ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Did The Virgin Mary Die

People have been saying that the Catholic Church says that the Virgin Mary never died. Please show direct proof of that statement, with documentation.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan

Join Our Christian Dating and Take The Who Is Mary Bible Quiz
 ---Monk_Brendan on 12/17/15
     Helpful Blog Vote (3)

Post a New Blog



\\Which I don't believe for one second. But that is his and the RCC claim.
\\

The Orthodox Church doesn't believe that, either.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/5/16


In Catholic Doctrine does not the Pope speak for the whole church?

After all he is the head representative or Vicar of GOD on earth.

Which I don't believe for one second. But that is his and the RCC claim.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/4/16


BTW, you said the CHURCH condemned the teaching of the Assumption/Dormition.

Do you believe Pope Gelasius was the entire church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/16


\\494-496 Pope Gelasius in the Decree named, Decretum de Libris Canonicis Ecclesiasticis et Apocryphis.
---john9346 on 2/2/16\\

Was he condemning the Transitus as such--or was he merely saying it was not canonical?

I don't know anyone who claimed it was canonical.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/3/16


cluny ask, "When, john?" "Give the date, by whom, and where."

494-496 Pope Gelasius in the Decree named, Decretum de Libris Canonicis Ecclesiasticis et Apocryphis.
---john9346 on 2/2/16




\\Actually, the church condemned this belief...\\

When, john?

Give the date, by whom, and where.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/1/16


Cluny states, "
That did not stop the Church from believing what the Transitus actually said, which shows how seriously papal infallibility and primacy were taken at that point."

Actually, the church condemned this belief...

In addition, no church father in the first early centuries taught or believe in the assumption/dormition of mary.
---john9346 on 2/1/16


\\On another blog, you yourself agreed with me that papal infallibility and primacy didn't exist during this time of history.


So, are you now reversing your prior belief??
---john9346 on 1/31/1\\

Nope.

I'm using this as an historical example of how the undivided church did NOT believe in papal infallibility or primacy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/31/16


Cluny,

Sir, really??

On another blog, you yourself agreed with me that papal infallibility and primacy didn't exist during this time of history.


So, are you now reversing your prior belief??
---john9346 on 1/31/16


Good point Cluny.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/29/16




\\Sir, this is an Egregious Error, Pope Gelasius condemned this "Writing." \\

That did not stop the Church from believing what the Transitus actually said, which shows how seriously papal infallibility and primacy were taken at that point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/29/16


Cluny states, "Actually, the Transitus was recording what had already been believed."

Sir, this is an Egregious Error, Pope Gelasius condemned this "Writing."

these are his words:




"These and [writings] similar to these, which ... all the heresiarchs and their disciples, or the schismatics have taught or written ... we confess have not only been rejected but also banished from the whole Roman and Apostolic Church and with their authors and followers of their authors have been condemned forever under the indissoluble bond of anathema ("

Henry Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma (London: Herder, 1954), pp. 69-70).
---john9346 on 1/28/16


Cluny said, "The Roman Church and Latin rites are not the entirety of the Catholic Church."

But they are apart of the catholic church and allow for both positions.
---john on 1/28/16


\\It was declared dogma on 11/1/1950, but the origin of this belief comes from an Apocryphal Gospel called, "Transitus Beatae Mariae."\\

Actually, the Transitus was recording what had already been believed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/28/16


Samuelbb7 said, "If memory serves me the assumption of mary came about in the 50's."

It was declared dogma on 11/1/1950, but the origin of this belief comes from an Apocryphal Gospel called, "Transitus Beatae Mariae."

This is known and accepted by the rcc's Sources/authorities.

"The first express witness in the West to a genuine assumption comes to us in an apocryphal Gospel, the Transitus Beatae Mariae of PseudoMelito"

(Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 149)
---john9346 on 1/27/16


"The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitusnarratives of the fifth and sixth centuries."

(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209210)
---john on 1/27/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Make Money


\\"The Roman Church and Latin rites celebrate the Assumption but are silent on the question of whether she did in fact die, as we know death."\\

The Roman Church and Latin rites are not the entirety of the Catholic Church.

