of GOD and his word. Not make the Bible say what we want it to.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/12/15


\\Well I have all ready established before Ephesus there was no such usage so now that the dates are no longer a factor. \\

No, you never have. I gave people and dates to the contrary.

Glory Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/15


\\Cluny* Since we aren't going to change anything, nobody has to be infallible.

Somebody has to be.\\

Why? Is not Jesus infallible enough?

\\* That's because the issues that led to the Reformation never existed in Orthodoxy.

Really, the Pope who is infallible is a issue for both Protestant and Orthodoxy.\\

Papal infallibility became another obstacle to reconciliation only in 1871 with Vatican I.

Filioque is the big issue. Protestantism is infected with it as well. Most Protestant expressions of faith are filioquist, even that of the Assemblies of God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/15


Cluny 8 Rome originally split from us over the issues of Filioque and papal primacy.

Both sides say it was the other who left?

Cluny* Since we aren't going to change anything, nobody has to be infallible.

Somebody has to be..

Cluny* That's because the issues that led to the Reformation never existed in Orthodoxy.

Really, the Pope who is infallible is a issue for both Protestant and Orthodoxy.

Cluny* Protestantism was hatched from the egg Rome laid..

Explain Please??
---Ruben on 11/12/15


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Cluny,

Well I have all ready established before Ephesus there was no such usage so now that the dates are no longer a factor.

I would like for you to provide the chapter and verse of where they supposedly used theotokos??

Can you sir??
---john9346 on 11/12/15


And what about these people who used "Theotokos" before Ephesus:

Dionysios of Alexandria in 250
Athanasius of Alexandria in 330
Gregory the Theologian in 370,
John Chrysostom in 400,

You've said nothing about them.

Is that because you cannot?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/15


Cluny,

1. The Sub Tuum Praesideum according to papyrologists is actually about AD 470 or later this would be after Ephesus in AD 431.

According to scholars and papyrologists there are no earliest prayers to mary with an exception of heretical groups.


2. Here is what Augustine really said about Mary not as theotokos "At that time, therefore, when about to engage in divine acts, He repelled, as one unknown, her who was the mother, not of His divinity, but of His [human] infirmity., "



History does note: like the donation of constantine there are many forjuries like the Sub Tuum Praesideum which was not ad 250.

So again, this is another eoc dogma developed over time.
---john9346 on 11/12/15


\\Is the Eastern Orthodox Church the first Protestant Church?\\

Nope.

\\ If not, why did they split with Rome?\\

Rome originally split from us over the issues of Filioque and papal primacy.

More and more things have been added to widen the breach since. Since we aren't going to change anything, nobody has to be infallible.

It's significant that attempts to introduce Protestant doctrines into Orthodox Churches have always fallen flat. That's because the issues that led to the Reformation never existed in Orthodoxy.

Protestantism was hatched from the egg Rome laid. ALL Protestants (especially SDA) are really crypto-papists.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/15


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Is the Eastern Orthodox Church the first Protestant Church? If not, why did they split with Rome?


---jerry6593 on 11/12/15


Shows what you know about Orthodoxy, doesn't it?
---Cluny on 11/10/15

It shows that I know more than you can defend.
Through your brilliant testimony and scriptural witnesses we see the orthodox error.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Jud_1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
---Trav on 11/11/15


\\Name a writing just 1 prior to Ephesus mentioning theotokos?
---john9346 on 11/10/15
\\

A ms from the early third century contains the oldest known prayer to her. "Beneath your intercession we take refuge, O Virgin THEOTOKOS...." Of course, the MS is in Greek.

That's a good two centuries before Ephesus.

Dionysios of Alexandria used the term in about 250, in an epistle to Paul of Samosata.

Athanasius of Alexandria in 330, Gregory the Theologian in 370, John Chrysostom in 400, and Augustine all used the term Theotokos.

Will these do?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/10/15


Cluny states, "No, it didn't. Veneration of the Theotokos is something that was part of Christian piety from the beginning, and certainly before Ephesus."

Name a writing just 1 prior to Ephesus mentioning theotokos?
---john9346 on 11/10/15


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\\Tell me why it is necessary for salvation to have an $110.00 orthodox easter egg? \\

Where did you get the idea it was?

