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 ---Cluny on 2/11/16
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"Jesus is not omniscient, he is the son of God and remains submissive to his God even after his resurrection.---David8318 on 3/6/16"
David, the risen Son, has not yet been made subject to the Father, for He sets in the complete power and authority of the Father, which is what is meant by the statement "He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God". "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him, who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." For now, as Jesus Himself said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." Mat 28:18 RSV
---josef on 3/6/16


John9346 I posted the following. 3/2/16
John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Do you know this verse.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Read John 1. Also 10:30. Explain all these and then we can give you more. But you explain nothing. Why?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/6/16


\\David said, "I've not been shown any verses supporting the pagan trinity."\\

I don't know any verses that support the pagan trinity, either.

But I know PLENTY of verses that support the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/7/16


John9346- what scriptures have you provided which directly and specifically mention "trinity", "God the holy spirit", or "three in one"?

All the scriptures you have given do not in any way teach the trinity in the terms you understand or promote. The trinity is a pagan teaching in existence long beofre Christ came to earth and long before the 1st century.

It truly is laughable to find people believing the trinity is unique to the Bible when it clearly is not. As you abundantly demonstrate in your impotence to provide any scriptures which sprcifically state the "trinity" dogma in the terms you use.
---David8318 on 3/7/16


Josef, spiritual death is separation from God. All humans are born that way. That is why they need to be born again. Those who are never saved remain spiritually dead. When the Second Coming comes, they will receive a body prepared for hell. They still have to go to their judgment. After their sentenced they will again be spiritually dead to God, that is the second death. Believers do not go to the second death, when they were born again they remain spiritually born again forever. I don't know how else to put it. That is the way I understand the second death.
Thank you Josef for discussing this with me.
---Luke on 3/7/16




David said, "I've not been shown any verses supporting the pagan trinity."

Sir, I and others are waiting for you to address the verses we have given you on this post as well as Advantage of Christianity and Who was Arius Postings.


David, Are you able to address them??

I want you to remember this and never forget:


"Those who do not have good arguments or verses for their views. Often resort to juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks."
---john9346 on 3/6/16


"All people born are born dead to Christ... That is the first spiritual death. the unbeliever will be send to hell, where he will be punished. It is his second spiritual death, for he will be separated from God forever." Luke does that statement really make sense to you? If one is born dead, spiritually, and never made alive in Christ, why would that one have to die, spiritually? To put it another way, how would a person die spiritually, when he has never lived, spiritually? I do not usually ask rhetorical questions, for that appears facetious, even sarcastic. But I really want you to think about that statement. Your theology is so sound otherwise.
---Josef on 3/6/16


You switched what we are talking about Luke. We are speaking of physical death not spiritual.

Where does the Bible say what you are saying?

You are correct Josef.

Job 4:17
Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/6/16


//showned these verses multiple times on 2 other postings//- john9346.

I've not been shown any verses supporting the pagan trinity. There are no verses which directly state "trinity", "God the holy spirit" or "three in one".

If you believe the Bible does or that you have previously suppied such verses you clearly suffer with delusions of grandeur.

I have posted scriptures which give clear irrefutable proof Jesus is not omniscient, he is the son of God and remains submissive to his God even after his resurrection.

The pagan trinity is not a Bible teaching. It is the teaching of the antichrist.
---David8318 on 3/6/16


Josef, you said:
"Again, my understanding is that the body they receive will be mortal, for the penalty for sin is death, and the lake of fire, is the second death.:

All people born are born dead to Christ. That is the first spiritual death. When an individual is called by God, he is spiritually born by the Spirit. At the second coming, believers will receive a new glorified body prepare for heaven. The unbeliever receives a body prepared for hell. On the day of Judgment, the unbeliever will be send to hell, where he will be punished. It is his second spiritual death, for he will be separated from God forever. This are spiritual deaths. The believer does not get the second death since he is alive to God forever.
---Luke on 3/6/16




Samuel, a soul does not need sleep. When sleep is mention, most of the times it's talking about been dead. Of course many sleep every night. The body is asleep, it is either alive or dead.
Unbelievers spirit is dead to God. Their soul is dead to God unless God calls him and makes him alive to Christ, spiritually born again.
Believers on the other hand are spiritually alive to God forever. Their soul has been saved.
---Luke on 3/6/16


Which part of 'We shall not all sleep' do you not understand? Some sleep in death prior to their resurrection, but not all sleep. Chaff as much as you want Sam, its what the Bible teaches!
---David8318

But many do sleep. But you are right not all. Those who are alive when Jesus comes will not sleep.

