ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Paul Versus Jesus

Paul vs Jesus teaching Comparing Romans 10:4-6 to Matthew 5:17-19. Since some people have started a new topic on another blog I started it here.

Join Our Christian Friendship and Take The Who Is Paul Bible Quiz
 ---Scott1 on 3/3/16
     Helpful Blog Vote (3)

Post a New Blog



CLUNY. The sin that besets us (Heb 12:1) refers to the sin the world is convicted of, which is unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9). If you're under the law then that's unbelief (Gal 3:3,12, Rom 11:6).

LUKE. You read 1John 1 incorrectly which not only fails to deal with your contradiction of 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 8:33, 1Pet 4:18. Gal 2:15, etc, but also fails to deal with those other questions I asked you. Can you answer my questions about habitual sin?

DAVID. Rom 7 speaks of a war going on in us. Note Rom 7:25 on how we are delivered. When we believe on Jesus we are walking in the SPIRIT (Rom 8:9).
But those walking in the flesh are those preaching works of the law (which is unbelief as the law is NOT OF FAITH Gal 3:12, Rom 11:6).
---Haz27 on 3/21/16


Remember Rom 8:33 Who shall lay ANYTHING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?
---Haz27 on 3/20/16

The problem with your doctrine, Haz, David, and Joseph, is just this Scripture.

Who will lay a charge against Gods elect??

YOU DO.

Look at what David has said. We who tell the truth about our sin must be lost because we struggle with sin.

Are you really without sin? I agree with Samuel, that you do not consider your actions sin and therefore, lie to yourself.

What about these words, are they sin? Arrogant, boastful, proud, quarrelsome, stiff-necked, and self-righteous.

You seem to be exhibiting these characteristics.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/21/16


How many times does Jesus say to keep his commandments plural? Read John again all of it. Read 1 John all of it.

Read Romans 13.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/21/16


Notice also in (Hebrews 10:4), we are given the limitation of the animal sacrifice, and the reason God no longer accepts the animal sacrifice.
A limitation, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ doesn't have. This is also the very reason God changed the Law.

That reason, Jesus Christ can take away sin. What do you think the words "Take away" mean, as applied to our Lords Sacrifice? I ask because most folks think it is about atonement and forgiveness, both of which were given through the animal sacrifice.
---David on 3/21/16


the only sin that remains for the people of the world, is unbelief---Joseph.

Amen, Joseph.

Jesus tells us that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in him, John 16:9.

Jesus also tells us that the works we are to do is to believe on him, John 6:29.

Jesus also tells us that the will of God is that we believe on him whom He has sent, John 6:40.

Therefore we must not preach deeds of the law because the law is NOT OF FAITH, Gal 3:12.
We cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
This is unbelief, the sin the world is convicted of.
---Haz27 on 3/20/16




\\ As previously shown, there's no habitual sin. That's why the habitual sin doctrine cannot explain away its contradictions and inconsist\\

And just what do you think "besetting sin" (from the phrase "sin that doth so easily beset us") means, anyway?

Or have you even heard the term?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/21/16


Haz, I'm sorry to disappoint you but in 1 John 1:2-4 Paul is talking to believers. In fact it is about believers, the "we" and the "Us" in those passages is the church. The life was manifest, and we have seen it," the "we" have seen it, not unbelievers. He later says, "this things we write to you, that your joy may be full." those are the believers he is writing to. Sorry Haz, you have to do better then that. Read it again.
---Luke on 3/21/16


Folks
You have all experienced what Paul wrote in (Romans 7:14-20), proof that you are servants of sin, but few of you, if any, have experience with what Paul wrote in (Romans 7:7-11).

What Paul is saying in (Romans 7:7-11) is this. God has given you a commandment to keep, and God has made you responsible for keeping it. He has given you this commandment, to show you, you are a servant of sin.

Is there a sin in your life, a sin above all other sins, you try to keep? And you try your very best to keep it, because you know God will punish you every time you break it?

This is the commandment Paul is referring to in (Romans 7:8-12). And I have experienced what he says there, and so can you.
---David on 3/21/16


Luke. As previously shown, there's no habitual sin. That's why the habitual sin doctrine cannot explain away its contradictions and inconsistencies.

