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Agree With Sinful Leaders

The Bible warns not to agree with sinful leaders if we do we become partakers of their sins. We are to lead people to Christ not be condoning people who do wrong. Yet some who adhere to them attack Christians and blame them because they don't accept the person who does wrong and calls them liars.

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nobody can justly accuse me of being left wing--Monk_B

Then why did you argue in support the Marxist LGBT Safe Schools Coalition with it's plan to indoctrinate school children with LGBT lifestyles?

Communist Roz Ward even stated at a Marxist conference that the Safe Schools Coalition she developed was done so with the express intention of furthering Marxism in schools.

Monk_B, whilst you may sincerely believe you're not a Lefty, the brainwashing from the Leftist dominated news media, Hollywood, universities, etc has clearly worked on you, as Russian KGB Communist defector Yuri Bezmanov said was happening in the West.
---Haz27 on 4/6/16


Cluny. Your use of Isa 8:12 without any regard to context only discredits your argument.

It's context refers to those who trusted in man (similar to what you do by trusting in the Communist Left and their LGBT agenda).
Instead we see that we should trust in God (Isa 8:13).

Consider also God speaks of conspiracies (Jeremiah 11:9) and then there's those conspiracies to kill Paul (Acts 9:23, Acts 23:12). As these scriptures confirm, conspiracies can be true. Sadly, because you ignore truth, you've associated the word "conspiracy" with falsehood.

But we've all seen how you earnestly defend the LGBT lifestyle in spite of God calling such lifestyles an abomination (Lev 20:13).
Come out of your closet Cluny.
---Haz27 on 4/6/16


monk: I didn't accuse you of anything. If you'll check, my remarks about the boiling water were directed at StrongAxe - not you. I'm glad to hear that you also don't like our Traitor-in-Chief. Axey is a left-wing lib from Canada, so he defends the obamination.


---jerry6593 on 4/6/16


Like Russian KGB Communist defector Yuri Bezmanov said, the West is stuck with many "brainwashed useful idiots" for the Communist Left, and it's difficult to undo that brainwashing.

Some are barking Leftists (like Leon), and others deny they are whilst they parrot the same politically correct message and debate tactics as Leftist dominated news media, Hollywood, universities do.

But, throughout the West many more people have now recognized that it's the Communist/Left, and their Islamist allies, who are undermining the West, fracturing it through Islamofascism, and the bullying of society through political correctness, etc.

CLUNY, your still hiding in that closet. Time to come out about your LGBT preference.
---Haz27 on 4/5/16


Haz, you are greatly exercised about a conspiracy involving LGBT, Communists, and mahometans.

My Bible in Isaiah 8:12 says you're not supposed to call things conspiracies.

Or is that verse not in your Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/5/16




///...you grabbed onto Communism like a pit bull on a steak, diverting the whole discussion onto that one obsession for a long time. This runaway train has occupied over 20% of this blog's allotted space. Can we give it a rest already?
---StrongAxe on 4/4/16///

I started to say "good luck" with that 'Axe. But, I don't believe in luck (chance). I however do believe "by faith", prayer & fasting, the activities of certain bi-polar spirits can be suppressed. In the interim, don't feed the angry Aussie wolf (pit bull: canine). :)
---Leon on 4/5/16


Jerry said, "But when YOU pour it on others, they don't deserve it - such as when YOU and your leftist ilk put the current traitor-in-chief over us. The fool on the hill just apologized to ISIS for our political candidates making them mad at us. Good grief man, wake up! Right is right and Left is wrong."

Jerry, first of all, nobody can justly accuse me of being left wing or even mildly centrist. I think that a good man for President would be Herbert Hoover--if he were still alive. I didn't vote for Obama, so you can't blame his presidency on me.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/5/16


\\You should have taken the red pill Samuel.\\

You should adjust your tinfoil hat, Haz.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/5/16


But when YOU pour it on others, they don't deserve it--jerry

True.
The Communist Left dominate news media, Hollywood, universities, DEM's, etc, with the intent of manipulating, bullying and brainwashing enough of society so that it will pour boiling water (Communism) over their feet. And even Islamists are in on this undermining of society.

It was interesting to see that some here are willing to defend this evil, and without any evidenced based argument even.

