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Belief New Birth Baptism

Biblically speaking, in what order should these events take place: Baptism, Belief, and the New Birth?

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Luke, sorry but it is you who doesn't understand. I believe the Word of God EXACTLY how it is stated. As I showed in Ephesians 1, Paul has clearly laid the foundation. You can throw any scripture out there you want and say it means this or that, however if it is not built upon a foundation, as we see Ephesians 1 clearly state that foundation, then you are teaching a false doctrine. You also misrepresent the meaning of BORN AGAIN. And that is why your doctrine is founded in your misunderstanding of the new birth that comes ONLY when one is crucified with Christ and raised a New Creature. That does not happen BEFORE anyone even hears the Gospel. We are born again by the WORD OF GOD AS James clearly states as well.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/16


Mark Eaton. I've encountered others who also follow the same error doctrine that David follows.

Most of them claim that they believe that eventually they will attain a perfect lifestyle, and that up till then they go through periods of success and then failure.

One I debated claimed that he was perfect (like David here on CN) but then his abusiveness proved otherwise.

They claim that one is not righteous unless perfect obedience to the law is consistently maintained.

These legalists resort to obfuscation to hide their legalism, and they also suggest others are unrighteous unless they maintain perfect obedience to the law.
---Haz27 on 3/22/16


Kath, I am sorry you do not understand sometimes what you say. Look, No one is saved without the gospel. God uses His Word to save individuals. But His word goes out to many. Only those He calls the Holy Spirit gives them a new birth. Once they come to live they can see hear and perceive the truth of the gospel.
All others who are perishing, to them the message of the cross is foolishness.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us, who are being saved it is the power of God" 1 Cor. 1:18.
---Luke on 3/23/16


Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/16


Mark Eaton. To put it another way, Christians cannot be charged with sin (Rom 8:33) because "whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT".

As Christians are NOT under law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18) we cannot be charged with it's transgression (sin, 1john 3:4). We're not under the jurisdiction of the law in determining our righteousness. Instead it's our faith that's counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

That's why 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Gal 2:15, 1Pet 4:18, disassociates sin from Christians.
Sin only applies to the lost who lack the covering of Christ.

So whilst Christians are not perfect in physical lifestyle, we are spiritually perfect/sinless because our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
---Haz27 on 3/23/16




Mark Eaton. Correct. I'm not making same claims as David. Perhaps you had missed it but I've said that Christians are NOT physically perfect, but they're SPIRITUALLY perfect.

My message has always been a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and therefore we're covered by Christ's sinlessness.
As for our old, obviously flawed physical man, it's already dead (by faith, Rom 6:6) BECAUSE OF SIN, Rom 8:10.

When Christians do wrong, we cannot be charged with sin. This means we cannot even say Christians sin because in effect that says a Christian is judged under the law which we're not even under.

To say a Christian sins, is to say that there's sin in Christ. BUT, there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5).
---Haz27 on 3/22/16


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Add to this Romans 10:9-10

Luke, THIS IS THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION according to the MYSTERY that was not revealed until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead. Christ in you, the Hope of Glory..Colossians 1:25-27.

I'm sorry you just don't get it.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/16


Anyone who has read my posts knows that I say Christians cannot be charged with sin.
---Haz27 on 3/21/16

Wow, out of all the posts you have ever made to me, this one post is the most succinct.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning all the time.

Please enlighten me farther. Are you saying that Believers cannot be charged with sin but do sin? Or are like David, who believes himself to be sinless?

I am not discussing being charged with sin. I am interested in your understanding if Believers do sin?
---Mark_Eaton on 3/22/16


Kath, how can Jesus the Risen Christ not be in the Old Testa ment? He is God, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Who do you think was the Angel of the Lord many times in the Old Testament? You try very much to exclude God from certain places in time. He has always been here, and He is right now here even though He is in the right hand of the Father. Jesus is Omnipresent. There is no place where God is not. Yet, as spirit, God does not occupy any place, in the sense that Physical objects occupy space.
---Luke on 3/22/16


What came FIRST Luke is they HEARD THE GOSPEL. And scripture says, they trusted AFTER THEY HEARD THE GOSPEL.

