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Finish It Here April 2016

Finish here April 2016

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No, he didn't, Samuel.

He called James "the epistle of straw," even.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/16


Samuel BB said, "Protestants don't depend on a unbroken line of succession. We depend on the Word of GOD..."

Depend away. However, how do you KNOW that what is being taught is true? You can't. If everybody was depending on God's Word, there wouldn't be need for the traditions of the Church, and there would be one happy Christian Church all over the world.

How many different denominations are there just here in America? And aren't a lot of them arguing points of Free Will vs Predestination?

The Catholic Church has held a basic teaching of God's love, and has passed it down, unbroken for 2,000 years.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/8/16


while Luther disliked James and Esther he did accept them as inspired.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/16


Trav:

You wrote: Lev_26:7 ye shall chase your enemies, ...
This is only relevant if you consider immigrants enemies. ... Native Americans.
---StrongAxe on 5/7/16

Everything in scripture is relevant and pertinent. More especially to the people it was written by, to and for. You presume you are living today, that scripture is not taking place around you.
Take a closer look at the covenants in scripture, the ordinances still appear every day.
Jer_31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

P.S. Indians were not from America...they migrated. They took what they wanted. We, what GOD blessed us to take.
---Trav on 5/8/16


Cluny, that doesn't change the fact that Christians not only depend on the Promises of God, but His Word is a lamp unto our feet.

In the Word of God are the PROMISES OF GOD. HIs instruction to His Children. Now others may use the Word for other reasons, but not for the obedience of faith. Faith that comes by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.


The ONLY plan of salvation is in the Word of God.
---kathr4453 on 5/5/16




\\ We depend on the Word of GOD. \\

So did just about every heretic since Arius.

Some, like Marcion or Luther, tried to decide on their own authority what books were truly Canonical. Marcion, for example, accepted only St. Luke's Gospel and St. Paul's letters--none of the OT, or even Acts.

Luther claimed that Esther and James weren't really inspired.

It was indeed the Bishops of the Apostolic Succession that stood together and said they were wrong.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/4/16


2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Who were some of these unreasonable and wicked men? Well, we know that could have been said of Paul before he had faith. Paul murdered and persecuted the Church. Paul according to the LAW, was blameless. But the Law is not of faith.

Romans 10 give us a deeper understanding between law and faith. FAITH is faith in the PERSON of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection. Many can have a form of godliness but deny the Power, also described in 2 Timothy 3 as evil wicked men. If the POWER of His resurrection is not IN YOU, Christ is not IN YOU. And if Christ is not IN YOU, you are still WICKED and no truth is IN YOU.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/16


2 Timothy 3 -1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, and
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The Donald has many of these attributes, yet says he's a Christian. And has Christians following him. But GOD said they are NOT Christians and never were.
---kathr453 on 5/4/16


Agreed Monk Brendan there are good Bishops and many evil Protestant leaders.

Those evil Protestant leaders are tools of Satan and should not be followed. But neither should the evil Bishops or Popes who declared that evil men can still be followed as Christian leaders no matter who they murder of what they steal.

Protestants don't depend on a unbroken line of succession. We depend on the Word of GOD. We know there will be false leaders from the Bible which warns us of them. Yet even then many are tricked by them. Why? Because many don't follow the Scriptures.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/3/16


Yes, all NT writers except Luke were Jew, but Jews do not accept the NT (and other apocryphal books, also written by Jews)..
---StrongAxe on 5/2/16

Sorry StrongAxe, but Luke was a Jew. Where people get that Luke was a gentile is beyond me. No scripture says Luke was a gentile.
---kathr4453 on 5/3/16




Samuel BB said, "But first I am not speaking of men as being just sinners. But a person who claims to be a Bishop but is in fact serving Satan by not being what a Bishop is supposed to be. I am not saying that a false Teacher cannot Baptize and the baptism be valid.

I am saying that the Bishop is a false teacher and leader. So his actions and teachings are to work for Satan against GOD."