Can you show BCV detailing what is HABITUAL sin?
Is wilfull sin (Heb 10:26) habitual sin? After all habit is formed after multiple wilfull decisions to do an act.

BTW, 1John 1:8 refers to the unsaved as context shows. 1John 1:2-4 declares/bears witness, eternal life/salvation so that others may have fellowship with the Father and His Son. bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life.....,we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with.....the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

BTW, what sin (BCV) are you charging against Christians?
---Haz27 on 3/20/16


Luke you quote 1Jo 1:8 Please share your reason for believing this is a reference applied to those who walk in the light. There are two groups of people referenced in the chapter, and John is addressing and identifying with both groups in his teaching. Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in darkness. Those who are in fellowship, and those who are not. Those in fellowship, and walk in the light, are cleansed from all sin, verse 7. Those not in fellowship and claiming no sin in their life deceive themselves. Those who claim that they have never sinned, whether they consider themselves in fellowship or not,(those truly in fellowship would never make this claim), make Him a liar, for His word clearly states all have sinned.
---joseph on 3/20/16




"Remember Rom 8:33 Who shall lay ANYTHING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?" Amen Haz. Jesus is the lamb of God who took away the sin of the 'world',(which means, any human being on this planet that believes this, believes on Him, and confesses Him as Lord, has had their sin lifted from them). Therefore the only sin that remains for the people of the world, is unbelief, and that is the sin that the world is convicted of, for they are missing the mark of the high calling of God, In Christ, which is to 'believe', [trust in, and totally rely on] the Savior He sent, having no confidence in the 'flesh', as that which one may think one can do, or not do in ones own strength or ability based on externals perceptions.
---joseph on 3/20/16


Joseph, good scripture references confirming that Christians cannot sin.

Samuel. Whilst no Christian is perfect in physical behavior, the SPIRITUAL REALITY is that WE CANNOT SIN.
Why?
Because I no longer live but Christ lives in me Gal 2:20.
Our life is hid with Christ in God Col 3:3.
Thus we're covered by Christ's sinlessness.
As these scriptures confirm, Christians are in Christ. And in Christ there is NO SIN, 1John 3:5.
To say a Christian sins is to say that there is sin in Christ.

Remember Rom 8:33 Who shall lay ANYTHING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?
---Haz27 on 3/20/16


Why are these translations of scripture so hard to receive?
---joseph on 3/20/16


Joseph
The reason is experience. If they have not experienced what the bible teaches, they refute it's truth. This is why we have so many translations of the bible, changes make it better fit the false doctrine.

They can call themselves sinners, but can not call themselves what Jesus called them,....servants of sin. This is the very reason they haven't experienced the death of sin in their lives.

Unfortunately they will probably learn the truth on judgment day, but by then, the truth will do them no good.
---David on 3/20/16


David, you ask:
"You all make the claim you are Gods servants, how does sin serve God?"

David, You must mean "How does a sinner saved by grace serves God?" We serve by telling everyone the Truth. Even though we tell them the truth, it is God who has to open their hearts. All we are to do is just tell them the truth. And the truth is that everyone is a sinner before God, and I mean everyone. For no one is without sin.
---Luke on 3/20/16


Joseph, those passages are hard to receive when someone takes them out of context.
In 1 John conveys the idea of habitual sin or practice sin, Since we are not slaves of sin anymore. Verse 3:4 Commits sin, the verb (commit) in the Gr. conveys the idea of making sin a habitual practice. John had already told us if we sin we have an Advocate, so He did not mean that believers do not sin, only that we should not make a practice of sinning. He says in 1 John 1:8:
"If we say that we have no sin, (here "we" is the believers) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in "us" The word of God is in every believer. "If we say we that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us"
---Luke on 3/20/16


"The Bible does not say Christians can't sin. That is a misuse of scripture. Which has been pointed out."
You are absolutely correct Samuel, scripture reads, and I quote, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." KJV
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." NKJV
"No one born of God commits sin, for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God." Why are these translations of scripture so hard to receive?
---joseph on 3/20/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Settlement


When we sin it does not serve God. Which is why we are to repent and die to self.

