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Succession Back To Peter

Can anyone show either Biblical or extra-biblical evidence that any church outside of Catholic or Orthodox can trace their line of succession back to Peter, unbroken?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

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\\ Cluny states, "In the Apostolic Constitution MUNIFENTCISSIMUS DEUS by Pius XII he makes explicit mention of the Virgin's earthly death."

Actually, he states, "Completed her Earthly Life." which is still debated in the RC some say she died some say she didn't die..\\

The fact of the Virgin's physical death is mentioned in the body of the Apostolic Constitution.

There is, however, an urban legend of an anonymous "Marian priest" of an unspecified "Marian order" who got to Pius XII in the middle of the night and got him to use the euphemism "completed her earthly life."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/15


Thus, both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that the Virgins body is assumed into Heaven, but Orthodox Christians believe that the process included her death.

For Roman Catholics ST. Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church Emmaus PA

posted in 3 parts
---john9346 on 12/17/15


john9346: "she is the only human being to be assumed directly to heaven without passing through death."

What about Enoch and Elijah?


---jerry6593 on 12/18/15


Excellent points Katyr thank you.

Thank you john for the information.

Since I do not believe in the original sin doctrine it is more interesting on the Orthodox position on that we inherit mortality and the bent to sin. But are not guilty of sin by being born.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/18/15


If any did not then the chain is broken.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/17/15

Great verses. ALSO Note there is nothing about any succession back to Peter as a qualification. Also note there is nothing in scripture saying Peter was demoted from an Apostle to a Bishop. Peter was an apostle TO THE JEWS, and never went to Rome. Paul went to Rome. They did not tread on each other's territory. Rome was GENTILE, and Paul was an Apostle to the GENTILES.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/15




Cluny states, "All Orthodox agree with the Assumption of the Virgin."



What are the differences in belief regarding the Assumption of Mary?

Roman Catholics believe that Mary, because she was born without the stain of Original Sin (see the previous question on the Immaculate Conception), did not have to die, as a consequence, she is the only human being to be assumed directly to heaven without passing through death.
---john9346 on 12/17/15


On the other hand, Orthodox Christians believe that Mary inherited Adams mortality like all other human beings, and therefore died like the rest of us. However, her Son (the new Adam) immediately raised her from the dead as one of the first fruits of his Redemption, and she was then assumed into heaven. This is why the icon of the Virgin Marys death (her Dormition) shows her lying on her death bed, with her Son behind her holding a baby in swaddling clothes. The baby represents His mothers soul whom he has raised to her life with Him in heaven. Each August 15, the Orthodox celebrate Marys Dormition (falling asleep) rather than her Assumption.
---john9346 on 12/17/15


Cluny states, "In the Apostolic Constitution MUNIFENTCISSIMUS DEUS by Pius XII he makes explicit mention of the Virgin's earthly death."

Actually, he states, "Completed her Earthly Life." which is still debated in the RC some say she died some say she didn't die..

"the death of Mary is not certain, either historically or from revelation."

Father Freithoff, O.P.,

"the death of the Most Holy Virgin may be considered as historically proved and explicitly revealed: as such (explicitly revealed) it may be the subject of a dogmatic definition:"

Father J. F. Bonnefoy, O.F.M.,
---john9346 on 12/17/15


Cluny said, "Sorry, but I don't have a copy of his book TOC to hand. Since you do, you can look it up."

So, is this the way you do thing sir, you cite something and the readers/viewers who want to know what he really said you give know direction to them and present a very slapdash disposition??
---john on 12/17/15


But a church to be true must be following the Bible. For it to be the true church every leader had to fit these qualifications.

1Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach,
Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God, not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre,

If any did not then the chain is broken.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/17/15




Luke said, ""Monk, no one church can trace their roots to only Peter. In fact many churches were planted by Paul and the other Apostles."

True. As a matter of fact, I know a man whose brother was the pastor of the Greek Orthodox Church of Thessaloniki, the very same church that Paul founded.

However, there is enough historical data to show that Peter was first bishop of Antioch, and then went to Rome, where he led the Church there for a time before he was martyred.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/17/15


\\In the doctrine of the Dormition, Mary died, but in the assumption, Mary did not die.\\

This is not true.