So your statement agrees with my understanding. Thank you. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/5/16


//We don't believe in immortal souls that live apart from the body//- Samuelbb7.

Neither do JW's.

//But the Bible says we shall sleep and be resurrected from the dead//- Sambb7

You say this in complete ignorance of what 1Cor.15:51,52 states. Chapter 15 deals specifically with the heavenly resurrection. I'll read it slowly for you:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..." (KJV).

Which part of 'We shall not all sleep' do you not understand? Some sleep in death prior to their resurrection, but not all sleep. Chaff as much as you want Sam, its what the Bible teaches!
---David8318 on 3/5/16


"Where are the wicked told and promised they will become immortal?" They are not. Samuel you obvious mistook a quote from Luke's post as my words, and that's understandable. I usually put quotes in quotation marks, but in that instant I was unable to do so because of the word limit. I apologize for the confusion.
---josef on 3/5/16


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---Nicole_Lacey on 3/4/16


Sam: "Where are the wicked told and promised they will become immortal?"

Good question! Not only will they NEVER be made immortal, but the Bible certifies that NOBODY is alive and suffering in "hell" now.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead LIVED NOT AGAIN until the thousand years were finished.



---jerry6593 on 3/5/16


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Samuel, you said:
"Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


That is very true, God can do anything He wants. He is able to send storms whenever He wants. But concerning those who are going to hell, Jesus said it would be forever. Now, I know you don't like that but those words came from His own mouth. Forever means forever. And how can they feel the pain? They need to have a body prepared for hell.
---Luke on 3/4/16


Yes Josef those who are saved will become immortal. We agree there.

Where are the wicked told and promised they will become immortal?

As I pointed out they are promised the second death and to be destroyed.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


Did you read what the word means? To live forever. We are going to live forever with the Lord. Will we have a body? Believers will have a glorified body. True, and easily documented.
Unbeliever will also receive a body, how else will they feel the pain they are going to be in? My understanding is that the torment will be mental and emotional pain. Mat 22:13 Weeping and gnashing of teeth suggest sorrow and regret.
They will get a body fit for hell, to be there forever as Jesus has told us. Luke documenting this is not so easy. Where is that located, scripturally? Again, my understanding is that the body they receive will be mortal, for the penalty for sin is death, and the lake of fire, is the second death.
---josef on 3/3/16


thank you Cluny for correcting my mistake. Yes John said it. But was it true souls being kept under an altar or an imagery to prove a point. Revelation is filled with imagery. What Altar is in Heaven?

Luke at the Second Coming all the righteous will be resurrected given new bodies and become immortal. 1 Corinthians 15. I Thessalonians 4.

The wicked are never promised immortality. They are promised the Second Death. Revelation 2:11 20:14, 21:8

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This doctrine is called conditional-ism. Look it up.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


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\\Monk Brendan you really think that GOD keeps some souls under an altar and tells them to rest or sleep?\\

It was **I** , not Brendan, who asked the specific question about the souls under the altar. (Admittedly, it's sometimes tricky to keep up with who said what here.)

But it was St. John in Revelation who said he saw them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/3/16


Samuel, you said:
"David we believe in the resurrection from the dead. We don't believe in immortal souls that live apart from the body."
What do you call those who are going to be with the Lord forever? They will be immortal.
Did you read what the word means? To live forever. We are going to live forever with the Lord. Will we have a body? Believers will have a glorified body. Unbeliever will also receive a body, how else will they feel the pain they are going to be in? They will get a body fit for hell, to be there forever as Jesus has told us.
---Luke on 3/3/16


Because David those are human terms to help us understand a Biblical concept. Which is founded on many Scripture.

On what basis do you disrespect JESUS.

John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Monk Brendan you really think that GOD keeps some souls under an altar and tells them to rest or sleep?

We believe Moses was resurrected. See Jude. Do you believe souls have physical bodies after death?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/2/16


\\We don't believe in immortal souls that live apart from the body.\\

How did Moses appear at Christ's Transfiguration? Was this a temporary resuscitation?

And how about the souls that St. John saw under the altar in Revelation?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/16


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David said, "Yet not one trinitarian can show me where such expressions as "trinity" or "God the holy spirit" or even "three in one" is specifically spoken of in the Bible!"

Luke 1:35 (KJV)And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 14:26
Matthew 1:18
and so on

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/1/16


David: "Yet not one trinitarian can show me where such expressions as "trinity" or "God the holy spirit" or even "three in one" is specifically spoken of in the Bible!"