The Bible does not say Christians can't sin. That is a misuse of scripture. Which has been pointed out.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/16


I've encountered this doctrine David offers before.

They claim they "cannot sin" (that is they're perfect in physical behaviour). Most claim they have not yet attained this but are believing they will eventually get there after going through periods of success and failure.
Occasionally you find one who does think they have attained a consistent, long term perfection in behavior. I recall one of these self professing "perfect" people being confronted about his obvious abuse.
Also, Obfuscation seems to be a trademark tactic they use in selling their doctrine.

The reality is they're mixing works of the law with grace. Their doctrine alleges we're not saved until you attain perfection in physical behavior.
---Haz27 on 3/19/16


So which is it? Are you without sin? ---Luke on 3/19/16

Luke
I have answered your question, how about answering one of mine.

You all make the claim you are Gods servants, how does sin serve God?
---David on 3/19/16


David, well said.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48. Jesus would not tell anyone to be perfect if it was impossible to do nor would He say the following unless it was possible to rid ourselves of sin. "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cast it from you for it is profitable to you that one of your members should perish and not that your whole body should be cast into Hell."

"He who overcomes, shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be my son". Rev.21:7-8. Jesus overcame sin and He tells us to do the same. Rev 3:21.
---barb on 3/19/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Distance Learning


David, you keep saying you do not sin, and that would make you perfect, and you are not. Do not be deceived. For John also said, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"
The Truth is Jesus Christ. Remember, "He is the way, the Truth, and the life."
Also, if you could not sin, you would be the only one without an Advocate. And He is Jesus. You would not have Jesus. So which is it? Are you without sin? All genuine believers have Christ. So you are really saying you are perfect like Jesus so you don't need Him. You found a new way to into heaven. Just not possible. People have to watch out for you. You will be teaching them a punch of lies.
---Luke on 3/19/16


Do you now see why we hesitate to believe you?
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/16


Mark
Do you really want to believe me?
I have never said I was made perfect. Notice how you folks have to say things I didn't say, to make me sound like a liar?

Being born of God does not make you perfect, it just removes the stumbling block which made you a slave of sin, and transforms you into Gods servant.

According to Jesus Christ in (John 8:34), how do we know if we are a servant of sin?
Why don't you believe him?

You see it's not me who disputes the word of God, it's all of you.
---David on 3/19/16


David says it's impossible for him to sin.

The Bible says

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Who is right? David or the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/16


David you said you are without sin. I was pointing out that is one of two ways.

One is to say that you never commit a sin by breaking the law. That is what Jesus did.

The other is to say that nothing I do is a sin. Which is the way that I pointed out. You see when a person lies they commit a sin. Why because we are sinners. But JESUS makes us righteous and sets before us the goal to be like him and not commit sins.

So the question is not are you a sinner. All humans except Jesus have sinned and are sinner.

But do you ever break any of the Ten Commandments or not treat other in love?

I know you believe they don't apply to you. But that is a different conversation.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


Send a Free Valentine's Day Ecard


According to what you folks have come to believe, (1 John 3:9) should read,
"Those who are born of God occasionally sin, they occasionally sin because the seed of God remains in them, and they occasionally sin because they have been born of God."

Vs. what I say, and it actually says.

"Whoever is born of God can not sin, for his seed remains in him. And he can not sin because he has been born of God."

Now which teaching is Blasphemy, yours or mine?
---David on 3/18/16


Yes, I have overcome sin. It's not a boast, it's a fact.
---David on 3/18/16

Funny, but even the Apostle Paul was unable to say that:

Phil 3:12 "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus"

According to you, you have been made perfect, in the flesh. You are sanctified fully, just as the rest of us will be as we stand before the Judgment.

Do you now see why we hesitate to believe you?
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/16


What the main problem I have is that this statement of never committing a sin is a lie. ---Samuelbb7 on 3/17/16

Samuel
I didn't say, "I have never sinned".
See how you change words to fit what you want to hear? You do the same with the Bible. I'm merely trying to open your eyes to that fact.

Let me remind you folks of something you are missing. Jesus Christ is the greatest example of one born of God.
Did he occasionally sin, as your doctrines teach?
---David on 3/18/16


Do you really believe that?
---Monk_Brendan on 3/16/16


David said, "Absolutely, and it saddens me you don't. And the real question is why you don't...
Is it because you have not experienced what it says?"


