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Ideas On Theosis

On Theosis


Why does Western Protestant Theology oppose the Eastern Christian idea of Theosis--that is, becoming partakers of His Divine Nature?

2Peter 1:4 and Heb 3:1

Also, John 3:16 and John 1:12

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Brendan state, "That is describing God by defining what He is not."

So, do you agree or disagree that the context in Numbers 23 is making a conparison between God and a man???

I asked you to show to us all how the context of Matt 22:32 is apophatic?please show us??

Remember, "Context of verse."
---john9346 on 6/13/16


John 9346 asked, "Brendan sir,

In regards to Numbers 23:19, explain to us how Balaam making a (conparison) between God and man is apophatic?

Also, could you show to us all how the context of Matt 22:32 is apophatic?"


My answer is in the post below.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/11/16


John 9346 said, "In regards to Numbers 23:19, explain to us how Balaam making a (conparison) between God and man is apophatic? Also, could you show to us all how the context of Matt 22:32 is apophatic?"

Num 23:19 says "God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent:..." Did you get that? God is not a man, or the son of man. That is describing God by defining what He is not.

Matt 22:32 says..."God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Again, describing God by defining what He is not.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/11/16


Brendan sir,

In regards to Numbers 23:19, explain to us how Balaam making a (conparison) between God and man is apophatic?

Also, could you show to us all how the context of Matt 22:32 is apophatic?
---john9346 on 6/6/16


John 9346 said, "Tell us, is the context of Num 23:19 and Matt 22:32 the "Nature of God." yes or no?"

Yes, they both point to the nature of God. One says, (basically) that God is not a liar. The other says that God is the God of the living, and not the dead.

Note that Jesus said that he was not the God of the dead. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead, and their soul had died, then there would be no need for Jesus to say this. Therefor, Jesus is saying that Abraham, et al. are alive, somewhere.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16




John 9346 said, "Sir, Tell us, what is the context of Numbers 23:19 and Matt 22:32??

Tell us, is the context of Num 23:19 and Matt 22:32 the "Nature of God." yes or no"


Numbers 23 is a continuation from Chapter 22, which tells how Balak, King of Moab, tried to get Balaam to prophesy against Israel. The verse in question is Balaam answering Balak. It is also apophatic, as it describes God with a negative. "God is not."
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16


Brendan,
Tell us, is the context of Num 23:19 and Matt 22:32 the "Nature of God." yes or no?
---john9346 on 5/25/16

These are the two most confused people on this blog site john. Climbing another way, Jhn 10:1. They cannot be reached with scripture. They do not accept scripture.
They will not answer Numbers 23 because to do so would be to admit that all the scriptures posted to Israel are specific to Israel. Logic is their teacher...and a poor one by their postings.
To be a partaker in the divine nature one would be the Wife of GOD or Son. Covenanted wife was Israel. Divorced/put away the Nth House of Ten, to be remarried/covenanted Heb 8:8 "and" Judah, possible through Christ's death. Heb 8, 13.
---Trav on 5/26/16


Brendan,

Sir, Tell us, what is the context of Numbers 23:19 and Matt 22:32??

Tell us, is the context of Num 23:19 and Matt 22:32 the "Nature of God." yes or no?
---john9346 on 5/25/16


John 9346 said, "
No sir, You have not done so based on Scripture.

I am asking you for the third time according to "Scripture."


God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Num 23:19 KJV)

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt 22:32 KJV)
---Monk_Brendan on 5/24/16


Brendan states, "I've given several examples in this blog."

No sir, You have not done so based on Scripture.

I am asking you for the third time according to "Scripture."

And neither have Cluny answered my question in regards to Rom 1:19??
---john9346 on 5/24/16




We become partakers of His divine nature when we become a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST.. "no longer I but Christ in me" and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of Him. We become partakers "by faith" in His Promises, just as scripture teaches. Not by works, or by injesting anything. If we believe we are being conformed to His image, as we are, being CHANGED from Glory to Glory RIGHT NOW, by the Spirit of the Lord, does not mean we are becoming god's or GODS.

It's HIs nature in us vs our old sin nature. This is sanctification. And our sanctification is as much by faith as our justification.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/16


John 9346 said, "Thank you for providing the eastern orthodox definition to those who do not know, but I asked you sir to show us where the God of the bible reveals himself (apophatic) to his creation?"

Cataphetic theology is theology that uses "positive" terminology to describe or refer to the divine specifically, God i.e. terminology that describes or refers to what the divine is believed to be, in contrast to the "negative" terminology used in apophatic theology to indicate what it is believed the divine is not.