Russian KGB Communist defector, Yuri Bezmanov, warned that the West was stuck with such "brainwashed useful idiots" and its near impossible to undo the Communist brainwashing they've received through news media, Hollywood, universities, etc.
---Haz27 on 4/5/16


Samuelbb7. As usual you fail to substantiate your claims. Until you actually offer evidence based debate then we can only conclude you're resorting to the Left's trademark tactic of ad hominem attacks.

Leftists are renowned for ad hominem attacks in place of substantiated debate. Society has long been bullied by their politically correct smear like "conspiracy theorist, racist, Islamophobe, bigot, misogynist, white privilege," etc.
But thanks for coming out Samuel and showing us you're a Leftist.

BTW, your ad hominem attack is directed at God also as He describes that towards the end tribulation will be the worst the world has ever seen (Matt 24:21-23).
You should have taken the red pill Samuel.


---Haz27 on 4/4/16




Haz27:

You are the one who is constantly tilting at the windmill of Communism. I don't offer any solutions to it, because I don't personally have any. Do you? I merely brought it up in passing as an example to illustrate American legal process - just as I mentioned sticking a fork in a toaser as an example of something foolish to do (and I have no particular interest in either forks or toasters).

Both were merely illustrative examples, yet you grabbed onto Communism like a pit bull on a steak, diverting the whole discussion onto that one obsession for a long time. This runaway train has occupied over 20% of this blog's allotted space. Can we give it a rest already?
---StrongAxe on 4/4/16


whining about them-StrongAxe.
Here you oppose criticism as whining.

But, we've discussed your bias often. Hardly need to again.

BTW, whilst God's warning about things getting far worse towards the end (Matt 24:21) cannot be undone, that does not mean we are to ignore all the signs and pretend (as Leftists here do) that the Left's deceitful anti-Christ agenda through it's dominance of media, Hollywood, universities, etc, is somehow a benign or good influence.

Regarding your allegation of muzzling you, if you recall the context was your claim that America deserves what it gets even though you oppose any criticism of the very factors sabotaging America so it gets the evil you allege it deserves.

---Haz27 on 4/5/16


Axe: "It's unpalatable, but true. ANYONE, anywhere, who willingly chooses to pour boiling water on his own feet, deserves to get burned."

But when YOU pour it on others, they don't deserve it - such as when YOU and your leftist ilk put the current traitor-in-chief over us. The fool on the hill just apologized to ISIS for our political candidates making them mad at us. Good grief man, wake up! Right is right and Left is wrong.



---jerry6593 on 4/5/16


josef on 3/20/16

Thanks for your many posts, enlightening and blessing

"One can accept the sinner without accepting or condoning their sin. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. The believe can, and should share Him and His teaching with all men. How can the sinner "call on Him in whom they have not believed?...." Rom 10:14,15"

This and more, I agree, for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,and He being our example and so much more, showed the greatest acceptance of all.
(all being everyone as well as Him being and manifesting the greatest love).
---chria9396 on 4/5/16


Cluny. In 1930's the West had it's Nazi apologists too, denying it's rising threat. You're just proof history repeats itself. No doubt you also ridicule what Jesus said In Matt 24:22 about conditions nearing the end.

But as I've provided all the supported facts and you have offered none, other than your trademark sarcastic banter (or is it delusions, it's hard to tell with you), then I'll just keep it your level of debate for your benefit.

So Cluny, back to our earlier debate when you argued in support of the LGBT lifestyle and indoctrinating school children with it.
Your support for this actually fits that allegation that you date men. So when are you going to come out of the closet Cluny? And are you only dating Orthodox men?
---Hza27 on 4/4/16


Those who believe in conspiracy theories have some how found a way to discover ultra secret plans.

Has nothing I can say will change your mind. All I ask is instead of putting your faith in your understanding look to Jesus. Does he preach love or hate?

Who will you follow?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/16


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Haz, is Australia also building concentration camps and stockpiling guillotines?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/16


StrongAxe. As you offer no alternative to your constant opposition to anyone opposing Leftist PC tyranny, I'll offer some.

Ben Shapiro wrote books like "Primetime Propaganda", and "Bullies. How the Left's culture of intimidation and fear silences America". He reveals damming admissions by Leftists in the media+Hollywood of their efforts to control thought. And he offers suggestions to oppose them.

