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Can I Lose My Salvation

Is it possible for someone to "backslide" so far that they lose their eternal salvation?

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 ---trey on 2/29/16
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John 9346, Strongaxe is totaly correct in his statement. Many years ago, I was engaged to someone who follows the Calvinist doctrines and teaching. Calvinist do believe a person has no say in whether or not they are, or not saved.

Also, her pastor was against our getting married because we were of different ethnicity.
---Rob on 3/14/16


john9346:

You wrote: For example, Strongaxe's Following statement which is erroneous

Of course the conclusionn is erroneous, but it is the inevitable result of the premise of predestination. If God has already made up his mind whether or not whether we're saved or not, and nothing we can do will change that, we might as well all just do as we please.

If the reasoning is sound and the conclusion is false, the premise must be false as well.

So, either predestination is false, or we can do as we please. Which is it?
---StrongAxe on 3/15/16


(Rita said, "I have had Calvinists tell me that they can machine gun down people and it doesn't matter."

Are there 2 Ritas on CNet? If not, I must add memory loss to my list of health issues as I have no recall of EVER saying that. Please let me know when and where I said that John as this worries me somewhat.
---Rita_H on 3/15/16


A person is either saved or he is not. ---Luke on 3/14/16

Luke
I agree, but many who believe they are saved have no way of knowing they are saved, according to the "Believe your saved" doctrines.

I would hope a person would want more than "Positive thinking" as assurance for their Salvation. I would hope they would desire the absolute proof the bible provides.

The problem, these doctrines must reject the Biblical assurances because they go against their teachings. They are against these teachings, because they have no experience of what is written.

This is why they must break out a dictionary, with modern definitions for a word, so they can make the bible say what they want it to say.
---David on 3/15/16


Monk, you said:
"STOP RIGHT THERE! All of the others I will agree with, but lumping the Catholic Church in with those false teachers is flat out wrong!

WHO do you think kept the Bible, and the body of believers going until your "Reformers" came along and really gummed up the works."


Monk, stop there. It was God who kept His word all through the centuries. It was God who inspired certain individuals to write His word. It is always God who gets the glory. No man could do anything without God moving him. Now if you want the Catholic church to take credit for something, it was them who hide the child molesters by moving to other places where they continued doing the same thing. And this happened for years.
---Luke on 3/15/16




Rita said, "I have had Calvinists tell me that they can machine gun down people and it doesn't matter."

Ma'am, not sure of your point, but there are always mischaracterizations in every faith.

For example, Strongaxe's Following statement which is erroneous


"This can lead to Calvinistic defeatism - i.e. if it's already been determined whether I'm saved or not, and nothing I can do to change that, why should I even bother?"
---john9346 on 3/14/16


Revelations 3:5 (Paraphrased) those who overcome,I will not erase their names out of he Book of Life. It all depends on the behavior of the person and if they love and obey God and walk in Righteousness and Holiness then they are children of God. If they give in to temptation and listen to the flesh and follow the desires of the flesh and sin,forsaking God and His Word,then they will be blotted out of the Book of Life. You don't loose salvation but you can throw it away though it all depends on who you love and follow. Remember the Bible says be hot or cold if you be lukewarm I'll spew you out of my mouth.
---Darlene_1 on 3/14/16


Good points Strong Ax.

Thank you John. I will look that up. I don't want to try to answer till I have read it and the context.

I have heard marvelous testimonies from onenes Pentecostals.

I have had Calvinists tell me that they can machine gun down people and it doesn't matter.

The Bible say all who are filled and follow GOD. Will have the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/14/16


Luke:

Not directly, why would Jesus have said what he did? "If someone is good, I won't blot his name out. If he's evil, I won't blot it out either. In fact, I never blot anyone's name out at all" might be something you would expect from a stand-up comic (pointing out the absurdity of it all), but not scripture.

Did Jesus say the Father made a mistake...

This is a good question. When both "yes" and "no" answers lead to absurd conclusions, one must look for solutions elsewhere.

