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Who Was 12th Disciple

Did Jesus choose someone to replace Judas as a twelfth disciple?

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 ---Geraldine on 2/26/16
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"Goyim" and "Ethos", on the other hand, trav and I are of differing sides.
---micha9344 on 4/11/16

We probably shouldn't be. I don't have all the answers to every use of these terms but, the foundation of supporting scripture is weighty.
It is important for me to keep in mind that Israels position was as a servant, wife, she Israel was called over sixty names from vine to a sheep. For ever and everlasting are two immovable foundation stone words and promises.
1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

A servant is not something everyone is happy to be.
Mar_10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
---Trav on 4/12/16


Trav ...I have done neither of these things.
Jesus reached out to non Jews.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/8/16

Balaam's disciple without realizing it, in fear, and chosen ignorance about Israel you project/protect your doctrines of men, nullifying all Israel.
Yes, Christ reached out to non Judeans, called the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel". Judeans 1/12th of Israel, never called "lost".
A "light" to many non Israel "ethnos", in the way to live, prosper and be blessed.
Deu_32:9 For the LORD'S portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
2Sa_7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: thou, LORD, art become their God.
---Trav on 4/11/16


Trav never claimed that only Jews go to Heaven.
Yours is culturally based, his is scripturally based.
"Goyim" and "Ethos", on the other hand, trav and I are of differing sides.
---micha9344 on 4/11/16

It is not totally clear or everyone would see it. Took me 40 years...but, I'm slow as Moses, and far worse sinner.
Interesting that Christ never denied being a Samaritan, for example.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil, ...

Living in Galilee he could be called that...Judah being 1/13th of Israel would be correct also. The Nth House of Israel resided in Samaria.
---Trav on 4/11/16


Trav never claimed that only Jews go to Heaven.
Once you have terms defined and used them in unity, things become clear.
You and Trav are using "Jew" with 2 different definitions.
He seems to know yours, but you still don't know his.
Yours is culturally based, his is scripturally based.
"Goyim" and "Ethos", on the other hand, trav and I are of differing sides.
---micha9344 on 4/11/16


Trav, you are still preaching that only Jews are going to heaven. Or only those from Judah are going to heaven. But to this day they have not come to Christ. They are still lost. Now only the remnant from Israel has come to Christ. And there is another remnant that comes from all those who put their faith in Christ Jesus, no matter from where they come from. Jesus said:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matt. 28:19.
---Luke on 4/10/16




A little background for everyone.
The nation of Israel, which was 10 tribes separated from the nation of Judah after Solomon had passed, were dispersed throughout the known world by Assyria and never became a nation again.
The nation of Judah, which included the tribe of Benjamin, was also conquered but the nation kept itself in the midst of Babylon and was the remnant that returned to Jerusalem. The rest of Judah either died or were dispersed as well.
Samaria, Israel's capital for a time, was also the country of the Samaritans, "half-breeds" of Israel and looked down upon by Jews (a derogatory name given by the Babylonians to the people of Judah which stuck).
So, non-Jews could still be of Israel by heredity.
---micha9344 on 4/8/16


Trav by your own words I have done neither of these things.

The truth that all can come to Jesus is my teaching. I posted many verses that show non Jews have been wooed and accepted into Israel. You don't explain a single one of these verses.

Jesus reached out to non Jews.

All who love GOD and love their Neighbor are the true Israel. Ancestry does not make a person and Israelite.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 12:20
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

Greeks who were converts wanted to see Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/8/16


Trav.
Balam sold the truth for money.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/7/16

You sir claim to replace Israel, yet you either do not understand their scriptures or mangle them to your own weak doctrines. Yes, by marks and sign you are Balaam-ish in seeking to nullify Israel.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
---Trav on 4/7/16


Trav:

I never said Judah WASN'T Judah. I was speaking of the word "Jew", which is a different word. That word is currently used by everyone in the world (including the Jews themselves) to represent EVERYONE descending from Israel, regardless of their tribe. This was also the case in Judea of the New Testament, because Paul said in Christ there was no Jew nor Greek - He did NOT say there was no Israelite nor Greek, nor did he say there was no Jew nor Israelite nor Greek.

