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Our Free Will

I believe that God gave everyone free will. I believe that God can influence a person, as can the devil, but the person makes up his/her own mind.

Please Discuss.

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A few verses

Romans 3:25 Whom, God hath set forth to be a propitiation though Faith in, his blood to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are Past thought the forbearance of God

{ Could this be retroactive with people from, OT ? }

Follow up

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom, God Impute righteousness with out works

{ David not being saved by his own righteousness At what point does David get saved ? }
---RichardC on 3/21/16


Amen Kathr.

Yes GOD knows who will be saved.

Your points are half true. What you leave out is the teaching that those who are lost GOD chooses to not saved. In other words they are lost because GOD hates them and want to torture them in hell for all eternity. That he didn't die for them. They have no hope of salvation because GOD chooses to not save them.

Why don't you explain why you believe in the limited atonement? Where do you find it in the Bible?

As for GOD hates people that is from a number of Preachers who use the words of GOD hated Esau to show that GOD only loves some. Since you follow Calvin why don't you know what Calvinist have taught for centuries.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/21/16


To recap:

1. The authors of Scriptures from Genesis to Revelations as we have seen when examined and understood in there Proper Context do not teach, "Libertarian Freewill."

2. Those on this posting have failed biblically to make the distinction between God's General Call to man to repent and God's Effectual Calling to the "Elect."

3. Those on this posting have failed biblically To make the distinctions between freewill and "Libertarian Freewill."

4. The Doctrine of Libertarian Freewill was condemned by church councils as a heresy and is a young teaching.
---john9346 on 3/21/16


Luke:

You wrote: Strongaxe, your confused.

How so? Please explain to me how you interpret Matthew 25:34-39. Who is speaking in verses 38-39? These are righteous people who are granted an eternal reward - yet they ask why. How could any Christians ask this question, since they should already know the answer? These must therefore be people who AREN'T necessarily Christians, yet have unknowingly obeyed "love your neighbor as yourself" anyway.
---StrongAxe on 3/21/16


Kath, you now say:
Again Luke, You say, that everyone the Holy Spirit comes to will be saved. Not so. And we see here the Holy Spirit DOES come to those with an uncircumcised heart. So are you accusing GOD of duplicity?

Kath, who do you think the lost are? They are the one's with an un circumcise heart. I said when the Holy Spirit comes to a person who is lost, He opens the persons eyes, ears, and changes his heart so that he is able to perceive.
Another thing, I don't know what you are talking about.
Don't you understand that the Holy Spirit is now everywhere? He is not hiding some place and suddenly someone lets Him out. The Holy Spirit is God. He is Omnipresence. You need to learn who God is first.
---Luke on 3/22/16




Luke, you say ALL salvation experiences are like Paul's? And THAT is how one becomes THE ELECT? Well firstly, all the Apostles Were in fact God's very own from ELECT ISRAEL, His servants and His people, including Paul. But to say JESUS shows up Himself and His very presence blinds eyes, knocking us to the ground rebuking us for this or that forcing salvation upon us......Hummm. I know the charismatics use Paul's experience and call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit too, yet they don't believe in Calvinism.

Yet isn't it interesting that scripture doesn't replay Paul's experience over and over as the absolute norm for SALVATION. Paul was called TO BE AN APOSTLE, of which he says he is the least, because he murdered Christians.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/16


How exactly does the Gospel come in the power of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4 list these Gifts of ministry. So when a GIFTED preacher or evangelist preaches in the Power of the Holy Spirit, that means THE TRUTH, not some bogus gospel, to a group of 100 say, do all 100 become saved? Or those who do not RESIST? Peter certainly did preach at Pentecost in the power of the Holy Spirit, .......many were saved, and many resisted. But I see no documentation of that day being like Paul's experience. No blinding light burning eyes, or Jesus voice recorded.
How sad for those who question their salvation, because they can't remember being knocked to the ground. And Luke MarkV, you never had that experience either.
---kathr453 on 3/22/16