Most of the bishops I have known have been good men, humble, prayerful, and the perfect pastor.

True, there have been bad men that held the title of bishop, but then there have also been many, many Protestant pastors (and their higher ups) who have also been bad men, serving Satan.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/3/16


Yes, all NT writers except Luke were Jew, but Jews do not accept the NT (and other apocryphal books, also written by Jews)..
---StrongAxe on 5/2/16

You don't have a clue what your guessing about, your conjecture doesn't make sense. You stated...Jews wrote the N.T. but do not accept the N.T. Wow.
To you and most judah is all twelve of Israel. Has to be because you are too lazy to read scripture. Or too indoctrinated to change, perhaps you have a personal agenda.
It is not even known what tribe they represented. Luke was not even an Apostle!!
They certainly were not all Judean. In Revelations that each Apostle will be judging one of each of 12 tribes.
Paul a self elected apostle claims the tribe of Benjamin.
---Trav on 5/3/16


\\Do you believe that a false apostle who serves Satan is a valid teacher?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/2/16\\

I would say it depends on what he is teaching--or she.

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 5/3/16


Now what I am saying is not exactly donatism.

I believe that it is taught that it is a heresy. That you accept it as such.

But first I am not speaking of men as being just sinners. But a person who claims to be a Bishop but is in fact serving Satan by not being what a Bishop is supposed to be. I am not saying that a false Teacher cannot Baptize and the baptism be valid.

I am saying that the Bishop is a false teacher and leader. So his actions and teachings are to work for Satan against GOD.

2Corithians 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Do you believe that a false apostle who serves Satan is a valid teacher?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/2/16


Today Samuel, CHRIST IN YOU and You in Christ through the fellowship of His sufferings is what is conforming us to the image of Jesus Christ, NOT the image of the 10 commandments. There is also OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. ROMANS 16:24-27 kathr4453

In the Image of Christ we will not worship other gods, not bow down to idols, not take the name of GOD in vain, Not lie, commit adultery, steal, covet or murder. Those in the image of Christ don't break the Ten Commandments because they define sins. Romans 13:8-10

Your point is mostly correct. You just seem to think that disobeying the Ten Commandments is not a sin. Which I don't understand how being like Jesus make it okay to live in sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/2/16


Samuel BB said, " Forgive me. But I don't know what BCV stands for. Sorry. Maybe it is just late."

Book (of the Bible) Chapter and Verse.

He also said, "I understand when he decided to betray Jesus he was no longer a true apostle. When he left the last supper he was a false apostle."

Believe it or not, Samuel, that is the heresy of Donatism, which says that the holiness of the sacrament (or Mass, or Baptism or anything else regarding the Church is not valid if the minister is a sinner.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, (Rom 3:23 KJV)
---Monk_Brendan on 5/2/16


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Samuel, thank you for showing we are NOT justified OR sanctified OR Glorified by the Law.

OK, Those who died in the wilderness who did not enter the promise land. Was it because they disobeyed THE LAW. Or does scripture say because they didn't have FAITH. You see, Hebrews shows us that the parallel re ENTERING IN, aka SALVATION, had nothing to do with the Law. What it did have to do with was A PROMISE. a promise first given to Abraham. And Abraham did not receive the PROMISE through the LAW.

Today Samuel, CHRIST IN YOU and You in Christ through the fellowship of His sufferings is what is conforming us to the image of Jesus Christ, NOT the image of the 10 commandments. There is also OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. ROMANS 16:24-27
---kathr4453 on 5/2/16


Romans 16:25-26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Samuel, I see you cherry picked a few scriptures in Romans, ...but unless you read ALL OF ROMANS, yes ALL, you will never understand Paul's conclusion of the whole letter. The LAW is not even mentioned here. Commandment and obedience of faith is. Did you know FAITH is also a commandment. The very first person to obey it was Abel.
---kathr453 on 5/2/16


Yes Kathyr I understand what happened at the cross. But I also remember what Paul wrote to us in Romans.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Read Romans 6 and 13. Your understanding needs to agree with what the Bible says.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/16


servants of Satan will be in heaven.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/16

Samuel, Matthew is Kingdom LAW, not Grace. It does not apply to this dispensation of Grace. We are not forgiven BECSUSE we have forgiven others, but we are forgiven because of Jesus shed blood, and His taking our sin upon Him.

