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Christians That Are Masons

Should Christians belong to organizations like the Masons?

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 ---trey on 2/29/16
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clunity: Are all faux-orthodox liars or just you? Do all faux-orthodox teach disobedience to the Ten Commandments? So you're dead to me now? R.I.P.

Glory to the REAL Jesus Christ - the Creator and Author of the Ten Commandments.



---jerry6593 on 3/27/16


clunity: Are all faux-orthodox liars or just you? Do all faux-orthodox teach disobedience to the Ten Commandments? So you're dead to me now? R.I.P.

Glory to the REAL Jesus Christ - the Creator and Author of the Ten Commandments.



---jerry6593 on 3/27/16


jeery, when you stop spouting psychobabble and say something substantive, I'll reply to you.

Until then, you're dead to me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/24/16


cluny: Why don't you stop playing juvenile games and man up. Apologize!



---jerry6593 on 3/22/16


\\I am glad that you can let us know what the orthodox teach.\\

My pleasure.

Some people think they know, but have no idea, as you frequently see here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/16




Thank you Cluny.

I am glad that you can let us know what the orthodox teach.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/16


The Orthodox Church has never said it's a re-crucifixion of Jesus.

Admittedly, that was the devotional interpretation of the Mass that for centuries many Roman Catholics believed, but oddly enough was never said in any of the official prayers of the Mass.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/16


cluny: "Why? Apologize to you because YOU didn't recognize I was talking about the Bible to start with?"

NO. Book-Schmook. Apologize because YOU LIED when you said:

"And in typical jerry fashion, he doesn't quote the rest of the verse."

The verse I quoted (John 14:15) was the entire verse in the KJV.

Why don't you stop playing juvenile games and man up. Apologize!


After all, I apologized to you for calling you a Democrat rather than a liberal Republican.



---jerry6593 on 3/19/16


Samuel BB said, "Mark Eaton is correct. It is symbolic only and is not a re-Crucifixion of Jesus.'

The Eucharist is not (and never has been) a re-Crucifixion of Jesus!

By any of the Divine Liturgies of any of the Churches of Apostolic Origin we are brought to the original Last Supper and Crucifixion! All who partake of this heavenly Food "whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)
---Monk_Brendan on 3/18/16


Good comeback cluny.

Great point Darlene.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16




Mark Eaton you need not answer me reading your post again I see where you are coming from because the Bible says it proclaims Christs death but even though it may proclaim Christs death the remembrance in the wine and in the bread is to remember Christ since He said do this in remembrance of me.
---Darlene_1 on 3/18/16


No, SamuelBB7. That is your view based on your church affiliation.

The bread becomes the Body of Christ, and the wine becomes His blood.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/16


No Monk Brendan that is your view based on your church affiliation. The Bread is still bread and the wine is still wine.

Mark Eaton is correct. It is symbolic only and is not a re-Crucifixion of Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


Mark Eaton is the Bread and Wine symbols to remember Christ's death or to remember He lives? Christ didn't say remember His death He said do this in remembrance of me therefore it is not His death that we need to remember is it,but His life that He still lives? His death was once and final but He lived and now lives forevermore.
---Darlene_1 on 3/18/16


However, it is no symbol. according to the Bible, the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of Christ.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/17/16

There is most definitely symbolism in the Eucharist.

Jesus said "do this in remembrance of Me" which is performing an action to demonstrate or stimulate your memory of the person. A similar act is taking flowers to a grave of a loved one. The act with the symbol or token (flowers) shows your love for the person.

Jesus also said "for as often as you do eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lords death till he comes". This is clearly symbolism. The Eucharist in itself is not the death of Jesus. However, it acts as a symbol to remember His real death by.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/16


Mark Eaton said, "I agree with you. There is Spiritual and symbolic reality to the Eucharist."

You are on the right path. However, it is no symbol. according to the Bible, the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of Christ.

That, also, must be spiritually discerned.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/17/16


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cluny: "Why? Apologize to you because YOU didn't recognize I was talking about the Bible to start with?"

NO. Book-Schmook. Apologize because YOU LIED when you said:

"And in typical jerry fashion, he doesn't quote the rest of the verse."