I've given several examples in this blog
---Monk_Brendan on 5/17/16


"The human being does not become God by nature, but is merely a created god,"

Ware, Timothy The Orthodox Church page 232 ---
---john9346 on 5/16/16


Being partakers, i.e. taking part of, is not the same as becoming part of, nor becoming like.
I have partaken in sporting events. In a sense, I became part of the event, but I was not like the event, nor was I part of the whole nature of the event, such as the team or the building.
John 1:12 adopted.
1Pe 1:4 partaker, take part of.
Which reminds me of sharing a banana with my Dad. I partook, but it didn't make me a banana.
Ingesting the Divine things of God does not make one divine.
That would be Mysticism.
Heb 3:1 Let's just find everywhere that uses "partake" and eisegetically pronounce our doctrine.
---micha9344 on 5/16/16


Brendan ask, "If we partake in His divine nature, are we not like Him? and as He is God, we also must be divine!"

Sir, have you looked up the greek word Peter used for, "Partakers."?

Did you read after vs4 verses 5-8 where peter explains what he meant in vs 4.


Brendan cited Heb 3:1, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus""

Sir, do you understand who Paul is talking about and to whom?
---john9346 on 5/15/16


john9346, I would rather NOT discuss the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis in front of people who don't even believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

If there is some way of your contacting me privately, that I will be willing to do.

In the meantime, read the article on this subject on Orthodoxwiki.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/12/16


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As I pointed out to you elsewhere, john, why do you call me sir?

That word is really "sire" which means "father."

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/12/16


Cluny states, "john9346, Romans 1:19 says
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them."

Sir a couple things:

1. Do you understand the context in which Paul is writing?

2. Really important? do you understand why these individuals are being judged??
---john9346 on 5/12/16


cluny states, "john9346, what you are calling theosis is NOT what the Orthodox Church means by it."


"If someone asks How can I become god? the answer is very simple: go to church, receive the sacraments regularly, pray to God in spirit and in truth, read the Gospels, follow the commandments."

(Ware, Timothy .

The Orthodox Church pg. 236)

---john9346 on 5/12/16


Brendan states, "John, Apophatic theology is a type of theological thinking that attempts to describe God, the Divine Good, by negation, to speak only in terms of what may not be said about the perfect goodness that is God."

Thank you for providing the eastern orthodox definition to those who do not know, but I asked you sir to show us where the God of the bible reveals himself (apophatic) to his creation?

Please show us in the context of Holy Scripture??

Thank You,

John
---john9346 on 5/11/16


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Brendan states, "You READ these books, and I will be able to answer your questions, and you will understand me."

Sir, if you pay close attention, my question was centered on Holy Scripture.

We have seen earlier in this post what happens to those who state one thing, but EO Theologians/authorities in books contradict them.

So, I am going to ask you again, to show us where the God of the bible reveals himself (apophatic) to his creation??
---john9346 on 5/11/16


John 9346 said, "I am still wating for Brendan to show us where 2Peter 1:4, Heb 3:1, John 1:12 and 3:16 and Gen 1:26-27 teaches that mankind can becomes "Gods."

In my original post, I said become partakers of His divine nature. I didn't say anything about becoming God. He is infinite. We are not.

Stop trying to twist my words.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/10/16


john9346, what you are calling theosis is NOT what the Orthodox Church means by it.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/10/16


John 9346 said, "I am still wating for Brendan to show us where 2Peter 1:4, Heb 3:1, John 1:12 and 3:16 and Gen 1:26-27 teaches that mankind can becomes "Gods."

2 Peter 1:4 says, "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

If we partake in His divine nature, are we not like Him? and as He is God, we also must be divine!

Heb 3:1 says "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus"

Again, partakers of the divine.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/9/16


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john9346, Romans 1:19 says

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them.

Note carefully that St. Paul is implying that we cannot know all about God, at least in this life.

And while we grow in the next life, from "glory to glory," as the Apostle says elsewhere, we never get to the end of it, since God is infinite.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/7/16


John 9346 said, questions that have not been answered:

1. I am still wating for Brendan to show us where 2Peter 1:4, Heb 3:1, John 1:12 and 3:16 and Gen 1:26-27 teaches that mankind can becomes "Gods."

2....3. I am still waiting for Cluny and Brendan to show us where the God of the bible reveals himself (apophatic) to his creation??"


John, Apophatic theology is a type of theological thinking that attempts to describe God, the Divine Good, by negation, to speak only in terms of what may not be said about the perfect goodness that is God.

BTW, have you read any of the books that I have suggested you read? Your answers will be in those books.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/6/16


John 9346 said, "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes"

Have you read The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware? How about The Orthodox Way by Timothy Ware?

Have you read Becoming Orthodox by Peter Gilquist? Or Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition by Michael Pomazansky and Seraphim Rose?
How about Facing East by Frederica Mathewes-Green?