If you don't like my logic coming to this conclusion, you don't like Paul's scripture either.
---StrongAxe on 4/7/16


Remember Jesus Christ received non Jews and in fact complimented one for greater faith.
So again why are these verses lies?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/7/16

The verses don't lie, your doctrines do.
Since you fear to put the scriptures you are referencing, are you speaking of the woman Christ called a Daughter or one he called a Dog.
The woman at the well was called a Samaritan...but her father Jacob dug the well. She wasn't Judean. She wasn't Samaritan...she was Israel. A Sheep that Christ recognized.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Sheep not being your doctrine, and why you do not see "all" (thousands)of scriptures pertaining to them)
---Trav on 4/7/16




Trav. Balam sold the truth for money. Following Jesus Christ has never made me money.

Nations and peoples means non Jews so I am not dependent on the word Gentile.

That is you. You have to ignore the call to all people. Remember Jesus Christ received non Jews and in fact complimented one for greater faith.

So again why are these verses lies?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/7/16


Trav:
Or am I missing something here?
Amo_9:9
As I have said multiple times, because Israel was scattered among the nations, there was very little of them left, aside from Judah ...
---StrongAxe on 4/6/16

I find what you are missing is admitting that scripture is right and your logic is faulty. Common. Most common in preachers/teacher/denoms.

Judah is Judah. All the other Sons/tribes have their own names, their own prophecys. You prefer your way? GOD didn't. But, go ahead don't let truth get in your way.
Gen_49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
---Trav on 4/7/16


Trav:

You wrote: I don't believe I've ever said Israel was better.

Yet you keep saying (unless your wording is unclear and I have misinterpreted it), that Judah rejected Christ, while Israel accepted him (which would, indeed, make Israel better). Or am I missing something here?

Amo_9:9

As I have said multiple times, because Israel was scattered among the nations, there was very little of them left, aside from Judah - so the term Jew, originally reserved for only the tribe of Judah, was used collectively to describe ALL the tribes together - both by the Jews, and by others.
---StrongAxe on 4/6/16


The history of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah,...Judah actually had 2 good kings). But NONE say Israel was BETTER.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/16

I don't believe I've ever said Israel was better. Israel was worse. She was "Divorced", "Put-away" first of the two kingdoms. "Scattered" to all the nations.
She was also promised a "messiah". "Redemption", "remarriage" covenant.
She will be found as a "servant"...not better.
Amo_9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
---Trav on 4/6/16


Isiah 49:6
...restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the (nations/ethnos),...
Acts 13:47
...a light of the (nations/ethnos), ....
Why are these Bible verses false?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/2/16

The only thing false is the word "gentile". It was never uttered by Christ any prophet or Apostle. It is foundational to your false doctrines.
World has experienced the light of Israel's covenanted blessings and promises. Yourself for instance. You presume you've replaced them and teach or preach this. Balaam's error on your part.
Jud_1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
---Trav on 4/5/16


Isiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Why are these Bible verses false?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/2/16


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Trav:
None of the scriptures you mentioned said ANYTHING AT ALL about Judah rejecting Christ, while the rest of Israel accepted him.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/16

Yeah...forgive comment. I remember not seeing it. Reason and reciprocate "sheep-like" as well. Ask Christ.
His own was Judah.
Joh_1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The stated mission of Christ and Apostles below.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Lost Sheep/North House of Israel being sought. Judah rejected, divorced Nth House of Israel didn't reject...therefore....
---Trav on 4/1/16


I will pray for you stronax. Your correct but are not being listened too.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/1/16


Trav:

You wrote: so you've been texting at the wheel again. Focus

A totally irrelevent ad-hominem attack. Please un-lower it a notch?

The divorced/scattered Northern House of Ten recognized...and accepted.

None of the scriptures you mentioned said ANYTHING AT ALL about Judah rejecting Christ, while the rest of Israel accepted him. Do you know any, because I don't.

The history of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and their kings, showed that Israel was totally corrupt, and Judah was almost (but not quite) as bad (i.e. Judah actually had 2 good kings). But NONE say Israel was BETTER.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/16


Trav:
The divorced/scattered Northern House of Ten recognized...and accepted.
Really? And where did you get this from? I don't recall any scriptures saying this.
---StrongAxe on 3/30/16

Recall? Ahhhh, so you've been texting at the wheel again. Focus, 1+1=2 houses.
God separated the nation of Israel. 1 Kings 11:30, God speaking northern 10 tribes who retain the name House of Israel (See Heb 8:8). Judah and one other became the Southern Kingdom. Note also: Jer 3:8...backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah ... played the harlot also.
Jer_33:14 ...I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Cont'd...
---Trav on 3/31/16


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Trav:
The divorced/scattered Northern House of Ten recognized...and accepted.
...I don't recall any scriptures saying this.
---StrongAxe on 3/30/16