Please don't rewrite scripture. The WORD OF GOD is living and POWERFUL AND SHARPER THAN A TWO EDGE SWORD. You give no credit at all to the POWER OF THE WORD. You say that sin has more power than the POWER OF THE WORD. You give Satan more power than God. Yet scripture says that Satan has blinded their eyes LEST the Gospel opens them.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/16




Mark Eaton. You really need to give justification for your allegation that I charge Christians with sin, otherwise your claim unfounded.

Anyone who has read my posts knows that I say Christians cannot be charged with sin.

But as you always allege Christians sin, what sin (BCV) do you allege they're charged with?
---Haz27 on 3/21/16


Kath, if you want a reply from me, you are going to have to stop putting so many post together. I cannot answer everything. Keep it short.
---Luke on 3/21/16


Kath, you also posted:
"Ephesians 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"


In whom ye also trusted" only believers trust in God because sinner who is dead to Christ, trusted after they heard the truth of God, the gospel Truth. If they trusted in God they were born of God. Unbelievers do not trust in God. As Ep. 2:1,2 state:
"And you He made alive who were dead inn trespasses and sins.." What came first? made alive by the Spirit. Believe it or not, it is your choice.
---Luke on 3/21/16


Luke, here's what I mean about our DIFFERENT points of understanding. So let's take ..."And you He made ALIVE". Who is the He here? Ans 1st Cor 15, THE LAST ADAM IS that quickening LIFE GIVING Spirit. So in also answering another of your posts. Yes of coarse the Holy Spirit was in the OT as well as the NEW. Yet your idea of being Born Again, the New Birth, seems to leave out all together WHO and HOW the New Birth comes. YOUR "born again" new birth doesn't need JESUS CHRIST THE LAST ADAM at all. Again Luke, you have shown THE PREACHING OF THE "CROSS" IS FOOLISHNESS TO YOU.
The LAST ADAM , that is THE RISEN CHRIST, was not in the OT QUICKENING ANYONE.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/16


Samuel, sadly for Luke, that he can't see that Ephesians 1.. That I posted comes FIRST in Paul laying the groundwork of our awesome salvation, BEFORE, he goes on to those words in Chapter 2. Paul was not contradicting himself in Chapter 2. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is the sealing IN CHRIST, having baptized us INTO HIS BODY, meaning Jesus Body and raised a New Creation IN CHRIST..THE RISEN CHRIST. One must be Justified by faith FIRST, which is NOT the New Birth, BEFORE one can be IN CHRIST. And 1 Cor 15 says no one can be quickened unless one first Dies. we have to die with Christ FIRST, BEING CRUCIFIED WITH Christ, before being raised a New Creature. THEIR definition of being born again ..quickened, does not need the CROSS.
---kathr453 on 3/21/16


Thank you Samuel for also knowing the truth.

Luke, I also believe in those very verses you posted. The problem Luke is, your interpretation of those scriptures are not mine. You ADD to those verses what is never said in scripture. Those verses how very true come to us AFTER WE BELIEVE. And they are WONDERFUL truths. You CANNOT BE BORN AGAIN FIRST, that is crucified with Christ and raised a NEW creature FIRST, before you believe the Gospel of Salvation. You are saying Jesus has Joined Himself and become ONE with a sinner first, before they are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. A Holy God CANNOT. You are confusing justification with Sanctification.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/16


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Luke, MarkV and all Calvinists, please read and meditate and PRAY about these verses. Where is Calvinism taught here? It's NOT. And if you continue to read Romans 10, you will again SEE, if perhaps the LORD will open your eyes, that NOWHERE is it said you have to be born again first. Man CAN SEEK, but it must be by FAITH.


Romans 9:31-32

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone,
---kathr453 on 3/20/16


Amen Kathr.

I wish that all would accept the scripture you have posted.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/20/16


Kath, you can only believe in the truth after you are born of God. For all who are lost do not believe first. How can they believe if they are not born again? It is impossible for a lost person to believe while still dead in trespasses and sins. He has to be awaken.
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience..." Eph. 2:1,2.