Leftist LGBT activist Tammy Bruce wrote "The new Thought Police. Inside the Left's Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds". She also addresses the obvious media thought control by her Leftist mates (who attacked her for exposing this).

Cluny. Take the red pill and see the real world.
---Haz27 on 4/4/16


Haz27:

No, I don't, as I keep repeating, and I criticized them each time. I am an iconoclast. I typically welcome criticism of all kinds of anything and everything - as the Bible says, iron sharpens iron, and the best way to discover if certain ideas are reasonable or impractical or outright loony is to discuss them (critically, where people are open to discussion, rather than interested only in pushing an agenda, with an attitude of "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts.")

Please show ONE thing I have said here that actually OPPOSES criticism.

If I'm not allowed to say something won't work unless I have an alternative - you muzzle me, doing the same thing you accuse me of.
---StrongAxe on 4/4/16


StrongAxe. To explain further, you oppose criticism of deluded and dangerous Communist Left, claiming we need a different approach, but you offer no alternative. This does nothing, letting evil prevail.

Regarding China, their government rightly ignores the global warming scam as they want to bring their people out of poverty. China ignored Obama's global warming con and thus pumps more carbon.

As for the Communists success, you missed my point. I referred to the political correctness you claim you oppose. Communists have infiltrated media, universities (with their delusional safe spaces, jazz hands, micro-aggression, white privilege, racism, Islamophobia, etc), etc and use them to bully and manipulate society.
---Haz27 on 4/4/16


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Haz27:

I ask again, how is merely telling you something is legal is opposing your opposition to it? Many things in this world are distasteful, but legal - and whining about them won't solve them.

Evil prevails when good people do nothing.

You could stamp out communism in the U.S. by declaring it illegal - which would require repealing the first amendment. You're welcome to try, and good luck with that.

Please show me, exactly, where I have ever opposed criticism.

Again I ask are you still content to say America deserves what it gets

It's unpalatable, but true. ANYONE, anywhere, who willingly chooses to pour boiling water on his own feet, deserves to get burned.
---StrongAxe on 4/4/16


Monk_B. Perhaps this will open your eyes.
Cardinal Pell of RCC was Australian Archbishop. He's targeted by Communist/Left media for vilification for his handling of clergy pedophilia cases decades ago.

So why do Leftists hate Pell? They hate Christianity, and Pell WOULD NOT SUBMIT THE RCC TO LGBT AGENDA.

The reality however, is Pell was a pioneer in actually dealing with the issue of pedophilia in an era when perpetrators were considered more credible/respected than victims.

BUT, the hypocritical Left TODAY REMAIN SILENT about the current pedophilia in Aboriginal communities where perpetrators are protected even by the child's parents. For the heartless Left this is ok thus ignored by Leftist media.

---Haz27 on 4/4/16


\\Cluny. Is that your unsubstantiated sarcasism again, or are you just deluded? It's hard to tell with you.
---Haz27 on 4/3/16\\

Haz, your paranoia (unreasonable fear) is obvious on every post you make on this particular blog.

It seems to embrace everyone who doesn't agree with you that the goblins are gonna git us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/16


StrongAxe. You ALWAYS OPPOSE opposition to Leftists, and your excuses for this is unconvincing.

Evil prevails when good people do nothing. When Communist Leftists dominate media, universities, Hollywood, etc, using them to manipulate, bully society, then there is genuine reason for concern.
Your efforts at opposing all criticism of the Leftist PC tyranny, and excusing this whilst offering no alternative, only serves to do nothing so that evil prevails. Again I ask are you still content to say America deserves what it gets when you recognize the PC tyranny of the deluded and dangerous Communist Left?

Cluny. Is that your unsubstantiated sarcasism again, or are you just deluded? It's hard to tell with you.
---Haz27 on 4/3/16


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Monk_B. That's a very dishonest response you gave. An honest person would have actually substantiated their claims rather than resort to deceitful ad hominem attacks.

Perhaps you should consult your superior, or better still turn to God our Counsellor (Isa 9:6) about this episode of dishonesty. Hopefully you will learn from this experience and next time substantiate your claims instead.