The verse I quoted (John 14:15) was the entire verse in the KJV.

Why don't you stop playing juvenile games and man up. Apologize!


---jerry6593 on 3/18/16


I used to be a Mason but left it when I realized that it was basically an old organization that provided old men something to do. They really have no other worthwhile purpose. As to their beliefs, it is a matter of interpretation and they leave that to you.
---Riolion on 3/17/16


\\I shall expect an apology from you.\\

Why?

Apologize to you because YOU didn't recognize I was talking about the Bible to start with?

Ok. I'll apologize.

I'm sorry you're so dense, jerry. I promise to try to make things simpler when I talk to you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


cluny: "And in typical jerry fashion, he doesn't quote the rest of the verse."

Are you off your meds again? The verse I quoted (John 14:15) was the entire verse in the KJV. So, the "other book" you would send me could not be the Bible. What version are you using? The Revised Cluny Version?

I shall expect an apology from you.



---jerry6593 on 3/17/16


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\\Now I could believe you or I could believe the Bible. I think I'll go with the Bible, and you can keep your book.\\

The book I was talking about was the Bible.

I though you had enough sense to get that, jerry, but I guess I overestimated you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/16/16


And in typical jerry fashion, he doesn't quote the rest of the verse.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/16/16


cluny: "Jesus never said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments, and I will send you a book that everyone can interpret for himself and come up with conflicting interpretations, which are all true."

My KJV Bible says:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Now I could believe you or I could believe the Bible. I think I'll go with the Bible, and you can keep your book.



---jerry6593 on 3/16/16


\\Other people in the RCC and Orthodox disagree with you. ....\\

"Substance", and it fellow-term "accidents" have a non-physical meaning in this context. (And the Orthodox Church has never committed herself to "transubstantiation" as a way of describing the manner of the Change. Nor have many Eastern Catholic Churches.

Now, I have a special question to ask jerry:

Is regeneration (the new birth) something that can be determined physically, by the scientific process, or by laboratory analysis?

If not, then how do you know or prove it has actually taken place in a person?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/16


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Correct mark eaton thanks
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


This is a spiritual change, and must be discerned spiritually.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/14/16

If this were so, then the term "transubstantiation" would not be used.

Other people in the RCC and Orthodox disagree with you. They say that there is more than something Spiritual happening here, there is substance and elemental transfer happening and this transfer is undetectable.

I agree with you. There is Spiritual and symbolic reality to the Eucharist.

However, I do not agree with Transubstantiation or the transfer of substance and elements.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/15/16


What continuously recharges the church is the word of God and the Holy spirit.
We are to hide Gods word in our hearts so that we might not sin against God.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


Cluny states, "Jesus never said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments, and I will send you a book that everyone can interpret for himself and come up with conflicting interpretations, which are all true."

Well sir, Irenaeus disagrees with your statement and would find it heretical


"Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all , although all do not believe them ... those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]...(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 27.2).
---john9346 on 3/15/16


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Mark Eaton said, "No one can describe "if' the elements have been changed. No one can describe how the elements have been changed. And no one can describe why the elements have been changed."

If a priest has celebrated the Divine Liturgy according to what the Church intends, then the change HAS happened. There is no IF.

The elements are changed by the action of the Holy Spirit at the prayer of the priest or bishop. This is a spiritual change, and must be discerned spiritually. Read 1Cor 11:27.

The WHY is that the Church needs to be continually recharged, fed, ministered to, so that the message of the Church can go forth loud and strong
---Monk_Brendan on 3/14/16


explain to me in plain English what "Real Presence" is or how it magically transforms ordinary bread and wine into human flesh and blood...
---jerry6593 on 3/14/16

From what I have determined thru my studying and conversations about this subject is:

There is no scientific way to determine how the elements are changed, there is only belief and faith.

No one can describe "if' the elements have been changed. No one can describe how the elements have been changed. And no one can describe why the elements have been changed.

All they know is that the elements have been changed.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/14/16


\\monk: Since cluny is unable to explain to me in plain English what "Real Presence" is or how it magically transforms ordinary bread and wine into human flesh and blood, perhaps you can.\\

As I've told you, it's not mere human flesh and blood.