In the Apostolic Constitution MUNIFENTCISSIMUS DEUS by Pius XII in which he dogmatized the Assumption (something unnecessary from the Orthodox view point), he makes explicit mention of the Virgin's earthly death.

Furthermore, the liturgical texts used by Byzantine Catholics are EXACTLY the same as those used by the Orthodox. And these refer to her bodily death.

BTW, "Mr. Ware" has been Metropolitan Kallistos for some years now. Sorry, but I don't have a copy of his book TOC to hand. Since you do, you can look it up.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/15


Thank you for that information Luke. Those who choose to go back and study history will also find that there was no violence ever heard of with those who professed to be Christians until Constantine. Re Constantine's Sword, and his vision, used with Scripture "I bring not peace but a sword" Constantine applied to himself literally , where that verse applies to Christ ALONE........having crusades after crusades, attacks on Jews immediately following Easter, through the invention of Passion Plays to stir up hatred and so on. AND murdering Christians who refused to bow to the RCC. This is NOT what following Jesus Christ is about. AND THIS is NOT the CHURCH described in scripture OR any instructions given us by Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/15


"Monk, no one church can trace their roots to only Peter. In fact many churches were planted by Paul and the other Apostles. The Catholic (universal) church was started by Constantine. It included many different churches which joined together, the reason it was later called Catholic, which means Universal. Later in time it became the Roman Catholic Church because when Constantine joined the churches together, a marriage between the Roman Empire of which Constantine was the Emperor of, and the Christian churches. He dethroned Jesus as Head of the Church and he became the first head of the Catholic universal church. You could say he was the first pope.
---Luke on 12/16/15


Cluny states, "All Orthodox agree with the Assumption of the Virgin. As Timothy Ware said in the same book you quoted, it's held with an "unruffled unanimity.""


Mr. Cluny, page and number of Mr. Ware saying what you say he said??

In the doctrine of the Dormition, Mary died, but in the assumption, Mary did not die.

You see, they are not the same thing this is why some EasternOrthodox reject.

My point of bringing this up is rcc and EOC are not in unity even among themselves over suppose 2000 year old dogmas.

And all we needed was a pope and a patriarch??

Such disunity
---john9346 on 12/16/15


\\ The Eastern Orthodox do not all agree with the Assumption of Mary whether among themselves or Rome.\\

All Orthodox agree with the Assumption of the Virgin. As Timothy Ware said in the same book you quoted, it's held with an "unruffled unanimity."

I ought to know. I'm Orthodox and you are not, as far as I know.

Furthermore, as I said, her bodily Assumption is taught in the liturgical texts of the festal period, especially on 17 August.

From ORTHODOXWIKI: The Feast of the Dormition, ... proclaims that Mary has been "assumed" by God into the heavenly kingdom of Christ in the fullness of her spiritual and bodily existence.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/16/15


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Samuel, great post. All the apostles established churches, including Paul, even Barnabas and John Mark, and no where in scripture did any report to Peter.

The Church is built upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And Jesus Himself said, if two or three are gathered in His name.......

The BODY of Christ has many members, and no one member is above another. Worshiping Peter is no different than worshiping Mary. Taking one verse OUT OF CONTEXT, without any other scripture to back it up ( needs two or three witnesses) is a big mistake. Scripture mentions James as heading the council.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/15


Thank you Kathyr for your excellent point. To be a true church leader a person has to be a follower of Jesus. Not just hold an office.

The Bible tells what a Bishop is to be. Many of the RCC do not qualify.

1Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach,

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God, not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre,
---Samuelbb7 on 12/15/15


Mr. Cluny,

Both are considered initiatives whether Zoghby or the Antioch Orthodox.

The Eastern Orthodox do not all agree with the Assumption of Mary whether among themselves or Rome.

Could you please post the text you reference?
---john9346 on 12/15/15


"The Orthodox Church calls Mary all-holy, immaculate, free from actual sin. The Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter of the Immaculate Conception. In the past, individual Orthodox theologians have made statements that, if not definitively affirming the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception, at any rate closely approach it. But since 1854, the great majority of Orthodox reject it as necessary, as implying a false understanding of original sin,"

"However, if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe it, he could not be termed a heretic for doing so."