Cont'd:
No one has ever pointed to the pertinent scriptures out to you SAxe. I was 40 before someone pointed. This "someone" prophets over-ruled my logic/doctrine.
If one believes GOD and his prophets.
Eze_37:22 ...and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Again see Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31.
Eze_39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel, I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
---Trav on 3/31/16


Trav:

All of the Apostles were Jews,...
---StrongAxe on 3/30/16

Your statement has no foundation, except doctrine of man/strongaxe.
Scriptures do not give each Apostles heritage, other than Paul a self proclaimed Benjamite. Matt may have been a Levite.
I theorize each Apostle most likely represents his heritage house/tribe of Israel. As they will each be judging a specific tribe of Israel.

Luk_22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, had twelve gates, at the gates twelve angels, names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
---Trav on 3/31/16


Trav:

You wrote: The Nation of Judah rejected Christ, 1/12th of Israel.

Only partially true, although not totally true. All of the Apostles were Jews, as were most of Jesus's early followers, at least until Christianity spread into Asia Minor.

The divorced/scattered Northern House of Ten recognized...and accepted.

Really? And where did you get this from? I don't recall any scriptures saying this.
---StrongAxe on 3/30/16


...I believe that Trav will find every passage concerning the prophets...The nation of Israel reject God. Still does.
...
---Luke on 3/23/16

The Nation of Judah rejected Christ, 1/12th of Israel.
The divorced/scattered Northern House of Ten recognized...and accepted. Otherwise you wouldn't be free to twist the scriptures into doctrines you can't even understand.
You don't claim to be of any 12th part of Israel but, you feel confident that you can replace them all and butcher their prophecies and scripture to your own ends. Brave or foolish?
Amo_9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
---Trav on 3/29/16


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Michael the verse you posted suggests there will only be 12 apostles.

Good points.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/28/16


Cluny, what does Jesus teach about the apostolic succession of Bishops?

Michael e, please Read the following verses after 28 and notice verse 30 in which Jesus is still answering Peter's question and states "But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

"IF you continue in My Word, then you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free." John 8:30-32.

The eleven disciples went into Galilee to meet Jesus and "they worshipped Him but some doubted." Matt 28:16-17.
---barb on 3/27/16


//\\If it was necessary that there always be twelve disciples then it would stand to reason that after the death of each disciple we would see the election of a new one. Where are they today? \\
The twelve including Matthias, are waiting for Christ to set up his kingdom
The twelve apostles will possess authority over the twelve tribes of Israel
Matt 19:27 "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore?" 28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
---michael_e on 3/27/16


\\If it was necessary that there always be twelve disciples then it would stand to reason that after the death of each disciple we would see the election of a new one. Where are they today? \\

This is what is called Apostolic Succession.

Their successors are the Bishops of the Orthodox Church.
---Cluny on 3/25/16


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Samuel, good points you give. I believe that Trav will find every passage concerning the prophets and since we all know they spoke about the coming Christ, and the nation of Israel. There is no more prophets other the Jesus Christ. The nation of Israel reject God. Still does.
"For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did, but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith"

There is many Jews today that are coming to Christ. Which is what we should pray for. God used the nation of Israel to show the world how easy sinners sin against God and how gracious and merciful God is.
---Luke on 3/23/16


...Jesus told them that because they rejected him the Kingdom would be given to others.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16

These "others" in Matt all prophets, GOD and Christ declare is the ten divorced/put-away "nations" of the Northern House of Israel. Judah never equals all thirteen promised/covenanted sons...ever. No prophet, Christ or GOD declares a "new commission". Yet by your misunderstanding and false doctrine make a sandy stand on mistranslated scripture. Christ fulfilled all the prophets said.
You are fulfilling the negative prophecies by preaching dangerously unenlightened doctrines of men.
Jer_23:1,2 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
---Trav on 3/23/16


Strongaxe, concerning the Bible. Of course God did not write it. He is Spirit. He inspired the writers to write what they wrote. He also inspired the prophets to say what they said, sometimes not knowing what it meant. But you need to have faith in God. Not in the things of the world. Don't put down the Bible. Remember Romans 1:20,21,
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened"
---Luke on 3/19/16


I apologize if I have missed some of your bible verses.

I have covered the Hebrews and Jeremiah verses as showing the Church is Israel. What I have the problem on Matthew is that you have taken them out of context and have ignored the modifying your verses.