2 Corinthians 4:4

4 In whom the god of this world (SATAN) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them..

Here Luke, this says it all. All men are blinded by Satan, not sin, UNLESS and until the POWER of the Glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine UNTO THEM. "Unto" is not the New Birth either as in being IN THEM. Light is stronger than darkness. And the LIGHT of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL, is STRONGER than darkness, stronger than Satan. It doesn't say SIN has permanently blinded them.
---kathr453 on 3/22/16


Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Again Luke, You say, that everyone the Holy Spirit comes to will be saved. Not so. And we see here the Holy Spirit DOES come to those with an uncircumcised heart. So are you accusing GOD of duplicity? And what about Hebrews 6? Also when Jesus was on earth He was anointed by the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING that came out of Jesus mouth ...are you saying did not have GOD and the Holy Spirit involved? Remember Luke, the Holy Spirit doesn't save anyone. Jesus saves. You continually put ALL THE EMPHASIS OF SALVATION on the Holy Spirit alone. Didn't you know the Holy Spirit points to Jesus, not Himself?
---kathr4453 on 3/21/16


Strongaxe, your confused. Look, all human beings are born lost. The elect included. All are sinning because they are slaves of sin. They enjoy what they do, some more then others. They have not excuse. Those chosen before the foundation of the world will eventually one day come to Christ. Some at a young age others when they are older. They do not know who they are just like Paul did not know He was going to be chosen by God. If the gospel comes to a sinner in power and in the Holy Spirit, he will be saved. But that is left up to God. All we are call to do is to spread the gospel. We as believers do not know who is coming to Christ. Only God knows. The righteous go to heaven, and the others go to hell for doing what they did in their lives.
---Luke on 3/21/16




Some good points. Thanks
---Samuelbb7 on 3/21/16


Darline, what you wrote is beautiful, and correct. Paul was talking about two parties, the Jews who got the Law, they were going to be judge by the law they received. The other party are all none jews, who never heard about the law, for the law did not come to them. They were still guilty for sinning even without the law because:
"What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and Godhead so they are without excuse," Rom. 1:19-20.
---Luke on 3/21/16


Darlene_1:

Then of the final judgment in Matthew 25? Jesus rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. Both ask why, which means they don't know. Surely, if the righteous were all believing Christians, they would not need to ask, since they would already know - which means that includes people who aren't, but are still saved anyway.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

These appear to be people who "love their neighbor as themselves" - they ARE doing the will of the father, even if they don't know it. They are the ones in the parable of the wedding feast who are last, but are made first.
---StrongAxe on 3/20/16


Luke Darlene1 is correct. all down through history, beginning with Adam and Eve, then Abel then Seth, Noah, and sons, there has ALWAYS BEEN THOSE who have heard and believed in God. even Job. Now the friends of Job believed in God too, but just misdirected him through his suffering. Nothing about the law here or them being under the Law either. and nothing about them being depraved either. FAITH has been in the world since the fall. It was available to sinners then and now. And no one was Born Again until Jesus rose from the dead. They had to wait for us....Hebrews 11. They couldn't even enter heaven until Jesus rose from the dead, being kept at that time in Abraham's bosom. Today when we die we go STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN TO BE WITH THE LORD.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/16


Luke#2

Now think....why couldn't OT saints immediately be with the Lord, and IN CHRIST before Jesus died and rose again? Ans....because COVERED SIN, is not the same as sin WASHED AWAY. Bulls and goats, as did Abel offer, did not make anyone PERFECT. Yet YOU claim they were perfect IN CHRIST, which by the way is the NEW BIRTH, you claim was given before the cross? So the cross IS FOOLISHNESS TO YOU, Luke, because you don't understand it at all. You don't understand the New Birth that came with the NEW COVENANT. You claim the New and OLD were active at the exact same time? Your doctrine is so distorted it's not even funny. It's sad.
---kathr453 on 3/20/16


Luke I didn't just conclude without some indication from the Bible that they who die without Law won't be judged by it. I got that from reading the Bible. Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law,and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law,--. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God therefore if they haven't heard the Word,they have no faith and the Word says without faith it's impossible to please God. Those who never heard are not equipped to follow or obey God or please Him.
---Darlene_1 on 3/20/16


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Kath, you said:
". There is nothing mentioned about Abraham having a circumcised heart BEFORE he believed, or being born again first SO THAT, he could believe. He was IMPUTED righteousness AFTER he believed." This proves Calvinism is false.