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Anything else?



---jerry6593 on 3/1/16


Thank you John good point.

David we believe in the resurrection from the dead. We don't believe in immortal souls that live apart from the body.

I have read in the Watchtower how that the dying 144,000 are taken to heaven at death without being resurrected. Their bodies go into the ground.

But the Bible says we shall sleep and be resurrected from the dead.

David have you been Born Again?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/1/16


David8318 said, "Sambb7- you mean you and many trinitarians disagree with my point. That's unsurprising. Yet not one trinitarian can show me where such expressions as "trinity" or "God the holy spirit" or even "three in one" is specifically spoken of in the Bible!"



Sir, you have been showned these verses multiple times on 2 other postings "Advantage of Christianity and Who was Arius." we even asked you to address the verses we gave you just like on the other postings you continued to say what you are saying in this statement.
---john9346 on 2/29/16


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JW's have not changed anything or even contradict their own beliefs about the condition of the dead.
---David8318 on 2/27/16

Too bad you cannot say this about the Scriptures themselves.

You do not use any Bible except your NWT. Why not?

"The New World Translation is unique in one thing, it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine"

You have no standing in any debate starting with this false premise.

If you cannot and will not use the same Scriptures as the rest of us, we WILL NOT believe anything you say and we WILL NOT continue to answer you.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/29/16


David, the reason you do not believe in the Trinity is because you don't understand the nature and character of Jesus. He is God incarnated. As a man He depended on the Father and the Spirit. That is the Person that died on the cross. He had to be just like a human being in order to die. His body died but His Spirit did not.
You have been taught a different doctrine. When you understand that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit all three make up the One God that we worship, then you will understand. Each Person with one duty. That is what make the Trinity and you can find those passages all over the Bible, not your Bible which was created by man that had no knowledge concerning Scripture.
---Luke on 2/28/16


David: "You obviously do not believe in the resurrection."

Of course we do. According to the Bible, the resurrection is in the future - at the last day.

You obviously do not believe Christ.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


---jerry6593 on 2/28/16


//the dead are asleep. But then you changed that and say the 144,000 go to heaven at death. So you actually contradict yourself//- Sambb7.

It is clear sambb7 denies the resurrection. Yes people suffer death, and sleep in death. But has sambb7 never heard of the resurrection?

JW's have not changed anything or even contradict their own beliefs about the condition of the dead. It's sambb7's ignorance of the resurrection that leads him to draw false conclusions.

As I've posted before, 144,000 are resurrected to heaven- Re.14:1. Some sleep in death until their resurrection. But not all sleep- 1Cor.15:51,52. The rest of righteous mankind sleeping in death will receive a resurrection to a cleansed earth- the 'new earth'- 2Pe.3:13.
---David8318 on 2/27/16


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//change the nature and character of Christ//- Luke.

What does the Bible say about Christ?

Jo.10:36, "I am God's son"

Jo.14:28, "The Father is greater than I am" (NIRV)

Mt.24:36, "no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son" (NIV). Christ is not omniscient.

Col.1:15, Christ is "the firstborn of every creature" (KJ21).

Even after his resurrection, Christ is submissive to his God- Re.3:12.

Trinitarians and Luke must employ Plato's philosophy of mataphysics to change the nature of Christ using unbiblical terms 'trinity', 'three in one', and 'God the son'. Using Platonic philosophy, they say 'Jesus is the son of God, therefore he is God'.
---David8318 on 2/27/16


Sambb7- you mean you and many trinitarians disagree with my point. That's unsurprising. Yet not one trinitarian can show me where such expressions as "trinity" or "God the holy spirit" or even "three in one" is specifically spoken of in the Bible! It's trinitarians who change what the Bible teaches.

JW's have produced a Bible to stem the trinitarian attack on the Bible with their false expressions and also to restore the divine name "Jehovah" ('YHWH', Ps.83:18, look in your KJV), a name trinitarians have removed from all their Bibles because of the false trinity teaching.

Complain all you want about JW teaching, but removing God's name from the Bible is the height of blasphemy.
---David8318 on 2/26/16


//the dead are asleep//- Sambb7.

You obviously do not believe in the resurrection.

The 144,000 are resurrected to heaven- Re.14:1-4. But as 1Cor.15:51 teaches: 'We [of the heavenly resurrection] shall not all sleep... (KJV).

