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What Is Real Presence

I'm beginning to wonder if the people on these blogs understand the difference among:

1. Real Presence

2. Transubstantiation

3. Consubstantiation

4. Receptionism

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 ---Cluny on 2/1/16
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Please notice, people, that I have asked Jerry twice to point out in the Mass where the priest passes out human flesh and human blood.

Notice also that he has not answered

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/9/16


cluny said, "However, I don't expect you to understand this."

Actually sir, I believe it is you who do not understand.

Eastern Orthodoxy does indeed teach that the sacrifice is propitiatory:

"We offer for all: according to Orthodox theology, the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice, offered on behalf of both the living and the dead."

Orthodox Wiki


Brendan, you are in disagreement with the council of trent because trent said the sacrifice is propitiatory.
---john9346 on 2/9/16


Ruben:
Q. ...why [say] flesh & blood!
A. Figure of speech (metaphor)

Q. ...Jesus [said] eat his flesh & drink his blood... often...
A. Symbolism (the use of symbols to represent ideas)

Jesus said (LK 22): "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."
A. The cup was symbolic of when He would literally shed His blood & die...

Q. Was his blood shed...or was it [symbolic]?
A. ??? What does the Bible say Ruben?

"This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world" JHN 6:51
Q.Another symbol?
A. Have you not read also verses 52-65? Therein lies your answer.
---Leon on 2/9/16


Kathr4453, which Augustine?

Augustine of Hippo?
Augustine of Canterbury? And many more Augustine in history.

One wrote 'Confessions'
Which he speaks about his FORMAL way of life and beliefs.

That is why you need to CITE your SOURCES. You are mistaken. Cite it and I will prove it!

BTW, please STOP running to Paul to DISOBEY Jesus.

//Water Baptism doesn't save either Cluny. Spiritual baptism does...Romans 6.--kathr4453

Not according to Jesus. Mark 16:16
Only two things Jesus states we must do to have eternal life.
Both you reject.

Baptism and Eating His Flesh/Drinking His Blood. John 6:54

If Paul confuses you, please just follow the Gospel and you will be Saved.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/9/16


\\Samuel, I'm surprised you have never heard many who say Augustine brought many gnostic teachings into Christianity\\

Name one such person, please, citing where the writer said this, and what the particular gnostic teaching/s was/were.

\\I don't MAKE UP LIES Samuel.\\

Yes, you do, kathr. You falsely accused Monk Brendan of trying to eat his way to God and heaven.

Blessed, praised, worshipped, and adored be our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ on His throne of glory in Heaven and the most holy Mystery of the Eucharist.
---Cluny on 2/9/16




Samuel, I'm surprised you have never heard many who say Augustine brought many gnostic teachings into Christianity. Much of Calvinism as well came from Augustine's gnostic beliefs. He admits he was a gnostic, and then left that teaching, however many have pointed out in his writings he never completely turned away from many of it's ideas. You can go online and pull from MANY DIFFERENT websites on this issue.

Search for yourself that this subject has been discussed through out history regarding Augustine. I don't MAKE UP LIES Samuel. All spiritual KNOWLEDGE, not grounded in scripture is Gnosticism.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/16


From the Orthodox viewpoint, no.

The Sacrifice was offered once for all. It is simultaneously eternally pleaded in heaven, and we are present at it in the Divine Liturgy.

However, I don't expect you to understand this.

Blessed, praised, worshipped, and adored be our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ on His throne of glory in heaven and in the most holy Mystery of the Eucharist.
---Cluny on 2/9/16


John 9346 said, " "The Eucharist is the same sacrifice of the Cross, made present: "The Holy Eucharist is the repetition of the Mystical Supper. It is also the self-same Sacrifice of the Cross, repeated sacramentally."

I don't know who Fr. George Grube is, but that is not correct. The Sacrifice of the Cross has never been repeated. It was once for all time. However, in the Eucharist we are brought to the Last Supper, where all have a share.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/9/16


Cluny and brendan,

Tell me gentlemen, according to the following quotation is the sacrifice propriatory or not yes or no.




"The Eucharist is the same sacrifice of the Cross, made present: "The Holy Eucharist is the repetition of the Mystical Supper. It is also the self-same Sacrifice of the Cross, repeated sacramentally."