The Eastern Churches in communion with Rome are very, clear that the Virgin Mary did die, and MD refers to her physical death.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/27/16


Cluny states, "That is not what the Roman Catholic church believes, nor is it in what MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS says."

Actually, MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS states, "Completed her earthly life." you see it is ambiguous.


"The Roman Church and Latin rites celebrate the Assumption but are silent on the question of whether she did in fact die, as we know death."

William J. Byron, S.J

catholic digest
---john9346 on 1/27/16


Thank you Monk Brendan

So I was partially correct. It was not considered dogma until the 50's.

Not all early leaders agreed with it or taught it. So it is modern. If you can speak of anything that has been discussed for about a 1,000 years as being modern. :)

But there is no reason to believe that Mary did not die. Or that she does not sleep in her grave at this time.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 1/27/16


When I was a child, I was taught by the nuns (in Roman Catholic schools) that the Virgin Mary did indeed die, and that she was laid in a grave. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.---Monk_Brendan on 1/26/16

Please name the Religious order of the Nuns that taught you in Catholic School?

Also, the RCC has the CCC. Just write the number from the CCC and we can discuss the topic.

Words makes a difference and the RCC knows this.

Translation is important as well.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/27/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Rehab Treatments


Samuel BB said, "If memory serves me the assumption of Mary came about in the 50's."

The Assumption (in Byzantine terms Dormition--Falling Asleep) of the Virgin Mary has been believed and taught from the time of the apostles.

Pope Pious XII declared it a dogma in the 50's. Roman Catholics are required by the Church to believe this.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 1/27/16


\\If memory serves me the assumption of mary came about in the 50's.\\

Actually, it came about centuries before the 1950's.

However in 1950, Pope Pius XII declared it a dogma of faith in MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS. That is, it is required to be believed.

From the Orthodox viewpoint, this was totally unnecessary, as we had never had any doubts about it. The same can be said for the non-Chalcedonian churches.

However, Marian doctrine is the LAST thing I would discuss with people who don't even believe that the Virgin's Son is God Incarnate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/27/16


If memory serves me the assumption of mary came about in the 50's.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 1/27/16


When I was a child, I was taught by the nuns (in Roman Catholic schools) that the Virgin Mary did indeed die, and that she was laid in a grave. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

BTW, Enoch did not die (Gen 5:23-24) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not, for God took him.

And in 2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Pray for me,
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 1/26/16


Send a Free Funny Birthday Ecard


\\Roman Catholics believe that Mary, because she was born without the stain of Original Sin, did not have to die, as a consequence, she is the only human being to be assumed directly to heaven without passing through death.\\

That is not what the Roman Catholic church believes, nor is it in what MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS says.

Glory to Jesus Christ!!
---Cluny on 1/25/16


Thus, both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that the Virgins body is assumed into Heaven, but Orthodox Christians believe that the process included her death.

Roman Catholics believe that Mary, because she was born without the stain of Original Sin, did not have to die, as a consequence, she is the only human being to be assumed directly to heaven without passing through death.


On the other hand, Orthodox Christians believe that Mary inherited Adams mortality like all other human beings, and therefore died like the rest of us.



For Roman Catholics ST. Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church Emmaus PA
---john9346 on 1/25/16


Mary's death isn't in the Bible.

Jesus' death and Resurrection is recorded in the Bible.

If you believe Mary died a natural death: Continue to Focus on Jesus

If you believe Mary didn't die: Continue to Focus on Jesus.

Belief in Mary's death or that she didn't die has NO EFFECT on Jesus' DEATH AND RESURRECTION.

FOCUS
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/24/16


\\"the death of Mary is not certain, either historically or from revelation."\\

The death of the Virgin is VERY certain in the Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonian Churchees, and Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, as can be seen from their liturgical texts..

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/23/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Stocks


Brendan,

In the Apostolic Constitution MUNIFENTCISSIMUS DEUS pope Pius XII stated, "Completed her Earthly Life." which is still debated in the RC some say she died some say she didn't die..