Thus, the Bible teaches those of the heavenly resurrection 'shall not all sleep' in death. Evidently some do, but not all. There is a point where some will be resurrected, 'in the twinkling of an eye' (15:52). JW's haven't changed anything- its what the Bible teaches.

Additionally, a 'great multitude' survive the Great Tribulation- Re.7:9,14. But unlike the 144,000, the 'great multitude' are not said to be 'born again'. Yet they receive salvation- Jo.10:16, Re.7:10.
---David8318 on 2/26/16


Samuel, you need to read the history of Charles Russell and if you had you would have read that he was learning all the doctrines E.G. While was teaching. Russell begin to believe the writing on death and hell, and he came to believe her teaching, and in 1870 organized a Bible class of six members who met for four years. He also became acquainted with N.H. Barbour of Rochester New York. Another splinter Adventist group
---Luke on 2/26/16


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Luke you have been misinformed. Russel was no friend of White. We teach the Trinity and that a person must be Born Again. Both of which Russel opposed. Also we have set a rule to never make the mistake again of setting a date for the Second Coming which as you correctly point out the JW's do.

Lastly Russel was affiliated with the First day Adventist. Not Seventh day Adventist.

Trey, Cluny we agree.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/26/16


\\To deny the Holy Ghost's position in the triune Godhead is blasphemy. It is a belief straight from the Anti-Christ.
---trey on 2/25\\

The theological name for this heresy is Pnevmatomachism--Enemies of the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/26/16


"... but the dead know not any thing"- Eccs.9:5.

According to Cluny:

//... Lazarus, Abraham, and the Rich Man sure knew something after they had died//

So, who is right? The Bible or Cluny's understanding of Luke 16:19-31? Is there a Bible contradiction as Bible basher Cluny would like us to believe?

Of course, Cluny has got it all wrong. Jesus was not contradicting Eccs.9:5. Rather, in the context of Luke 16, Jesus is using the parable of 'the rich-man and Lazarus' to show the change in fortune experienced between the Pharisees and the common people- illustrated by the rich-man and Lazarus respectively.
---David8318 on 2/26/16


Michael e: "They all claim to be bible based, but none of the three are based on the bible rightly divided."

I can't speak for the other two, but as for us SDA's, please show definitively where we are not Bible based.


---jerry6593 on 2/26/16


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Cluny, Jehovah Witnesses and SDA's have many doctrines the same. Mormons on the other hand are completely different. They have their own leader many other doctrines. Jehovah witnesses begin with Charles Russell who was buddy with E.G. White. Russell learned many things from her. From someone who I believe got hit on the head with a rock and was in a coma and later had visions. Like David, Russell did not believe in the Trinity, the reason they created their own Bible. They had to change the nature and character of Christ. Russell was like one of the preachers today who predicted the end of the world many times and nothing ever happen. I have a sister who is Jehovah Witness and she has abandoned all her friends and even the rest of the family.
---Luke on 2/26/16


1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV

1st John 5:7 clearly shows that there are 3 separate but equal persons in the Godhead.

Genesis 1:2 shows the creative work of the Holy Ghost (aka Holy Spirit).

John 14 speaks of the Comforter (Holy Ghost) and his work in giving us understanding and comfort.

Titus 3:5 tells us of the Holy Spirit's work in our new birth.

To deny the Holy Ghost's position in the triune Godhead is blasphemy. It is a belief straight from the Anti-Christ.
---trey on 2/25/16


David....LOL.....their Bible which they wrote.
---KarenD on 2/26/16


David I and many disagree with your point. I use mostly the King James sometimes the New American Standard, New King James.

The JW's had to have their own bible translated to get their doctrines in the bible.

Now you and I agree that the dead are asleep. But then you changed that and say the 144,000 go to heaven at death. So you actually contradict yourself based on your leaders say so.

The you teach that you don't have to be born again. A direct contradiction of what Jesus says.

So no you don't base your doctrine on the Bible.

As an SDA I get accused of this for a different reason. But to those who have read my words. I use the Bible only.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/26/16


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'based on the bible'- michael_e.

On the contrary, JW's base their beliefs completely on the Bible.

If you want religions that teach what is false, look no further than orthodoxy, the RCC and protestant/anglican religions who all each "the trinity".

No one from these false religions can show me from the Bible where expressions such as 'trinity', 'God the holy spirit' or 'incarnation' can be found. Indeed, trinitarians are not Bible based.

On the other hand, JW beliefs are supported by scripture.
---David8318 on 2/25/16


\\Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
\\

According to Jesus, Lazarus, Abraham, and the Rich Man sure knew something after they had died.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/16


//What do Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and SDAs have in common?//
They all claim to be bible based, but none of the three are based on the bible rightly divided.
---michael_e on 2/25/16


Good point Luke.