(Grube, Fr. George The Orthodox Church A to Z
---john9346 on 2/9/16


Cluny states, "John 6 is a foreshadowing--prophecy, if you like--of the Eucharist."

Sir, Please provide the Greek Word where John the apostle, the author of John chapter 6 use prophetic language referencing transubstantiation??
---john on 2/9/16




Samuel BB said, MonBrendan you got that statement from Ellen G. White from a website. Not the original. How do I know because you have the word change in there that is not in the original. She say they considered helping the south. She did not say they would. It is a fact from History that they did consider it."

Forgive me Samuel, I got the quote from a website, however, I very carefully compared it to the official EGW site, and they agree, word for word. How have I misquoted?

True, it is off topic, but I was pointing out, charitably, that followers of EGW have been led astray.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/9/16


Leon* Jesus wanted His disciples to "remember" WHY they were eating the bread & drinking the wine.

But why use the words flesh and blood!

Leon *Cannibalism? God forbid, NO! Symbolism? YES, most definitely!!!

God forbid-yet Jesus use eating his flesh and drinking his blood quiet often, didn't he?

JHN 6:53-54-55-56-57-58

Jesus said in LK 22: " This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."

Was his blood shed for us or was it a symbol?

" This bread is my flesh which I will give to the world" JHN 6:51- Another symbol??
---Ruben on 2/9/16


\\Kathyr I have only read a few
things by Augustine. I saw no evidence of him being gnostic. Do you have any evidence of this charge?
\\

St. Augustine when through a Manichean period before his conversion, but he was never a gnostic.

Manicheeism might have some points in common with gnosticism, such as the inherent evil of matter--which is why neither would accept the Incarnation--but they were two different systems.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/9/16


FYI: Luke 22:19, Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me." Having been instructed by Him for 3 years the disciples knew He spoke of Himself regarding Jn. 6:35, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be HUNGRY again. Whoever believe in me will never THIRST."

Jesus wanted His disciples to "remember" WHY they were eating the bread & drinking the wine.

Cannibalism? God forbid, NO! Symbolism? YES, most definitely!!!
---Leon on 2/9/16


\\ Wow Cluny, obviously the truth has caused you to react like a pharasee. Do I see murder in your words? \\

kathr, thank you for blessing me and adding to my heavenly treasure.

BTW, vituperation is more effective when correctly spelled. The word is "Phar**I**see". There is not a second "a" in it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/9/16


Kathyr I have only read a few
things by Augustine. I saw no evidence of him being gnostic. Do you have any evidence of this charge?

We are supposed to use the truth only to defend truth. I really have a problem with false accusations like that Augustine is Gnostic.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/9/16


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Wow Cluny, obviously the truth has caused you to react like a pharasee. Do I see murder in your words? My, the name calling and froth coming out of your mouth is there BECAUSE, I don't ADD to scripture the way you do??????? Because YOU claim the Holy Spirit revealed something to YOU, without the witness of the WORD to back it up? It doesn't work that way....IN REAL CHRISTIANITY.

Firstly, do you see any of my posts addressing YOU? And do you see Monk acting like YOU?

Water Baptism doesn't save either Cluny. Spiritual baptism does....clearly defined in Romans 6.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/16


Monk Brendan: Congratulations! you are the first Catholic here to admit that the communion emblems are NOT flesh and blood. Logically then, transubstantiation does not produce its advertized result.

Cluny, on the other hand, can't bring himself to answer such a straightforward question, calling it psychobabble. Meanwhile he seems to consider such concepts as mystical transformation and real presence as not psychobabble, but rather solid logic. LOL!


---jerry6593 on 2/9/16


Bible Study 101

1. The Holy Spirit reveals the WORD of God. There is no independent contractor here "teaching" anyone ANYTHING, apart from the WORD OF GOD. So, what Cluny is talking about is GNOSTICISM....and also let's remember MANY of the early RCC teachers were GNOSTICS, re: Augustine.