I am a sinner! I am saved by God's Grace, but, being human, I still have a few imperfections (like lack of humility, for one).

One of the sayings of the Benedictine Monks is, when we sin, we fall down, but God gives us grace to get up, and we walk a bit more, fall down get up, and so on, until one day we get up on the other side of the Jordan.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/17/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Education


What the main problem I have is that this statement of never committing a sin is a lie.

Those who claim this still lie and break the laws of God. They just say nothing they do is a sin. So it is a fake sinlessness. It is based on a form of Calvinism and misinterpretation of one verse.

Christians recognize that were sinners but by grace alone we called saints. But we must die daily to live in love.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/17/16


David, are you saying you are without sin? ---Luke on 3/17/16

Luke
Yes, I have overcome sin. It's not a boast, it's a fact. I can not boast this fact, because I could not have overcome sin without the help of God. Believe me, I tried.

God removed the evil that caused me to sin, I didn't. Once that which caused me to sin, was removed, it became quite easy to be a slave of righteousness.

That's the bible backed experience of being born again. When born of woman, we are born a servant of sin. When born of God, we are born a servant of God.

Where does the Bible talk about the righteous sinner? Those who sin, and claim they are servants of a Holy Father. Those who sin, and claim they are born of a Holy Father?
---David on 3/18/16


David, whether you commit sin or not I would have no way of knowing.

But that would not mean that you still have no virtues to acquire, either.

Like humility.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


Do you really believe that?
Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/16/16


Absolutely, and it saddens me you don't. And the real question is why you don't.
(1John 3:9) Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Is it because you have not experienced what it says?
---David on 3/17/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Home Equity Loans


David, I admonish you to read the Lord's parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


David, are you saying you are without sin? Please make that clear so we know who we are talking to. The Bible tells us you are still a sinner, a sinner saved by the grace of God if you are indeed saved. I don't know. Because if you claim you have no sin, "You are deceived and the Truth is not in you. And again, if you say that you have not sinned, you make Him a liar and His word is not in you
So every time you answer, the truth is not in you, plus you call God a liar. That is very far from the gospel, maybe the reason you do Saturday Sabbath so everyone can think you are very holy.
---Luke on 3/17/16


David said, "I am a slave of righteousness, incapable of doing evil, just as the Bible proclaims of those born of God."

Do you really believe that?

1John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/16/16


David, you are a sinner yourself, do you hate God? Are or you saying you are not a sinner, that the other laws of God do not apply to you because you keep Saturday Sabbath?---Luke on 3/16/16

Luke
I was a sinner, Past tense.
I am a slave of righteousness, incapable of doing evil, just as the Bible proclaims of those born of God.

Just because you have not experienced the death of sin, sin which lives inside of everyone born of woman, don't let that make the bible a lie, and the lie you live, the truth.

Am I more worthy than you? No. I just followed the Holy Spirit, completely ignorant of men's doctrines. It took me at least 10 years to understand that's why God killed that in me, which caused me to sin.
---David on 3/16/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Interest Rates


All the ten commandments are in effect. Which if you had noticed I have often referred to Romans 13 which list the last five commandments.

Each day we are to die to self. We are to live in love to God and others.

We are to repent of our sins walk in love with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Those who don't do this are referenced in Matthew 25.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/16/16


It's not just a suggestion, it's the LAW
---Monk_Brendan on 3/15/16


Only It's the Law with a suspended sentence, a sentence, suspended until Judgment Day. (Romans 6:16)
---David on 3/16/16


Samuel, you keep speaking for the written letter of the law. And try to confuse passages that condemn individuals with passages that the believer is under. You won't stop because you believe in Saturday Sabbath. I asked you and David once if you were without sin. You have not answered me. Are you saying you keep all of the law? Are or you saying that the other laws don't apply to you because you do Saturday Sabbath?
Help me out. I am trying to understand why you keep one law and not keep all the other laws because I know you are a sinner for if you say you are not, then the truth is not in you, and if you claim you have not sin, you call God a liar. So which is it?
---Luke on 3/16/16


David, you say:
"Samuel
I agree, but wouldn't this also mean those who disobey these commandments, hate God?