This can lead to Calvinistic defeatism - i.e. if it's already been determined whether I'm saved or not, and nothing I can do to change that, why should I even bother?
---StrongAxe on 3/14/16


Rita,

Those individuals who have a Wonderful Testimony are of the Elect and they are testifying of God's Electing Grace towards them...


The reprobate would never do that, "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to Gods law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Rom 8:7-8





---john9346 on 3/14/16




Rita states, "'Pre-determined', not necessarily. God has foreknowledge and KNOWS who will be saved. That is not the same as Him having planned it that way."



29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:29-30



"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48
---john on 3/14/16


John "Those who are reprobate do not want to be saved for it is not their desire." Many don't want to be saved and think that God and the bible are equivalent to fairy stories, YET some of these people have been miraculously saved and now have the most wonderful testimonies to give.
---Rita_H on 3/14/16


David, you give:
"Revelation 3:5) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

The passage does not say names have being blotted out. Those who overcome are genuine believers. They are the only ones in the book of life. Did Jesus say the Father made a mistake and put some who were not saved in the book of life? Maybe He forgot and left some of those that did not overcome. God does not make mistakes David.
A person is either save or he is not. And only God knows who they are and how many will be saved. When the count is up, we will have the Second Coming of Christ. Time is up.
---Luke on 3/14/16


Rita said, "Predestination does not sound like the action of a loving God. Being born with there never being the hope of being saved makes no sense (to me) and evangelizing makes no sense in such circumstances either."

Ma'am, I believe you are confusing predestination and reprobation.

Those who are reprobate do not want to be saved for it is not their desire.

Evangelizing is not for us to decide, it is God's Choice to know and draw those to whom he has elected.

See Rom 9:9-23.
---john9346 on 3/13/16


"THAT the Bible teaches predestination, is true, that it teaches what modern theology defines the term to mean, we think is not true. As set forth in the Scriptures, it is a doctrine full of comfort and consolation, as taught in the creeds, it is full of spiritual paralysis and despair. In the Scriptures, it is the assurance of salvation so long as we maintain a certain relation to God, in theology, it is a relation determined for us independently of our own will, and a fixed destiny to a life which we cannot lose, or a death, which we cannot avert."

Ellen G. White

Synopsis of the Present Truth chapter 29
---john on 3/13/16


"On the one hand, the names of the saved are written in the Book of Life "from the foundation of the world", so one would think that one's salvation was already pre-determined long ago."

'Pre-determined', not necessarily. God has foreknowledge and KNOWS who will be saved. That is not the same as Him having planned it that way.

Predestination does not sound like the action of a loving God. Being born with there never being the hope of being saved makes no sense (to me) and evangelizing makes no sense in such circumstances either.
---Rita_H on 3/12/16


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Hello John9346 Many times when speaking of those who are saved she often used the same words as those who believe in Predestination. But knowing the body of her work I can say she does not. Could you please tell me on what you base your assertion.

I trust Ellen G. White, Luther, Wesley and even Calvin. But I don't depend on any of them to teach me the truth. The final source of all truth must be the Bible.

Which is where Monk Brendan I differ with the RCC. To me the Reformers tried to fix it. The counter reformation did a great work of fixing the worst of the problems. But I cannot endorse all it teaches.

Joseph Amen great points. Thank you.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/11/16


Luke, I will say this again for the benefit of others who may have questions concerning this. The book of life documents all life. All who have been, and all who will be given life on this planet. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world, was sacrificed for the life of all men. I base that on His being the savior of all men, He gave Himself as a ransom for all, desiring all men to be saved, and for all to come unto the knowledge of the truth. The names that will be removed from the book are those who subject themselves to the second death through their blatant refusal to receive Him and His payment for their sin. Refs. Heb 10:26>1Ti 4:10>1Ti 2:4,6>1Jo 2:2>John 4:42>1Jo 4:14> In the end>1Jo 5:12
---joseph on 3/11/16


Luke said, "Some believe in the wrong person, ...the Catholic church."

STOP RIGHT THERE! All of the others I will agree with, but lumping the Catholic Church in with those false teachers is flat out wrong!