It's the resurrected Body and Blood of Christ, and it happens by the Holy Spirit.

But I doubt you'll be able to understand this.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/14/16


Jerry said, "monk: Since cluny is unable to explain to me in plain English what "Real Presence" is or how it magically transforms ordinary bread and wine into human flesh and blood, perhaps you can."

The Real Presence is not made by magical means. The change is actually done by the Holy Spirit. It is miraculous. Nobody knows HOW He does it, we just know that he does.

Because it is a spiritual, miraculous change, it cannot be perceived by physical means. The Body still looks like bread, and the Blood still looks like wine. However, that does not mean that the Miracle of the change is not real.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/14/16


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monk: Since cluny is unable to explain to me in plain English what "Real Presence" is or how it magically transforms ordinary bread and wine into human flesh and blood, perhaps you can.


---jerry6593 on 3/14/16


Jerry said, "Then how is it discerned? Psychically? Or is it discerned at all? Maybe it's just pretend, or even self-hypnosis."

Jerry, you constantly mouth "psychobabble" as if that is supposed to make everyone agree with you.

You and Cluny have been fighting on these blogs for almost all the time I have been here. All you are really doing is generating sound and fury meaning nothing. Grow up, or take your bat and ball and go home.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/12/16


\\"Yes Monk Brendan. But was he speaking in a spiritual sense or a literal sense?" \\

Don't forget that "spiritual" does not mean "symbolic" or "allegorical".

Spiritual things are just as literal as physical things.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/16


Samuel BB said, "Yes Monk Brendan. But was he speaking in a spiritual sense or a literal sense?" I believe it is both. The bread and wine do truly become the Body and Blood of Christ, but these things are discerned spiritually.

No matter how fussy a study of the bread and wine before consecration and after, there will never be a physical difference. The difference is spiritual, and can only be discerned spiritually.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/12/16


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\\Then how is it discerned? Psychically? Or is it discerned at all? Maybe it's just pretend, or even self-hypnosis.
\\

More psychobabble, I see.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, jerry, but I don't expect you to understand that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/16


cluny: "it's not something that [sic] be discerned physically"

Then how is it discerned? Psychically? Or is it discerned at all? Maybe it's just pretend, or even self-hypnosis.


---jerry6593 on 3/12/16


\\Just how does that happen? Is there any physical evidence of this or is it just psychobabble?\\

Since, as I said earlier on this matter, it's not something that be discerned physically, YOU are the one just spouting psychobabble, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/16


\\Both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Communion of Churches belief that both Scripture and Tradition are important. \\

To be more precise, the Orthodox view is Scripture WITHIN tradition.

Jesus never said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments, and I will send you a book that everyone can interpret for himself and come up with conflicting interpretations, which are all true.

Glory to jesus Christ!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/16


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Yes Monk Brendan. But was he speaking in a spiritual sense or a literal sense?

You believe it to be literal and I believe it to be spiritual. Just as when he said.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The Church is built on Jesus, the prophets and Apostles.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

But Jesus is not a rock. But in the Old Testament GOD is often called a rock.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/11/16


Samuel BB said, " Yes Cluny lots of scriptures because when we discussed this previously I posted many Scriptures. But your point was that the leaders decided not scripture."

How about Jesus deciding? It was Jesus that said, "This is my Body...This is my Blood."

Jesus is not only a wonderful example of a Christian leader, but what He said is also written in scripture.

How many Scriptures do you want?

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/11/16


Samuel BB said, "By your understanding Cluny you are correct.

But then you take tradition as being above scripture. Just like the Jews in the days of Jesus."


Samuel, unfortunately, that is incorrect. Both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Communion of Churches belief that both Scripture and Tradition are important. Remember, it was the traditions of the Church that brought us the Bible, and had monks carefully copying it down, letter by letter for centuries. It wasn't until the 4th century that the Bible was even codified. Without tradition, where would that leave us? No Scripture at all.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/11/16


cluny: "The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist takes place at the consecration."

Just how does that happen? Is there any physical evidence of this or is it just psychobabble?



---jerry6593 on 3/11/16


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\\So? The stuff is still grape juice - only rotted. You still haven't told us when the "real presence" is put in, or how.\\

First off, rotted wine is called VINEGAR. Did you know that?