When I first debated on CN years ago I recall I was shocked at my response in my first encounter with Mark V. I've learnt from these experiences debating on forums and am now better at keeping to rational, substantiated debate. I pray you too will learn.
---Haz27 on 4/3/16


Haz27 said, "Historically Communism has varied on LGBT. Lenin decriminalized it. Stalin re-criminalized it. But the Wests Communists have supported LGBT for decades...Islam also has a varied response to LGBT. Afghan culture and Ottoman culture, etc, embraced it.

LGBT activists oddly have openly shown support for Islam in spite of the likes of ISIS killing LGBT.

Communism and LGBT are strongly linked in the West, whilst Islam is supported by them merely as a useful propaganda issue to destabilize society."


Haz27, I am praying for you. Such fear and anger about something you know very little about must be oppressive. Cast off that demon of fear.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/3/16


Jerry. Yes, our freedom of speech is being attacked by Leftists and Islamists.

People here have faced Leftist controlled Human Rights courts simply for opposing LGBT lifestyles on public forums like FB.

As for our gun legislation, that's a failure, as confirmed by Don Weatherburn who was head of the Bureau of Crime Statistics. He found that in spite of legal gun ownership increasing in recent years, the 1996 gun legislation had little to no effect on violence.

Dr J. Baker and Dr S McPhedran wrote in the Journal of Criminology that they found our gun legislation had no impact on homocide.

Yet the Leftist liars in the media and politics avoid these facts. I hear DEMs are just as corrupt and deceitful as our Leftists.
---Haz27 on 4/3/16


Haz27:

How is telling you their beliefs are legal by American law opposing YOU? I am just stating a fact, in the same way that if you try to put out a fire with gasoline, I would say "That won't do any good. You need a different approach".

Considering that Communists have succeeded with their goals

Oh? Most western communist European nations are gone, China is becoming more capitalistic, and North Korea is pathetic.

"America deserves what it gets"?

In the context of "If 3/4 of Americans would be so deluded to swap the constitution for a Communist one, they would deserve what they get", just as someone who shoves a fork in a toaster deserves to get electrocuted.
---StrongAxe on 4/3/16


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It must be terrible to live with the deep and systemic fear you do, Haz27.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/16


StrongAxe. Evil prevails when good people do nothing
Whilst you admit the Communist Left are "deluded and dangerous", you then oppose anyone who opposes them.

Considering that Communists have succeeded with their goals (see 1958 book "The Naked Communist") in infiltrating and dominating media, Hollywood, universities, politics, etc, then why would you argue against those who oppose these "deluded and dangerous" PC thought police?
Leftists dominate the leading institutions to manipulate, brainwash and bully society to take control. Considering these facts are you really content to continue arguing against those opposing Leftists and still say "America deserves what it gets"?
---Haz27 on 4/2/16


"suspicion and false theories that hold no water"Samuel.

Samuel, perhaps it's time you actually substantiated your claim.

BTW, Christians know this world will get worse before Christ's return so why are you defending the Communist Left and the Islamists?
As a Christian you should recognize what these anti-Christ (1John 2:22) totalitarians are clearly doing to the West, instead of pretending it's not happening.

We already know God wins. We should continue to preach the gospel regardless of the efforts of Leftists and Islamists. But to argue that it's all good in spite of the evil of the Leftists and Islamists, suggests to me you're like that proverbial frog slowly being brought to a boil in a pot.
---Haz27 on 4/2/16


Haz: Our friend StrongAxe enjoys the freedom of speech afforded him in America - even though he is a Canadian. He should thank our military for their sacrifices to preserve that right. Yet the left wing radical Democrats he supports are in an all-out war to dismantle our free speech through political correctness and to take our right to keep and bear arms away (as the government did in your country).

His Democrat party is currently running two communists for president - one in the closet and one out.


---jerry6593 on 4/3/16


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Haz27:

You wrote: Then why help the Communists by defending their efforts at undermining society?

When have I ever DEFENDED their efforts to undermine society? All I have been doing, repeatedly, is to say that their beliefs are deluded and dangerous, but NOT illegal. How is this defending them?

If you feel uncomfortable with free speech about wacko religions and politics being legal in the U.S., you are free to immigrate here, take up citizenship, and push for a constitutional amendment to repeal the First Amendment. And good luck with that. But until that happens, you and I both have to live with its ramifications, whether we like it or not.
---StrongAxe on 4/2/16


Monk_B. Communism, Islam and LGBT are linked.