Scripture teaches scripture Cluny, and the VEIL, that led to the Holy of Holies, represented the FLESH OF JESUS, shows no types or shadows in the OT that it was nibbled on, or licked, or torn in pieces to eat. Therefore your revelation you claim to have, not founded in scripture, is fanciful thinking that appeals only to your Fleshly mind. And no one drank any blood either.
---kathr453 on 2/9/16


Deuteronomy 12:23

23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life, and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.
---kathr4553 on 2/9/16


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\\If you have bypassed this step, and believe you can EAT YOUR WAY TO GOD, OR Heaven...\\

kathr, if you were baptized by immersion, do you believe you are swimming your way to God?

The only thing that keeps your words from being the rankest blasphemy is the utter ignorance and blindness that prompted your accusation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/8/16


Brendan said, "
I did not nor have I ever said that the Bible was not inspired. I just find it hard to believe that God spent all that time dictating to the writers.


Sir, do you understand the meaning of inspiration

read below:
Inspiration is the doctrine that the Bible was written by the influence of God and is without error in the original documents.

It is accurate and authoritatively represents God's Teachings.

As such it is a revelation from God which implies direct knowledge about God, creation, man, salvation, the future, etc.

It is an illumination in that it shows us what we could not know apart from it.
---john9346 on 2/8/16


\\Also,at the last supper, we see nowhere Jesus actually TURNED, wine and bread into HIS flesh and blood. \\

Speak for yourself, kathr.

You can't see because you are spiritually blinded.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/8/16


Jerry said, "Just answer my question directly, if you can. Do YOU believe that you are actually eating raw flesh and blood?"

No! I am partaking of His Body--even though it looks like bread, it is still His Body, a miracle that I cannot understand.

There is no raw flesh of any sort! But directly answer my question. If you have seen (and paid attention to) a Mass, at what point does the priest distribute raw flesh and human blood?

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/8/16


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\\Do YOU believe that you are actually eating raw flesh and blood?
\\

And yet more psychobabble, jerry.

How do you do it?

BTW, I am NOT Monk Brendan, so why are you expecting me to answer questions put to him?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/8/16


cluny: Yet another EGW misquote from out of left field? This is your own blog question. One would think that you could stick with it.

Just answer my question directly, if you can. Do YOU believe that you are actually eating raw flesh and blood?


---jerry6593 on 2/8/16


Monk, I'm simply stating, based on other supporting scripture, you have taken John 6 out of context. Also,at the last supper, we see nowhere Jesus actually TURNED, wine and bread into HIS flesh and blood. Why didn't He? ......since you say your priests have such powers from on high. Hebrews 10, GOD said, " a body has been prepared" but nowhere in Hebrews, where there are more verses on the body and blood of Jesus does any scripture even support or suggest what you all are teaching and believing. Jesus BODY was prepared to take our sin upon it, and die for our sin. ....and THIS body you say you are EATING. A body filled with ALL THE SIN OF ALL THE WORLD FROM ADAM ON.....you say you are eating to get some blessing?
---kathr4453 on 2/8/16


MonBrendan you got that statement from Ellen G. White from a website. Not the original. How do I know because you have the word change in there that is not in the original. She say they considered helping the south. She did not say they would. It is a fact from History that they did consider it.

You don't like false accusations against the RCC. I don't like false accusation against anyone. Which includes Ellen G. White.

That is also not part of this discussion. So why are you sidetracking to make an accusation? What is your reason?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/8/16


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Hi Brendan,

First, as a monk, I would have expected better from you.

I do not nor will I ever call anyone on this blog names and you should know better than to engage in false accusations.


When addressing you, I state, "Sir."


I have noticed,however, when I ask you and cluny Substantive Questions, the response is, "Straw-Man-Type Responses."

Remember, the readers/viewers are watching the Straw-Man Responses which questions your credibility.


I am not here to fight with you and cluny sir, I left Childish Ways and Behavior behind when I became a Christian.

God Bless,


John
---john9346 on 2/7/16


Kathr said, "If you have bypassed this step, and believe you can EAT YOUR WAY TO GOD, OR Heaven..."