You are completely wrong, Didn't God choose Abraham? Of course He did. He called Him which means He was born of God. Otherwise how could he believe? Faith comes from God. And it comes when we are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast. And what happen before God saved him by grace? He made him alive when he was dead in trespasses and sins. The Holy Spirit was in the Old Testament. For the Holy Spirit is God. Don't forget that.
---Luke on 3/20/16


RichardC, Ezekiel 36 is not to the CHURCH, or Body of Christ in the NT. If you read very carefully, from the beginning of the promises in Ezekiel 36, again promised several times through out these promises is LAND. Again, you have cherry picked AROUND the WHOLE PROMISE, and extracted only the part you want, and throwing the remainder of the promise away? Either the promise is THE WHOLE, or not at all. And no where is "circumcision of the heart , in the spirit" even stated.

This promise is to the NATION ISRAEL, when Isaiah 14 comes to pass.

Study to show yourselves approved unto God RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/16


Darline, said:
"It is my understanding that those who die without the Law are not judged by the Law. Then there are those who are a Law unto themselves and do the works of the Law but do not have the Law. Further how can someone be judged by a Law they never heard of or had a chance to accept"

Those who live without the law are also guilty. They all sin against God.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them." Rom. 1:18,19.
They are guilty without the law. In their hearts they know what is right and what is wrong.
---Luke on 3/19/16


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.

RichardC...PRAISE YES, but nowhere does to say salvation. This was OT, and Deut states God telling THEM to circumcise their own hearts. This was not the New Birth we know in the NT.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/16


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TODAY, this is what circumcision is. This is not the same as what was said in Romans 2. This is how the New Birth comes. There is nothing in Romans 2 about the New Birth. THAT is why one must read Romans 2-8 following Romans 2 to get the WHOLE TRUTH, and not just cherry pick verses to prove something that was never said.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
This too is explained in Romans 6.
---kathr453 on 3/19/16


deuteronomy,10:16

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Compared to Colossians 2, or those who obeyed this...(Romans 2 ) are two entirely different issues. No one in the OT could possibly be crucified with Christ re Colossians 2, with THAT CIRCUMCISION. And we see in Romans 4 Abraham was justified BY FAITH, before any mention of any circumcision, proving FAITH COMES FIRST. There is nothing mentioned about Abraham having a circumcised heart BEFORE he believed, or being born again first SO THAT, he could believe. He was IMPUTED righteousness AFTER he believed.
This proves Calvinism is false.
---kathr4454 on 3/19/16


I said it's controversial.

To me the grace of God can save an ignorant person.

Idon't have all the answers.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


Samuel : Can still be save Romans 2 But Go down to Romans 2:28 and 29
The Circumcision of the heart Man's not doing this Find this again Ezekiel 36: 24 -------|> A Hypothetical People in some land never heard the gospel how Do they getting saved Good works ? That doesn't work Galatians 2:16 They don't have sin ? Blood line of Adam Laws Righten in there hearts How do they become a new creature in Christ unless God does the work The circumcision of the Heart Born again Baptism, of the spirit The Am Not a calvinist.
---RichardC on 3/18/16


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Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Heb 11:6
---micha9344 on 3/18/16


I challenge those here who continue to state, "Calvinists teach God hates people."

To please find that teaching in the following confessions and post it so all can see and know the truth:

Also remember what Brendan said, "If one thing that you have said is wrong, then how can I trust the others?"


The Augsburg Confession of Faith,

The Belgic Confession of Faith,

The London Baptist Confession of faith of 1689,

The Westminster Confession of Faith,
---john9346 on 3/18/16


Kathr,

Cluny,

Tell us, what points are you trying to make by citing the Westboro Baptist Church?