Historically Communism has varied on LGBT. Lenin decriminalized it. Stalin re-criminalized it.
But the Wests Communists have supported LGBT for decades.
Australian Marxist, Roz Ward, bragged at a Marxist conference that she developed the LGBT Safe Schools Coalition with the aim of implementing Marxism in schools.

Islam also has a varied response to LGBT. Afghan culture and Ottoman culture, etc, embraced it.

LGBT activists oddly have openly shown support for Islam in spite of the likes of ISIS killing LGBT.

Communism and LGBT are strongly linked in the West, whilst Islam is supported by them merely as a useful propaganda issue to destabilize society.

---Haz27 on 4/2/16


Well said and shown to be true Monk Brendan.

Jesus's kingdom is built and founded in love. Not in suspicion and false theories that hold no water.

The true enemy is not people. But the father of lies. Truth is based in Jesus and the Word of GOD.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/2/16


Haz 27 said, "But those who spread fear and lies are the devil, Communists through their PC tyranny, and their Islamist allies."

Haz, just a point of information. Marxist Communism is/was evil, and I abhor it. However, Marxism REQUIRES that its adherents must be atheist (or at least proclaim it publicly). Islam is a religion--a false one, but still a religion.

Islam, Marxism, and the LGBT crowd are three separate issues, and do not cross at any point.

Both Islam and Marxists HATE LGBT persons. Both Islam and LGBT persons hate Marxism. Both Marxists and LGBT people hate Islam.

There is no way that they can interact, team up, and make policies that will work.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/1/16


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" If they CAN convince 3/4 of Americans, then America deserves what it gets"-StrongAxe

Then why help the Communists by defending their efforts at undermining society?

History shows that the majority often succumbs to the tactics of a determined minority. And we see this today with the Marxist Left bullying society through the tyranny of political correctness.

Leftists DOMINATE the mainstream media, universities, politics, human rights commissions, even some churches, etc. The purpose is to deceive and bully society for their own political gain. And they're succeeding. The fact that you did not know the LGBT agenda was driven by Marxists confirms the Left's thought control through these organizations.
---Haz27 on 4/2/16


Haz27:

I have said no repeatedly, but my opinion is not relevant, since I have no say in what they do. I have not been saying questionable ideologies are desirable, just legal under the U.S. constitution. You can believe in any religion you want, even if it's Scientology. You can believe in any political ideology you want, even if it's Communism. The only thing illegal is advocating an overthrow of the government or other criminal activity.

If (say), Communists, wanted to turn the U.S. into a totally Communist nation, they are allowed to try, via constitutional amendment, but good luck convincing 3/4 of Americans to go along with it. If they CAN convince 3/4 of Americans, then America deserves what it gets.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/16


"Who spreads fear and lies so to take our eyes off of Jesus.
We need to be spreading the Gospel to the whole world now"


Yes, we should all be spreading the gospel now.

But those who spread fear and lies are the devil, Communists through their PC tyranny, and their Islamist allies.

Consider the recent incident in California where Christians evangelizing are being investigated for possible hate crime because a Muslim woman took offense. Under Sharia it's forbidden for Christians to evangelize to Muslims.

Also the city of Dearborn which is a serial violator of Christians constitutional rights. Dearborn's bias is towards Sharia law which forbids Christians to evangelize to Muslims.
---Haz27 on 4/1/16


Amen strong ax.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/1/16


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StrongAxe. There are 2 totalitarian ideologies seeking to take over the West. Communism and Islam.
I've already discussed Communism which has clearly infiltrated organizations, using these positions to manipulate and bully society into submission.

Islam through the Muslim Brotherhood's many front groups, likewise seeks to take over. The FBI found documents from a Brotherhood leader in U.S, stating that their aim is to eliminate and destroy Western civilization FROM WITHIN, sabotaging its miserable house so that Islam is victorious over all other religions.

History shows that Communism and Islam are 2 of the most heartless, murderous ideologies the world has seen. Do you really think they should be given any opportunity?
---Haz27 on 4/1/16


jerry6593:

I agree that it is a bad ideology, but so what? The first amendement doesn't only protect beliefs, speech, and religion that are safe and sane and reasonable that nobody would object to. It is necessary to protect unorthodox beliefs, wacky religions, and politically incorrect speech.