Matthew 28:19 shows the new commission since the Jewish nation rejected Jesus. Jesus told them that because they rejected him the Kingdom would be given to others.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


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Trav. But you have not given scripture or places that show you are correct. I am asking for proof. Not statements.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16

But, sir I have posted scripture for months/yrs. You prefer your doctrines over prophets or scripture.
Start here Heb8:8/Jer 31:31. Tie with Matt 10:6/15:24.
All prophets are speaking to Israel...either house or Both.
You choose Paul, who confuses you. Even he refers to the prophets you avoid.
Rom_9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Which is Hosea 2:23. Hosea is about Israel...divorced and to be remarried.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall...:
---Trav on 3/15/16


micha, you said:
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
-How many idle words can we say before we are condemned?
-Is the justification of which Jesus spoke the same as the justification of which Paul spoke?
-Are our words going to condemn us eternally?"


The passage is speaking of words against the Holy Spirit. The context shows that is what Jesus is talking about. Just look at (v.32,)
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son Of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come"
---Luke on 3/6/16


Let's see if Luke says he is not an eyewitness of Jesus > it looks to me like Luke is passing on what came to him through eyewitnesses.

And this includes that Peter and the eleven and others were involved in selecting the replacement for Judas.

Then Paul became Apostle number 13 (c: May be, this is why people in Satan's kingdom have a natural way of cursing the number 13 > it was "bad luck" for Satan and his kingdom! (c:
---Bill on 3/5/16


Yes Barb. Which is why I needed time and to ask some question to ask before I could answer.
Micha also speaks on this point.

To understand a verse we need to know who is spoken too. Why are they saying what these words. What is their point. To understand others we must know what they believe the words mean.

First in Matthew 12:37 Jesus is speaking in my understanding of how our actions show us saved or lost. The words are our action.

Paul in Romans 3 is discussing how a person is saved and our relationship to the law.

Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament. Some Bibles show this others don't.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/5/16


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/Compare Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28 and Romans 5:9 to Matthew 12:37\-barb on 3/3/16
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
-How many idle words can we say before we are condemned?
-Is the justification of which Jesus spoke the same as the justification of which Paul spoke?
-Are our words going to condemn us eternally?
I think Jesus said it best: Mark 16:16
---micha9344 on 3/4/16


barb:

Since you are splitting hairs (e.g. saying some parts of the Bible, e.g. Paul's, arent "God's words", we must examine what "God's words" actually means.

Technically, none of the Bible is actually God's words, since he didn't write any of it. Even Jesus did not pen a single word in the Bible.

What we have, instead, is the words of prophets and apostles - those who claimed to speak for God, and those who claimed to have seen Jesus preach. Even in cases of "Thus saith the LORD", we only have words of alleged eyewitnesses allegedly quoting words of alleged prophets allegedly speaking for God. So if you want to be precise and exclude Paul's words, you must similarly qualify everyone else's.
---StrongAxe on 3/3/16


Samuelbb7, am I to presume that you wrote out the verses I gave, prayed for guidance, studied them side by side and found them to be in complete agreement? Or like Luke do you think I have taken them out of context? Whose words have I taken out of context, Paul's or God's and how so? Please explain.

Luke, my gripe is with lies disguised as truth and running amuck around the sheepfold.
---barb on 3/3/16


barb, I have read the passages and they do not contradict each other as you say. You are missing the context of each message. And interpreting something not there to begin with. You should read them again.
I believe I heard you some time back speaking against Paul. you had a grip towards him for some reason. Are you bias towards Paul? I find nothing wrong with what he says. The only part that seems to contradict is when he speaks of works and so does James. But even those passage have to be read in the right context of the message.
---Luke on 3/3/16


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Yes Barb I have. I was an agnostic. I rejected most who tried to convert me since they could not tell me why should I believe the Bible to be true.

When I finally meet some who could show me that I studied. I studied to not only see if the Bible was true but if what the SDA taught was true. I read books by those who opposed the SDA. I talked to those and still do who oppose what I came to accept after 2 years of study as truth. But I did not quit there. I still study and listen to others. I just ask that they show me from the Bible where I am wrong. Or where they are right.

Trav. you are saying these things. But you have not given scripture or places that show you are correct. I am asking for proof. Not statements.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


Well Barb and Trav ...I am asking you to show me.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16

Regroup a minute. Your misinterpreting of Paul contradicts Christ. Not understanding what/who Paul is referring to for instance in Romans context of which is about the Nth House of "Ten" and the Sth House of Judah. The "Ethnos"/Nations" are Israel for most uses. Church-ianity corrupted Israel's scripture with a new translated word "gentile" that Christ, paul or any apostle never used. It is never found in any original manuscript. Leaving the question, who are these ethnos/nations. The best to answer this are the OT prophets...of Israel. Who Christ fulfilled. Paul references them and the modern church doesn't.
---Trav on 3/3/16


Samuelbb7, have you ever sincerely searched and compared the scriptures to see if what you believe is true? Jesus said to search and you will find, to ask and you will receive and to knock and it shall be opened unto you.