WHO do you think kept the Bible, and the body of believers going until your "Reformers" came along and really gummed up the works.

Oh, I will admit that the Church made mistakes. And I will also admit that the Church elected some pretty bad men to the Papacy. But for the most part, the Catholic Church (along with Orthodoxy) kept the faith, teaching the Love of God, and how to get to heaven long before any of the Reformers were even twinkles in their grandfathers' eyes.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/11/16


David, give me one passage where Jesus states that names of genuine believers have been blotted out of the book of life. ---Luke on 3/11/16

(Revelation 3:5) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
---David on 3/11/16


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David, give me one passage where Jesus states that names of genuine believers have been blotted out of the book of life.
I heard they could, but never heard that genuine believers were blotted out.
If they were not saved and God knows who they are, their names are not in the book of life. For no one lost has his name in the book of life. If they were and God had to remove them, then He made a mistake by putting them in the book of life before the foundation of the world. And as I heard, God makes no mistakes. Maybe you made a mistake.
---Luke on 3/11/16


I'm not sure. On the one hand, the names of the saved are written in the Book of Life "from the foundation of the world", so one would think that one's salvation was already pre-determined long ago. Then again, Jesus mentions "names blotted out of the Book of Life", which indicates someone whose name was already there (from the beginning of the world), but was later removed.

...it's not possible to distinguish "losing your salvation" from "never having actually been saved in the first place".
---StrongAxe on 3/10/16


Strongaxe
Very well said. As you have also captured my thoughts on this matter.
---David on 3/11/16


Trey, I believe the reason many do not believe in OSAS is that they witness some individuals in their churches to later see them back where they came from. It happens many times.
That only shows they were never changed to begin with. Others have the wrong gospel. Some believe in the wrong person, like E.G. White, Charles Russell, John Smith, Mohammad, the Catholic church. They believe their teachings. Compared to what Scripture says, they are far from the Truth, yet they believe they are saved. Then turn around and sin, hiding from other brothers and sisters. So they won't be seen. If we have a true Love for Christ, then a person is saved. If the Spirit convicts our spirit that we are children of God, then we are saved.
---Luke on 3/11/16


samuelbb7 said, "I rest in the work of Christ and follow and trust him. But I don't believe in Once Saved Always saved or predestination."

Sir, Did you know that the founder of your church (Ellen G. White) believed in predestination??
---john9346 on 3/10/16


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I rest in the work of Christ and follow and trust him. But I don't believe in Once Saved Always saved or predestination.

I am married for 42 years. I know my wife can divorce me and leave. But I am not worried about it.

I love my Savior and look to him alone for salvation.

There was a gentlemen who taught once saved always saved I cannot remember his name. But I remember this. He said we know we are in Christ when we love his law and hate sin. That because we love we don't want to sin and fight against sin.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/10/16


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: But what does that do to our confidence and trust in God?

As I said before: perfect knowledge is science. We aren't told to have knowledge. Imperfect knowledge is trust and faith. We are told to have faith.

A lack of confidence in our salvation and God is as bad as being deluded in our belief.

We can have confidence, even though we realize that our thinking process may not be 100% accurate. We know it is possible to have trust and confidence in things that are dead wrong, because there are many people who have trust and confidence, and believe things that are not correct.
---StrongAxe on 3/10/16


it's not possible to distinguish "losing your salvation" from "never having actually been saved in the first place".
---StrongAxe on 3/10/16

But what does that do to our confidence and trust in God?

A lack of confidence in our salvation and God is as bad as being deluded in our belief.

The two biggest words for me when talking about God is acceptance and confidence.

When you look at religions, all are attempting to get both of these from God by performing "acts" for God.

I believe God has given both to us thru Jesus. We can rest in the finished work of Jesus because God has accepted us (forgiven us) and we can have confidence in this belief.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/10/16


Good point Mark it is GOD who must convict and convince anyone. All we can do is present. Conviction is by the HOLY SPIRIT alone.