For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" Eph. 2:8,9.
---Luke on 3/20/16


Biblically speaking

Ephesians 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise IS the Deposit of your inheritance, the PROMISE OF SALVATION, your New Birth. Being IN CHRIST, has SEALED YOU for eternity. This seal, is the Circumcision spoken in Colossians 2.

It all comes AFTER you believe. Belief, baptized into His death, and THEN raised a New Creeatue AKA the NEW BIRTH, THE NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST
---kathr4453 on 3/20/16


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Interesting viewpoint. I cannot speak for the whole church. But I can say that makes sense to me.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/20/16


\\Believing all those truths is not affected by believing that it is spiritual sense that the communion is the body and blood.
\\

But "spiritual" does not mean merely mental or symbolic.

In fact, the Greek word SYMBOLON, whence "symbol", means a bringing together of two realities.

Truly spiritual things are just as real as physical things are.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/16


But Cluny we accept all those truths you mentioned. Believing all those truths is not affected by believing that it is spiritual sense that the communion is the body and blood.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/16


\\Why do we have to have it be the real body?

Why is a spiritual sense not enough?\\

Why not?

Salvation is a spiritual matter, but when you remove all its physical aspects--the Resurrection, the Crucifixion, even the Incarnation itself--you wind up with NO salvation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/16


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Cluny, the presence of God is always with us, we do not need to take the Eucharist to have Christ present. He is always within us. We are the Church of Christ. The body of Christ. Where ever we go so goes the Church. We can never escape from the Lord.
---Luke on 3/19/16


\\If there is a specific gift to us in the Eucharist, beyond the Spiritual edification, He knew it and provided it for us.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/16
\\

BINGO!

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/16


Why do we have to have it be the real body?

Why is a spiritual sense not enough?
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


What He does for us in the Eucharist (and other ways) He does out of His infinite love for us.
---Cluny on 3/17/16

Okay, I will play this game.

What does the "real presence" in the Eucharist do for us?

This is the "why" in my post. If there is a specific gift to us in the Eucharist, beyond the Spiritual edification, He knew it and provided it for us.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/16


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\\Why would His "real" body need to be present in the Eucharist?\\

This question is based on a totally flawed assumption: that God "needs" or "has" to do some things.

Since Jesus is God Incarnate, He doesn't "need" to do anything.

What He does for us in the Eucharist (and other ways) He does out of His infinite love for us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


Then why do people like jerry try to apply scientific tests?
---Cluny on 3/17/16

I cannot speak for jerry. For me it is the word transubstantiation and the wording "real presence".

TS (trans...) means substance is transferring. Therefore, if substance is transferring or transmuting, it must be measurable. Else it is not transferring.

As for RP, we have corresponded before. Jesus is present everywhere, connected to all things, holding all things together. Why would His "real" body need to be present in the Eucharist?

And Jesus was present at the first Eucharist and He did say to the Apostles of the bread "this is my body" but the Apostles knew it was not His "real" body.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/17/16


\\This is certainly not a scientific test but it may be the best we have down here.\\

Then why do people like jerry try to apply scientific tests to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

If the work of the Holy Spirit can't be scientifically determined by one, how can it be determined in the other?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


Then how can one prove it happened in a given case?
---Cluny on 3/16/16

By the ongoing actions of the person.

No one knows the heart except God. But, we are to discern spirits.

In discerning of Spirits we can discern what is the Spirit of God and what is not, by the quality of love expressed by a person. Is the love other-centered, self-giving love that God expresses? Or is the love something less? Something more selfish, self-seeking, aggrandizing, or quid pro quo?

This is certainly not a scientific test but it may be the best we have down here.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/16/16


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I will ask a question here I have asked elsewhere.

Can the new birth/regeneration (no matter how one defines it) be determined by the scientific method?

Is it subject to laboratory analysis?

Then how can one prove it happened in a given case?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/16/16


Thank you Mark you have shown understanding and a Christian spirit.

Good points Luke.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/16/16


It would be a sin for me to not keep Sabbath
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16

Absolutely correct. Its what I said in my mind, but my post only alluded to it.

I should have said if a SDA member went to church on Sunday in place of going to church on Saturday, and not being convinced that Sunday is permitted.

Thanks for the clarification.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/16/16


Samuel, you say:
" True conviction must come before faith. God sends conviction to everyone."