During the 1000 years the teachings of Matthew will come into play. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. And justice will be swift.

I do find it very interesting Samuel, that you only stay in the OT..an eye for an eye teaching, which that is by the way, or Kingdom Law, legalism.

Don't you understand what happened at the CROSS?
---kathr4453 on 5/1/16


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Samuel please read Jude again. Jude is warning those who are saved about men creeping in their churches with the soul purpose of destroying the faith. He is not warning them that they are the creeps, the liars, the bags of wind. Paul, Peter John in 2nd John and 3rd John say the same thing. John even says DON't let them in or even give them a handshake. Many use that to reject the JW's when they come to the door.

These evil men were never saved as Jude says. But evil from the beginning. So NO they did not lose their salvation. Comparing them to the fallen angels is saying they are without hope. Angels who,fell too are without hope.
---kathr453 on 5/1/16


Jude says angels lost their positions. These men thought they were better then angels and could not lose their position.

They believed you can serve the devil and GOD. You can hate others and refuse to forgive others and still are saved.

Mat 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So do you believe unforgiving servants of Satan will be in heaven.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/16


Samuel Samuel Samuel, Jude in no way says one can lose their salvation. It's reminding Christians that those who trouble us WILL face judgement.

The BIBLE teaches that those who began with you but departed, were NEVER saved in the first place.

When God delivered Israel out of Egypt, they may have been saved from bondage in Egypt, but they were not SAVED from SIN. The Goal was the Promise land, not the desert. When they failed to ENTER IN, they showed they were without FAITH to begin with. They didn't LOSE anything, because they never had it or possession of the Land in the first place. NOW if you do see any scripture where after they entered in, they were thrown back, or went back to Egypt...we'll discuss.
---kathr4453 on 5/1/16


Samuel, please learn how to cross reference. The Bible does not contradict itself. Our ignorance does.

Hebrews 4.....lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world......

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
---kathr453 on 5/1/16


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Forgive me. But I don't know what BCV stands for. Sorry. Maybe it is just late.

A person who is saved can be lost again. A person no matter if ordained or not. If they choose to reject Christ is lost and does not retain their position. They are false apostles.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7-16
---Samuelbb7 on 4/30/16


\\I understand when he decided to betray Jesus he was no longer a true apostle. When he left the last supper he was a false apostle. \\

BCV, Samuel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/25/16


I have heard this argument before using Judas.

Answer this question first. If Judas had not committed suicide and not repented would he still be a true apostle?

I understand when he decided to betray Jesus he was no longer a true apostle. When he left the last supper he was a false apostle.

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Pe 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Read all of this chapter.
agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/24/16


Samuelbb7, was Judas a true apostle, despite his later falling away?

Was he not just as called by Christ as the other 11?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/23/16


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Samuel BB said, "My argument that those who don't fit these points are not true Bishops."

The first prayer of ordination of a bishop begins like this: The Divine Grace, which ever heals what is weak and completes what is lacking, ordains the most devout Presbyter N. Let us, therefore, pray for him, that the Grace of
the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.

We trust that the Holy Spirit will do what God says He will do. If a man is not married, then God gives him the grace to make up for what he is lacking.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/22/16


///Leon said,"Ok Monk: Stop waffling! Which is it? Does your church "rules" allow for priest to marry or not?"