Fermentation is not rot. What do you think yogurt or sour cream is?

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist takes place at the consecration.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/16


cluny: "Actually, jerry, fermentation begins the minute the grapes are squeezed. Did you know that?"

So? The stuff is still grape juice - only rotted. You still haven't told us when the "real presence" is put in, or how.



---jerry6593 on 3/10/16


\\Apparently you're not aware that wine is made from the juice of grapes. Or perhaps you've found a way to bottle only the "real presence" of the grape.\\

I'll bet you think you're a wit, jerry.

You're half right.

Actually, jerry, fermentation begins the minute the grapes are squeezed. Did you know that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/16


Cluny I didn't really believe you did but it sounded that way therefore I wrote it that way. That is why I asked. I read you wrong.
---Darlene_1 on 3/9/16


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\\Yes Cluny lots of scriptures because when we discussed this previously I posted many Scriptures. But your point was that the leaders decided not scripture.

Well, YOUR leaders decided to have Communion only once every three months. On the basis of what scripture?

\\Jesus is the rock on cornerstone of the Church. Like many other times it is an analogy not literal\\

Then so is the Decalogue.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/16


cluny: "And we Orthodox use neither grape juice nor crackers, as these would be invalid matter."

"What Jesus used: bread and wine."

Apparently you're not aware that wine is made from the juice of grapes. Or perhaps you've found a way to bottle only the "real presence" of the grape.



---jerry6593 on 3/9/16


\\Cluny please help me understand you believe the only real presence of God is in the Bread and Wine taken to remember Christ?\\

I cannot explain to you why I believe that because that's not what I believe.

Why did you say I did?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/16


Yes Cluny lots of scriptures because when we discussed this previously I posted many Scriptures. But your point was that the leaders decided not scripture.

Jesus is the rock on cornerstone of the Church. Like many other times it is an analogy not literal.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/8/16


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Cluny please help me understand you believe the only real presence of God is in the Bread and Wine taken to remember Christ?
---Darlene_1 on 3/8/16


\\So what do you use? Dead animals?



---jerry6593 on 3/8/16\\

What Jesus used: bread and wine.

++But unless you can show me you are correct from scripture. I cannot agree with you.
++

Samuel, please look at the previous postings on this issue. There are lots of scripture there.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/16


cluny: "And we Orthodox use neither grape juice nor crackers, as these would be invalid matter."

So what do you use? Dead animals?



---jerry6593 on 3/8/16


Darlene said, "Unless you are a Mason you don't know what they believe and follow. My Brother-in-law who was a Christian left them when he found out more about them,he thought they were bad. He's dead I can't ask why besides he wouldn't talk about them."

My father was a Mason. He wouldn't talk about any of the secrets either. It seems strange that if something is so friendly, so open, that a father will not talk to his son about it, maybe it is not so friendly or open.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/7/16


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By your understanding Cluny you are correct.

But then you take tradition as being above scripture. Just like the Jews in the days of Jesus.

I don't want to nor care to trade insults. So I love you and wish you well. But unless you can show me you are correct from scripture. I cannot agree with you.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/7/16


\\cluny: The REAL presence of Christ implies there is a FALSE presence of Christ.\\

Not at all.

And we Orthodox use neither grape juice nor crackers, as these would be invalid matter.

So of course, SDAs don't have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/7/16


cluny: The REAL presence of Christ implies there is a FALSE presence of Christ. I think you may have them confused. To claim that Christ is REALLY present in grape juice or a cracker rather than in the heart as Darlene expressed, can only be described as ....

PSYCHOBABBLE!



---jerry6593 on 3/7/16


\\Cluny I don't mean to dispute your word but to me the real presence of Christ is with me always.\\

Darlene, I'm talking about what Jesus said, and we know this by faith, not by feelings.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/6/16


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\\And I have been told they have a secret communication signal so they can identify one another even if they are strangers to each other.\\

These are the grips of the various degrees--mistakenly called "handshakes" by outsiders. The hands are not shaken.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/6/16


Cluny I don't mean to dispute your word but to me the real presence of Christ is with me always. I feel his presence with His anointing when I pray for someone,when I am praising and worshiping Him,when I study His Word,and many other ways His anointing rests upon me even in the still sweet peace of just knowing He is with me always. Just resting in Him with contentment.
---Darlene_1 on 3/6/16


jerry, i've noticed you call everything you cannot understand "psychobabble."