Also how many times do people get down on their knees and beg their friends to pray for them.

Cluny thank you for the correction on merits not grace.

To ask our friends to pray to Jesus for us. Is not the same as praying for others to pray for us.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/25/16


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"But the saints can pray for you, just like your friends pray for you when you need God's help.''

When you say saints pray for you, you could not possibly mean those who have died. The sons of God are the saints. And those who are alive today can pray for you, since we are called to pray for each other.
If you are speaking of saints as to Paul and many who have died, they do not hear your prayers, they are dead physically and spiritually they are with the Lord. They do not look down on us and say, "oh look at the Monk, he is having trouble, lets pray for him so that
God can help him." First of all God hears all our prayers, second He does not need the help of anyone.
---Luke on 2/25/16


monk: While I agree that our intercessory prayers to God on behalf of others is effective, I don't agree that we can talk to dead people, since:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.



---jerry6593 on 2/24/16


Jerry said, " monk: Isn't talking to dead people considered necromancy which is forbidden by the Bible?"

Conjuring up the souls of the dead is necromancy. However, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches believe that there are people in heaven, and that they may intercede for you.

Yes, there is ONE intercessor between God and Man, and that is the God/Man Jesus Christ.

But the saints can pray for you, just like your friends pray for you when you need God's help.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/24/16


Luke, to pray for someone is to intercede for him or her.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/16


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"Satan's servant"- aservant.

Being called satanic by a perfidous pagan polytheist trinitarian has a certain ring of emptiness to it. Perhaps the same effect was had on Christ, when the same was charged against him by apostates in his day who said:

"the Pharisees said: 'This fellow [Jesus] does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons'"- Mt.12:24.

Appears false religious zealots and aservant have a habit of calling Christians "satanic". But its to be expected. As Jesus said:

"And you will be hated by all people on account of my name"- Mk.13:13.

Thank you aservant for highlighting my Christian credentials.
---David8318 on 2/23/16


We go to God the Father when we sin, not the Son. The Son is our Advocate. He stands on our side. Only He can stand on our behave. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins.
All believers pray to the Father. When we confess our sin against another, it is done so that we can reconcile with those we have hurt. They don't have to forgive us if they don't want to. But we have done the right thing. A priest is not our Advocate. Jesus Christ is.
---Luke on 2/23/16


\\Lastly we like many Protestants don't believe anyone can truly intercede for us but Jesus our Only High Priest. \\

Cluny, you answered with: "If you really believed that, you would not ask your friends to pray for you."

We are not asking others to pray for us because we believe they are interceding for us, we ask them because God tells us to pray for each other. When we confess our sins to the Father, Jesus Christ intercedes for us.
"...And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 john 2:1
Jesus does not tell us to go to a priest and that he will intercede for us. We have One Advocate, Jesus Christ.
---Luke on 2/23/16


\\But the RCC used to teach that the saints have by their works built up a repository of grace that the church can use to get people out of purgatory. We cannot agree on that.\\

That's not the Orthodox teaching. BTW, the proper RC term is "treasury of merits," not "repository of grace."

\\Lastly we like many Protestants don't believe anyone can truly intercede for us but Jesus our Only High Priest. \\

If you really believed that, you would not ask your friends to pray for you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/16


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cluny: "And just who do you think was the first to preach the return of Christ? We confess it thrice daily in the full cycle of services."

Well then, according to your logic, you are like the JW's, LDS and SDA's.


"And none of these are doctrinal or historical."

But they are true, aren't they?



---jerry6593 on 2/23/16


monk: Isn't talking to dead people considered necromancy which is forbidden by the Bible?



---jerry6593 on 2/23/16


I understand your viewpoint.

Monk Brendan

But Seventh day Adventist like most Protestant are iconoclasts. So we have a basic different of understanding there.

Now it has been awhile but correct me if my memory is wrong. I don't have the time to look it up. But the RCC used to teach that the saints have by their works built up a repository of grace that the church can use to get people out of purgatory. We cannot agree on that.

Also we understand the Saints to be asleep in the grave and unable to hear prayers.

Lastly we like many Protestants don't believe anyone can truly intercede for us but Jesus our Only High Priest.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/23/16


Karen D said, " Monk_Brendan.....HOGWASH! The church which Christ put on this earth did not include idols and praying to dead people."