Samuel, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. It bring judgment to the world for sinning against God.
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes..." Rom. 1:18.
The message of the cross comes with power for everyone who believe already. To those who do not believe it is foolishness. The lost are convicted of sin, "because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" Rom. 1:21.
---Luke on 3/16/16


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Mark on the pork and unclean food absolutely correct.

But on Sabbath close. It is not a sin to go to church on Sunday. I have visited church's on Sunday quite often. It would be a sin for me to not keep Sabbath. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


If one person will not eat pork because it is sin to him. He has no faith in eating that pork or else he would.
---Luke on 3/15/16

I think we are saying the same thing. Eating the pork when you are convinced it is unclean would be sin, but not because it is unclean, but because of the doubt in our own mind.

Similarly, the SDA are convinced that Saturday is the Sabbath. If a SDA member would attend services on Sunday, then it would be sin to that person. Perhaps Samuel would like to comment on this.

This logic seems to follow "let your Yes be Yes and your No be No". When we compromise our convictions and faith, we are lukewarm to God.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/15/16


True conviction must come before faith. God sends conviction to everyone.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


Mark, I gave no passage. But here is one ".....for whatever is not from faith is sin" Roman 14:23.
If one person will not eat pork because it is sin to him. He has no faith in eating that pork or else he would.
And the other has all the faith in eating it because He has faith in the word of God.
Also, all the people lost have no faith. They are sinners in need of God, they just don't know it. They will never come to Christ unless God opens their eyes and ears and changes their hearts. Otherwise they remain the same. The word of God is foolishness to them. Read 1 Cor. 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"
---Luke on 3/15/16


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Good point Mark Eaton. I will think about it more. But offhand I have to agree with you.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/14/16


"What is sin for one person, might not be sin for another"
---Luke on 3/11/16

I am not sure I agree with your opinion.

Romans 14 talks about this subject. In verse 20, it says that (specifically to food) whatever is used to give offense or cause another Brother to stumble is evil. I see this offence as sin.

The passage you refer to is in verses 21-23. I read these to say that it is best not to eat meat and to drink wine, but if you do be convinced of it before God. If you are uncertain of it, do not eat meat and drink wine. Because doing so is not from faith and anything not from faith is sin.

I do not see the act as being sin, but the double-mindedness of doing something I am unsure about.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/14/16


Note it's context refers to stumbling IN WORD.
---Haz27 on 3/12/16

I showed you three different Apostles where they discussed their own sin and yet you dismiss it by saying I misunderstand Scripture.

You tell me that my understanding of context is wrong.

This will be my last post to you. I will not follow you again down your rabbit hole.

Within James 3:2, the Scripture says we stumble in many ways, not just with our words.

And within James 3:2, the word stumble is the same word used in the following verse, clearly meaning sin:

James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all"
---Mark_Eaton on 3/14/16


Mark Eaton. You are misunderstanding the context of James 4, and also missing the fact that scripture is SPIRITUALLY discerned (1Cor 2:14).

Man should be in relationship with God. Married to Christ (Eph 5:31). We do this when we believe on Jesus.

James 4:4 addresses spiritual adulterers (committing spiritual adultery with HAGAR who is symbolic for righteousness under the law, Gal 4:24) are those hypocrites under the law judging and condemning others (James 4:12). Such are following the lusts of the world.

Thus we see that the good James 4:17 speaks of is obeying the WILL OF GOD, which is that we BELIEVE ON JESUS (John 6:40). This is consistent with John 16:9 which tells us that the sin the world is convicted of is UNBELIEF.
---Haz27 on 3/11/16


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Mark E. Regarding your quotes in other Blog, you misunderstand scriptures.

Rom 7:22,23. Yes, there's a war going on. It's called the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12). Those who continue to believe on Jesus are in the Spirit. But those who turn to the lusts of the flesh (unbelief/self-righteousness under law) are in the flesh.

James 3:2, Note it's context refers to stumbling IN WORD. By our words we're justified (Matt 12:36,37). And note the example James 3 gives Does a spring (a Christian) send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening? In other words we don't mix grace with works (Rom 11:6).