We are not eating our way to God! We are partaking in the blessings that God has given us. Matt 6:11 "Give us this day our daily bread." (in Greek, ton arton hmn ton epiousion) (in Latin panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie)

See the Latin word, supersubstantialem? That means the bread above essence. Now, if this is just a symbol, why would Jerome (in the Vulgate) not translate it as panem--bread? Because he believed ( and the Church taught) that it was special, that it was, indeed, the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Pray for me,
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/7/16


Do you really believe that you are eating Christ's raw flesh and drinking His blood in your mass?---jerry6593 on 2/6/16

RAW???

Do you eat raw beef?

Do you eat beef?

If it isn't raw are you not STILL eating beef?

Did Jesus call His Flesh raw meat or Bread?

BREAD!!!!!!

You have to cook dough to make it bread.

Jerry, please stop playing with Jesus' Words.

Stop trying to be clever and read and BELIEVE Jesus' Words.

Not raw, but Bread.

We drink Wine in our Mass that is Jesus' Blood.

You are drinking grape juice because you have no Priesthood and your house of worship is incapable of having TRUE COMMUNION with God WITHOUT the Priesthood.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/16


Jerry said, " monk: Do you really believe that you are eating Christ's raw flesh and drinking His blood in your mass? Then YOU believe that you are a cannibal."

This is THE BREAD THAT IS ABOVE ESSENCE, not ordinary bread.

But Jerry, in 1862, Ellen G. White prophesied that "when England does declare war[,] all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion."Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 259.

As you know, England did not "declare war" against the United States during the Civil War, and the United States was not "humbled into the dust".
---Monk_Brendan on 2/7/16


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More psychobabble from you, I see, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/6/16


monk: Do you really believe that you are eating Christ's raw flesh and drinking His blood in your mass? Then YOU believe that you are a cannibal.



---jerry6593 on 2/6/16


What is real presence? Many have different ideas about what it means to have CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY. The MYSTERY, of Christ in you was never via through the mouth and into the digestive system. No OT or new ever makes such a statement. One also must remember that one must BE IN CHRIST, as well as Christ in us. ..which does not mean He eats our flesh and drinks our blood literally either. So the MYSTERY was/is never cannibalism. As Eve was in Adam, so is the Church IN CHRIST.

Colossians 3:1-4 , Galatians 2:20-21, Romans 6-8 state clearly one must be crucified with Christ for Him to be in you and you in Him. This is what John 6 is all about where Jesus was alluding to the Mystery.....and prayed for in John 17.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/16


To conclude, Hebrews 10, also clarify we come THROUGH THE VEIL, THAT IS TO SAY HIS FLESH. Nothing about eating your way through. We come TO GOD, THROUGH CHRIST. The ONLY way to come to the Father, is THROUGH CHRIST. And that can only happen when one is crucified with Christ and raised a New Creature IN CHRIST. If you have bypassed this step, and believe you can EAT YOUR WAY TO GOD, OR Heaven, you are going to be greatly disappointed on Judgement day.

The preaching of THE CROSS, is foolishness to,those who believe they can EAT the Righteousness of Christ that is imputed by faith, not imparted through the mouth in bite size pieces.
---kathr453 on 2/6/16


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\\If I don't agree with Transubstantiation then will I be tortured in hell for all eternity?\\

I would say rather you are cheating yourself of all sorts of blessings now if you don't agree with the Real Presence. (Orthodoxy has never committed herself to Transubstantiation in the proper meaning of the term.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/6/16


John 9346 said, "And based on your own statement there is know [spelled N-O] objective truth.

"It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God,"


I did not nor have I ever said that the Bible was not inspired. I just find it hard to believe that God spent all that time dictating to the writers. Sounds a bit too much of Joseph Smith.

What I have continued to assert is that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, Whom I love, and have tried to follow lo, these many years.

Pray for me,
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/5/16


John said, "Based on the following is the "Eukarist." a Propitiatory Sacrifice yes or no gentlemen??"

Based on what? What is supposed to be following your first sentence?

I don't care what names you call me, but hands off misspelling the Sacrifice of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Based on the following, do you know how to construct a sentence, much less a logical argument? Yes or no, sir.

I'm praying for you,
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/5/16


I cannot agree with the Pagan Romes who charged Christians with cannibalism.

But then I don't believe it becomes the real body and blood of JESUS.