Those who follow GOD overcome. Those who say they follow GOD and live in sin. Teach once saved always saved as much as the Jews did teach that they were saved because they were jews.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/9/16


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"Josef, you did not even read what I said." How many times have I misquoted you? Please point them out.
---joseph on 3/9/16


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: But, I am curious. You know my answer to the blog question. But I do not know yours.

What is your answer to the blog question?


I'm not sure. On the one hand, the names of the saved are written in the Book of Life "from the foundation of the world", so one would think that one's salvation was already pre-determined long ago. Then again, Jesus mentions "names blotted out of the Book of Life", which indicates someone whose name was already there (from the beginning of the world), but was later removed.

Then again, it's academic - it's not possible to distinguish "losing your salvation" from "never having actually been saved in the first place".
---StrongAxe on 3/10/16


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (KJV)

The above is a positive, reaffirming statement of encouragement to believers. It is not a negative statement.
---trey on 3/9/16


Trey
I agree, and I thank you for sharing this encouraging verse. But who is the "overcomer"?

I believe the overcomer is the one who has overcome sin. Those who were once slaves of sin, those God has adopted and made slaves of his righteousness.

I believe the righteous are Gods servants, not in words, but in deeds.
---David on 3/10/16


There's no convincing argument you could give a Mormon to tell him his "gut feeling" is wrong rather than from God.
---StrongAxe on 3/9/16

And all I can answer is the saying, "this is Gods problem, not mine".

I can neither convince or convict anyone, that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

This discussion proves to me why we are commanded not to judge people and to not compare ourselves with anyone but Jesus.

But, I am curious. You know my answer to the blog question. But I do not know yours.

What is your answer to the blog question?
---Mark_Eaton on 3/9/16


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Josef, you did not even read what I said. Here is one of the most important ways to began interpreting a passage. This comes first.
No passage can be understood correctly when the passage goes against God's nature, character and Attributes. If the passage seems to say something that goes against His nature, character or Attributes then the passage is been read wrong.
God never changes. God is not only Omniscience, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Incomprehensible, Holy, Righteous and so on.
So you are suggesting God didn't know when He put all the names on the book that some were not going to be saved. Why put their names on book to begin with to later remove them? He knows all things, and never learns anything.
---Luke on 3/9/16


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (KJV)

The above is a positive, reaffirming statement of encouragement to believers. It is not a negative statement.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)

Notice that these names were never written in the book.
---trey on 3/9/16


"It is called the book of life because only the names those who will be saved are already written in the book of life.---Luke on 3/9/16" Luke, then why are names blotted out of the book? Certainly He is not referring to those He has saved? Jesus promised not to blot out the name of the overcomer, by that statement, it is inferred that some names will be, who would that be if not the unbeliever. And if you truly read and understood the verses that I mentioned, you either know that to be true, or you have simply dismissed the verses.
---joseph on 3/9/16


Mark_Eaton:

I don't disagree. However, many are deluded into believing that they have the witness of the HS. The fact that there are groups that have opposing and incompatible beliefs who all nevertheless belive this is ironclad proof of this. For example, the Mormons teach that we should "pray to God" for him to reveal to us whether or not the Book of Mormon is the word of God - and if you ask most of them, they will say they have done this, and gotten back an affirmative witness - even though many things in that book contradict scripture, and comprise "another gospel" that Paul warned about. There's no convincing argument you could give a Mormon to tell him his "gut feeling" is wrong rather than from God.
---StrongAxe on 3/9/16


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Luke
Thank you.
One of my greatest loves in this life, is a discussion about the things of God. But in order to have a discussion, I must open my mind to what others believe. I ask them questions, to open their minds to what I believe.