Before you respond, keep in mind, Jim Jones was Pentecostal, David Koresh was Seventhday Adventists, and many catholic priests have raped little boys.

Pat Robertson said the Haiti Earthquake of 2010 was God cursed on the people.

Jerry Falwell said 911 was God's Judgment on America.
---john on 3/18/16


Darlene_1:

Exactly right. Matthew 25 describes the final judgment, where Jesus separates the righteous from the wicked, like sheep from goats. He rewards the righteous - and these don't understand why they are being rewarded. This means they include those who aren't Christians (or at least educated ones), because they aren't aware of this. So these are judged by their compassion, not their faith.

He also condemns the wicked - people who don't understand why they are being judged. This presumably also includes those who call themselves Christians but really aren't. (Elsewhere, he says some will say "Lord, lord! Didn't we do great works in your name?" and he will say "Get away - I never knew you!").
---StrongAxe on 3/18/16


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It is my understanding that those who die without the Law are not judged by the Law. Then there are those who are a Law unto themselves and do the works of the Law but do not have the Law. Further how can someone be judged by a Law they never heard of or had a chance to accept,just as they cannot accept our God they have never heard about. If people are not judged by God's Law then evidently they have no reward nor do they receive God's punishment,sounds like they just cease to be anywhere at all.
---Darlene_1 on 3/18/16


Strongaxe, you say,
"It undercuts one of the weaknesses of Calvinistic predestination/OSAS theology - the idea that the saved essentially have a "license to sin". Paul himself addressed this issue specifically. "Does this mean I can continue in sin? Of course not!"

We are never told a person saved has a license to sin. Those who are saved are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is not moving us to sin. The Spirit helps us to be more Christ like, by the will of God, though in this life we are never going to stop from sinning in these flesh. When we sin we have an Advocate with the Father.
And the person saved is sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. That is why Once saved, always saved.
---Luke on 3/18/16


The problem is that you are ignoring Romans 2. One of the big arguments in Christianity is what about those who have not heard of Jesus.

There are two main views. One they are lost. The other uses Romans two to say a person who has not heard can still be saved.

I fall in the second group. Which answers your point.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/16


Strongaxe states,"
If God created some people, arranging in advance, from the beginning of time, that they would live their lives, and then spend eternity in hell, without them having any chance of redemption, I wouldn't exactly call that "love"."

Sir, now you are raising the question of the nature of God.

Can't God be 100% just, loving, merciful and a judge??

Have you not read 1 Jn 4:7-8

You continue to fail to note that the reprobate/sinner doesn't want a chance they are happy in their sins Rom 3:10-18, Rom 8:7-8, and Matt 10:24-25.
---john9346 on 3/18/16


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The Question is why save any for all have sin ! Even if a person is saved Christ has wash there sins But still in the flesh sin can still happen , Just a thought can be a sin !

Samuel Draw all men : In The pass as well as today Not all have heard of the Bible or Jesus To me that does not work unless { ALL } it is a selective group
---RichardC on 3/17/16


john9346:

You wrote: I asked you to cite sources on prior posting that God hates people in Calvinism and you could never provide them.

If God created some people, arranging in advance, from the beginning of time, that they would live their lives, and then spend eternity in hell, without them having any chance of redemption, I wouldn't exactly call that "love". Yet this is a direct consequence of Calvinistic predestination.
---StrongAxe on 3/18/16


Westboro is a 6 point Hyper-Calvinist church. Phelps is said to have been a 5 point.

Years ago in the 80's I went to a Calvinist church. That too was the time when many were dying in Africa due to drought. And from our pulpit it was said "they deserved to die because thousands of years ago THEY REJECTED GOD," as he read from Romans 1 and 2 and that God had given them up.