If I don't agree with Transubstantiation then will I be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/5/16


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Cluny and brendan,



Based on the following is the "Eukarist." a Propitiatory Sacrifice yes or no gentlemen??
---john on 2/5/16


Jerry said, " I understand that such psychobabble terms are nothing but an attempt to whitewash the pagan practices of cannibalistic cults."

Jerry, have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Have you ever watched one on TV? If so, please point to the place where the priest passes out human flesh and human blood.

Pray for me,
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/5/16


Brendan states, "These are promises of punishments God will give them if they don't repent. I don't believe that they ever descended to that level." "However, this is not cannibalism."

They did sir and how can you say, "The eating of Another's Flesh." of which these verses unequivocally State is not cannibalism??


And based on your own statement there is know objective truth.

"It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God,"
---john9346 on 2/5/16


\\I do know the differences of the terms\\

Good for you.

But I've noticed that many people here do NOT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/5/16


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John said, "Sir, this is blatantly false have you not read Lev 26:27-30, Eze 5:7-11, and Jer 19:7-10?"

These are promises of punishments God will give them if they don't repent. I don't believe that they ever descended to that level.

However, this is not cannibalism. As Cluny quoted in an earlier post, ""If you start with the presupposition, "It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God," then all you have is just an opinion "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH."

Okay, you don't like to be confronted with anything close to truth, so...

Pray for me!
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/5/16


///...[the Bible doesn't mention cannibalism!] But this is eating of the Lamb that was slain for the salvation of the world, [?]...---Monk_Brendan on 2/4/16///

Monk: Passover "reminded" the Jews of how God delivered (saved) them out of Egypt. The literally eaten sacrificial Passover lambs (without spot or blemish) were a foreshadowing of Jesus sacrificing His life to save US. "Spotless" (sinless) Jesus actually allowed Himself to be consumed (devoured) by our sins. BUT, we're not to literally crucify Him over-n-over again when we take spiritually symbolic communion. Instead, we're to "CHEW UPON" (think about, REMEMBER) & "DRINK IN" what Jesus said about WHY He was crucified...
---Leon on 2/5/16


Cluny said, "Yes, they have GREAT relevance to what is recorded in the Bible."

Sir, Please explain those relevance in that the Lord Jesus Christ died only once,his sacrifice was perfect and there is no need for it to be done again and again see John 1930.

I do know the differences of the terms,however, you do need to keep in mind that through out church history the views fell in 2 categories Spiritual and Physical.

Do you understand this?
---john9346 on 2/5/16


Brendan you said, "Granted, nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of cannibalism!"

Sir, this is blatantly false have you not read Lev 26:27-30, Eze 5:7-11, and Jer 19:7-10?

Sir, remember what I said to you on another blog because you are clearly demonstrating exactly as I stated:



"If you start with the presupposition, "It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God," then all you have is just an opinion "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH."
---john on 2/5/16


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Leon said, "Monk: I. You say you understand what a metaphor" [is]. I do. A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable...."I hope you guys know Jesus is God & MAN?"

I learned that in first grade!

"...Where in the Bible does Jesus, the Prophets & Apostles teach actual cannibalism & drinking blood?"

Granted, nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of cannibalism! But this is eating of the Lamb that was slain for the salvation of the world, and there are plenty of references to eating of the lamb at Passover.

Pray for me,
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/4/16


cluny: "As far as accusing me of cannibalism, the pagan Romans laid the same charge against Christians before Constantine."

Pagan Rome became the RCC which also became the faux-Orthodox church to which you belong. Not only did you continue the pagan practice of flesh & blood eating, but also of spiritualism and the false worship day of Mithras.

No amount of psychobabble or Greek names for everything can cover the shameful falsehood of your cult.



---jerry6593 on 2/5/16


//I see this in the same way as you see speaking in tongues.\\

Been there, done that, bought the mug, t-shirt, bumper sticker, and refrigerator magnet.

\\Yet you, in your triumphant understanding, do not believe this gift exists today, \\

WRONG!

I never said that this gift does not exist today.

What I am waiting for is PROOF that the senseless, meaningless babbling that goes on in Pentecostal churches is the same thing as the gift of tongues in Acts.