Comparing verses and chapters is really something that each person need do on their own but I will trust that you are sincere and will give you a few chapters and verses out of many to compare for yourself.

Compare Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28 and Romans 5:9 to Matthew 12:37, compare Romans 10:4-6 to Matthew 5:17-19 and then Ephesians 4:11-12 to Matthew 23:8-12.
---barb on 3/3/16


Well Barb and Trav you have stated Paul contradicts Jesus.

Show me where chapter and verse and how.

Now I know some modern Christian doctrines say Paul contradicts Jesus. But since I find that to be false I am asking you to show me.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


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...Paul does contradict Jesus and there is a lot of information ...easily found by those searching for truth.
---barb on 3/2/16

Many and myself agree with you.
I notice that most modern day sincere christians, here as example will mostly utilize what they think Paul is saying. Rarely are Christ's own words used, and even more rarely are they confirmed with the prophets words.
Paul, ...is using the prophets for witness to his words at times that explain his positions. Here for example:
Rom_9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved. Meaning Nth House of Israel/divorced.

"Osee" being Hosea. Which few bother to confirm with.
---Trav on 3/2/16


StrongAxe, most people don't agree with me for sure but that's ok. My goal is not to cause friction but to encourage people to think for and be honest with themselves.

I just want to say that I believe Paul does contradict Jesus and there is a lot of information out there which can be easily found by those searching for truth.

Thanks for the civil and intelligent conversation.

---barb on 3/2/16


Peter explains that Judas betrayal and death was a fulfillment of prophecy (Acts 1:16-18)
Peter explains his office needs to be replaced according to prophecies (Acts 1:19-20).
The method of choosing the twelfth apostle was that which God instructed Israel in time past (Lev 16:8, Pro 16:33).
There are twelve apostle to possess authority over twelve tribes of Israel (Acts 1:26, Matt 19:28)
The church, the boC, composed of Jew and Gentile doesn't have twelve tribes.
When the Bible talks about twelve tribes, it isn't talking about the church of one body (Rom 12:5, Eph 4:4).
---michael_e on 3/2/16


barb:

Yes, Paul tought some things Jesus never taught, but there's nothing wrong with that. Jesus himself said that his followers would do greater things than he did, because he was going to his father.

People who host internet blogs (like these) also make rules about what one can and cannot post - i.e. rules Jesus never taught. There's nothing wrong with that either.

The problem would NOT be teaching things Jesus never taught - only things that contradicted what Jesus taught. Did Paul do that?

Yes, I believe the bible contains truth and lies.

OK. I just wanted us all to be clear what you believe about this. I think you'll find that most of the people on this blog don't agree with you on this point.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/16


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StrongAxe, let me ask you, did Paul stay within the teachings of Jesus or did he go beyond it?

Yes, I believe the bible contains truth and lies. Jesus testified to the Truth (John 18:37) and I believe as He states in John 8:31-32 that it is the truth that sets us free from lies. Jesus gave us His Testimony/words so that those who are willing can see the truth before the harvest, just as His servants in Matt 13 see lies growing together with the wheat before it has ripened.

God did not keep the Serpent out of the Garden and He tested Israel. (Duet 13:1-4) so what exempts us from testing?
---barb on 3/1/16


Jesus mentions the phrase born again in his ministry to Israel. They already had a long history with God and were Gods people for centuries.
Israel was born unto God when they were delivered from Egypt They also had a covenant with God to prove they were Gods people. (Exodus 4:22)
After years of breaking the covenant with God, Israel was in no shape to enter their covenanted kingdom. Being born a Jew in the flesh was not sufficient:(Matt 3:9)
Israel needed to be born a second time with the Spirit to fulfill their covenants.
(Ezekiel 36:24-28)
The first covenant couldn't provide what the new covenant would through the Spirit. All who received the Spirit at Pentecost would be part of that born again nation of Israel.
---michael_e on 3/1/16


barb:

Yet you dismiss Luke's account, so obviously you consider it to be untrue - i.e. Luke's writings are not of the same caliber of writing as other divinely inspired scripture. So whether you keep them within the same covers or not, do you similarly discount the validity of Genesis, and Paul's epistles? And, if not, why not?