It's easy to ridicule what you cannot grasp.

Did you say the same thing about the multiplication table?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/6/16


cluny: "Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist"

Yet another example of psychobabble!



---jerry6593 on 3/6/16


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If a group wants you to take an oath to uphold and protect things you don't know about, I would not do this.

I have been told that Masons have secret things, plus at least one oath you take. I would not take any oath which does not make clear what is involved.

And I have been told they have a secret communication signal so they can identify one another even if they are strangers to each other. Well, if this means, too, that they will go out of their way to help each other when one is wrong . . . it is not good to somehow cover up for or assist someone in doing what is wrong.
---Bill on 3/5/16


---Darlene_1 on 3/4/16. Understood.
---joseph on 3/4/16


\\Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.\\

That's for sure.

If there is any doubt, just look at what Trav and others have said about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/5/16


Unless you are a Mason you don't know what they believe and follow. My Brother-in-law who was a Christian left them when he found out more about them,he thought they were bad. He's dead I can't ask why besides he wouldn't talk about them. I have heard many times if you are a Non Mason and know Mason's secrets they will kill you. I don't know if it's true or just fear talking. Seems awfully strange that it would be that serious. One thing I've heard there are many Degrees you go through in Masons and what if you don't know until way into it that it is really anti Christ,just wondering out loud. I know this a man and wife are meant to be one and united but Mason secrets split them ,any secrets do.
---Darlene_1 on 3/4/16


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But a Christian is to live openly and for JESUS. We are not to be secretive about anything.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16

You are openly a representative of the confused doctrines of men ( & E.W) today. Not understanding the "secretive" reason Christ spoke in Parables. You live "openly" for Ellen...and your doctrines. Seldom if ever posting Christ's words here. You can't they oppose your doctrines.
Mat_10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
---Trav on 3/3/16


You are correct. They make no religious demands beyond belief in a higher power. But they also pledge to keep secrets of their fraternity.

I just disagree with them that they should be a member and swear to keep secrets.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


"A Christian is to live openly and for JESUS. We are not to be secretive about anything. A Christian needs to show an open life filled with God's love and Spirit." Samuel, Darlene, what makes you think that the secrets kept by freemasons are related to religious beliefs? Or that they have anything to do with religion. Jesus simply said Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. How would joining freemasonry prevent a "Christian" from allowing this? The reasons I ask these questions is because I know nothing about the fraternity except that which I have read. And nothing that I have read opposes any religious beliefs or expressions.
---joseph on 3/3/16


I agree that Christians should not be Mason. But not because I do't trust Masons. Most are good honest people and many of the founders of the United States were Masons.

But a Christian is to live openly and for JESUS. We are not to be secretive about anything.

AGape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/3/16


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Monk Brendan is completely correct. Masons are too secret to trust. That may be part of their organization but a Christian needs to show an open life filled with God's love and Spirit. The Bible says the things done in the dark will be brought to the light,that tells me nothing should be so secretive in a Christians life.
---Darlene_1 on 3/2/16


"Should Christians belong to organizations like the Masons?"
I don't see why not. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion.

Monk Brendan, you wrote. "ABSOLUTELY NOT! The Masons are far too fuzzy. They say that you have to believe in some god, but you could just as easily believe in Kali or Shiva, and still believe in something." This simply shows a tolerance for another man religious beliefs, It does not imply that those beliefs must be embraced. A Christian should be grounded enough in his own beliefs, not to be adversely affected by another's. If he is not, then your are correct, he should not join, for he's open to being influence, and swayed by one who may not believe that Jesus is only Way.
---joseph on 3/1/16


ABSOLUTELY NOT! The Masons are far too fuzzy. They say that you have to believe in some god, but you could just as easily believe in Kali or Shiva, and still believe in something.

Christians don't need a lower case god, nor does the world. Jesus is the only God that the world needs and deserves.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 2/29/16


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