So far, nobody has given any.

\\that your understanding of Scripture is perfect,\\

Don't you think that YOURS is?

If not, why do you hold to it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/5/16


people rejoicing in their poor understanding
---Cluny on 2/4/16

I see this in the same way as you see speaking in tongues.

I have for my entire walk with Jesus, been able to speak in tongues. My ministers, my family, my friends, they all speak in tongues. My church does not encourage it but my church does not discourage it. We do not use it in church services.

Yet you, in your triumphant understanding, do not believe this gift exists today, that your understanding of Scripture is perfect, and confidently tell everyone so.

But when your beliefs are challenged, well, then you tell everyone they have a triumphant misunderstanding.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/4/16


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\\I understand that such psychobabble terms are nothing but an attempt to whitewash the pagan practices of cannibalistic cults.

---jerry6593 on 2/4/16
\\

Just because YOU don't understand something doesn't make it psychobabble.

In fact, these are THEOLOGICAL terms (like the SDA non-Biblical term "investigative judgement").

As far as accusing me of cannibalism, the pagan Romans laid the same charge against Christians before Constantine.

Nice to know you're of one mind with them, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/16


Quite often when people cannot back up their words with scripture they resort to insults and put downs.

As Christians we should always speak in love. In all things we are to show charity.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/4/16


The Roman Catholic Church speaks of "invincible ignorance".

But on these blogs I often see triumphant (and triumphalist) ignorance--that is, people rejoicing in their poor understanding.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/16


///Just curious, are any of these terms in any bible? I only checked the KJV and the only word that is in the KJV is "presence". Even the word "real" is not...---chria9396 on 2/3/16///

Chria: By now it should be quite obvious to you, & the other "people on these blogs", these guys are trying to dazzle us with their brilliance (luminosity), but, at best, their strange doctrines (grandiose sounding words & terms) are extremely baffling & cloaked in dark confusion. Where did they get their spurious ideas? Well, certainly they weren't authored by Almighty God, otherwise they'd appear plainly in the Bible.
---Leon on 2/3/16


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I understand that such psychobabble terms are nothing but an attempt to whitewash the pagan practices of cannibalistic cults.


---jerry6593 on 2/4/16


\\Sir, you didn't answer the question asked of you that is, "Do any of the above terms have any real relevance to what is recorded in the Bible?"\\

Yes, they have GREAT relevance to what is recorded in the Bible.

Now-do YOU know the differences among these four terms I listed?

A simple yes or no will do.

**Okay then, why do you say He has to make His body "present" in the Eucharist? **

God doesn't "HAVE" to do anything, but why are you limiting the ways He CHOOSES to be present? Could it be because you don't like it or believe it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/16


John 9346 said, "Sir, you didn't answer the question asked of you that is, "Do any of the above terms have any real relevance to what is recorded in the Bible?"

Yes!

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/4/16


Interesting points John.

Monk Brendan you make it sound like Protestants who do not believe in Transubstantiation are lost. But Some Protestants believe in the Real Presence which is about the same.

Our church has the same understanding as the Methodist basically.

But when I read on what people will be judged by according to Jesus in Matthew 25. It will be more like what the current Pope says. How we treat others. Then about what a person thinks about communion.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/4/16


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You all believe what you want to believe.

I'll believe our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ and His holy Word.

Glory to Him!
---Cluny on 2/4/16


Brendan said, "All of the terms in Cluny's post have relevance to our life in Christ,"

Sir, you didn't answer the question asked of you that is, "Do any of the above terms have any real relevance to what is recorded in the Bible?"

It is a simple yes or no.
---john9346 on 2/3/16


God has ALWAYS been present and has ALWAYS participated as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
---Cluny on 2/3/16

Okay then, why do you say He has to make His body "present" in the Eucharist?

Is He not already present?

Is He not already present in the bread and wine, helping them to consist and keeping them together?

Now, do you see why I disagree?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/16


\\"To put it briefly, in order to be participated with, God becomes present to his creation as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit"

The reason I disagree with this is because God has always participated, has always been present,\\

Exactly.