While you can't shout "fire!" in a crowded threatre, or "kill the cops!" in Times Square, you have the right to believe whatever you want, and advocate it in a non-violent way.

Arresting people for actively advocating a communist overthrow of the government would be legal. Arresting someone for merely having some friends who are suspected communist sympathizers would not be (but was frequently done under McCarthy).
---StrongAxe on 3/31/16


We need to keep our eye on the true enemy who upholds many false religions. Who spreads fear and lies so to take our eyes off of Jesus.

We need to be spreading the Gospel to the whole world now.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/31/16


Axey: "Few complained when McCarthy had his anti-communist witch-hunts, even though any political belief, even in one as stupid as Communism, is constitutionally protected."

The ultimate goal of Communism is world domination by a dictatorial elite. (The same may be said of Islam.) We now have two Democrat Communists running for president, and this on the heels of the destruction caused by our current Communist-in-Chief. We could use another McCarthy today.


---jerry6593 on 3/31/16


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///...God meant rulers for the good of...people...what if...evil rulers...do the people harm [1], are the people to do evil too? [?!] [2] God teaches us to do good not evil. Is it God who has evil rulers or are they ones who rebel against God...? [3]---Darlene_1 on 3/28/16///

Darlene: [1] What does the Bible say about how God deals with wicked rulers who abuse the people? [2] What does the Bible teach about people who do evil? [3] Doesn't the Bible say God has instituted government for our good? So, when rulers (governments) rebel against God, what does the Bible show us how God deals with them?

'Axe: Whether evil citizens or rulers/governments, God deals with all accordingly. The Bible (Genesis-Revelation) teaches that.
---Leon on 3/28/16


Leon:

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just trying to understand what you believe are our rights and responsibilities under evil leaders.


jerry6593:

Some did, but not enough. Americans too. White immigrant Americans sided with presidents who made treaties with natives, broke them, and then branded the natives as villains when they rose in protest, then drove them from their fertile lands into the wastes they now live in. White Americans were silent when Japanese American citizens were forced into internment camps in WW2. Few complained when McCarthy had his anti-communist witch-hunts, even though any political belief, even in one as stupid as Communism, is constitutionally protected.
---StrongAxe on 3/28/16


Leon God meant rulers for the good of the people but what if those are evil rulers who do the people harm,are the people to do evil too.God teaches us to do good not evil. Is it God who has evil rulers or are they ones who rebel against God and do evil ?
---Darlene_1 on 3/28/16


///Good, so you DON'T believe Romans 13:1-4 is absolute. (Those verses speak only of a government's privileges, and not its responsibilities. However, if you read further in the chapter, those responsibiltiies are mentioned.)...---StrongAxe on 3/27/16///

'Axe: It's obvious you're struggling to build a strawman. I've said what I had to say in the matter & I won't argue with you about it. Believe in error if that pleases you.
---Leon on 3/27/16


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Axey: "if anyone disagrees with what a government says or does, they have the right to take up arms against it. "

Too bad the Germans didn't do that with Hitler.


---jerry6593 on 3/28/16


Leon:

Good, so you DON'T believe Romans 13:1-4 is absolute. (Those verses speak only of a government's privileges, and not its responsibilities. However, if you read further in the chapter, those responsibiltiies are mentioned.)

Unfortunately, the flip side of this coin is you have people like the Bundy clan who think that if anyone disagrees with what a government says or does, they have the right to take up arms against it. They forget that there's a happy medium. Jesus said to "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, but to God what is God's".
---StrongAxe on 3/27/16


'Axe: What you say about Ro. 13:1-4 isn't true. Do you think God condones inhumane treatment by governments (rulers, kings, religious leaders) upon people? Look at the consequential devastation & loss of life in historical wars, here in the U.S. & abroad, because governments rebelled against God's word & will. Think about it. Therein lies the answer to your questions. As Scripture says, God raises up one & puts down another. (Ps. 75:6-7)

As Ro. 13:1-4 says, the powers that be are empowered by God to rule (govern) & maintain good order amongst the people. Governments are designed by God to be administering bodies of God. Governments that rebel against God are destroyed, by God, by use of warfare, etc.
---Leon on 3/27/16