Re 1John 1:8 context shows it refers to the lost.

---Haz27 on 3/12/16


Luke your analogy would have been better if you had recognized that we are saved also. Your words seem to say that we are lost because we love GOD and keep his commandments. Which makes no sense considering that is what we are commanded by Jesus to do. Read I John and John 20.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/11/16


From this context we see that the "good" in James 4:17 refers to believing on Jesus, obeying God's will
---Haz27 on 3/11/16

I cannot agree with this.

The immediate context is the previous thought:

James 4:16 "But as it is, you boast in your arrogance, all such boasting is evil"

And what were they arrogant and boasting about?

Making selfish plans for the future, speaking (maliciously) against Christian brethren, judging Christian brethren, having quarrels and conflicts between Christian brethren, lusting and being envious of Christian brethren, and praying selfishly for themselves.

This is the context of James 4:17. And the "good" is not to do these things.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/11/16


Mark, there is another to think about:
"What is sin for one person, might not be sin for another"
One you can compare with is the SDA's Sabbath law.
To them it is sin to miss Saturday Sabbath, but to us who are saved it is no longer sin for we are under the Spirit of the Law, not under the written letter of the law.
To some it is sin to eat pork, and to others they can eat pork all they want to so long as they have faith in what they eat. "For anything without faith is sin".
---Luke on 3/11/16


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Luke on another blog you attributed my view concerning sin to Samuel, so I will respond here. When Father brought me to Jesus, I acknowledged Him as Lord, confessed my sins, and repented of those sins. I am now dead to sin, and alive in the Father through my Lord. Having been buried in Him, through baptism, in the likeness of His death, I have been raised with Him, in the likeness of His resurrection. My old man of sin has been destroyed, I no longer serve sin, because I am now dead to sin, and therefore, free from sin. I walk in the light, and I live for righteousness. Having been cleansed from all sin, I have absolutely no consciousness of sin in my life, for Jesus bore it. I leave sin for those of you who embrace it.
---joseph on 3/11/16


What about this Scripture and what is being transgressed?
James 4:17 "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin"
Good point Mark, one that I had not really considered. However, after doing so, I view that type of error in thinking, as an error immediately addressed, and corrected, as one yields oneself to the Father as a living sacrifice to be transformed by an ongoing renewing of the mind.
---josef on 3/11/16


Biblically speaking, the new birth is first, then belief, then Baptism.
The lost do not believe. They need for the Holy Spirit to bring them alive, and grant them faith. To later get baptized as commanded by the Lord. Only those who are born again want to get baptized.
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lust of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just like the others." Eph. 2:1-3. I believe it is pretty simple. No mystery to that.
---Luke on 3/11/16


Mark Eaton. Consider the context of James 4:17 to understand what "good" it refers to.

Who is James 4 addressing?
James 4:4 SPIRITUAL Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?

James 4:7,8 is a salvation call to these sinners/unbelievers.

James 4:11,12 confirms that these spiritual adulterers were legalists (unbelievers) judging righteousness by deeds of law, and thus in spiritual adultery with Hagar (who is symbolic for righteousness by deeds of the law, Gal 4:21-25).

From this context we see that the "good" in James 4:17 refers to believing on Jesus, obeying God's will (John 6:40).

---Haz27 on 3/11/16


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Samuel. Josef asked a good question.
What sin (BCV) are Christians supposedly guilty of?

Is it transgression of law (1John 3:4)?
But whatever the law says IT SAYS TO THOSE UNDER IT, Rom 3:19. Christians are NOT UNDER THE LAW (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18).

Is it unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9)?
This would apply to those under the law because the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

Whilst we both agree we're not perfect in this physical state, the SPIRITUAL REALITY is that Christians ARE SPIRITUALLY PERFECT (Heb 10:14), HOLY (Rom 11:16), RIGHTEOUS (Rom 4:5) in Christ.
A Christians life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3), and there's NO SIN IN CHRIST, 1John 3:5. To say we sin is to say there's sin in Christ.
---Haz27 on 3/11/16


Sin is defined biblically, as a transgression of the law, missing the mark of the high calling of God in Christ, or unbelief.
---josef on 3/10/16

What about this Scripture and what is being transgressed?