\\Why aren't any prophets done as Icons?\\

Indeed, they frequently are.

Shows what you know about Orthodoxy, doesn't it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/10/15


///Trav: You don't know that you're ignorant. That's called "being ignorant"!
---Leon on 11/9/15

Pseudo-history R2D2. I was ignorant before I wasn't. Your "likelys", is a bias'ed guess not research. [???]
Your bias has been self evident two 1/2 Nordic terms now. See that the Red Haired Pharoah kinda blows your skirts up and "lights" up your bias again. [???]
I expect you to be it's natural and O.K. I am, to my own family. Red Hair...hmmm, my wife may be related to this guy. [???]
Sources begin with Balout, L., C.. Just google Red Haired Pharoah, or pseudo-history. [???] Pro_12:17---Trav on 11/9/15///

FREAKY!!!

---Leon on 11/10/15


Trav: You don't know that you're ignorant. That's called "being ignorant"!
---Leon on 11/9/15

Pseudo-history R2D2. I was ignorant before I wasn't. Your "likelys", is a bias'ed guess not research.
Your bias has been self evident two 1/2 Nordic terms now. See that the Red Haired Pharoah kinda blows your skirts up and "lights" up your bias again.
I expect you to be it's natural and O.K. I am, to my own family. Red Hair...hmmm, my wife may be related to this guy.
Sources begin with Balout, L., C.. Just google Red Haired Pharoah, or pseudo-history.
Pro_12:17
---Trav on 11/9/15


Trav,
They certainly are NOT a fund raiser for the parish, but more a convenience for members.
---Cluny on 11/9/15

A convenience. Like the money changers were convenient. Hey, I get it now.
Looks like they do quite well at list prices seen. Tell me why it is necessary for salvation to have an $110.00 orthodox easter egg?
Why aren't any prophets done as Icons? Are they not popular sellers or what?

Truth doesn't matter to me? Well that not very nice. Actually I just don't expect it from your short post. Put a few scripture witnesses with your opinions...and you might have a meal going there.
Joh_2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
---Trav on 11/9/15


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Trav, I know truth matters not to you, but church book stores make very little money.

They certainly are NOT a fund raiser for the parish, but more a convenience for members.

I've never seen a red-headed Christos in Orthodox iconography, though I've seen St. Mary Magdalene depicted with red hair.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/15


///...I am bias'd to "Truth". [??? ~ VERY TRUE!] Not your, "likelys". [?] I'm not "ignorant" of your subtle deviations from facts...Many scientist [???: source please] ,at four [which four] esteemed labratory's [is that kinda, sorta like laboratories?] confirmed that Ramses* [?] was "Nordic". [You made that up, huh?!] Their statement: It is the central contention of this study, that Ramesses* [?] II was not only White, but that he was a fair-skinned, fair-haired, [???! :D] racially Nordish [Nordish?!!! :D ~ YOU'RE TOO FUNNY!]...---Trav on 11/9/15

* R2 will do.

Trav: You don't know that you're ignorant. That's called "being ignorant"!
---Leon on 11/9/15


\\another dogma [that developed] is the veneration of mary.

This practice had its beginning in AD 431 (council of Ephesus) when the title theotokos was used.\\

No, it didn't. Veneration of the Theotokos is something that was part of Christian piety from the beginning, and certainly before Ephesus.

\\Interestingly enough, the title (theotokos) had to do with the Devinity of Christ... not his mother.\\

To be precise, it had to do with the union of human and divine natures in one and the same Person.

The essence of the heresy of Nestorios is that he REFUSED to use this term, which antedates Ephesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/15


Trav: Don't get it twisted, like Clooney. ..
Blinded by your personal bias, you ignorantly assume red hair means "white skin".
---Leon on 11/7/15

I am bias'd to "Truth". Not your, "likelys". I'm not "ignorant" of your subtle deviations from facts...for your own personal reasons or ego. Many scientist,at four esteemed labratory's confirmed that Ramses was "Nordic".
Their statement: It is the central contention of this study, that Ramesses II was not only White, but that he was a fair-skinned, fair-haired, racially Nordish individual.
Exo_23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
---Trav on 11/9/15


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And you won't find blue-eyed fair skinned representations of the Savior in Orthodox iconography.
---Cluny on 11/7/15

Ha...you can find any P.C. orthodox icon you want at the holy trinty store, an orthodox money maker it appears. Hey there are some pale Red Haired versions for those with just a little nordic bias.
Making merchandise out of all deaths and sacrifices of the saints, Israels Lord, his mother. Prophets must not rate very high didn't see any of them.
Hmmmm.