Does the sinner show love, or hate for God?"


David, you are a sinner yourself, do you hate God? Are or you saying you are not a sinner, that the other laws of God do not apply to you because you keep Saturday Sabbath? So you go to church on Saturday and the rest of the time you are breaking the law. Because "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" 1 John 1:10.
---Luke on 3/16/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Internet Marketing


Correct those who live in sin hate GOD. But GOD considers indifference to others as hate. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


"If someone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar, for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen. this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also." 1 John 4:20,21
---josef on 3/15/16


David asked, "In (1 Corinthians 9:21), Paul says we are under the Law of Christ.
What is the Law of Christ? And if it's called the Law, don't we need to keep it?"


As I referenced in my last post on this blog, Matt 22:40 says, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

So if all of the Law and Prophets speak about loving God and loving our neighbor, we should do all we can to follow Jesus commands.

Matt 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

It's not just a suggestion, it's the LAW
---Monk_Brendan on 3/15/16


Thus those who love GOD and love others will obey out of love all the Ten Commandments. ---Samuelbb7

Samuel
I agree, but wouldn't this also mean those who disobey these commandments, hate God?

Does the sinner show love, or hate for God?
---David on 3/15/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Life Insurance


Agreed Monk Brendan.

Paul points this out in Romans 13:8,9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Pointing the last five of the Ten Commandments. Along with Ephesians 6:2

The first of the Ten Commandments deal with love of GOD. So obeying all those are part of loving GOD.

Thus those who love GOD and love others will obey out of love all the Ten Commandments.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/14/16


David asked, "In (1 Corinthians 9:21), Paul says we are under the Law of Christ.
What is the Law of Christ? And if it's called the Law, don't we need to keep it?"


Matt 22:36-40 says,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Yes, we should be keeping those two commandments.

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/13/16


Samuel, you are trying to bring confusion concerning the law. You are under the law when you make Saturday the Sabbath. That is the written letter of the law that the Christian is not under anymore.
They are under the Spirit of the Law. The commandments Jesus gave was love. The Spirit of the law is Love. Why is it Love, because Jesus is Love. When we love Others we are representing Jesus Christ who is within us. If we don't show that Love, we do not have Christ.
But you say, no, I want to be under the Letter of the Law.
And of course there has been many through history just like you.
---Luke on 3/14/16


Luke: "Jerry, because you follow the Sabbath law, you fight against the Spirit of the law. which is Ok by me."

Glad to hear that I have your approval, but your statement does not make sense to me. How can one "fight against the spirit of the Law" by obeying it? And relatedly, How can one keep the spirit of the Law by disobeying it? Do I keep the spirit of "Thou shalt not kill" by committing murder? Or do I keep the spirit of "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy" by keeping a false Sabbath?



---jerry6593 on 3/14/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Make Money


"What is the Law of Christ?" As Jesus said, "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
"And if it's called the Law, don't we need to keep it?" "Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: Love your neighbor as yourself.: But anyone who hates another, brother or sister, is still living and walking in darkness. Such a person does not know the way to go, having been blinded by the darkness. "
---josef on 3/13/16


In (1 Corinthians 9:21), Paul says we are under the Law of Christ.
What is the Law of Christ? And if it's called the Law, don't we need to keep it?
---David on 3/12/16


Matt 13:40-43." you and Samuel are not hearing. You want to remain under the Sabbath law, you are not the first. Luke

True there were Sabbath Keepers before our church existed. I listen to GOD, Follow the bible and the Spirit of the law which is love. Romans 6,13.

The law defines sin. Romans 3:20-31 I john.

So show me where my understanding of these passages and other are wrong. Present your Bible verses and let me show you I agree with the Bible but not your understanding.