In the Melkite Catholic Church, and most other Eastern Catholic Churches, a married man can be ordained to the priesthood. However, if he is not married when he is ordained, then he must remain single and celibate. The Roman Church requires that all priests are single and celibate.---Monk_Brendanon 4/22/16///

There's the rub Monk. If the Bible says priest can marry, why does your church say they can't if they're not already married prior to ordaination?
---Leon on 4/22/16


Leon said, "Ok Monk: Stop waffling! Which is it? Does your church "rules" allow for priest to marry or not?"

In the Melkite Catholic Church, and most other Eastern Catholic Churches, a married man can be ordained to the priesthood. However, if he is not married when he is ordained, then he must remain single and celibate.

The Roman Church requires that all priests are single and celibate.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/22/16


\\My argument that those who don't fit these points are not true Bishops.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21\\

I disagree.

Such persons might receive the episcopate unto their own damnation, if they do not repent, as Thomas Becket did.

But they are still true bishops if canonically and validly consecrated.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/22/16


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Being married is not the only restriction to be a Bishop.

If they are not married they could still be a bishop. But they must be.

1Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach,
Titus 1:7-9
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God, not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre,But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate, Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

My argument that those who don't fit these points are not true Bishops.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/21/16


1 Timothy 3:1-3 KJV "This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach, Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous,"

Based on things that happened since that was written, a few things have changed. Now, a man must be without a wife or family (widower or monk). This is to stop relatives from looting a Church after the bishop has died.---Monk_Brendanon 4/17/16///

Ok Monk: Stop waffling! Which is it? Does your church "rules" allow for priest to marry or not?
---Leon on 4/21/16


Leon said, "Monk: The only Bible restriction for bishop, etc., being married is that they have only one wife. Your religious persuasion says ministers aren't to have wives at all. That is a radical departure (BIG CHANGE) from what Scripture says & as a consequence has over the years become severely problematic for unchaste priest as well as the parishioners they've been preying upon."

Leon, you did not research as I asked. Rather, you trotted out all of your own stupid hostilities to the Catholic Church. As usual, you are WRONG AGAIN!

BTW, most Eastern Catholic and Orthodox priests are married.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/21/16


Monk: The only Bible restriction for bishop, etc., being married is that they have only one wife. Your religious persuasion says ministers aren't to have wives at all. That is a radical departure (BIG CHANGE) from what Scripture says & as a consequence has over the years become severely problematic for unchaste priest as well as the parishioners they've been preying upon.
---Leon on 4/21/16


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Leon said, " Never mind Monk. You'll never be able to satisfactorily explain that lunacy to me. It's too bizarre."

Leon, a small amount of research on the internet (using non-biased sites) will give you some reasons.

Do a Google search on: Why are Orthodox bishops unmarried? The first hit is from St. Mary's Orthodox Church in Cambridge MA.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/21/16


Never mind Monk. You'll never be able to satisfactorily explain that lunacy to me. It's too bizarre.
---Leon on 4/20/16


Leon said, "Monk: Let's see if I got it right. You're saying Scripture hasn't changed, but the way your church deals with that particular section of Scripture has been superseded by a man made rule to fit your church's "Christian" looting problem???!"

No, you (purposely) misunderstand, and twist my words. so let's start again.

The Scripture says that a bishop (elder) must be the husband of but one wife--in other words, no 2nd wives, concubines, serving girls, etc.

I said that the Catholic and Orthodox churches made the rules stricter than that, because there had been times in the past when a bishop's wife would claim that the Cathedral belonged to her because it had belonged to her husband.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/20/16


Monk: Your recent gobbledygook has absolutely nothing to do with my 4/18 question. Please get real & stop posturing yourself in denial. We're very tired of your cognitive dissonance. Smh
---Leon on 4/20/16


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Leon said, "Let's see if I got it right. You're saying Scripture hasn't changed, but the way your church deals with that particular section of Scripture has been superseded by a man made rule to fit your church's "Christian" looting problem???!"

Have you ever seen a church split in two? I have. Three times. It is messy, and every so often one of the people in the middle of it gets hauled off to jail.