I did confront the pastor, and said, we were all ancestors of those in Romans 1-2, regardless of where we ended up living now. He thought for a minute, gave me a dirty look, and that was that. The church now has a 20 foot brick wall built around the church. Strange stories come from many who have left.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/16


I meant to say we are all descendants of those from Romans 1-2. Calvinists will use any scripture they can find to use the THEY and WE mentality. YET Paul clearly says WE WERE ALL disobedient. Both Jew and Gentile, but further states that Gentiles were WITHOUT GOD. Paul never teaches that only SOME were and the rest were the elect. No Gentile has ever been said to be the elect. In the NT, only Jesus Christ is the ELECT, and those who come to Him, both Jew and Gentile, BECOME the elect THROUGH HIM, not through their own merit. The CHURCH IS THE ELECT. The BODY of Christ is the ELECT. Whosoever will BECOMES THE ELECT, when they choose to be crucified with Christ and raised a New Creature. The NEW creature is The elect CHURCH.
---kathr453 on 3/18/16


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\\Sir, tell me why do you continue to be dishonest when you have been corrected several times that Calvinists do not teach God hates people?\\

The followers of the late Fred Phelps of the infamous Westboro Baptist Church consider themselves Calvinistic Baptists, and claim that God hates certain people.

How truly Calvinistic they are, I would not know.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/16


Samuel said, "I love those verses. But I don't read force and hatred in these words."

Sir, tell me why do you continue to be dishonest when you have been corrected several times that Calvinists do not teach God hates people?

I asked you to cite sources on prior posting that God hates people in Calvinism and you could never provide them.
---john9346 on 3/17/16


Samuel states, "Jesus said when he is lifted up he will draw all men to him." "But not all will come."

And did you continue reading on after Jn 12:32note following:

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Jn 12:39-40

Also Samuel remember, Ellen G. White your founder believed and taught predestination.
---john on 3/17/16


I recognize that people teach that doctrine. I understand you teach it. I don't read where the Bible teaches TULIP.

I agree with the Bible verses you quote. In fact Romans 3 goes further. But that doesn't prove predestination.

We are all sinners only God saves. You have yet to show limited atonement.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/17/16


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Luke:

You wrote: you choosing to murder someone has already be taken into account that you would. So your name would not have been in the book of life.

This is an excellent point. It undercuts one of the weaknesses of Calvinistic predestination/OSAS theology - the idea that the saved essentially have a "license to sin". Paul himself addressed this issue specifically. "Does this mean I can continue in sin? Of course not!"

What it means is that there are those who THINK they are saved, but aren't really - and their sinning won't blot their names out of the Book of Life, because they were never there in the first place. We still choose, but God knew what we would choose long before we did.
---StrongAxe on 3/17/16


Samuel, sorry to tell you this but the will of men is in bondage to sin. God does save who He wills to save. You just don't like that of course. You rather men choose what he wants. Don't you also realize that man is at enmity against God? Don't you know that you walked according to the prince and power of the air? And the only way you can escape from the enemy is if God pulls you out of his grasp.
"for when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness, What fruit did you have then in the things which you are not ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life."
---Luke on 3/17/16


I love those verses. But I don't read force and hatred in these words. I see love and caring for those who have come to Jesus Christ.

Jesus said when he is lifted up he will draw all men to him. But not all will come.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/17/16


Strongaxe, you said"
"Suppose my name is written in the Book of Life. Then, I go out and take a gun and kill someone. Is my name still written in the Book? If it isn't, predestination is false (because I can change my fate)."

you choosing to murder someone has already be taken into account that you would. So your name would not have been in the book of life. God knows who they are who will come to Christ because He chose them. Is it hard to understand? And why is that so bad? And why doesn't the Creator have the power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? But who are you to reply against God? The correct amount are in the book, God makes no mistakes.
---Luke on 3/17/16


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Samuelbb7 states, "GOD does not choose only a few to save and forces them to be saved..."

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
---john9346 on 3/16/16


"...your argument fail to take in to acount that the issue is the 2 Natures (the predestine and the reprobate.)

"Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself ...."

Rom 8:7-8
---john9346 on 3/16/16


Scripture never speaks of any supposed "2 natures" as though there might be an angel and a demon living in us.