"the death of Mary is not certain, either historically or from revelation."

Father Freithoff, O.P.,

"the death of the Most Holy Virgin may be considered as historically proved and explicitly revealed: as such (explicitly revealed) it may be the subject of a dogmatic definition:"

Father J. F. Bonnefoy, O.F.M.,
---john9346 on 1/21/16


Brendan ask, "People have been saying that the Catholic Church says that the Virgin Mary never died. Please show direct proof of that statement, with documentation."

Are you aware that this dogma comes from Gnostic Writings even noted by a well respected Marianist?
---john on 1/21/16


..you have to admit the validity of how that process normally works (i.e. inheriting genes from the parents involved,---StrongAxe

Not when God is involved.

How can you say that?

That was Mary's question because she states she doesn't know man.

You do you know what she is saying, right?

Biological speaking, Jesus' Body DOESN'T into her womb like any other human.

What do you think the Angel Gabriel meant when he said "For nothing is impossible..." ?????

Please answer my questions before having me to answer another one of your questions.
Be fair.

Do you believe Jesus has 100% DNA from Mary or not?
If not, please say who else gave Jesus His DNA?

Thank you.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/7/16


\\Regarding the original question, every Roman Catholic I know seems to have been taught that Mary did not die.\\

That's not the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, as you've been told many times.

\\f what people 'think' she looked like, in fence posts, toast and a multitude of other things is no proof of anything. Satan loves to deceive.\\

Human beings have a tendency to see images of many things in clouds, tree bark, and the like. This is not Satanic at all.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/7/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Diabetes


Regarding the original question, every Roman Catholic I know seems to have been taught that Mary did not die.

I know of no scripture at all which states that she did, didn't or that something different happened to her. I also know of no scripture which states that she is now Queen of Heaven.

I don't argue over this but just accept the teaching we are given in the Bible. All will be revealed when God is ready to do so but vague images, of what people 'think' she looked like, in fence posts, toast and a multitude of other things is no proof of anything. Satan loves to deceive.
---Rita_H on 1/7/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: StrongAxe, are you trying to figure out how God formed Jesus' Body from Mary's DNA only? You are not God.

God can do anything.


God could have formed Jesus's body out of a potted plant if he wanted to too, but he didn't.

Earlier, you wrote: Yes. True. That is why we said Jesus has 100% of Mary's DNA.

If you want to talk about Jesus's body being formed by some kind of scientific biological process (i.e. DNA), you have to admit the validity of how that process normally works (i.e. inheriting genes from the parents involved, rather than being formed ex nihilo), not just hand-wave and use "magic" to get around those parts of it that don't fit your theory.
---StrongAxe on 1/3/16


StrongAxe, are you trying to figure out how God formed Jesus' Body from Mary's DNA only? You are not God.

God can do anything.

Besides, you have forgotten that Mary still has 1/2 of her DNA from her father Joachim.

Also, Men have XY while Women have XX.

Humans still need BOTH to form a baby, or women would be having babies without men.

Never have there been a case of a woman having a kid without a man except for Mary.
And we know how Mary did have a Child by the power of the Holy Spirit which only overshadow her.

Answer please.
Are you saying Jesus has some other DNA that isn't Mary's DNA?

If not, then admit that all of Jesus' DNA is 100% of Mary's DNA.

Please state your position.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/2/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: The same place Adam got his X chromosome.

Not at all. God created Adam's, while Jesus got his from his mother.

All humans (and mammals), of either gender, have X chromosomes. Males have one (from their mother), and females have two (one from each parent).

In parthenogenesis, which occurs frequently in reptiles, females can give birth without the aid of a male, but then their children are always female, getting both X chromosomes from the mother.