James 4:17 "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin"

I see this as an all-encompassing principal. The principal provides a way to keep us Believers humble.

For example, I know the right thing to do with the world around me is to love everyone. But, I do not always love everyone, especially when they cut me off in traffic. When I do not love them, it is sin. And I must confess that sin or it "blocks" my relationship with God.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/10/16


Samuel said:

"Total depravity says we have to be forced and cannot choose."

Wrong, total depravity means mankind is dead/loss in sin.

"Unconditional Election only a few are chosen to be saved."

Sir, Wrong, know one knows if it will be a few or many.
---john9346 on 3/10/16


"Limited Atonement. Jesus only died for the few GOD has chosen. The rest he hates and created so he can torture them for all eternity since they have no hope."

Sir, you are wrong, limited atonement is based on Unconditional Election which if you really understood says nothing about God hating anyone...


"Perseverance of the Saints. The chosen few are saved not by their choice."

Wrong again, perseverance of the saints means those who have been saved will continue to be save because of God's Grace to keep them.


Sir, I would never state as you just did such misrepresentations and dishonesty about the SDA.
---john on 3/10/16


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Samuel, this is not an attempt to answer for Haz, who I know is fully capable of answering for Herself. However, I am continually reading the view that the believer sins, and are held accountable for sin. Although its Ok with me if one considers themselves a sinner, I say so be it, what I don't like is the attempt to include all believers, and the presumptuousness of declaring those of us that do not believe as they do, as being deceived, based on one misapplied verse of scripture. Sin is defined biblically, as a transgression of the law, missing the mark of the high calling of God in Christ, or unbelief. Which one of these do you consider yourself guilty of, and why?
---josef on 3/10/16


I have been guilty of mistakes and missing words also. So I cannot be mad at anyone who makes mistakes. Seems we are all human here. :)

True Haz our faith by the Grace of GOD is his righteousness made ours.

But that does not mean we cannot commit a sin. Otherwise why would John tell us if we sin we have an advocate with the Father. IJohn 2,1 if we sin.

Are you saying you never do anything that would be against love and one of the Ten Commandments?

We are supposed to live for GOD. But I do not count myself perfect. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/9/16


This line was meant to read "Luke how in the world did you get all of that from Samuel's statement?"
I have no idea how I missed that, I made a sincere effort to proof read the response. It just go to show why others are employed to proof read. As the writer, one tends to read with ones minds eye that which was intended, rather than that which is actually there:o) Ones got to love it, or spend ones time frustrated by, why didn't I see that before I sent it!:o)
---josef on 3/9/16


" know you do not want God to make the choice as to who will be save. You believe He has to conduct Himself the way you think He should. That He just doesn't have the right on what to do with His own creation, that man has some say in it." Luke how in the world did you get all of that for Samuel's statement?
---josef on 3/8/16


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Samuelbb7. Regarding your reference to John 16:8,look further to see what sin it speaks of.

John 16:9
of sin, because they do not believe in Me

Judging righteousness by deeds of the law is unbelief in Jesus. We CANNOT mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

Whilst sin is also defined as transgression of the law (1John 3:4), the fact remains that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Christians are NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18), hence we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9). Instead, it's our faith that is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

---Haz27 on 3/8/16


Luke it is not what I want or wish that counts. It is what the Bible says.
Total depravity says we have to be forced and cannot choose.
Unconditional Election only a few are chosen to be saved.
Limited Atonement. Jesus only died for the few GOD has chosen. The rest he hates and created so he can torture them for all eternity since thy have no hope.
Perseverance of the Saints. The chosen few are saved not by their choice.

This says GOD is hateful not loving.

We agree Josef. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/8/16


Samuel, you give:
John 16:8:
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.""
Here the passage is talking about the Holy Spirit coming and convicting the world of sin, that is the act of convincing since the purpose of the Holy Spirit is not condemnation but conviction to the need for a Savior. The Son does the Judgment together with the Father.
The Holy Spirit does come to convict the world for the need of a Savior.
I know you do not want God to make the choice as to who will be save. You believe He has to conduct Himself the way you think He should. That He just doesn't have the right on what to do with His own creation, that man has some say in it.
---Luke on 3/8/16


"The problem gets to be is that some believe GOD only chooses to convict some people." Yes Samuel, it is a problem, and an unwarranted one.
But that is not what the Bible says. "John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
Exactly, and that speaks to all men. For Father is no respecter on persons. He shows no partiality, no favoritism when dealing with people. "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." Act 10:34,35
---josef on 3/8/16


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Amen Josef.