Paul said THE MIND is set on either the sinful body or the righteous spirit.
---James_L on 3/16/16


john9346:

You wrote: Sir, your argument fail to take in to acount that the issue is the 2 Natures (the predestine and the reprobate.)

How does that have anything to do with the question? Suppose my name is written in the Book of Life. Then, I go out and take a gun and kill someone. Is my name still written in the Book? If it isn't, predestination is false (because I can change my fate). If it is, sin has no consequences, and I am literally getting away with murder because of predestination. Which of these two outcomes do you believe is true?
---StrongAxe on 3/17/16


God does not FORCE anyone to be crucified with Christ. And God CANNOT, come and live in a sinner before that sinner is Justified by FAITH. The Holy Spirit today is in the world testifying of Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection. Now some say an evil heart cannot believe. YET we see the man who was crucified next to Christ was a SINNER, just like the other one, who HEARD first and believed, confessing himself a sinner who deserved to die. He also acknowledged who Jesus was, calling Him LORD.

Faith comes by HEARING. Romans 10:9-10 is what you have heard, and what all the Apostles testified to. They testified this TO DEPREVED SINNERS, with results at Pentecost resulting in salvation of thousands.
---kathr4453 on 3/17/16


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Now let's review Romans 12:1-2 . YOU SAY, a sinner can present themselves to God HOLY AND ACCEPTABLE, in order to know His will? Impossible. Who is Paul speaking to here? THE SECRET CHOSEN...who CLAIM they are already HOLY AND ACCEPTABLE before KNOWING God's will? Yet these verses are talking about SERVICE, not salvation, or a means TO salvation which would put this in the WORKS CATEGORY, if it meant initial salvation. Romans 6 also clarify this comes AFTER salvation, not before. Yes our WILL even as a new creature must be totally surrendered to God IN CHRIST.
---kathr453 on 3/17/16


Romans 12 :I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Read this carefully, concerning KNOWING GOD's WILL. Calvinists believe only THEY know God's will. But LOOK what one first needs to do before one can KNOW God's will. Service is our works AFTER we are saved, not before. But Calvinists believe they must WORK for their salvation according to these verses.
---kathr4454 on 3/17/16


So the argument here is.....the flesh cannot please God, so one must be in the spirit FIRST, and have the flesh crucified FIRST, before one can have FAITH? Sorry, but those verses are talking about the "sanctification" process, not the JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER. Two different matters. And scripture states It is God who justifies the UNGODLY. Someone who's flesh is crucified with Christ, and walking in the Spirit, where Christ is living IN that person doesn't need salvation, because that is the RESULT of salvation, not the means FOR salvation.

The WHOSOEVER will, and THE WHOLE WORLD simply mean, both Jew and Gentile. That through Jesus death and resurrection salvation and the Gospel has been offered to ALL.
---kathr4454 on 3/16/16


strongaxe states, "if Calvinistic predestination is, in fact, true, then this is the inevitable conclusion."

Sir, your argument fail to take in to acount that the issue is the 2 Natures (the predestine and the reprobate.)

"Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Rom 8:7-8
---john9346 on 3/16/16


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Adam and Eve had free will, but what happened to their freedom when they fell?

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

People who are "slaves of sin" (Romans 6:17) are desperate for pleasure, to try to make them feel something nicer than Satan's spirit messing them with unforgiveness, boredom and loneliness, and dictatorial drives for pleasure.

So, apart from Jesus, how free is a person? (John 8:36)
---Bill on 3/16/16


Samuel BB said, "But not all choose to be saved. GOD does not choose only a few to save and forces them to be saved. Nor does He chose to not save the majority of people because He hates them."

I couldn't have said it better! Amen and Amen

Monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/16/16


GOD does not choose only a few to save and forces them to be saved...
---Samuelbb7 on 3/16/16

I choose to see it this way.

God has made a way of salvation thru Jesus. The way is available to everyone or whosoever will. Everyone is initially called unto this salvation and everyone is initially predestined for this salvation.