They are all there for a reason and Jesus said to let them grow together until harvest time. We are told in Matt 13:37-43 that it will be He who shall gather and burn the tares.

You actually believe the Bible contains both truth and error, and we don't know until the Final Judgment which is which?
---StrongAxe on 3/1/16


Luke was not an eyewitness disciple of Jesus. Luke was a convert of Paul.
---barb on 2/28/16

And Mark was a convert of Peter, also not one of the 12 chosen by Jesus.

But that does not mean they were not eyewitnesses.

According to tradition, Luke and Mark were both of the 70 disciples sent out by Jesus in Luke 10.

You must consider that there were women that traveled with Jesus. Peter had a wife, Mary the mother of Jesus was always around, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James were all eyewitnesses.

And do not forget the brothers of Jesus, Joseph, James, Simon, and Jude. These men were also eyewitnesses.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/29/16


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Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
barb, to whom do you think John is referring here?
Surely not Judas.
So, there must have been twelve other than Judas.
This goes against your previous posts.
Unless you do believe that Judas has part in heaven.
But, then, that goes against other scripture.
---micha9344 on 2/29/16


StrongAxe, I don't think we should rip anything out of the bible anymore then we should rip the tares out of the world. They are all there for a reason and Jesus said to let them grow together until harvest time. We are told in Matt 13:37-43 that it will be He who shall gather and burn the tares.

My source for Truth is the Law and the Prophets (including Genesis) and the Testimony of Jesus given to us from His eyewitness disciples. We are warned by the apostle John not to go beyond the teaching of God's Son. 2nd John 8-11. Also see John 12:44-50.
---barb on 2/29/16


barb:

So, are you telling us that we should rip Luke, and everything else he wrote, out of the Bible, merely because he was not an eyewitness? In that case, shouldn't we then also tear out everything written by Paul, because he wasn't an eyewitness either? And how about Genesis, while we're at it, since Moses didn't witness anything before the exodus either?

If you assume that writings are inspired, merely because they weren't written by direct eye-witnesses, then half your bible is rubbish. Which parts of it do you actually believe?
---StrongAxe on 2/29/16


Strongaxe, it was Luke who wrote Acts. It was Luke who said that the apostles drew lots for a 12th disciple. Luke was not an eyewitness disciple of Jesus. Luke was a convert of Paul. Luke was not there when Jesus sent out His 11 disciples. Matt 28:16-20.

Read for yourself how after His resurrection Jesus sent 11 disciples out to all nations to preach and teach His testimony. He did not say one word to them about His need or choice for a replacement of the 12th apostle, although it would have been the perfect opportunity for Him to let His choice be known.
---barb on 2/28/16


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Trey, 13th apostle? Paul claims "I magnify my office". So Paul is proclaiming and increasing himself as the 13th apostle?

The disciples that Jesus chose belonged to His Father and were given to Him. John 17:6. They belonged to His Father because they kept His commandments and they recognized the Son because they had learned about the Father. John 6:45.
---barb on 2/28/16


Geraldine and barb:

Since Scott1 and Cluny both mentioned this, but people still don't seem to get it:

Acts 1:23-26 says the apostles appointed Barsabas and Matthias, prayed to God, then:
26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/16


Ac 1:26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (KJV)

The Apostle Paul was number 13.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (KJV)
---trey on 2/28/16


Maybe that position of 12th disciple became reserved for all those of us who accepted Christ after his resurrection. I would love to see myself as one of many twelfth disciples!
---Geraldine on 2/27/16


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Micha9344, my answer would be that neither Jesus nor His eyewitness disciples ever mention a twelfth disciple being voted in.

If it was necessary that there always be twelve disciples then it would stand to reason that after the death of each disciple we would see the election of a new one. Where are they today?

The purpose of Jesus' eyewitness disciples was to hear His testimony, hear the words and the truth He taught, to live it and to teach it to others. John 15:26-27, John 17:6-26, Matt 28:16-20, John 14:23-31. His disciples recorded and wrote down His testimony for those who love the truth.
---barb on 2/27/16


I would like to see barb's answer, since she doesn't believe Luke to be an inspired writer.
---micha9344 on 2/27/16


They drew lots between two people. The story is told in Acts CH 2.
---Scott1 on 2/26/16


He worked through the Apostles and a sacred lot to appoint Matthias to replace Judas.

it's in the first chapter of Acts.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/26/16


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