In Lieu of what we're discussing, when Jesus addressed the seven churches, he said to each one of them, "I know thy works". If works played no role in their lives, why do you believe Jesus mentioned their "Works"?
---David on 3/9/16


Josef, concerning what you said, you mentioned that the names of all individuals are written already in the book of life. By the way, I read the passages you put down, let me just say that If God put everybody's names down to later take them out because later He found out they were not responding to the gospel, that means He didn't know they were not going to respond to the gospel. And that is impossible with God since He knows all things. After all He is Omniscience. Knowing everything and never learning. It is called the book of life because only the names those who will be saved are already written in the book of life.
---Luke on 3/9/16


Part 2 - There is no way for someone who thinks he is saved to objectively determine which of these two he is.
---StrongAxe on 3/7/16

Being in Christ goes primarily to doctrine. Romans 6 & 7 stand out as passages to compare yourself to.

Which leads us back to the main context point of determining if you have the HS in you.

Many point to Spiritual gifts as evidence. I agree with this but not as the main proof. Many point to the Spirit convicting us of sin in our life. I agree, but not as the main proof.

What I see as the main proof is the Holy Spirit convicting us of righteousness, with this based upon John 16:10. Who we are in Christ is our righteousness before God and the HS convicts us of this.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/8/16


David, you said:
"Luke
Help me to understand your understanding of (Revelation 20:12). It says there, we will be judged by our "Works"."


I will try David.
First of all those in Christ do not go to the Great White Throne of Judgment to be judge and sentence, only unbelievers go the to be judge by their works. Every bad thing they did against God is written in the Book.
Believers on the other hand go to the Judgment Seat of Christ. All their sins have already been forgiven by the blood of Christ who bought them. Their bad works will be burned and they will be rewarded for the good they did. I hope that you can understand.
---Luke on 3/8/16


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There is no way for someone who thinks he is saved to objectively determine which of these two he is.
---StrongAxe on 3/7/16

Which leads me back to Romans 8:16 and additional exploration.

God provides His Holy Spirit in us, and the HS confirms in us that we are saved. But the issues are how to determine that you have the HS and what does the HS confirm?

To what the HS confirms, the context of the Romans 8 passage helps us

Romans 8:1 "therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit".

Two subjects emerge, being in Christ and walking according to the Spirit. The latter subject is explained thoroughly in Galatians 5.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/8/16


"Why would Jesus choose a devil, really?"
Ruben I've answered that question in the post on 3/5.
"Why would he give a devil the authorithy to expel demons,"
He gave that authority to the twelve, Judas just happen to be among them.
Jesus himself said Satan can not go against satan."
He did not say he can not, he simply implied that he would not. However, we are speaking of Judas, not Satan. And Jesus Himself referred to Judas as a devil.>Jhn 6:70,71
"How can it be a woe, if you are claiming Judas was choosen for this reason??" Because Jesus said so.
---Josef on 3/8/16


Our name is written in the book before the foundation of the world.
---Luke on 3/6/16


Luke
Help me to understand your understanding of (Revelation 20:12). It says there, we will be judged by our "Works".
What are these "Works" for which all men will be judged, in view of what Paul taught In (Romans 2:5-10) about those who will receive Eternal life, because of their "Good Works"?
---David on 3/8/16


Josef * It is implied in Jesus choosing a devil as one of His twelve.

Why would Jesus choose a devil, really? Why would he give a devil the authorithy to expel demons, when Jesus himself said Satan can not go against satan.

Josef * Jesus said, "I know whom I have chosen, but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me."

Where scripture said ' A close friend of mine, Who I trusted"


Josef * but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed.

How can it be a woe, if you are claiming Judas was choosen for this reason??
---Ruben on 3/7/16


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Mark_Eaton:

I get that, but perhaps you have trouble understanding mine.

Those who ARE saved CORRECTLY have assurance of that salvation. Some unsaved people know they are, but some are DELUDED into THINKING they are saved.

Thus, those who THINK they are saved fall into two categories: those who are ACTUALLY saved, and those who are DELUDED into thinking they are. There is no way for someone who thinks he is saved to objectively determine which of these two he is. Mormons and Muslims are certain in their convictions, yet are wrong.

And without firm assurance that we are saved, how can we trust God?

We can't know for sure (which would be science). We can only trust and believe (which is faith).
---StrongAxe on 3/7/16


This means that merely being certain in your mind that you are saved...is no guarantee that you actually ARE saved.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/16

Perhaps you have trouble reading my posts.