However, there is a stipulation to taking this way of salvation, and the stipulation is you must surrender your will to and declare that Jesus is Lord over all, especially you, to the glory of God the Father.

Everyone who willingly accepts this stipulation and makes the action accordingly, will be saved if they choose to continue in faith and overcome.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/16/16


Scott in Matt 18:14 the passage is speaking of sheep. Not willing that one of His sheep perish.
In 2 Peter 3:9, if you read the context, ...
---Luke on 3/15/16

If his context subject is "Sheep" why don't you exhaust the subject.
Christ states plainly who the
"Sheep" are, as do the prophets and GOD.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mic_2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel, I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah,...
etc, etc, etc....
"Us", = "Sheep" of Israel.
---Trav on 3/16/16


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Okay it seems I have not made myself clear.

Only those who believe are saved. No argument there.

My. Point is that all humans are called and convicted.

But not all choose to be saved. GOD does not choose only a few to save and forces them to be saved. Nor does He chose to not save the majority of people because He hates them.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/16/16


john9346:

You wrote: Your argument is based on a false premise.

Please explain, exactly which premise I made that was false, and why it is false.

(Note here that I am not advocating for this position itself - merely stating that, if Calvinistic predestination is, in fact, true, then this is the inevitable conclusion. So, if you are saying that Calvinistic predestination is false, I can agree.)
---StrongAxe on 3/16/16


Samuel, you say:
I see how you can make that argument on Matthew and Peter. But it can easily be argued that's it referring to all humans. But John 3 has to mean all humans. Also Romans 3 points to all humans."

Samuel, there is no argument there. Even John 3:16 is saying only those who believe are saved. Only those. And sure God loves the world, He made it. This is His plan. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He knows the outcome of His plan, after all He made it. We are just going through the motion. He doesn't go through time waiting to see if you will love Him or not. He knows all things. He is outside of time. If you knew God you would know that.
---Luke on 3/16/16


Strongaxe states, "If God has already made up his mind whether or not whether we're saved or not, and nothing we can do will change that, we might as well all just do as we please."

Things to note:

1. Your argument is based on a false premise.

2. The reprobate does not seek, love, or desire God.

3. The reprobate hates God and wants nothing to do with him.


"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom 3:10-12
---john9346 on 3/15/16


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rob said, "John 9346, Strongaxe is totaly correct in his statement. Many years ago, I was engaged to someone who follows the Calvinist doctrines and teaching. Calvinist do believe a person has no say in whether or not they are, or not saved."

Sir, things to note:

1. Most people who claim this title do not understand the doctrines.

2. There are 2 types of Calvinists (Hyper and Non-hyper), the Non-hyper is unbiblical.

Tell me, which one was your girlfriend?
---john9346 on 3/15/16


Rob said, "Also, her pastor was against our getting married because we were of different ethnicity."

Calvinists are not racists I am a Black Man and actually there are many Black Calvinist Pastors as well as many Black Americans who are coming to these, "Cherish Truths." of the gospel.

A lot of Black Baptists in history were Calvinistic.

A good book is the Glory Road how ten Black Americans found Calvinism

All Praise be Yahweh for his election ...
---john on 3/15/16


I see how you can make that argument on Matthew and Peter. But it can easily be argued that's it referring to all humans. But John 3 has to mean all humans. Also Romans 3 points to all humans.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/15/16


Scott, you say:
"However, Look at Matt 18:14, John 3:16 "the world", 2 Peter 3:9. God's will is that none should perish, (even though he knows some will). Thus another element is required for belief in Jesus and that is our will to surrender to the gospel."

Scott in Matt 18:14 the passage is speaking of sheep. Not willing that one of His sheep perish. In 2 Peter 3:9, if you read the context, it is also talking about God being longsuffering toward "Us" us is the people of God. He waits for them to be saved. God has an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth His judgment (v.15). (Joel 2:13, Luke 15:20, Romans 9:22).
---Luke on 3/15/16


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strongaxe ask, "If we have no choice, why would Joshua say this?"