The problem gets to be is that some believe GOD only chooses to convict some people. But that is not what the Bible says.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/7/16


"Please notice that the scripture states "nor of the will of man." Unless God acts we are in a state of being dead in trespasses and sins and have no desire to follow God. We truly are saved by grace!!!" Trey, I agree, 100 percent. I have said no less than that. The fact is, those who believe, beleive through our Fathers work in them. I know grace to be Fathers Divine influence upon the heart of man. As a matter of fact, the Strongs, in book form defines it as such. Please feel free to look it up if you have access to the Thomas Nelson publication Copyright 1990. The greek word is "Charis", the number is 5485. So, again we agree, I simply believe that belief comes first for the aforementioned reasons.
---josef on 3/7/16


Joseph, please look at the rest of the verse you quoted. It explains what Luke and I are saying.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)

Please notice that the scripture states "nor of the will of man." Unless God acts we are in a state of being dead in trespasses and sins and have no desire to follow God. We truly are saved by grace!!!
---trey on 3/7/16


"How can a person believe if he is lost and without faith?" Luke you answered your own question. "But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, (now lets look at who are those who receive Him) to those who believe in His name. (who are they) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" The right to be called children of God, comes with the new birth. The new birth, comes with receiving Him. Those who receive Him, "believe in His name". How? "This is the work of God". (1. Jhn 6:29>2. Jhn 1:12,13>3. Act 10:47) Those who believe, are born again, and are baptized, as evidence of that new birth.
---josef on 3/6/16


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Samuel, Trey is correct. How can a person believe if he is lost and without faith? All who are without faith that are perishing believe the message of the cross is foolishness. Read 1 Cor. 1:18.
Now go to John 1:12.13,
"But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, (now lets look at who are those who receive Him) to those who believe in His name. (who are they) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
Only those born of God believe already.
So, a person has to be born again in order to believe, receive Christ, and be children of God.
---Luke on 3/6/16


Believe,when someone testifies of Christ and a person believes in Him which brings them to repent of sins. After Repentance,we must be Baptized for it is then we are buried with Christ in His death,burial in the grave and as Christ arose,we arise from the Baptism grave a New Creature in Christ walking in the Spirit in righteousness forsaking sin.
---Darlene_1 on 3/6/16


Salvation belief and the new birth thereof work together with being "baptized into His death" > see Romans 6:3. Then we need to seek our Father for correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 > of His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17.

I consider that if we are baptized into the death of Jesus, now we are in His love which had Him so suffer and die for us and any and all people. So then we are more and more busy with caring for any and all people. This means we believe in loving the way Jesus has loved us, and this loving makes us new creatures (c:

So, it's all three in one, in God's love and how the grace of this love makes us alive > Ephesians 2:1-10.

God bless you (c:
---Bill on 3/5/16


It seems trey we disagree. Why do you believe that a person has to be Born Again in order to believe?

Instead of they must believe in order to be Born Again?

These events are near simultaneous. But their still must be acceptance before you are changed.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/5/16


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Based upon the scriptures, in every case, the order is:
1. New Birth
2. Belief
3. Baptism

Paul on the road to Damascus is a great example:
1. He is struck down and born again.
2. He believes.
3. He is baptized.

Nicodemus comes to Christ - John chapter 3.
1. Christ tells him except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
-Nicodemus would not have come to Christ in the first place if he had not been born again, the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom not seen with our natural eyes.
2. Hebrew 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please God. Galatians 5:22 tells us that faith is a fruit of the Spirit thus the Spirit of God works first in the New Birth and then we believe.
---trey on 3/4/16


"Good points Josef. Amen" Thank you Samuel, Father be praised, who blesses me at times, by His Spirit, to be privileged to share "good points".
---josef on 3/3/16


Good points Josef. Amen
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


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