Insects (like bees and ants) have U and V chromosomes, which work the other way around. Unfertilized eggs make males (drones whose only function is to fertilize eggs), and fertilized eggs make females (who do everything else).
---StrongAxe on 1/2/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Depression


Yes, but that's not all. Females lack the Y chromosome, and are incapable of giving birth to males. The Y had to come from somewhere, and it sure wasn't from Mary---StrongAxe on 1/2/16

The same place Adam got his X chromosome.

Mystery isn't it?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/2/16


According to the Bible 100% of Our Savior's human nature came from His Mother.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,

Happy New Year!
---Cluny on 1/2/16


kathr4453:

You said: Clunky, Not Joseph's DNA, you idiot...yes I just called you an idiot. Why?

You should choose your words very carefully:

Matthew 5:22: ... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Cluny:

You said: He did have all of the DNA the Virgin Mary provided.

Yes, but that's not all. Females lack the Y chromosome, and are incapable of giving birth to males. The Y had to come from somewhere, and it sure wasn't from Mary (unless Jesus was really a woman, but anyone who suggests that is opening up another huge can of worms...)
---StrongAxe on 1/2/16


Mary is blessed. All generations call her blessed. Knowing that won't draw one closer to the Father. But Jesus will.---john1944 on 1/1/16

And your Preacher does?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/1/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Bible Study


Nicole: "Give Scripture proof that Mary is Dead."

I already did.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die...

Mary lived, didn't she? Then unless she was resurrected or translated (for which there is zero scriptural evidence), then Mary is DEAD.

Nicole, everybody dies sooner or later. Deal with it. Just because some cult declares that somebody escaped death, that doesn't make it so.



---jerry6593 on 1/2/16


Mary is DEAD!---jerry6593 on 1/1/16

You all are so predictable.

Here we go again!

Give Scripture proof that Mary is Dead.

Since you only believe in Scripture only.

Please don't give the passage of everyone who sins dies because I prove via Scripture that Elijah didn't die, and everyone knows that Jesus who was sinless did die.

You all are so confused.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/1/16


Mary is blessed. All generations call her blessed. Knowing that won't draw one closer to the Father. But Jesus will.
---john1944 on 1/1/16


Mary is DEAD!

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.



---jerry6593 on 1/1/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Bible Verses


\\Whether you get it or not, Jesus was born SINLESS. that SINLESS NATURE, did not come from Mary\\

Yes, it did.

You don't think His human nature came from elsewhere, do you?

If this is so, He would not be descended from Adam, as the Bible in two places says He is.

Happy New Year!
---Cluny on 1/1/16


Kathr, calling someone a name might end up describing yourself.

You can't have 200% of anything.

Just because you believe something it doesn't mean it is true.

I believe in ghosts. So??

Kathr, just say you don't understand it and call it a day.
Now you have confused Micha:

God does not have DNA. God created DNA.--micha9344 on 12/31/15


Yes. True. That is why we said Jesus has 100% of Mary's DNA.

Or you saying Jesus isn't Mary's Son?


Jesus is God

Or you saying Jesus isn't God?

That is why TODAY is Mary, Mother of God.

To protect Jesus' Divinity.

Jesus is fully Human and God.

A beautiful Mystery!

Let God be God and not all of you.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/1/16


Clunky, Not Joseph's DNA, you idiot...yes I just called you an idiot. Why? Because you know I believe and have also stated GOD PROVIDED THE SEED FOR MARY's EGG. Every human has 50% mothers DNA and 50% Father's DNA. Whether you get it or not, Jesus was born SINLESS. that SINLESS NATURE, did not come from Mary. AND, the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST WAS PURE.

if Jesus were here today, would His DNA, be different than any other human? I believe it would be......

So yell, scream, shout, and roll on the floor is you must.....this is what I BELIEVE. He was 100% man AND 100% GOD. God's seed put in Mary gave Jesus 100% of His divinity. That is why it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to sin. Might be over your head.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/15


\\Jesus also had HIS FATHER'S DNA. Let's not forget that point. I was saying with His Father's DNA also, Jesus did not have 100% of Mary's.\\

Are you saying that Jesus had St. Joseph's DNA?

Fie, kathr!

The Father, being bodiless, does not have DNA.