Sir, did you read the preceeding verses and the verses after 15?

Tell me, does the chapter teach Libertarian Freewill?

2 Peter 3:9 in context is written all ready to believers and John 3:16 is not refering to everybody of the Human Race remember there is a requirement in Jn 3:16.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

1 Pet 1:2
---john9346 on 3/14/16


God have 2 "Wills." "An Eternal Decree." and a "Perscriptive Will."


The death of Jesus is God's Eternal Decree/will.

1 Kings 18 is God's Perscriptive Will.

Deut 30:19-20 is God's Perscriptive Will.

Josh 24:15 is God's Perscriptive Will.

Joseph being sold in to slavery is God's Eternal Decree.

Esau giving up his Birth Right is God's Eternal Decree.

Adam eating the apple is an example of God's Perscriptive Will,however, Gen 2 is God's Eternal Decree/will.

Jonah is an example of God's Eternal Decree/will.

The Rich Young Ruler is God's Perscriptive Will.
---john on 3/14/16


Interesting how II PETER 3:9 is worded that GOD is not "willing" that anyone perish, but, rather, that all should come to repentance.

This word "willing" means "desiring".

GOD desires that all repent and avoid perishing.

This leaves it up to the individual human being to make a choice.

Making a choice always involves free-will.
---Gordon on 3/14/16


Luke, StrongAxe mentioned one place the OT supports free will. (Of course, how many times must the Bible say something for it to be true?)

Elijah told the Israelites on Mt. Carmen, "If YHVH be God, follow Him, but if Baal be God, then follow him." In other words, the prophet was offering people a free will choice.

Jesus gave the Rich Young Ruler a chance to exercise his free will by extending the invitation, "If you would be perfect, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come follow Me."

In Revelation are the word, "Whosoever will, let him come." Sounds like free-will to me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/14/16


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Amen Strong ax.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/14/16


Luke:

You wrote: There is no such thing as free will in Scripture.

Then we are all just puppets on strings, and our choices are not our own - which means nothing we do is our own fault, since God is doing it, and not we ourselves. Since God makes us do things, the consequences must then all be his fault, and if that is the case, punishing us eternally for evil things we don't even choose to do seems cruel and sadistic.

How do you explain Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve, ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

If we have no choice, why would Joshua say this?
---StrongAxe on 3/14/16


//It just means that he did right things.//Luke

This describes a saved person also. There is no difference between a lost and a saved person except Jesus, which you have correctly stated. However, Look at Matt 18:14, John 3:16 "the world", 2 Peter 3:9. God's will is that none should perish, (even though he knows some will). Thus another element is required for belief in Jesus and that is our will to surrender to the gospel.
---Scott1 on 3/14/16


Brendan,

1. The Scriptures from Genesis to Revelations when examined and understood in there Proper Context do not teach, "Libertarian Freewill."

2. The Doctrine of Libertarian Freewill was condemned by Several Church Councils as a heresy and is a Young Teaching.
---john9346 on 3/14/16


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There is no such thing as free will in Scripture. A lost person has the choice to do right things or bad things. That does not mean that when he does right things he is saved. It just means that he did right things. And as we know no one can do all right things all the time. And we are told that if we break one law of God, we have broken them all. So those lost can never be save by their own will. They are slaves to sin.
Now God has free will. He can do whatever He wants. If He wants to save someone lost, He makes it possible for the lost person to see, hear, and perceive the word of God. He is given that Love of Christ, for Christ is love. But only God can make it possible for the lost person to be saved. Otherwise he remains lost.
---Luke on 3/14/16


Yeah we have free will, but in our free will God knows what we are going to do, because he is outside of time. However because he has truely unconditional love he can press into us his will into every action even though he knows we are going disobey. His purpose will still get accomplished in our free will because he knows what we are going to do.
---Scott1 on 3/13/16


Undeserving as humans are, God has given us many gifts. Besides Jesus Christ and life itself topping the list, I would include free will, which is so often used unwisely.
---Press_On on 3/12/16


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