Rom 8:16-17 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together"

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." and yet you are still looking for truth. Perhaps your philosophy has let you down.

And without firm assurance that we are saved, how can we trust God? Without trust, no belief, without belief, no salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/7/16


David ask, When does our name get written into the Book of Life?
Luke answered, Our name is written in the book before the foundation of the world.
If I may chime in with my view, It is my belief that everyone who has ever lived on this planet have their names written in the Lambs book of life, because names are not added, they are removed, apparently this removal happens at some time after judgement seat of Christ and the resurrection, and before the final judgement, for at that time some names will not be found. Yet their names would have to have been there at one point, in order to have been blotted out. This view is based on Psa 109:13>Deu 29:20>Exo 32:33>Psa 69:28>Rev 3:5>Rev 13:8>Rev 20:12>Rev 20:15
---joseph on 3/7/16


David, you say:
"When does our name get written into the Book of Life? Is it before or after we are judged?"
Our name is written in the book before the foundation of the world. Believers do not go to the Great White throne of Judgment, only unbelievers do. Believers don't go to that judgment seat.
Believers go to the Judgment Seat of Christ. Their bad works will be burn and they will be rewarded for the good they did.
So not all go to the Great White Throne of Judgment. Don't forget that believers have been bought with a prize.
---Luke on 3/6/16


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"Where in that scripture verse does it say Judas was chosen so that scripture can be fulfillment?" It is implied in Jesus choosing a devil as one of His twelve. Jesus made it real, for me, when He said, "I know whom I have chosen, but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me." He goes on to say, "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, What you do, do quickly." I simply shared what I believe, I do not share dogmatically. Receive it, or dismiss it, I am no mans teacher.
---Josef on 3/5/16


John 6:37 means exactly what it says. Truth. God predestined us, then at a certain time in our lives He calls us. So God calls individuals and they in turn are turned over to Christ. God call, Jesus saves them, and the Holy Spirit seal's them forever.
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved" Eph. 1:4,5,6.
---Luke on 3/6/16


(Relelation 20)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


When does our name get written into the Book of Life? Is it before or after we are judged?
---David on 3/6/16


If we truly have been saved, we are safe.

So, if you know you are not safe, trust in Jesus to make you safe.

The Bible is designed to bring out what you need to see about yourself.
---Bill on 3/5/16


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Doesn't Judas prove it is possible?" No Nicole, he doesn't. Judas' betrayal was a fulfillment of prophesy. As it is written, "Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me." He was chosen to serve that purpose. Like Jesus said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him."
---Josef on 3/4/16

Where in that scripture verse does it say Judas was chosen so that scripture can be fulfillment? It reads he was a close friend of mine who I trusted who HAS turn on me. Not that he will..
---Ruben on 3/5/16


To reiterate Luke's excellent response to this post, which I too believe answers this question perfectly, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, "They went out from us, (believers), but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" 1 John 2:19 AMEN!! That's the bottom line concerning those who some might call "backsliders". Actually they simply thought themselves to have arrived at a place, that the Father was yet to bring them to.
---Josef on 3/5/16


"Doesn't Judas prove it is possible?" No Nicole, he doesn't. Judas' betrayal was a fulfillment of prophesy. As it is written, "Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me." He was chosen to serve that purpose. Like Jesus said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him."
---Josef on 3/4/16


Mark_Eaton:

This is one of the central dilemmas of epistemology (i.e. the study of the essence of truth). Those who are saved, can know with certainty that they are saved. Unfortunately, those who are lost DON'T know for certainty that they are lost - some are deluded and think that they are saved. This means that merely being certain in your mind that you are saved, is, in and of itself, no guarantee that you actually ARE saved. This is manifestly evident by the fact that there are many people with mutually incompatible beliefs (e.g. Christian saints and Muslim terrorists) who are both 100% convinced they will attain paradise - regardless of whether one or the other is right, it is objectively IMPOSSIBLE for both to be right.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/16