You READ these books, and I will be able to answer your questions, and you will understand me.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/6/16


Cluny,

My point is you need to read the book like I said to you prior when you read the book then you will have the answer to the question you asked me.

If you have read the book which it apparent you haven't you wouldn't be basing your question to me based on a Non-Contextual Argument which I'm sure those who are reading this blog who want truth can find no substance
---john9346 on 5/5/16


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questions that have not been answered:

1. I am still wating for Brendan to show us where 2Peter 1:4, Heb 3:1, John 1:12 and 3:16 and Gen 1:26-27 teaches that mankind can becomes "Gods."

2. I am still waiting for Cluny and Brendan to show us where the God of the bible is separated from his energies as taught in Eastern Orthodox Theology?

3. I am still waiting for Cluny and Brendan to show us where the God of the bible reveals himself (apophatic) to his creation??
---john9346 on 5/5/16


\\so have you read "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes,"?
---john9346 on 5/4/16
\\

I may or may have not. I've read several works by him.

He and his father-in-law, Archpriest Alexander Schmemann were well-respected theologians, but are not necessarily the Universal Solvents.

What is your point?

Now please, answer my original question.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/4/16


so have you read "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes,"?
---john9346 on 5/4/16


I've read several of FR. Meyendorff's works.

Which ones have you read all the way through?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/3/16


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Cluny,

I think it would behoove you to read Mr. Meyendorff's Book, "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes,"

When you do that then you will have your answer.
---john9346 on 5/3/16


Trav said, "Mat_15:24...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Trav,...why are you arguing with me?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/16

Arguing? Ha. You presume what you haven't achieved. You have presented nothing scriptural or otherwise that will stand against the multiple scriptures...even about the lowly "Sheep".
You make wonderfull opportunity's to post scripture showing the "sheep" the pitfall of mens doctrine vs the simplicity of the shepherd of the sheep.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Eze_34:6 ...my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
---Trav on 5/3/16


\\Sir, tell us, do you disagree with Mr. Meyendorff,?
---john9346 on 5/3/16\\

Why don't you answer my question first? And it's FATHER Meyendorff.

Read a good basic book on Orthodox Christology first, such as Abp. Dmitri's DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. This must be believed before other teachings make sense.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/3/16


Cluny ask, "john9346, are you reading Fr. John Meyendorff and other Orthodox writers to find out what they say, or to merely cherrypick quotes taken out of context?"

Sir, tell us, do you disagree with Mr. Meyendorff,?
---john9346 on 5/3/16


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john9346, are you reading Fr. John Meyendorff and other Orthodox writers to find out what they say, or to merely cherrypick quotes taken out of context?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/3/16


Cluny states, "john9346 mentioned apophaticism as if he knew what he was talking about, saying it is where theosis comes from (it isn't)."

The whole of Byzantine theologyand particularly its experimental characterwould be completely misunderstood if one forgets its other pole of reference: apophatic, or negative theology...By saying what God is not, the theologian is really speaking the Truth, for no human word or thought is capable of comprehending what God is (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes, pp. 11,12).
---john9346 on 5/2/16


Brendan said, "Both of those assumptions are wrong. Apophaticism describes God by telling people what God is NOT."

Sir, In Christian Theology, The bible from Gen-rev shows "Who God is."

examples,

God is Spirit never God is not human.

God is love never God is not hate.

God is holy never God is not unholy.

You see, the Scriptures entire center and focus is that mankind knows his creator.

Sir, in Christian Theology, the God of the bible is personal and knowable

"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.'"

John 17:3).
---john9346 on 5/2/16


I think Cluny we might be in agreement. It could be that we just don't use the same words.

Or since I don't know exactly what you mean by some of your words.

But I do believe that we become partakers of His Divine Nature by the Holy Spirit in us when we are Born Again.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/17/16


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John (no numbers) said, "But apophaticism contributes to people not understanding the "Trinity." and "The Deity of Christ."

It attacks the knowability of God."


Both of those assumptions are wrong. Apophaticism describes God by telling people what God is NOT. God is not a faucet, for instance--although we get water from Him.

God is not an earthquake--although He holds the world in his hands.

Do you get the idea? Nothing is taken away from God. While we cannot understand all that He is--infinity is not understandable, we can say what He is NOT, making it easier to understand what we can of Him.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/17/16


\\Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That this is our lifelong goal. We are to be Godly so partake in the nature of GOD. \\

You're catching on, Samuel! :-)

It's a process that begins in this life, and continues in the World to Come.

We grow from glory to glory and never get to the end, because God is infinite.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/16/16


Well I have not studied this. So I am at a loss on how to answer or discuss this.

My understanding is that we are trying to be more GOD like. Not be gods. But that having been Born Again we are to strive to be like GOD in all the ways we can.

Another way is to say we want to be like Jesus. We want to live like him.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That this is our lifelong goal. We are to be Godly so partake in the nature of GOD.