He did have all of the DNA the Virgin Mary provided.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Arthritis


\\So where is the verse where Jesus as a grown man was subject to Mary? \\

When does the Decalogue allow us to stop honoring our parents?

\\If scripture serves me well, it appears Jesus around 13-14 chose to go about HIS FATHERS BUSINESS, and was no longer in subjection to Mary. Would you like me to find that verse for you? \\

I've already quoted the verse, and He was only twelve.

Scripture might serve you, but your memory does not.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/15


God does not have DNA.
God created DNA.
---micha9344 on 12/31/15


...God kept her from sin, then Mary had no free will---kathr453

WAIT IT MINUTE!
I don't know you at all. But from reading your posts for the last 8 months I would bet my house, yearly salary that you NEVER KILLED anyone.

My money would be tripled in my bank if someone dared to bet me that you did kill someone.

Now that we both know you never killed anyone.

Are you saying you didn't kill anyone because of your OWN strength, or GOD's GRACE?

I know your answer by knowing you. You are going to say by God's Grace alone.

And you have FREE WILL just as Mary did.

Why trouble the Angel to ASK Mary if God was going to force Mary to be His mother?

You are tripping up on your own Scriptures again.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/31/15


Cluny, Exactly how old was Jesus when He was subject to Mary AND JOSEPH? A child? The age ALL CHILDREN are to be subject to their parents? So where is the verse where Jesus as a grown man was subject to Mary? If scripture serves me well, it appears Jesus around 13-14 chose to go about HIS FATHERS BUSINESS, and was no longer in subjection to Mary. Would you like me to find that verse for you?

So exactly what was your point that Jesus as a child was subject to His earthly parents?

Did I ever say Jesus was not God? NEVER. So please stop injecting lies to make nonsense points.

Jesus also had HIS FATHER'S DNA. Let's not forget that point. I was saying with His Father's DNA also, Jesus did not have 100% of Mary's.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Asthma


Nicole, if Mary were sinless, and God kept her from sin, then Mary had no free will for one, and Mary then could have become the perfect sacrifice for sin. The reason God was made flesh, that is Jesus, is because no human was sinless and could be righteous of their own merit. You also have a very shallow understanding of Salvation, or Romans 5 for example. YOUR MARY is not the Mary of scripture. So maybe your Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture either. Maybe they have the same names, but certainly not the same identity. So what you are promoting is IDENTITY THEFT. BUT it wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last.
---kathr453 on 12/31/15


Nicole. The RCC and Orthodox teaches original sin.

Down through history the concept has changed a little.

Many believe and have taught children are guilty of sin for being born. This is what I oppose. br>
All accept we are born with a nature prone to sin. But a Baby cannot be held guilty of a sin since they are not committing sins.

Yes Jesus can give us the power to not live in sin. We have to be Born Again for that to happen.

Immaculate Conception says Mary was not born with that propensity to sin. She was not born with a Peccable nature. She was born with an impeccable nature and could not sin. This I and most protestants oppose.

May GOD bless you and keep you and yours in the New Year.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/31/15


\\Cluny says God, and Jesus were subject to Mary,\\

No, I didn't say that. If you quote me, quote me right.

Or do you not acknowledge Jesus as God Incarnate? If you don't, you don't believe in the real Jesus and are still in your sins.

\\ and this is in all the Gospels....yet no scripture to back up such a claim.\\

kathr, is this verse in your Bible?

Luke 2:51
And he [Jesus] went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them [Mary and Joseph]: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/15


Samuel, babies have original sin. Remember it is you all who claim EVERYONE has sinned.
Babies are not including in Everyone?

//I choose to believe the scriptures rather than false doctrines.---trey on 12/30/15

Have no fear because Scripture claims NOT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.

Please explain why you believe God isn't capable of keeping a person from sin if He wishes to do so?

If you can't say God can't keep a person from sin then you your god is limited.

My God is Capable and Able!