It doesn't matter who the ruler is there is one thing Christians must do if they are good or bad rulers and that is obey the Word of God. If that goes against the ruler then we still must obey God. It says submit,just like it says submit to husbands that does not mean obey. No wife must obey a sinful husband either. We are the Bride of Christ because we are the blood bought Church and our obedience must be to God first and foremost regardless who is the ruler. Our King is the Lord God Almighty regardless who rules on earth.
---Darlene_1 on 3/26/16


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The Lord has all Authority. Maybe we don't like some things He does, but He always has a purpose. The slaughter of many nations, women and children. Not many mention that, but that too had a purpose. He knows the beginning and the end, To Him it is all complete, but to us we are still living this life. God can and does do as He pleases. It is after all His plan. He could have chosen another plan, but He didn't.
---Luke on 3/26/16


Leon:

Do you think the American Revolution was an unlawful and ungodly rebellion against the lawful rule of King George? Do you think the Allies were rebelling against God by invading Germany at the end of World War II to depose Hitler, or America invading Japan to depose Hirohito? Because according to a strict reading of Romans 13:1-4 they were. By the same rationale (and other scriptures), slaves in the South rebelling against their masters was also rebellion against God. Do you believe that too? Yet Jesus came to proclaim freedom to the captives, which conflicts with the lawful* ownership of slaves by their captors. So which prevails?

(*lawful = legally justified according to law. I am not claiming morally justified.)
---StrongAxe on 3/26/16


I enjoy and have learned a lot from J. MacArthur.

Yet I still disagree with him on some points.

Listening to those who disagree with you can often help you to learn a lot.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/25/16


///Leon:

You quoted: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...

This theory has been the basis for the so-called "divine right of kings"...
---StrongAxe on 3/24/16///

THEORY? Do you regard Scripture (Romans 13:1-4) as theory?
---Leon on 3/25/16


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"So does God appoint evil leaders? yes.

This fact highlights many contradictions that exist in Gods behavior: hes benevolent, yet gives rise to evil leaders, he leads his followers to vote for one leader, yet he appoints another, he guides the motives of all leaders, yet they still disagree, he orders his followers to do good, and then orders them to obey evil leaders, he punishes people who are helpless, and grants victory to evil tyrants, and he insists he establishes all authority, and then denies establishing all authority."


Romans 13:1-7
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God"
---Luke on 3/25/16


Strong ax. I appreciate your points so often. Thank you again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/25/16


First, be aware of how I myself can be wrong and misleading, and help others to be wise to me.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Qualified leaders are "examples" who help us get real with God and grow in how Jesus has us relating in love.

And 1 Timothy 3:1-10 presents the standards for who is qualified just to be considered to be trusted to "take care of the church of God". So, any truly good example will welcome you to test if he is qualified.
---Bill on 3/25/16


Cluny no I was not wrong nearly all the church people left and I mean nearly all maybe five families were left and it wasn't a small church. One night after church the Pastor had been very much off and I ask a Deacon "What will God hold us accountable for by staying?". He didn't know but I do now. The really hard thing for me is I liked him and his wife. He had always been great to me and his wife and I were becoming good friends. It was so sad because he really believed the things he made up,such as he told me Jesus got His blood from God. The Bible clearly says God is a Spirit. He made up other things that were far out like the blood being from God. I hope this explains a little.
---Darlene_1 on 3/25/16


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\\He is still there and some of those who never saw the truth are still there sitting under his teaching. It's really sad.
---Darlene_1 on 3/24/16
\\

Is there any possibility that maybe it's YOU who did not see the truth, Darlene?

You've not told us what he was teaching that was wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/24/16


Richardc:

You missed the point of my Reductio Ad Absurdum.

The Allies were right to crush Hitler. However, if one firmly believes all authorities were placed there by God, and rebellion against them is rebellion against God, (and Hitler was legally elected chancellor of Germany - he did not urusp that position), one must conclude that when the Allies removed Hitler from rulership over Germany, they were rebelling against God. Hitler's crimes against the allies had no bearing on his legitimacy as ruler of Germany.