Is this what you are talking about or am I off?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/16/16


\\But apophaticism contributes to people not understanding the "Trinity." and "The Deity of Christ."

It attacks the knowability of God.\\

john9346 mentioned apophaticism as if he knew what he was talking about, saying it is where theosis comes from (it isn't).

I was simply saying what ORTHODOX mean by apophaticism.

We will never know God completely, because His essence is infinite.

It's like the witness in court who said, "If I knew the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I would BE God!"

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/13/16


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Cluny said, "john9345, as I've said elsewhere, there is no point in discussing these matters in front of people who don't even believe in the Trinity, or that the Savior is God Incarnate."

But apophaticism contributes to people not understanding the "Trinity." and "The Deity of Christ."

It attacks the knowability of God.
---john on 4/13/16


Cluny said, "Monk Brendan has given the Scriptural foundations of the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis."

Brendan has cited verses,yet, the understanding of those verses we are all waiting for him to provide.

From Gen to Rev.,God is never separated from his "Energies."

example,

God is love never we find love to know God.

God is holy never we find holiness to find God.

God is good never we find goodness to find God.
---john9346 on 4/13/16


Trav said, "Mat_15:24...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Trav, if I am lost, and you have not been sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel, why are you arguing with me?

Enjoy your time in heaven, watching me burn!
---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/16


But you won't listen. Therefore...
---Monk_Brendan on 4/12/16

Mark 1, you have never said anything yet.
Mark 2, like your universal political cult, even your scriptural witnesses do not align.
Witness alignment:
Psa 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes, his judgments unto Israel.
Psa 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD. Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: ...
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,...
Mat_15:24...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 4/13/16


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Trav said, "Cowards way out, put it all on your catholic superior."

I did not put it all on my superiors. I gave you Scripture: 2Peter 1:4, Heb 3:1, John 3:16, and John 1:12. If you cannot accept Scripture, then

Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Lev 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Prov 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Prov 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

But you won't listen. Therefore...
---Monk_Brendan on 4/12/16


Monk Brendan has given the Scriptural foundations of the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis ...
Those who refuse to understand--
---Cluny on 4/11/16

Cowards way out, put it all on your catholic superior. Refuse to understand. We all understand that brendan has given nothing scriptural to support anything he has ever said here, about rcc doctrines of men.
You have given less about the orthodox.
Since you are the orthodox post the scriptural witness both the O.T. and the New Covenant Testament.

1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
---Trav on 4/12/16


Apophaticism from Orthodowiki:

Apophatic theologyalso known as negative theologyis a theology that attempts to describe God by negation, to speak of God only in absolutely certain terms and to avoid what may not be said. In Orthodox Christianity, apophatic theology is based on the assumption that God's essence is unknowable or ineffable and on the recognition of the inadequacy of human language to describe God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/12/16


Brendan asked, "If Theosis is not mankind becoming gods, then why were Adam and Eve made in God's image and likeness."

Sir, Adam and Eve were not divine unlike what is taught in Eastern Orthodox Theology.

Do you Remember the Serpent's Conversation with Eve?
---john9346 on 4/11/16


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john9345, as I've said elsewhere, there is no point in discussing these matters in front of people who don't even believe in the Trinity, or that the Savior is God Incarnate.

Monk Brendan has given the Scriptural foundations of the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis (which is not supposed to be understood in a Mormonoid sense).

Those who are truly born again will understand this.

Those who refuse to understand--well I will be silent about what follows.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/11/16


Cluny sir,

Tell the readers/viewers, how am I wrong?
---john9346 on 4/11/16


\\The teaching of theosis is centered on apophaticism.
---john9346 on 4/10/16\\

Wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/11/16


Theosis huh? That doctrine of demons is synonymous to psychosis, the same delusion of grandeur (pride) that Lucifer/Satan suffers from wherein he thought he, a creature, could be a god equal to God. That's what your EOC teaches Monk. Doctrine of demons!
---Leon on 4/10/16


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Brendan you ask, "Why does Western Protestant Theology oppose the Eastern Christian idea of Theosis--that is, becoming partakers of His Divine Nature?"

First,
2 Pet 1:4 does not teach that mankind can become gods as taught in Eastern Orthodox Theology.

All Christians reject Theosis. Exo 20:1-5

Sir, I am sure you must know that most people on here are not going to know what Theosis is unless they have studied Eastern Orthodox Doctrines.
The teaching of theosis is centered on apophaticism.
---john9346 on 4/10/16


"If someone asks How can I become god? the answer is very simple: go to church, receive the sacraments regularly, pray to God in spirit and in truth, read the Gospels, follow the commandments."

(Ware, Timothy .

The Orthodox Church pg. 236)
---john on 4/10/16


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