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Trey, people who backslide are not Christians. They are apostates. They never had salvation. Can we know of others who have backslide? At a Pentecostal church I first started at, some people went forward to commit their lives to Christ so many times. The same people didn't seem to believe they were saved so they answered the call many times. They doubted their faith. Some left the church and never came back. Now we don't know if they just went to another church. So actually we don't know about others faith only our own. That is why when Paul or other spoke in Scripture they talked about those who had not committed their lives to Christ yet.
---Luke on 3/5/16


John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.--micha9344 on 3/4/16

Doesn't Judas prove it is possible?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/4/16


Nicole
Excellent point, a point which clearly shows many folks take what's Jesus said in (John 6:37), out of his intended context.
---David on 3/5/16


There are three current views on this point often discussed.

One Yes they can. This is prevalent in those who are Wesleyan and Arminius view.

Those who are Calvinist have two views.

One is no. Once a person says they are saved they cannot be lost no matter what they do.

I vehemently oppose that view.

The third sometimes called Lordship salvation. Says they were never saved in the first place because they failed to keep following GOD. I don't oppose this much and see light in it.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/5/16


I do not believe that Judas ever had everlasting life in the first place.

Here is how he is described:
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. (KJV)
...so he was a thief that cared not for his fellow man. I do not see any fruit of the Spirit, i.e. no proof of ever being born again.

John 17:12, Christ calls Judas the son of perdition meaning the son of hell.

Again, I believe Judas Iscariot was never truly eternally saved to begin with.
---trey on 3/5/16


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Doesn't Judas prove it is possible?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/4/16


...Was she saved? I'm sure she thought so initially. Did she lose her salvation? Was she ever saved in the first place?
---StrongAxe on 3/3/16

Yet, you have provided no answers. Just more questions. Perhaps, that is your answer.

Perhaps your answer is "we really do not know" or "we can have no certainty".

Was the message of Jesus one of uncertainty or certainty? Did Jesus followers know beyond a shadow of a doubt, their eternal fate? Would they have sacrificed their lives for an uncertainty?

As your story illustrates, we do know with certainty where we stand with God. And with God's help and direction, if we overcome this life, we will know for eternity.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/4/16


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all, and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life...
1Jo 5:13
---micha9344 on 3/4/16


Strongaxe, you said:
"and drove them to a gas station. The girl asked me, "You're a Christian, aren't you?". I said I was. She said "I used to be one, but it didn't work for me". Was she saved? I'm sure she thought so initially. Did she lose her salvation? Was she ever saved in the first place?"

If she does not have faith anymore, her faith was not from God. She was never saved and her lack of true saving faith was manifest to us.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, ("but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" 1 John 2:19.
---Luke on 3/4/16


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//Is that really how you understand (2 Corinthians 2:13)?//
Christ sent Paul as His witness to originate the boC
Luke 16:29-31 How many witnesses does it take?
John 13:20, Acts 9 Jesus sent a witness.
Paul was a witness to the church at Corinth on three occasions
1 Cor 3:6 Apollos was a witness
1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
---michael_e on 3/4/16


Mark_Eaton:

The blog poster should care, as the issue is central to the blog question itself. If I feel saved because I am actually saved, I am not in any danger of losing my salvation. But if I feel saved because I am deluded, or because I am caught up in the momentary frenzy of zeal of a new convert whose zeal eventually runs out, maybe I'm not actually saved at all.

Years ago, I picked up a stranded woman and her daughter on the highway and drove them to a gas station. The girl asked me, "You're a Christian, aren't you?". I said I was. She said "I used to be one, but it didn't work for me". Was she saved? I'm sure she thought so initially. Did she lose her salvation? Was she ever saved in the first place?
---StrongAxe on 3/3/16


Paul witnessed to these people THREE times
---michael_e on 3/3/16

Michael
Is that really how you understand (2 Corinthians 2:13)?
"By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established"

I hope your not a Lawyer. Because if you go to court with one witness, and have that person witness to the court three times, your clients going to get the chair.
---David on 3/4/16


Josef, you are correct. We are not saved by anything we do. It is an act of God. Unbelievers do not have faith. So they cannot come to Christ. We are saved by God's grace through faith. The faith we receive is forever because it comes from God. The faith people lose is not true faith. It does not come from God. God does not lose anyone He saves. They are the called ones. God draws the sinner to Himself and turns them to Christ. And He will never lose one of those who are called by God. No matter what happens in our lives, we will always have faith in God.
---Luke on 3/4/16


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The problem is, all four kinds of hearers believe they are "true believers". How can one know which is which?
---StrongAxe on 3/2/16

Who cares which is which?