The Orthodox Church, Timothy Ware Pg 259-260
---john on 12/15/15


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FWIW, the Zoghby initiative was rejected by both Rome and the Orthodox. It's now a dead issue.

The head of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger, as he was a the time, really gave it a trouncing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/15


Certain people do claim to have an unbroken line back to Peter. But their saying so does not prove it is so. Also, I understand that the true succession has Bible qualified leaders > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. "Even" the "First Epistle of Clement" talks about how only approved ones were in the succession, not ones disobedient and tyrannical. So, it is clear that certain ones who claim their succession back to Peter have not met the standards of whoever really wrote the "First Epistle of Clement" which does not even name any Clement!

There have always been Jesus Christ's gentle and humble leaders who fed us with personal example, not necessarily publicized or historically recorded, I understand through Isaiah 55:11.
---Bill on 12/15/15


Monk, if we were in the OT where succession, say Kings coming from the line of Judah, or priests from the line of the Levites was important, then your question may have validity, BUT the Church needs no such claims to legitimize itself. The HEAD of the Church is Christ, and all else are members of His BODY. Wisdom and knowledge flow from the HEAD, CHRIST, to,the body. Jesus is made unto US Wisdom and Knowledge and truth and LIFE ITSELF. Our relationship with God through Jesus Christ is never broken....unless one chooses to break that line by worshiping the creature more than the Creator.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/15


john9836, what you are talking about is called the ZOGHBY initiative, not the Melkite initiative.

All Churches of the Byzantine tradition--Orthodox or in communion with Rome--believe in the Assumption of the Virgin.

While the Byzantine name is properly "Dormition," that does not mean we do not believe in her Assumption. There are references to it in the post festal texts, starting on 17 August.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/15


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Brendan,

Thanks for asking my friend.

Both initiatives is what I am referencing.


Also, Dr. Joel I. Barstad, does a good work addressing both of these initiatives in an article titled, "Are the Ratzinger Proposal and Zoghby Initiative Dead?"

I also want you to know sir I am not meaning for you to take this as "Throwing rocks." at you., but an opportunity to seek the truth.

Brendan, I want to know the truth and I believe as a monk you can understand this?
---john9346 on 12/14/15


John 9346 said, "Sir, ...Second in church tradition that held to Mary's Assumption.

You might want to read the Melkite Initiative when you get a chance."


Which Initiative are you asking me to read? Is it the
Melkite Initiative with the Antiochian Orthodox Church? Does it include the following statement:

1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.


2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation."

Or is it some other initiative, Vatican I, Vatican II?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/14/15


John 9346 said, "Remember, the Melkite Initiative stands in opposition of these dogmas."

Are you talking about the Zoghby Initiative?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/14/15


Brendan states, "
The Assumption of Mary has been a feast of the Church since Apostolic times."

Sir, there are no unanimous consistent Agreement in "Sacred Scripture." Second in church tradition that held to Mary's Assumption.

Brendan states, "
The Melkites disagreed with Vatican I and the decrees on the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility because of how they were defined, not on their factuality."

You might want to read the Melkite Initiative when you get a chance.
---john9346 on 12/14/15


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John 9346 said, "Sir, this is incorrect, Melkites do not agree with the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, and Papal Infallibility."

How would you know? You are not Melkite--or any other sort of Catholic.

The Assumption of Mary has been a feast of the Church since Apostolic times.

The Melkites disagreed with Vatican I and the decrees on the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility because of how they were defined, not on their factuality.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/13/15


Brendan said, "No, the method is sloppy and highly inaccurate. Show me names and publications of RC apologists that have said that this method is good, please."

Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Tim Staples, etc.


"For example, the Female Priests..."
Brendan ask, "Your wrong on that. Please show your research,"

Yes, Richard P. McBrien, catholic scholar teaches that the american catholic church and others like it are valid to be called "Catholic."
---john9346 on 12/13/15


Brendan said, "
Papal Infallibility has been used only 3 times in the 2000 years since the Church began. Those three times were strictly Western (Roman) doctrines that defined something that Eastern Christians already knew.

Sir, this is incorrect, Melkites do not agree with the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, and Papal Infallibility.

All these dogmas defined by "Papal Infallibility."