2Pe_2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
---Trav on 11/9/15


Cluny asks, "Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?"

another dogma is the veneration of mary.

This practice had its beginning in AD 431 (council of Ephesus) when the title theotokos was used.

Interestingly enough, the title (theotokos) had to do with the Devinity of Christ... not his mother.


Join Our
---john9346 on 11/9/15


\\He originally mentioned Nordics,\\

Only in regard to a young man in our church of Iraqi descent.

\\ I guess as pertains to the well-known European, culturally distorted, image of a blue-eyed, white (fair-skinned) Jesus.\\

Wrong again, as in everything you say about me.

And you won't find blue-eyed fair skinned representations of the Savior in Orthodox iconography.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/7/15


Trav: Don't get it twisted, like Clooney. He originally mentioned Nordics, I guess as pertains to the well-known European, culturally distorted, image of a blue-eyed, white (fair-skinned) Jesus.

Blinded by your personal bias, you ignorantly assume red hair means "white skin". Red hair in ancient African people was caused by a mutation in a gene called TYRP1. The protein made by this gene is thought to be involved in bringing together all the enzymes needed to make brown melanin. Ancient redheaded Africans who (before the European invaders liberally spread their seed in Africa) completely lacked brown melanin. They were therefore ALBINO, not "White". Pharaoh R2, likely, was an African albino.
---Leon on 11/7/15


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\\Iconography for the orthodox church has a lot of procedural rules in creating the artwork....
---Scott1 on 11/5/15\\

That's because Orthodox iconography is both a liturgical and proclamatory (if I can coin a word) art that expresses the faith of the Church.

To give an immediately recognizable example, the Icon of the Nativity of Our Lord is to be painted a certain way. The artist doesn't come up with a nice pretty picture according to his own taste.

In the same way, the Priest or Deacon doesn't just tell a pretty story story about Jesus's birthday, but reads the appointed Gospel passages.

Iconography is properly a form of proclaiming the Gospel message.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/15


Cluny confuses the ethnically inbreed mid-eastern people of today from those living in Jesus's day. Back then the "Nordics"...hadn't yet spread their seed throughout the mid-east.
---Leon on 11/5/15

Ya know, googling is great. Nordic's? We can all go in one instant to the Redheaded Pharaoh Ramesses II of the 19th Dynasty. Or see the caucasion images of Israel in the Behistun stone in Iraq. We've got history...it's not always pretty but, then whose is.
You can have your own fantasy's leon, but you can't hide Truth.
Psa_98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
As is evident daily...for those who look.
---Trav on 11/6/15


Leon, am I supposed to believe you worked in the Middle East during our Lord's earthly sojourn?

That's what your words mean. Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/15


///\\Trav: Was Jesus "White"? I don't believe He was Black nor White, but God chose to be BROWN...\\

You don't know many middle easterners, do you, Leon? I go to a church full of them... very few are brown. I know a young Christian whose parents came from Iraq. He has...skin as fair as any Nordic...---Cluny on 11/4/15///


Once more, a typically myopic (short-sighted) response to be expected from Cluny. I lived & worked in the mid-East for a few years. I'm well acquainted with mid-Easterner people.

Cluny confuses the ethnically inbreed mid-eastern people of today from those living in Jesus's day. Back then the "Nordics"...hadn't yet spread their seed throughout the mid-east.
---Leon on 11/5/15


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Trav said, "Fittingly you picked these verses. Falling under the rc authority, doctrines and secondly Christ. Your rc guide is blind...to scripture contrary to them. The light they worship like yourself is their-selves."

Trav, I try to be nice, and most of the time, I succeed. However, you are calling my faith in our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ to doubt. If you wish, you may stand before God when I am judged, and speak to your heart's content about my (so called) evil. If God listens to you, He will cast me into hell, fair enough? Now leave me alone! Stop throwing stones!