All of these churches were Holy Spirit led, filled with people who were all Christians. But in one case, the pastor of the original church had to move to Florida--in the middle of the night--to escape the sheriff.

All three churches were left in shambles, and their flocks were scattered.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/19/16


Samuel BB said, "But that women were prophets in the Bible is also true and they were also in the New Testament.

Acts 2:17 and Acts 21:9

I just repeated what the Scriptures said. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (KJV 1Cor 14:34)

Now, I have no problem with prophecy, but it must be in order, as you know.

I really don't have a problem with women speaking in church, either. And the word "silence" that the KJV uses is a term that (in Greek) means "silent prayer."
---Monk_Brendan on 4/19/16


Monk when you state true facts you are doing nothing for which I have to forgive you.

We argue about the meaning of that verse all the time. So we don't have agreement on it.

But that women were prophets in the Bible is also true and they were also in the New Testament.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 21:9
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/18/16


Samuel BB said, "...Back when all the bishops were equal before the Pontifix Maximus of Rome tried to usurp authority over all the other Bishops."

The Pontifex Maximus was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was before the Christian era, so obviously, you are thinking about something else.

I will recommend to you a book I have mentioned before on these blogs: Lives of The Popes- Reissue: The Pontiffs from St. Peter to Benedict XVI by Richard P. McBrien.

Once you've read that, we can discuss the papacy intelligently.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/16


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Leon said, "HUH?!!! Who changed Scripture Monk?"

Nobody changed Scripture! This was set up as a rule by all the pre-reformation Churches. [What?!!! smh]

And it was set up to keep the wife and/or children of the bishop...from looting the Cathedral...after the bishop died. [WHAT...?!!! Christians?]

Simple, not complicated, and totally in line with Exodus 20 [HUH?!!! smh]---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/16///

Monk: Let's see if I got it right. You're saying Scripture hasn't changed, but the way your church deals with that particular section of Scripture has been superseded by a man made rule to fit your church's "Christian" looting problem???!
---Leon on 4/18/16


Rob, many Orthodox bishops are widowers.

So are many Orthodox abbesses widowed. In fact, all things being equal, it is preferred an abbess be a widow rather than never married.

If St. Paul's words about "being the husband of one wife" were interpreted as a command for bishops to be married (which it clearly does not mean), then St. Paul himself could not have exercised the ministry he did, because he was NOT married, Neither was St. John.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/16


Leon said, "HUH?!!! Who changed Scripture Monk?"

Nobody changed Scripture! This was set up as a rule by all the pre-reformation Churches.

And it was set up to keep the wife and/or children of the bishop to keep them from looting the Cathedral at some time after the bishop died.

Simple, not complicated, and totally in line with Exodus 20
---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/16


Samuel BB said, "There have been good Popes. But many evil men. So the evil men show the link was broken."

Samuel, forgive me, but Ellen G. White led your church for several years. And you have ordained women in many pulpits across America. However, the Bible says:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (KJV 1Cor 14:34)

Doesn't that invalidate any authority that your church has?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/16


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\\Yes it is now called a Heresy to say that a Evil man is evil and not fit for office so not a true leader. \\

That is not what I said, Samuel, and you know it. For shame!

As I said, grave person sin unfits one for ministry, whether committed before ordination and later discovered, or afterwards.

But this does not break the validity of the succession, as you claim.

We have had two presidents impeached and tried on the impeachment. This did not break the succession of the presidency going back to George Washington.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/16


///...This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach,

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous,

Based on things that happened since that was written, a few things have changed. Now, a man must be without a wife or family (widower or monk). This is to stop relatives from looting a Church after the bishop has died.---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/16///

HUH?!!! Who changed Scripture Monk?
---Leon on 4/18/16


Yes it is now called a Heresy to say that a Evil man is evil and not fit for office so not a true leader.

But what does the Bible say.

read Jude. 2 Peter.

3John 1:9-11

I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/18/16


\\But many evil men. So the evil men show the link was broken.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/16\\

That's the heresy of Donatism.