Remember, the Melkite Initiative stands in opposition of these dogmas.
---john9346 on 12/13/15


"In this regard, our Church questions the unity of faith which the Melkite Catholics think has become possible. Our Church believes that the discussion of this unity with Rome is still in its primitive stage. The first step toward unity on the doctrinal level, is not to consider as ecumenical, the Western local councils which the Church of Rome, convened, separately, including the First Vatican Council.

the Holy Synod of the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarchate October 1996
---john on 12/13/15


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John 9346 said, "First, lets start with "Papal Infallibility." in 1870 "

Papal Infallibility has been used only 3 times in the 2000 years since the Church began. Those three times were strictly Western (Roman) doctrines that defined something that Eastern Christians already knew.

Can we please limit our arguments on Papal Infallibility? The subject has been beaten to death. Nobody on either side is willing to back down, and by now we are just throwing rocks at each other.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/12/15


john:

You wrote: First, lets start with "Papal Infallibility." in 1870 "

I'm not so sure this is a "vital" dogma, because I don't believe the RCC says that one's salvation rests on believing this. (I was certainly never taught this when I was young).

But you said dogmaS, plural, so surely there must be others that come to mind?
---StrongAxe on 12/12/15


\\Brendan asked, "Which "Vital Dogmas" in particular are you talking about?"

First, lets start with "Papal Infallibility." in 1870 "
---john on 12/11/15\\

Melkites were forced to accept it. Gregory Yussuf, the Melkite patriarch, was present.

But when forced to sign the decree, they all added, "Without prejudices to the rights and privileges of the Eastern Patriarchs."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/12/15


John 9346 said, "The rc apologists misrepresent the Encyclopedia's Method when not convenient for them and when convenient use it."

No, the method is sloppy and highly inaccurate. Show me names and publications of RC apologists that have said that this method is good, please.

"For example, the american catholic church does not agree with Rome over Female Priests..."

Your wrong on that. Please show your research, and avoid people with an agenda. I already know about the so-called womenpriests, and they have an agenda. They are all excommunicate.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/12/15


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Thanks Trey,

I am trying hard.

//Nicole Lacey, I really believe what you stated is the truth! In all honesty, we should all quit attacking each others religious beliefs. ---trey on 12/11/15
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/11/15


Brendan,

The method is not flawed RC apologists are the ones who deceive by making the number hire to gain converts.

The rc apologists misrepresent the Encyclopedia's Method when not convenient for them and when convenient use it.

For example, the american catholic church does not agree with Rome over Female Priests and the Oriental Orthodox does not agree with Eastern Orthodox concerning "Monophysitism."
---john9346 on 12/11/15


Brendan asked, "Which "Vital Dogmas" in particular are you talking about?"

First, lets start with "Papal Infallibility." in 1870 "
---john on 12/11/15


"And if Peter was not in Rome, as some here proclaim, then it is in direct conflict with Matt 16:18, and the gates of hell DID prevail against His Church -Monk_Brendan on 12/10/15"

Monk, at first I couldn't see the correlation but then I realized that you believe that Peter is the rock spoken of by Christ. I do not agree with your interpretation, but that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

Nicole Lacey, I really believe what you stated is the truth! In all honesty, we should all quit attacking each others religious beliefs. It would be wonderful if everyone would simply state their beliefs backed up by scripture and place our efforts on how wonderful God is and on loving each other in a Christian manner!!!
---trey on 12/11/15


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John 9346 said, "As a "Melkite.", you do not agree with "Rome." on Vital Dogmas."

Which "Vital Dogmas" in particular are you talking about?

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/11/15


John 9346 said, "Actually, there are only 8973 protestants not 33000 prediction 9490 by 2025 see P. 16."

My point, John, is that the study is flawed by its method. If I want to count the Methodists in Illinois, I do not look in the phone book and count the Methodist Churches, then use that number as the number of Methodists. Nor do I use the 102 counties as separate entities, and say that there are 102 Methodist Churches in Illinois.

Both of these methods would be flawed. There may be two or three different flavors of Methodists in the state, but they are all Methodists.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/11/15


john9346:

You wrote to Monk_Brendan: As a "Melkite.", you do not agree with "Rome." on Vital Dogmas.

Could you elaborate on just which "vital dogmas" Melkites disagree with Rome on?
---StrongAxe on 12/11/15


Brendan,

Actually, there are only 8973 protestants not 33000 prediction 9490 by 2025 see P. 16.