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/5/15


Iconography for the orthodox church has a lot of procedural rules in creating the artwork. I cannot just go paint a picture and say it is iconography.
---Scott1 on 11/5/15


...it is apparent. Isa_8:20 ..."
Matt 15:14 Leave them, they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.

John 8:12 "I am the light ...
---Monk_Brendan on 11/4/15

Exactly. Fittingly you picked these verses. Falling under the rc authority, doctrines and secondly Christ. Your rc guide is blind...to scripture contrary to them. The light they worship like yourself is their-selves. Your posts are testament. Example: You know and study, defend by posts your churches history but, cannot even communicate on the New Covenant or anything on the specifics of the assembled writings it is supposedly built on.
Batteries are dead on your churches flashlight. Your priest has none to offer.
---Trav on 11/5/15


Cluny your statements:

1. "First off, Elvira dn Hieria were local councils, and therefore not of universal authority."

To stay on topic with your question both councils condemned iconography which means there was not an unanimous consistent agreement of this practice in the church.

2. "Next, there are examples of Christian art and iconography from the earliest times, such as in the catacombs of Rome."

And your point sir? it is obvious I am sure these councils wouldn't be meeting to address a nonissue.

3. Origen even records opposition to iconography.
---john9346 on 11/5/15


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\\Well yes iconography.

the synod of Elvira condemned, the council of hieria condemned, but the second council of Nicaea established to be believed as dogma."

Wrong.

First off, Elvira dn Hieria were local councils, and therefore not of universal authority.

Next, there are examples of Christian art and iconography from the earliest times, such as in the catacombs of Rome.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/5/15


Cluny asks, "Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?


Well yes iconography.

the synod of Elvira condemned, the council of hieria condemned, but the second council of Nicaea established to be believed as dogma.
---john9346 on 11/5/15


Trav said, "...Question you should ask yourself is why are you attracted too it. Although scripturally speaking it is apparent. Isa_8:20 ..."

Matt 15:14 Leave them, they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.

John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." I follow Him

As for why, I am attracted to the Light, the Truth, and His Way of Love. This is the straightest, narrowest path I have ever walked, but it is worth it. If you don't feel that way about your church, then I feel sorry for you, and any that follow your way.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/4/15


'm waiting for you to tell me which Eastern Orthodox doctrines developed.
So far, you have not.
---Cluny on 11/4/15

More than happy to post for others. You are educated now where you guys veer, and appear to enjoy the division between you and others.
A significant doctrinal deviation of your false church is in venerating saints and Icons. No scripture witnesses for worshiping metal, wood or glass icons. Smells like Ancient superstitions and errors ancient Israel will not repeat again. So you are not lost sheep Israel for by marks...laws in your heart, would convict you otherwise.
Heb_8:10 ... with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: ...
---Trav on 11/4/15


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\\Point is your system was corrupt from the beginning and still is.\\

I'm waiting for you to tell me which Eastern Orthodox doctrines developed.

So far, you have not.

Please do so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/15


\\Trav: Was Jesus "White"? I don't believe He was Black nor White, but God chose to be BROWN -- Middle Eastern. \\

You don't know many middle easterners, do you, Leon?

I go to a church full of them. Our priest and his wife are from Egypt. Believe me, very few are brown.

I know a young Christian whose parents came from Iraq. He has dark hair and skin as fair as any Nordic.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/15


That is only 132. What happened to the others?
---Monk_Brendan on 11/3/15

Looks they were the sultans boys. Regardless...they bought their positions...like the edomite jews did during Herods reign.
Point is your system was corrupt from the beginning and still is. Question you should ask yourself is why are you attracted too it. Although scripturally speaking it is apparent. Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Get out while ya can)
---Trav on 11/4/15


///...Just as "twisted"?? Just as "bad"? Sounds like you've got a problem with a white Jesus. [?] I don't. [Okaaaay!]
His heritage & message historically didn't come out of China, Japan or Africa. Rather the reverse. [???] Matter of fact you wouldn't even know of him if [?] not for the sheep that still print freely, all the literature, send missionary's etc...---Trav on 11/3/15///

Trav: Was Jesus "White"? I don't believe He was Black nor White, but God chose to be BROWN -- Middle Eastern.

Rather than what reverse? What are you talking about?