Since the conclusion is absurd, the premise must also be absurd (i.e. that one must tolerate tyrants because they must be "appointed by God" merely because they are in power).
---StrongAxe on 3/24/16


Darline, that is exactly what I meant. Just as you said.
When I moved to another town, I went to many churches to see which one I could attend. In one church my wife and I walked out after hearing their teachings for ten minutes. We went to many churches, and finally found one which teach the truth. The members are kind of old as me so I fitted in real good. We do have quit a few young children. But the teaching are great. I tend to follow the teachings of John MacArthur even though he is dispensation.
---Luke on 3/25/16


Jerry 6593 no I am not speaking of Cults,I am speaking of Denominational preachers. I was in a church where there was one and I and a lot more people who knew the Bible left the false teaching and that church. He is still there and some of those who never saw the truth are still there sitting under his teaching. It's really sad.
---Darlene_1 on 3/24/16


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Allies did wrong by deposing Hitler ???????????????????????????

There was this thing called the Axis Powers - Germany Italy and Japan And this little event call Pearl Harbor !
---RichardC on 3/24/16


Leon:

You quoted: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...

This theory has been the basis for the so-called "divine right of kings". If that is taken strictly, the entirety of the United States has been in unlawful rebellion against God, for rebelling against King George, and the Allies did wrong by deposing Hitler, who was lawfully elected.

However, when rebels successfully overthrow a tyrant, one could just as easily argue that the rebels won because God wanted them to win, so THEY are now the legitimate rulers. So, in the end, in any war or rebellion, the winners are retroactively God's Chosen.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/16


Solomon : May be saved Maybe not ? Solomon Wrote Proverbs Ecclesiastes and songs of Solomon But He had Pagan Wife's and Worship pagan gods

{ Kings 11:3 - 13 }
---RichardC on 3/23/16


Darline, there is many false pastors preaching a different gospel. Many are believing what they preach. Some churches have thousands of people. It shows many people are lost.
We were told that would happen. There is thousands going to church that are lost. They need the truth.
Yet when a person tells them the truth, they reject it. They fight back. They do not want to give up what they have believed for years. But if we have a chance to give them the truth, maybe God will open their eyes so that they can see the truth. It still takes for God to open their eyes, ears and change their hearts.
Those who never heard the gospel at all, it is easier for them to accept the truth. They have not been brainwash.
---Luke on 3/24/16


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Darlene: What you are describing is a cult following - the following of a person rather than principle. We see it in the political as well as the religious world.



---jerry6593 on 3/24/16


Luke it spoke of Christian leaders,like Pastors now. Sadly some people are taken in by bad leaders,they just can't see the evil they do and hang on to being followers of them in spite of the evidence showing those leaders are evil and self serving. Perhaps the ones taken in are not mature enough or well read enough to see the leaders are bad. Yes I think a person who is close to God can know the bad ones from the good ones and if unsure we can always pray for God's leading. The reason I ask is because the Bible says if you even wish a,I'll say bad person,God speed you become partaker of their sins.
---Darlene_1 on 3/22/16


"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities... [there's] no authority except [what] God has established... authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, & those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right & [you'll] be commended. For the one in authority is Gods servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers [don't] bear the sword for [nothing. They're] Gods servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." (Ro. 13:1-4, NIV)
---Leon on 3/21/16


Darline, I believe that genuine believers in Christ cannot be deceived. When God saves someone, Jesus well never let him go. He loses none. Many speak so good that many are deceived. But I do not believe that believers in Christ will be deceived. They overcome anything.
---Luke on 3/22/16


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We are not to agree with the wrong. But when what they say is true. It behooves us to agree where possible.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/21/16


Who are "sinful leaders"?
"We are to lead people to Christ not be condoning people who do wrong."
True, however "we" are in no position to criticize them either. Only those who carnally consider themselves righteous, would deem another unrighteous.
"Yet some who adhere to them attack Christians and blame them because they don't accept the person who does wrong" Why would the "Christian" not accept them? One can accept the sinner without accepting or condoning their sin. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. The believe can, and should share Him and His teaching with all men. How can the sinner "call on Him in whom they have not believed?...." Rom 10:14,15
---josef on 3/20/16


"Balance" Darlene: Jesus taught us how to properly balance how we're to live in the secular world government while at the same time serving God.

"And He said to them, 'whose image & subscription is this?' They said, 'Caesar's.' Then [Jesus] said to them, '[Okay] give unto Caesar the things which are [his] ~ & [give] unto God the things that are God's'." (Matt. 22:20-21)

BALANCE!

Even though we're in the world, we're not to be of the world (Jn. 17:16). We're to be salt & light that draws people to Christ...
---Leon on 3/19/16


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