That is why I said don't ask others to do what you yourselves "MCC/EOC." are unable to do.

As a "Melkite.", you do not agree with "Rome." on Vital Dogmas.
---john9346 on 12/10/15


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Using Google, please search "list of popes in Vatican." While not up to date (It doesn't include Benedict XVI or Francis), it will give you a list of popes from Peter to John Paul II.

And if Peter was not in Rome, as some here proclaim, then it is in direct conflict with Matt 16:18, and the gates of hell DID prevail against His Church

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/10/15


\\ Since the Jews had been expelled from Rome at least twice in earlier years, this would not have been Peter's field of ministry. \\

Not at the time of the Apostles. In fact, Rome had one of the oldest Jewish communities in the diaspora.

In fact, it was Jews who first used the catacombs to bury their dead.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/10/15


John 9346 said, "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world
Second Edition, David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson Oxford University Press, 2001.
Page 16"


And the same book says that there are 33,000 denominations of Christians, with the majority--a large percentage--being Protestant.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/10/15


Since the Jews had been expelled from Rome at least twice in earlier years, this would not have been Peter's field of ministry. ---trey on 12/9/15

Pope Francis has proclaimed this year (starting Dec 8th until Nov of next year) the year of Mercy.

One point of many points of me trying to be Christ like (Mercy) is to tone down my Smart mouth esp. here in CN.

I am sure all on CN will remind me if I am not as you all should.

All that to remind you that Peter's field is in fishing, not in ministry.

God's Glory is shown best in the weakest and those without education.

God is CAN do anything including giving Peter the Graces to feed, tend and lead His Flock.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/10/15


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Monk, as mentioned earlier by michael e, Peter was the Apostle to the circumcision (Jews) Galatians 2:8. Since the Jews had been expelled from Rome at least twice in earlier years, this would not have been Peter's field of ministry. There is also evidence that Peter is actually buried in Jerusalem not Rome.

Now, let me ask you this, is it really important where Peter is buried or if Peter was the first Pope in Rome? In my opinion "No!" What is really important is how we treat others. What is really important is how we serve God. Where Peter is buried or if he went to Rome is in reality insignificant. What is significant is our worship of Christ and what he's done for us!!!

Lord bless you.
---trey on 12/9/15


Trey said, "First of all, in all actuality it is improbable that Peter ever went to Rome."

Really? Then how come all sorts of books, secular and religious, speak about Peter's trip to Rome, and how he died crucified upside down at his request? All the early Church fathers agree on this point.

Ignatius, in his Letter to the Romans about AD 110 claimed that Peter was bishop of Rome. Irenaeus of Lyon, about AD 180, agrees that Peter served in Rome.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/9/15


There are 242 rcc denomination prediction 245 by 2025 and 781 orthodox denominations prediction 887 by 2025


See source below:


World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world
Second Edition, David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson Oxford University Press, 2001.
Page 16
---john9346 on 12/9/15


// There is no mention of him visiting Rome in the scriptures//
Making it impossible to prove biblically that Peter was in Rome, which was predominately Gentile.
Paul(the apostle to the Gentiles) was definitely in Rome, but Roman Catholics think they are Israel and that their authority comes from Peter(apostle to the nation of Israel) with priests, confessionals, and absolution.
So Paul wouldn't fit that mold.
---michael_e on 12/9/15


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But there is not a list of popes from Peter to Francis written in stone.--micha9344

Have you been to the Vatican?

I seen it with my own eyes.
Of course when I went in 2007, Pope Francis name wasn't there because he wasn't Pope yet.

How can you say something isn't there if you were not there to say either way?

That's like me saying you don't have a stove in your home.

Have I been inside your home to make this statement? No.

So if you tell me you have a stove, I can't disagree with you until I been inside your home.

The Vatican is OPENED and free to everyone.

Maybe someone has taken pictures and placed the on the web. Who knows? Google it and you might see it without going to the Vatican.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/9/15


Both can give a list back to Peter. They are not the same list after 1054. So their lists differ.

Also the RCC had at various times more than one pope. Latter on a decision was made as to which was the true one and which were the anti-popes. But how many people are suffering an extra thousand years in Purgatory for not picking the correct one?