We are not supposed to judge which are which and we are not supposed to compare ourselves with other believers.

We are to be imitators of Christ. He loved people just as they were, right where they were. We should do no less. However, as God, Jesus did commend them to "go and sin no more".

We also must not compare ourselves to other Believers to see if we measure up. We know by the HS leading, if we are right with Jesus and if we are obedient to His leading. The HS bears us this witness.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/3/16


//why would he say what he did in (Romans 2:5-7),//
A good study of Romans 1, 2, 3 show three different groups chap. 1 immoral people
chap. 2 moral people
chap. 3 religious people.
all 3 explained in Rom 3:23
Nothing about losing salvation
//"God will judge us according to our Works"?//
you think you are part of or have replaced Israel?
//"Two or Three witnesses"//
Paul witnessed to these people THREE times
---michael_e on 3/3/16


If we are saved by our FAITH, then what happens if we lose our faith? Strongaxe, the believer is saved by the grace of "God", and the faith of Jesus, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sets in the complete power and authority of the Father. Therefore, here's is the enduring constancy and steadfastness of the believer who keep the commandments of the Father to love, and embraces the faith of Jesus, we understand that being justified by faith, we have peace, and the assurance of salvation through our Lord Jesus, the Christ, and that salvation has nothing to do with us, it is entirely of Him. We believe by Him, the born again experience is of Him, and we are redeemed through Him.
---Josef on 3/3/16


Michael
Good point, if that's was the true context of Paul's words. If this is what Paul meant, why would he say what he did in (Romans 2:5-7), where he says, " Eternal Life, is the reward for Good Works"?

Or what about (Revelation 20:12-13), where it says "God will judge us according to our Works"?

Paul also wrote in (2 Corinthians 13:1) the word of God should be established by the mouth of "Two or Three witnesses". Do you have any other witnesses in the Bible, which confirm's your belief about "Works" was Pauls meaning?
---David on 3/3/16


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michael_e:

You wrote: Paul repeatedly teaches that it is not by our own works that we are saved. It follows that if we are not saved by works of righteousness then we can't lose our salvation

This doesn't necessarily follow. If we aren't saved by our WORKS, then we can't lose our salvation by our WORKS either, but that doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation.

If we are saved by our FAITH, then what happens if we lose our faith? Wouldn't we lose our salvation also? There are many people who believe at some point in their lives, but lose their faith later in life.
---StrongAxe on 3/3/16


Paul repeatedly teaches that it is not by our own works that we are saved. It follows that if we are not saved by works of righteousness then we can't lose our salvation Our faith alone would be of no effect for salvation only if God was not able to fulfill that which he promised (Rom 4:21). This is unbelief.
If we are saved by grace and then determine that we can lose our justified status simply by not acting obediently or following after righteousness then we are in essence rejecting the cross, ignoring what Christ came to do. We are also denying our present position in our crucified flesh combating its temptations daily.
---michael_e on 3/2/16


Mark_Eaton:

The problem is, all four kinds of hearers believe they are "true believers". How can one know which is which? Someone might be a fruitful Christian, but later in life be subject to difficulties more than he can deal with (e.g. financial problems, health issues, family problems, life drama, etc.), where in retrospect someone might say "Oh, he must have been one of the seeds beset by thorns". I frequently encounter people in difficult situations. I have also frequently encountered brand new believers who are so full of zeal (combined with a lack of knowledge and wisdom) that they would certainly classify themselves as "true believers", yet they have all the appearance of seeds growing on rocky soil.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/16


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