You all are getting tripped up in your own Spiritual theory which isn't correct.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/30/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Cholesterol


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)


Samuel, all babies are born separated from God because death passes upon all men. Don't confuse SIN with SINS. There is a difference. Everything associated with Adam 1 is sin. For those In Christ ,Adam 1's history ended , and we become a NEW Creature IN CHRIST. Everything outside of Christ is sin. Everyone outside of Christ will die, and also die a second death. Those who die with Christ and raised a New creature will not face the second death.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/15


Mary is dead!

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


---jerry6593 on 12/30/15


Cluny says God, and Jesus were subject to Mary, and this is in all the Gospels....yet no scripture to back up such a claim. Do you even know what being in subjection to another really means? Jesus on earth was subject to the Father, as we humans are in subjection to the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Nicole, your understanding of salvation is not scriptural. Mary did not become SINLESS, at her salvation nor do we. To be saved from sin was only made possible AFTER Jesus resurrection. OT saints as well as those during the time of Jesus on earth only had their sin COVERED, not taken away. Our sin was TAKEN AWAY AT THE CROSS WHEN JESUS BORE OUR SIN IN HIS OWN BODY.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/15


/If God CAN'T create a person and keep that person from sin He is WEAK.
Let God be God!\-Nicole_Lacey on 12/29/15
-Very true!!
Hence, there is no need for Mary to undergo anything for her to be the vessel of Jesus, except, as the scriptures state, be a virgin.
Let God be God!
---micha9344 on 12/30/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Lasik Surgery


Nicole,

If what you are saying to Kathr is true then both of the following verses are false.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
-and-
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

I choose to believe the scriptures rather than false doctrines.
---trey on 12/30/15


The difference Nicole is that we do not believe babies can sin. So they have never sinned. So at birth no one is a sinner.

But many teach that babies are sinners. They are guilty of the original sin.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/30/15


kathr, lets say I am walking and there is a big hole ahead of me.

You yell out 'stop' and I stopped.
You prevented me from falling into the hole.

Or I fell into the hole and you pulled me out of the hole.

Both times you saved me, right?

But, only in one of those scenarios did I fall.

Mary is saved at her conception by Jesus.

Because she is saved by God, she is even saved from sin.

Is your God capable of saving someone from sin?

Or is sin so powerful, one must fall into it's grasps in order to be saved by God?

NOT MY GOD!

He is capable of SAVING Mary from sin and did.

If God CAN'T create a person and keep that person from sin He is WEAK.

Let God be God!
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/29/15


Kathr said, "Now the reason I posted re: Fatima, AND how the Muslims also worship Mary, we see a connection with the RCC and Islam."

Actually, this is the accusation Muslims make against, "Real-true Christians."

Muslims do not "Worship Mary." to do so is to commit the "Unforgiveable Sin." of Shirk.

See, Sura 5:72-77 and 116 (Koran)
---john9346 on 12/29/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Bullion


\\Now the reason I posted re: Fatima, AND how the Muslims also worship Mary, \\

The entity the mahometans call "Mary" is not the Virgin Mary of Christianity.

Now, I'd like to point out something.

The Holy Gospels say that our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ was subject to her.

I suggest we show her the respect He did and stop arguing about her.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/15


Whether Mary died or not is of little importance. The fact that Jesus died and rose again for are salvation is of all importance.
---michael_e on 12/28/15


711 to 1492 A.D., Muslims conquered and occupied the lands of Spain and Portugal, forcing the people to become Islam. During this time of Moorish occupation, the small village in Portugal was named after a beloved 12th century Muslim princess named Fatima. Due to a reconquering by the defending Christian forces, Islamic Princess Fatima was captured. Princess Fatima married the Spanish Count of Ourem and converted to Catholicism. At baptism, she changed her name to Oureana. In the Islamic faith, many girls are named Fatima, after the daughter of Mohammed, the founder of Islam who lived from 570 to 632 A.D. When his daughter Fatima died, Mohammed expressed in his grief, She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/15


To say, "Sinless needs no savior," is to project modern Evangelical Christian ideas onto first century Judadism. It's not a good fit.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Menopause


Now the reason I posted re: Fatima, AND how the Muslims also worship Mary, we see a connection with the RCC and Islam. This secret note that the Virgin Mary pass on to these three sisters in Fatima was secretly shared with Arafat by Pope John Paul, who said the statue of Fatima saved his life ..remember ....