It does not matter anyway. What matters is does the doctrine you teach match what the Bible teaches. If you teach against what the Bible teaches then you are false.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/9/15


\\ His ministry was in Jerusalem.\\

Is that why he went to Joppa and Antioch?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/15


John 9346 said, "Remember, There are 242 Roman Catholic Denominations."

No, there are 242 national Churches that are Roman Catholic! There is just one denomination in the whole lot, and that is Roman Catholic. And despite what anyone says, it is not the church of hell.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/9/15


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But there is not a list of popes from Peter to Francis written in stone.
---micha9344 on 12/8/15


First of all, in all actuality it is improbable that Peter ever went to Rome. There is no mention of him visiting Rome in the scriptures. His ministry was in Jerusalem.
Second of all, the church at Rome by 260 AD had become apostate by leaving the teachings of scripture to model the church after the Jewish law service.
Last of all, if there is one denomination that can trace their roots back to the Apostles it would be the Baptist. The Baptist do not trace their roots back to the Apostles through their name but through doctrine and practice.
---trey on 12/9/15


It does not show all of the popes and is not accurate as far as a "burial inventory" is concerned.
A papal list is contained in books at the Vatican.---micha9344 on 12/8/15

No not in books, but in the inside of the Wall (stone) in the Vatican.

Whether you agree with the list or not the question is asking "if THERE IS A LIST OF NAMES FROM PETER TO FRANCIS."

Which is YES.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/8/15


/with first-hand data.\
correction
without first-hand data.
---micha9344 on 12/8/15


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/Not ONLY can we and do we trace Pope Francis from Peter, we have their names WRITTEN in stone.\-Nicole_Lacey on 12/6/15
The names written in stone are not a "successor" list, but a list of popes that were buried on Vatican grounds.
It does not show all of the popes and is not accurate as far as a "burial inventory" is concerned.
A papal list is contained in books at the Vatican.
Both the books and the tablet were made centuries afterward, so contain retrofit data, that is, information wasn't placed there with first-hand knowledge.
---micha9344 on 12/8/15


Strongaxe,

Not sure of your motive, but we all should want everybody to know the truth "That which is right."

"Love thy neighbor as thy self."

The best way to do so is by referencing the seekers to the authorities on that information.


This is why I commend Brendan for asking replyers to cite their sources.

People should believe what they read in a book especially if the book is written by that Representative Source.

I guess if we reason out to logical conclusion your point I should ask a Muslem what Reform Baptist believe and a Daoist what a Primitive Baptist believe about wine.
---john9346 on 12/8/15


incidentally cemeteries are full of names written in stone ---michael_e on 12/7/15

So? They don't say I am the son of such and such and he is the son of such and such.

Nor all the names of the President of the Unites States of America?

Some President's faces are in stone as well.

The question was any there a list or proof of names of the Pope from Francis to Peter asked by John.

I said yes in the Vatican written in stone.

Those names written in cemeteries are of one name with usually DOB and DOD.

No linkage to another person except maybe a spouse.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/7/15


john9346:

You said: My point is for those who are reading this blog who seek the truth should refer to an authorities on Subject Matter and not google.

And how does one find those authorities? A good place to start is a library - which as I pointed out, is not in and of itself an authority, but merely a convenient way to index books (which may or may not be correct in and of themselves).

Some people believe everything that comes up on google.

And some people believe everything they read in books. In both cases one must rely on discernment and further research, rather than just "I saw it on the web" or "I read it in a book".
---StrongAxe on 12/8/15


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//Not ONLY can we and do we trace Pope Francis from Peter, we have their names WRITTEN in stone.//
BCV please, incidentally cemeteries are full of names written in stone
---michael_e on 12/7/15


Nicole said, "In other words you don't want to be proven wrong."

In other words, I will accurately represent the RCC and the EOC.

What better to believe, cite, and refer to then what the RCC and EOC (Eastern Orthodox) say about themselves.

I would like to see you dialog honestly,instead, of say a little here and there.

On another blog you didn't even know what the Council of Trent said about the bible,yet, you said you knew just giving an example of why Representative Sources are vital.

I'll leave it to the seekers of truth of this blog to decide who wants to be right.