The efficacy of the sacraments a minister celebrates or how he exercises his office is NOT embrued by his own personal sins.

This does NOT mean that a immoral minister may not do so unto his own damnation.

But these are are grace-filled for those who approach them with the proper spiritual preparation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/17/16


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Many of the Popes had multiple concubines but no wives since they ruled it was wrong. Peter had a wife.

Many were given to riches and alcohol.

There have been good Popes. But many evil men. So the evil men show the link was broken.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/16


Regarding your 4/13 comments Monk, "venerate" is a synonym meaning "WORSHIP". Scripture forbids the worshipping of any created thing. Worship is reserved for God, the Creator, alone (not the Pope, cardinals, arch bishops...religiously chosen saints).
---Leon on 4/17/16


Rob asked, "Monk Brendan, according to what is written in Scripture, what criteria must be met for person to become a Bishop/Elder?"


1 Timothy 3:1-3KJV

This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach,

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous,

Based on things that happened since that was written, a few things have changed. Now, a man must be without a wife or family (widower or monk). This is to stop relatives from looting a Church after the bishop has died.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/16


Samuel BB said, "Venerate means to hold in great respect and awe. I have respect for the saints. But they don't inspire me with awe. GOD alone inspires with awe. We are to pray to Our Father in Heaven. As Jesus said."

Merriam-Webster defines "VENERATE" as:
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference

2: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

There is nothing about awe. God is full of awe, and we are to worship Him alone.

(I will bow and kiss an icon, but I have a great deal of respect for the saints.)
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/16


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On the Antipopes. I mentioned that one time there were three popes. He answered once. I pointed out there had been about 40 antipopes.

I thought more then just the Bishop of Alexander used it. Back when all the bishops were equal before the Pontifix Maximus of Rome tried to usurp authority over all the other Bishops.
---Sameuelbb7 on 4/17/16


\\You are ignoring the preschism church when all the Bishops in other areas were also popes and all were equal."\\

Samuel, bishops were NEVER called popes in the pre-schism church, except for the bishop of Alexandria.

And who denies there were antipopes?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/16/16


Monk Brendan, according to what is written in Scripture, what criteria must be met for person to become a Bishop/Elder?
---Rob on 4/17/16


Type in antipope and find the number.

There were about 40.

Also look up Popes in Aviogn. Where they built a palace.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/16/16


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In another blog Samuel BB said, "Monk Brendan along with the fact that in certain times there were up to three popes in the RCC at the same time."

ONCE

I did ask you to read a book: Lives of The Popes- Reissue: The Pontiffs from St. Peter to Benedict XVI by Richard P. McBrien

I asked you to read this book and then we could talk about the history of the Church.

"You are ignoring the preschism church when all the Bishops in other areas were also popes and all were equal."

All bishops are equal, from Bp Malloy of the Diocese of Rockford, Illinois to Pope Francis.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/16


\\Praying FOR someone and praying TO someone are quite different.\\

Explain the difference, prithee (deliberate choice of word).

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/14/16


\\He stated we don't worship the statues they are our representative of our gods. \\

Except that Hindu deities are really demons--if not Satan herself.

Christian saints are ordinary people who lived extraordinarily.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/15/16


I ran across a statement by a Hindu Leader. He stated we don't worship the statues they are our representative of our gods. We bow to them to show we are praying to our gods.

Venerate means to hold in great respect and awe. I have respect for the saints. But they don't inspire me with awe. GOD alone inspires with awe. We are to pray to Our Father in Heaven. As Jesus said.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/14/16


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It's not even about worship or veneration.
The commandment says "You shall not bow down to them"
Isn't that what most do?
Cluny, you don't see difference between asking and praying?
Praying FOR someone and praying TO someone are quite different.
These questions are non-sequitur.
---micha9344 on 4/14/16


Micha9344 said, "Many RCC I know would rather pray to Mary or their patron saint than to God.