The assumption of Mary plays a great part in the doctrine of the RCC and their belief that the WOMAN in Rev 12 is Mary.....the sun and moon and stars ( they refuse to believe point to Joseph's dream, and the WOMAN being Israel) will be the great deception uniting the Islamic faith with the RCC. Re: the moon is also symbolic to the Islamic faith. Satan has been planning this deception from the beginning.
---kathr453 on 12/28/15


1 Timothy 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Nicole, you did state Mary needed to be saved, and Jesus was also Mary's savior. Sinlessness need no savior.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/15


\\Monk, I believe the deeper thought here states that the Virgin Mary ...\\

That is not the teaching of either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

The Eastern Churches believe that in the presence of the gathered Apostles, Christ Himself received the soul of His Mother into His arms and brought it to heaven--not because of sin on her part, but because she loved her Son so much and wanted to be like Him as possible.

Her body was placed in a tomb on Gethsemane in Jerusalem (everybody there knows where it is).

Some indefinite time, her body was taken into heaven also, resurrected, and she lives totally in the Age to Come--but this is the destiny of ALL who love Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/27/15


Nicole, Mary is alive as all saved souls are alive, called eternal life...however Mary's body is not in heaven, nor will it be until the first resurrection, when our bodies will be fashioned as His. We don't know what we will be, but we know we will be like Him. There is no reason for Mary body to have been assumed into heaven. And no scripture ever states Mary was assumed into heaven. It is appointed for all meant to die once. Moses died and his bones were hidden. He is now recorded in Hebrews 12 as the spirits of Just men made perfect.

Saved Nicole means to be saved from sin and death. So Jesus also saved Mary from sin and death as He has all who have put their faith in Him.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/15


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Penpals


Kathr, your statement is logical.

Yes, the RCC believes Mary is still alive as Moses and Elijah during Jesus' Transfiguration.

The RCC teaches that BECAUSE of Jesus' Resurrection Mary was Assumed into Heaven Body and Soul..

Jesus is Mary's Savior ALSO.

The only disagreement we have is at WHAT point Mary was Saved.
Not if she was saved.

You might have been Saved at an earlier age than I.
Is that fair, if you were???

God is God.
He CAN decide who and when a person is saved not you or me.

The RCC proclaims we know she was Saved at her conception.
Protestants claims we (RCC) DON'T know when she was Saved.

That is the argument.
We AGREE that Mary was Saved as everyone else.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/27/15


Monk, I believe the deeper thought here states that the Virgin Mary was sinless, and with that doctrine comes that she never died. Only sinners die. In Adam all die. And that means simply that in Adam all are sinners. So one either believes Mary too was a sinner who died or she was sinless, making it impossible for her to die. Remember Jesus died because our sin was put on Him, and He died in our place. Death is the consequence of sin. Now our only hope for LIFE is our faith in Jesus Christ. HE is our resurrection to those who have put their faith in Him taking away our sin, making our resurrection possible.

So does the RCC teach Mary will be resurrected IN CHRIST at the first resurrection or is she still alive now making appearances?
---kathr4453 on 12/27/15


People have been saying that the Catholic Church says that the Virgin Mary never died. ---Monk_Brendan on 12/17/15

Why does this bother you?

Does not this doctrine say that Mary "fell asleep and was taken to heaven body and soul"? If Mary did or did not die seems irrelevant to me.

The validity of the doctrine itself is more significant to me.

The "proof" of this doctrine comes from 50 or so apocryphal pieces written 300-500 years after the actual death of Mary with many of these apocryphal pieces being Gnostic and anonymously written.

So, to put it in modern times. Would you consider anything written today about the life of William Shakespeare to be factually accurate?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/18/15


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.