I love to take the time to spend a day with my Father. It is like a little bit of heaven with the distraction I have at work.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/11/16


Christ YAHUSHUA is the ultimate in a Man living out the Laws of GOD in perfection, as GOD originally planned for mankind to do.
---Gordon on 3/11/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Rehab Treatments


Luke, I did quote scripture. I quoted the words of Jesus Christ from Matt 13:40-43, every word of it and put it in quotation marks so perhaps you are the one who cannot see or hear it.
---barb on 3/11/16


Jerry, because you follow the Sabbath law, you fight against the Spirit of the law. which is Ok by me. I say ok because we have present to you evidence from Scripture, "Great in the Kingdom of Heaven, and least in the Kingdom of Heaven" it is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, where only believers live there.
barb quote Scripture:
"Who has ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:40-43." you and Samuel are not hearing. You want to remain under the Sabbath law, you are not the first.
---Luke on 3/11/16


Jerry I've read it, and I've heard and embraced it as I have stated it.

"This is a gross misreading of the scripture."
You are welcome to your view, and I will not insult your view in that way.
---joseph on 3/10/16


Jerry6593, I agree with you. "And the Son of Man shall send forth His angels and they shall gather Out Of His Kingdom all things which offend and those who practice lawlessness. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

All sin and corruption is destroyed and the only people left in His Kingdom are the Righteous, the Holy and Lawful. "Then shall the Righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:40-43.
---barb on 3/10/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Stocks


joseph: "Jerry no believer teaches disobedience as concerning the law."

Really? How many times have you read on CN that obeying the Sabbath Commandment is not necessary, or that "we are not under the law"?

"However some do teach obedience to the law, while not obeying it themselves. These are the ones who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

This is a gross misreading of the scripture. Read it again.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

---jerry6593 on 3/10/16


"Luke: You still don't get it. The heavenly beings are talking about two classes of people on earth: Those who keep and teach the Ten Commandments (whom they call greatest), and those who disobey the Ten Commandments and teach disobedience (whom they call least)." Jerry no believer teaches disobedience as concerning the law. However some do teach obedience to the law, while not obeying it themselves. These are the ones who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
---joseph on 3/9/16


Luke: You still don't get it. The heavenly beings are talking about two classes of people on earth: Those who keep and teach the Ten Commandments (whom they call greatest), and those who disobey the Ten Commandments and teach disobedience (whom they call least).



---jerry6593 on 3/9/16


Over and over all the Apostles including Paul were always referring to the Bible the Old Testament. They taught from it and it was the authority they all based their writings on.

Romans 10:4-6 is misused. The law points to Jesus. It is it's goal or end. The law is about Jesus telling us who he is.

Many forget that Paul exalted the law.

Romans 3:20 ... for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
See also Romans 13.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/8/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Diabetes


Jerry, He is speaking to the apostles, but He is speaking about the Kingdom of Heaven. One person least in the Kingdom, the other great in the Kingdom of heaven. It is an example only to believers. For no unbeliever will be in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Now read what He says about those who are not believers:
"For I say to you, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Matt. 5:20.
---Luke on 3/8/16


Luke: "Here Jesus is speaking to believers already because they are already in the kingdom of heaven."

Bunk!

Here's the entire text:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is obviously speaking to his disciples here on earth. People in heaven wouldn't "break one of these least commandments", for that would be sin!

---jerry6593 on 3/8/16


Nicole, you said:
"In fact the Bible isn't needed to be a Christian.

Only the Church. The Bible helps, but for 4 hundreds people converted to Christianity through the Church infused by the GRACE of GOD."


The Bible is the Word of God. You say it is not needed and that the church is needed. First, the church are individuals who are born of God. You say church because you mean your denominational Church not Baptist, or Pentecostals, but yours, the Catholic church.
If there is a born again Christian in your church and he preaches the gospel to someone, that someone can be saved. Only if he is been call by God. Since we are save by the grace of God through faith.
---Luke on 3/7/16


Bill, just to clear something you said: "Also, Jesus says if someone breaks the law, the person will be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven,"

"Least in the kingdom of Heaven" Here Jesus is speaking to believers already because they are already in the kingdom of heaven. This was not for unbelievers. They are far away from heaven.
---Luke on 3/6/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Depression


Nicole: "In fact the Bible isn't needed to be a Christian. Only the Church."