Also, since Jesus is truly God and RCC has stutues of Jesus, would one only be rendering "reverence to the subject of the icon/statue, and not to the paint, wood or stone"?"


Do you worship statues of Jesus? No. The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that we are not to worship paint, wood or stone. Nor does anyone that I know.

We worship only God!

We venerate, as heroes of the Church, the various saints and martyrs.

I have a great devotion to Mary, but I do not worship her, nor does anyone I know. Mary is worthy of veneration, but not adoration.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/16


\\Yes,
Many RCC I know would rather pray to Mary or their patron saint than to God.\\

Have you asked them? How many? What did they tell you? Be honest.

If there is only one mediator between God and man, does this mean you don't ask others to pray for you?

Or you don't pray for others?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/13/16


Yes,
Many RCC I know would rather pray to Mary or their patron saint than to God.
But the Bible says there is only one mediator between man and God.
Also, since Jesus is truly God and RCC has stutues of Jesus, would one only be rendering "reverence to the subject of the icon/statue, and not to the paint, wood or stone"?
---micha9344 on 4/13/16


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\\Micha 9344 said, "Or do you deny that members of the RCC do actually worship the saints despite the official stance of the RCC?"\\

There may be some who do, but I personally do not know any.

Do you? Be honest.

May I point out that there are SDAs who believe that the US government is the second beast of Rev. 13, though this is not the official teaching of the SDA, according to Samuelbb7.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/13/16


Micha 9344 said, "Or do you deny that members of the RCC do actually worship the saints despite the official stance of the RCC?"

Absolutely!

There may be some people that might believe (or perceive), despite the teaching of the Church--that they are to worship saints, but the Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration--what contemporary English speakers call "worship"is to be given only to God.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/12/16


That is some poor interpretation there, Brendan.
You actually think Jeroboam had calves made and thought they were the being(s) that brought them out of Egypt?
Maybe he thought the gods indwelt the statues?
Secondly, I think most of us understand the "official" statement of the RCC about veneration and worship. That doesn't, however, match with actualities.
Or do you deny that members of the RCC do actually worship the saints despite the official stance of the RCC?
The stance seems quite semantic to me.
I guess as long as your other gods don't come before the true and living God.
But that can be said for anything that can take His place in our hearts.
Only God knows.
---micha9344 on 4/12/16


Micha9344 said, "So have pagan's throughout the millennia, and Jeroboam.
Or do you think that they thought their statues were the god?"


Obviously Jeroboam did. Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Pay attention, Micha. We worship God, alone. We venerate various saints, Mary, etc as heroes in the Church, but we do not worship them.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/11/16


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/BTW, I have told you before we render reverence to the subject of the icon/statue, and not to the paint, wood or stone.\-Monk_Brendan on 4/10/16
So have pagan's throughout the millennia, and Jeroboam.
Or do you think that they thought their statues were the god?
Acts 19:35 ...what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the [image] which fell down from Jupiter?
1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves [of] gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
---micha9344 on 4/11/16


Leon* Ruben: You say your point was not to debate, but yet you persist in debating the issue.

Well of course,

You keep saying you are the 'true born again' while others are just by name. You have said you will know that by their fruits, but then turn around and told me //Whether or not you're a born again Christian is between you and & God//4/15

So which is it?

I will ask again,

Are you infallible when it comes to interpreting scripture?

When it comes to a scripture verses, why are yours the correct one over mine?
---Ruben on 4/11/16


In another blog, Samuel BB said, "I had always heard it as opposed. You are correct the word comes from those who smash icons because they oppose them as idols.... So how do this give you permission to bow to statues and pictures?"

Does it matter whether you can see an image? How many images are in your Bible? You know, scenes of Noah and/or the Ark, scenes of Moses carrying the ten commandments, scenes from the life of Jesus? Are you now going to rip them out because someone might consider you to be bowing to images?

BTW, I have told you before we render reverence to the subject of the icon/statue, and not to the paint, wood or stone.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/10/16


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