HOGWASH! yourself! Neither Catholics nor Orthodox have anything to do with idols. I am not speaking of statues or icons, because they are venerated, not worshiped which means that any honor which we give to the icon goes to the prototype (person), and not to the wood or marble.

Nor do we pray TO dead people. We ask the aid of the saints--those people we know are in heaven--to pray for us, just as you would ask the people in your church to pray for you for something you need.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/22/16


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\\I suggested some 12-15 similarities between Catholic/Orthodox and Muslims,\\

And none of these are doctrinal or historical.

\\ and that one (the second coming) is held by all real Christians\\

And just who do you think was the first to preach the return of Christ? We confess it thrice daily in the full cycle of services.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/16


Monk_Brendan.....HOGWASH! The church which Christ put on this earth did not include idols and praying to dead people.
---KarenD on 2/22/16


cluny: The Baptist Miller had followers from ALL Protestant and Catholic denominations - maybe even some from the Orthodox. Unless of course you Orthodox don't believe in the second coming of Christ.

I suggested some 12-15 similarities between Catholic/Orthodox and Muslims, but you've only come up with one for SDA, JW and LDS - and that one (the second coming) is held by all real Christians. What's the matter? Does the truth hurt?



---jerry6593 on 2/22/16


Cluny you know better than that about SDA.

Our church was brought together on doctrine through numerous Bible conferences. Our doctrine is based on the Bible. Which we show when we discuss why we believe what we do by using the Bible only. Plus our recorded History. Plus White demands we are to base all our doctrine on the Bible alone.

Russel did not have visions. He based his work on some Bible study groups. Then on his authority as the only true teacher of the Bible.

I have never seen where he was in the millerite movement. But was involved for a time in the First Adventist church.

Please check your history. You usually do very good there. Don't let your prejudice harm your scholarship.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/22/16


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JW, LDS, and SDA are all based on revelations from ONE person (other than Jesus) who felt that, contrary to Christ's promise, the Church had lapsed and had to be reinvented.

Also, Charles Russell of the JWs was a participant at one time in the Millerite movement.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/16


Karen said, " All three cults say that everyone else is wrong and they have restored the true gospel."

The original Church--the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, have held the Gospel (the Good News) inviolate for two millenia.

It was Luther and Calvin who "rediscovered" it 500 years ago.

Islam has never claimed to be the Good News of Jesus Christ. It is a demonic imitation of religion.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/22/16


\\Where we have had difficulty is with Calvinist who demand we teach the impeccability of Jesus. \\

Do you mean to say that SDAs believe that Jesus is NOT impeccable?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/16


Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism are two branches of the original Church of believers that was begun on Pentecost.

Our beliefs are quite similar, including belief in
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father,

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Muslims believe none of these things!
---Monk_Brendan on 2/20/16


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\\What do Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam have in common?\\

What's the matter, jerry?

You mean you didn't like the answers you got when you started a blog on this very question?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/16


All three cults say that everyone else is wrong and they have restored the true gospel.
---KarenD on 2/21/16


Not much.

What do Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam have in common?


---jerry6593 on 2/20/16


Thank you Monk Brendan.

Our doctrine is based on the Bible. I know some in our church have erred in assigning to much authority to E.G. White. But that has never been the church position. Nor hers. She always upheld the Bible as the final authority. And Jesus as the son of GOD.

Where we have had difficulty is with Calvinist who demand we teach the impeccability of Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/16


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The SDA which came together in 1863 had multiple leaders and founders. It used the King James Bible as it's foundation. Unlike the other two we are and have always been since our founding Trinitarian.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/18/16

I have never considered SDA to be a cult.

SDAs agree with other Christians on who Jesus is.

However, our unity must include what determines our understanding of who Jesus is.

This is where the influence of EGW is very troublesome.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/19/16


Samuel BB said, " Well it seems that someone is determined to call the SDA church a cult."

Don't feel bad, Samuel. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been called cults for centuries.

It happens to the best of us.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/19/16


Well it seems that someone is determined to call the SDA church a cult.

A little History. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints. Centered around Joseph Smith and his golden tablets. In the 1820's. Please at least read about them in wikipedia.

Charles Taze Russel started the JW in the 1870's. The JW name was not adopted till 1931.

The LDS put the writing of their founder above scripture. The JW have their leaders who tell them what is truth. Using their own translation of the Bible.

The SDA which came together in 1863 had multiple leaders and founders. It used the King James Bible as it's foundation. Unlike the other two we are and have always been since our founding trinitarian.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/18/16


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