BTW, isn't seeking the truth about being right?
---john9346 on 12/7/15


Strongaxe,

My point is for those who are reading this blog who seek the truth should refer to an authorities on Subject Matter and not google. Some people believe everything that comes up on google.

Cluny states, "O, we can do this for ourselves, and have repeatedly."

Please show an unanimous Agreement from the church fathers just give me 1?
---john9346 on 12/7/15


Monk, no one church can trace their roots to only Peter. In fact many churches were planted by Paul and the other Apostles. The Catholic (universal) church was started by Constantine. It included many different churches which joined together, the reason it was later called Catholic, which means Universal. Later in time it became the Roman Catholic Church because when Constantine joined the churches together, a marriage between the Roman Empire of which Constantine was the Emperor of and the Christian churchs. He dethroned Jesus as Head of the Church and he became the first head of the
Roman Catholic universal church.
---Luke on 12/7/15


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Jerry said, "
What for? Peter was not a pope. In fact, the Bible records that it was James who was in charge at the famous Jerusalem Council. Peter would have been appalled at the notion of his being a religious dictator."


James was the first bishop of Jerusalem, and was entitled to lead that Apostolic Council. At the time, St. Peter was the bishop of Antioch.

"Do Catholics realize that the statue of Peter in the Vatican whose toes have been worn away by centuries of kissing is actually the statue of Jupiter taken from the Coliseum."

Not true. The bronze statue of St. Peter is believed to be a 13th Century work by Arnolfo di Cambio

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 12/7/15


there are those who read these blogs who are seeking the truth.---john9346

In other words you don't want to be proven wrong.

Never use google?
Why do you trust google for some things but not others?

Sorry, but you tried that trick before and it didn't fly. There is only one RCC.

Even those who disagrees with the RCC admits there is only one.

As I said. If you went to the Vatican you will see all the names of the Popes from Peter to Francis written in stone.

Plus you didn't answer what is EOC?

Don't get upset when you make a statement and someone is able to tell you that you are wrong and how you are wrong.

That's like picking up your ball and going home because someone else plays better.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/6/15


john9346:

You wrote: when engaged in a serious substantive dialog google is very unreliable...

Google is not an authority, just a search tool that provides easy access to other sources, and those sources can be checked individually. This just like like a library. Just becuse a book is in a library doesn't mean it's true, but the library DOES make it easier to find multiple books that can then be examined.

Wikipedia is a good source, because anyone can edit it (so if errors are posted, others who know better can correct them). It also has a firm policy that it CANNOT be a primary source of information - the information it publishes MUST come from other sources, which it cites (and which you can then verify yourself).
---StrongAxe on 12/6/15


When did Jesus say there was to be one successor of His Church at all times? The only one that was actually appointed by Jesus was Peter. The other Popes on your list were chosen by men. Jesus told his disciples to go forth making disciples of all nations. Undoubtedly, Peter and the other disciples preached the gospel to all sorts of people, who in turn shared the gospel with other people, and so on, like branches on a tree. Jesus never limited the succession of His Church to a straight line. And He never endorsed the formation of a singular official church government with a singular Pope. The Popes on your list are merely the successors of an organization that they themselves formed, not Christ's Church.
---Jed on 12/6/15


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What for? Peter was not a pope. In fact, the Bible records that it was James who was in charge at the famous Jerusalem Council. Peter would have been appalled at the notion of his being a religious dictator.

Do Catholics realize that the statue of Peter in the Vatican whose toes have been worn away by centuries of kissing is actually the statue of Jupiter taken from the Coliseum.


---jerry6593 on 12/7/15


\\ must seriously ask you why are you asking others to do something that the rcc, melkite, and EOC are unable to do themselves??
---john9346 on 12/6/15\\

Oh, we can do this for ourselves, and have repeatedly.

I think Monk Brendan challenging Protestants to do it for themselves and see what they come up with.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/15


Nicole,

Thanks for your recommendation, but when engaged in a serious substantive dialog google is very unreliable...

Everything is on google the good, the bad, and the ugly.

It is both smart and wise to allow the sources that represent the system they protect to speak for themselves.

Also, there are those who read these blogs who are seeking the truth.

Remember, There are 242 Roman Catholic Denominations.
---john9346 on 12/6/15


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