God has ALWAYS been present and has ALWAYS participated as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You didn't think there was a time He did not do this, did you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/3/16


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"Do you believe in objective truth--that is, something that will always be true, whether one believes it or not?" Yes. Jesus, The Christ, Is Lord.
---Josef on 2/3/16


\\I would not argue simply because what ever one believes to be true, is for that one, truth, and who am I to argue another mans truth. \\

Do you believe in objective truth--that is, something that will always be true, whether one believes it or not?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/3/16


Just curious, are any of these terms in any bible? I only checked the KJV and the only word that is in the KJV is "presence". Even the word "real" is not...
---chria9396 on 2/3/16


(In fact, there's a book with this very title dealing with this issue by ST. Nicholas Cabasilas.)
---Cluny on 2/2/16

In reading a summary of Nicholas Cabsilas, I could not make it out of the first paragraph in the Introduction without disagreeing. The sentence I disagree with (and the thought introduced by Augustine) is:

"To put it briefly, in order to be participated with, God becomes present to his creation as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit"

The reason I disagree with this is because God has always participated, has always been present, and will continue so forever. John 1, Col. 1, and Heb. 1 tell us that Jesus created, sustains, holds all things together. God can't be more present or involved.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/16


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//...because you have Protestant blinders on, you fail to see...how you [aren't] receiving the Body & Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, & therefore removing yourselves from His Presence. [?!!!] ...---Monk_Brendan on 2/2/16///

Monk: II. Luke 22:19, Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me." Having been instructed by Him for 3 years they knew He spoke of Himself regarding Jn. 6:35, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be HUNGRY again. Whoever believe in me will never THIRST." Jesus wanted His disciples to "remember" WHY they were eating the bread & drinking the wine.

Cannibalism? God forbid, NO! Symbolism? Most definitely!!!
---Leon on 2/3/16


Brendan said, "I was taught how to read the Bible, and I was taught that if something is repeated 3 times, you should pay attention Matt 26:27-28, Mk 14:23-24, Luke 22:19-20 ICor 11:23-25 John 6:53-56. ."

I am asking you as a monk sir this question is this the same hermeneutics you would use to believe and defend the trinity, and the deity of Christ?
---john9346 on 2/3/16


No I really don't care what the differences are. Romans 14:5.
---Scott1 on 2/2/16


Cluny I have looked up the definitions, and doctrine, It's how that doctrine is relevant to our salvation and our being conformed to the image of Christ that I am inquiring about. If you can clear that up for me it would be appreciated. However if I am asking too much, or you are unwilling to make that connection for me, I understand.
Whether the wine and bread consumed in communion becomes, in reality, the Body and Blood of Jesus, and that he is actually present in it, is a matter of belief, and is something I would not argue simply because what ever one believes to be true, is for that one, truth, and who am I to argue another mans truth. Whatever the belief, is okay with me.
---Josef on 2/2/16


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///...because you have Protestant blinders on, you fail to see...how you [aren't] receiving the Body & Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, & therefore removing yourselves from His Presence. Search the Bible, you will find prophecies and types of the Eucharist all over...---Monk_Brendan on 2/2/16///

Monk: I. You say you understand what a metaphor (figure of speech) is, but you clearly show that you don't. I hope you guys know Jesus is God & MAN? Jesus resisted religious people like you who are always trying to square peg a round hole with false doctrine. Where in the Bible does Jesus, the Prophets & Apostles teach actual cannibalism & drinking blood? Both are Bible taboo practices.
---Leon on 2/2/16


\\This has nothing to do with Jesus or the Holy Spirit or salvation. Stay focused on the goal.
---faithforfaith on 2/2/16\\

Yes, they do.

But my point, which you seem to miss, is that very few people on these blogs know what "transubstantiation" actually means.

Most people on here seem to be confusing these four terms.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/2/16


Leon said, " People on these blogs: Do any of the above terms have any real relevance to what is recorded in the Bible?"

All of the terms in Cluny's post have relevance to our life in Christ, and our salvation.

However, because you have Protestant blinders on, you fail to see (refuse to see?) how you are not receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, and therefore removing yourselves from His Presence.

Search the Bible, you will find prophecies and types of the Eucharist all over.

Plus, if you really believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God (as I do), then you should take God at His Word.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/2/16


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