Please explain your attempt to tie your comments to Ezekiel 37:28.
---Leon on 11/3/15


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Trav said, "The sword of Islam gave military protection to the center of the Eastern Orthodox world, but at a high price. The Muslim sultan sold the office of patriarch to the highest bidder ... From 1453 to 1923, the Turkish sultans deposed 105 out of the 159 patriarchs. Six were murdered, and only 21 died of natural causes while in office."

That is only 132. What happened to the others?

Notice the way the muslims are treating Christians now. Killing is a way of life. Also, Islam was spread at the edge of a sword.

If the (Islamic) Turkish sultans were getting rid of the patriarchs, it was because hardly any would teach what the Sultan wanted.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 11/3/15


However, just as twisted (bad) is some people who portray Jesus as being Black.
---Leon on 11/3/15

Just as "twisted"?? Just as "bad"?
Sounds like you've got a problem with a white Jesus.
I don't.
His heritage and message historically didn't come out of China, Japan or Africa. Rather the reverse.
Matter of fact you wouldn't even know of him if not for the sheep that still print freely, all the literature, send missionary's etc, etc, etc.
Eze_37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 11/3/15


///...You mean like white Anglo-Saxon long hair blue eyed Jesus. Yeah I agree...
The reason I said it was so that you did not think I was picking or challenging icon.
---Scott1 on 11/2/15///

Yes exactly, the Scandinavian Jesus is the prime example. Then there's an untold number of paintings, statues, tapestries, books, etc., portraying other Bible characters as White. However, just as twisted (bad) is some people who portray Jesus as being Black.

The big problem with icons, as I see it, is religious people have a bent to focus on the icon (graven image) more than God. That's idolatry of which God hates.
---Leon on 11/3/15


\\You mean like white Anglo-Saxon long hair blue eyed Jesus\\

You won't see this in traditional Orthodox iconography.

Trav, the Turkokratia affected the development of Orthodox doctrine just how? You did NOT give an example of this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/3/15


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Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?
---Cluny on 11/1/15

As I have offered before, I believe Athanasius developed in 373 the dogma of "the Presence" in the Eucharist, where after prayers, the bread and the wine on the altar have The Word brought into them. Without the prayers, the elements remain as they are.

This "Presence" was never formulated in such a specific way before Athanasius. The Patristic Fathers before Athanasius describe the elements as the Body and Blood of Jesus, but never mention this infusing of Jesus into the elements.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/15


Can anyone give a concrete example of an Eastern Orthodox doctrine that developed?
---Cluny on 11/1/15

You present a good study on how you ortho/catho's can be so duped by an ancient system of error. Below a Bishop explains how the "orthos" bought the offices they held. Amazingly like Herods period.
(1054 on) The sword of Islam gave military protection to the center of the Eastern Orthodox world, but at a high price. The Muslim sultan sold the office of patriarch to the highest bidder and changed the occupants often to keep the money rolling in. From 1453 to 1923, the Turkish sultans deposed 105 out of the 159 patriarchs. Six were murdered, and only 21 died of natural causes while in office.
---Trav on 11/2/15


//Would you agree conjured up images can be very misleading especially when they portray the slanted views of a particular group?//

You mean like white Anglo-Saxon long hair blue eyed Jesus. Yeah I agree.
The reason I said it was so that you did not think I was picking or challenging icon.
---Scott1 on 11/2/15


While the Slavic-Byzantine iconographic STYLE developed, there is Christian art from the earliest centuries of the Church in the Catacombs of Rome and elsewhere.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/15


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///Iconography. I went the to the Bethlehem orthodox church last year. It felt very overwhelming because of all the pictures. [There's] nothing wrong with iconography. [It] is what it is.---Scott1 on 11/2/15///

Scott: In your opinion, there's nothing wrong with iconography? Would you agree conjured up images can be very misleading especially when they portray the slanted views of a particular group?

World religion can indeed be very overpowering (controlling) with its many facets of doctrinal dead works. Christianity, on the other hand, frees (liberates) seeking souls based upon God's Bible truth.
---Leon on 11/2/15


I can't.

But I can say that Jesus is the first ICON of God.
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/2/15


Iconography. I went the to the Bethlehem orthodox church last year. It felt very overwhelming because of all the pictures. There is nothing wrong with iconography it is what it is.
---Scott1 on 11/2/15


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