Sad.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



---jerry6593 on 3/6/16


Some Christians actually believe that Paul's words trump Christ's (as if they were in conflict), but they do not, nor is there a conflict. The confusion arises due to the misunderstanding of a few key words, such as:

end - in the Greek, this is a goal, destination or purpose - not an elimination.

fulfill - to satisfy a debt or a prophecy (Christ did both) - not to destroy.

law - can mean anything from the writings of Moses to the sacrificial system to the Ten Commandments - depending on context. (Which one is written on the heart in the New Covenant?)





---jerry6593 on 3/6/16


Jesus came to fulfill the law, and Paul says Christ is the fulfillment of the law. So, Jesus and Paul agree (c: Also, Jesus says if someone breaks the law, the person will be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven, but if we are becoming like Jesus and loving the way God wants while obeying how our Father rules us in His peace, this is not breaking the law, but fulfilling its real purpose and rightful meaning.

By the way, James says we need works, but he does not say works of the law. In chapter two of James, he gives examples of personally loving a needy person, putting God first, and helping God's servants > works of personal loving.
---Bill on 3/5/16


Thank you Scott.

I have noted several times that many on this website have tried to cancel Jesus' Commands with Paul's letters. Esp. The letter to the Romans.

People forget is was an actual written letter to a group of people living in Roman.

The Bible only holds a few letters written by St. Paul to persons, or communities.

Paul's letters are not needed to be a Christians.

In fact the Bible isn't needed to be a Christian.

Only the Church. The Bible helps, but for 4 hundreds people converted to Christianity through the Church infused by the GRACE of GOD
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/4/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Bible Study


Scott, I see no contradiction between Paul, Jesus or anyone else. I read the passages you put down and they do not show any contradiction at all. Can you explain where you get those thoughts? We don't seem to see what you see.
---Luke on 3/5/16


I find no contradiction in Matthew 5:17-19 and Romans 10:4-6.

In Matthew 5:17-19 Christ is speaking of fulfilling the law as the Son of Man, in our place.

In Romans 10:4-6 Paul is speaking of us not relying on our own fulfilment of the law in order to obtain eternal salvation but relying on the faith of Christ. Paul is speaking of us resting and relying on the finish work of Christ for our salvation rather than trusting in our own works (in other words: not our fulfilment of the law).
---trey on 3/4/16


As Josef has stated, one area of "disagreement" is over the Law.

Many use the book of James as additional ammunition against Paul. However, we must remember James was the leader of the messianic Jews in Jerusalem and his book was written with this audience in mind. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and his books have this audience. Or a simpler way to view it is Legalism vs Grace, James vs Paul.

I choose to see Jesus as the starting point and like a stone dropping in a pond, waves ripple out from Him. The closer the ripples, the more connected to Judaism is it. The more distance away from Jesus, the less we see of Judaism and the Law.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/4/16


It centers on right division 2 Tim 2:15.
Jesus' earthly sojourn was primarily to the nation of Israel under Law.
Paul preached "Christ crucified to the boC comprised of Jew and Gentile the "new creature"
---michael_e on 3/4/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Bible Verses


Cont'ed, Jesus did not come to destroy the law, He came to fulfill it. He through His atoning sacrifice and ascension, completed the task initiated through the law, and the prophets. Thus the intent of both was fulfilled when He was raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father. However the law is still in full effect for the unbeliever, and they will be judge by their works, according to the law. He goes on to say whoever breaks the law, while teaching others to keep it, will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But, whoever keeps the law while teaching them, will be called great. No one will stand in that line:o)
---Josef on 3/3/16


Paul and Jesus teaching is the same.

Jesus kept the law (which we couldn't) as described in Matt 5:19,20.

Jesus also offered the gospel of the Kingdom as an alternative to righteousness by works.
Paul likewise preached the same gospel.

Jesus commandment: Believe on Jesus, John 3:16.
Paul preached the same: Romans 10:9.
---Haz27 on 3/4/16


It is really quite simple. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that 'believes',(relies on, adheres to and trust in His finished work). Willingly, and with complete confidence, professes Him as Lord. The righteousness which is of the law, is dependent upon man keeping the law, and living by it in his own strength, which has shown itself to be impossible. Therefore the law serves as mans tutor, to bring him to Christ. Remember, unless your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, who thought themselves righteous through their attempts to keep the law, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.
---Josef on 3/3/16


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.