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Explain Bible History

On the perceived errors of the Catholic Church:

If we have to have this discussion, then one topic at a time. This time, let's talk about how the Bible came to us, and who gave it its authority.

(As most here speak English, lets use English)

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 4/13/16
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Micha and strongaxe,

Please note following:

A close exam/study reveals:

1. There are variations in what Jude states.

2. The statement alleged Jude quoted from Enoch is actually grounded in the OT.

"It is to be noted that the whole New Testament contains not even one explicit citation of any of the Old Testament Apocrypha which are considered as canonical by the Roman Catholic Church."

Dr. Roger Nicole (theologian, scholar, professor)

---john9346 on 5/2/16


John 9346 said, "Did you read number 60??"

On paragraph 60: The authenticity of paragraph 60 below (removed by brevity) has been doubted by many scholars because it is absent from various manuscripts containing the decrees of the regional (Galatian) Council of Laodicea. The list may have been added later.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/2/16


questions that could not be answered:

1. Cluny could never tell us the dates of the 7 letters of Ignatius.

2. Cluny could never tell us if Ester contradict the rest of the Scriptures,yet, he was asked 2 times.

3. Brendan could never provide us any Physical Evidence for the rcc even a source/authority,yet, he stated he did research.

4. Brendan could never cite where Nicaea said they finalized the Scriptures.

5. Cluny and Brendan could never cite for us where any church father taught and believe they "Gave the world the bible."or "Gave the bible its authority."

Gentleman, I ask you to repent and believe in the Jesus of Scripture.
---john9346 on 5/2/16


A Handbook of Patrology
By The Rev. J. Tixeront,
Published in St. Louis, MO, by B. Herder Book Co.

In this book, speaking about the letters of St. Ignatius

When were these letters written? Evidently at a date which coincides closely with that of the death of St. Ignatius, although it is difficult to fix this date exactly. One thing alone seems certain, vis., that Ignatius suffered martyrdom under Trajan (98-117). The acts of his martyrdom indicate the ninth year of Trajan (107), St. Jerome[11] says the eleventh year (109). We shall hardly err, therefore, if we place the date of his martyrdom, and consequently also that of the composition of his letters, about the year 110.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/2/16


john9346:

Yes, Esther fulfils #6 (which, in the end, is the most important test). However, because it does not fulfil #1, it means that your criterion #1 is not a reliable indicator of what is scripture and what isn't.

Compare Jude 1:14-15 with 1 Enoch 2:
"Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him."

Yes, all NT writers except Luke were Jew, but Jews do not accept the NT (and other apocryphal books, also written by Jews) as scripture
---StrongAxe on 5/2/16




/Jude DID authoritatively quote Enoch, even though it was only a century old and thus obviously not written by Enoch.\-john9346 on 5/2/16
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Gen 5:3 And Adam...begat...Seth:
6 And Seth...begat Enos:
9 And Enos...begat Cainan:
12 And Cainan...begat Mahalaleel:
15 And Mahalaleel...begat Jared:
18 And Jared...Enoch:
21 And Enoch...
-Scripture says it was Enoch and he was the seventh generation.
What evidence do you have, john, that makes you think it was not the Enoch that walked with God?
Hebrews 11:5
---micha9344 on 5/2/16


\\Sir really??, the NT was given to us by Jews. Did you not know this?
---john9346 on 5/2/16\\

Luke was a Gentile.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/2/16


strongaxe:

You wrote:

"They didn't quote Esther either. Should we exclude Esther from canon then?"

Based on the criteria tell us does Ester contradict the rest of theScriptures?

"Jude DID authoritatively quote Enoch, even though it was only a century old and thus obviously not written by Enoch. Should we include Enoch in canon then?"

Cite for us tell us where does the Jews quote Enoch chapter and verse?

"Neither is the N.T."

Sir really??, the NT was given to us by Jews. Did you not know this?
---john9346 on 5/2/16


questions that have not been answered:

1. I am still waiting for Cluny to tell us the dates of the 7 letters of Ignatius.

2. I am still waiting for Cluny to tell us if Ester contradict the rest of the Scriptures.

3. I am still waiting for Brendan to provide for us the Physical Evidence for the rcc even a source/authority.

4. I am still waiting for Brendan to cite where Nicaea said they finalized the Scriptures.

5. I am still waiting for Cluny and Brendan to cite for us where any church father taught and believe they "Gave the world the bible."or "Gave the bible its authority."
---john9346 on 5/2/16


\\As we see, even during the reformation, and even a couple hundred years before...RE: Wycliffe, Hess\\

kathr, Wycliffe and HUSS (note the proper spelling of the name) were a century--not a "couple hundred years"--before the Reformation.

If you can't get your spellings or Bible verses straight, at least get your historical facts straight. OK?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/2/16




john9346:

You wrote: 1. Neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted the apocrypha.

They didn't quote Esther either. Should we exclude Esther from canon then?

Jude DID authoritatively quote Enoch, even though it was only a century old and thus obviously not written by Enoch. Should we include Enoch in canon then?

2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.

Neither is the N.T.

6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements

Does Esther?
---StrongAxe on 5/2/16


The true church is not of this world, as Jesus said, My Kingdom is not of this world, so NO the true church was not corrupted in 300ad or 2016 ad.

Now the imposter ...mystery Babylon, even from it's birth still has not corrupted the true Church.

As we see, even during the reformation, and even a couple hundred years before...RE: Wycliffe, Hess .....who never bent the knee to Baal, they saw an enemy of the True Church, but the Church has and will always have enemies.
---kathr4453 on 5/2/16


Cluny,

Mostpeople do not know thanks for providing it with that being said Samuelbb7 adequately responded to you.

Tell us, what are the dates of the 7 letters and thanks for saying 7 and not all of the 15 letters I appreciate your honesty.

"And you NEVER told us what FORGERIES were used to prove Papal Primacy and Infallibility."

Well, this blog is on the history of the Scriptures,however, to those who are seeking the truth I address this matter of the papacy on the blog, "Was The Church Corrupted 325."
---john9346 on 5/1/16


Brendan said, "Okay, have it your way!"

Sir, so, as not to confuse anyone reading Please cite where Nicaea addressed the finalization of the Scriptures??

What is contradictory is Nicaea defended the Deity of Christ based on Scripture Alone.

Note, this is long before Hippo and Carthage as the rcc says when the Scriptures were decided.
---john9346 on 5/1/16


Brendan states, "Laodicea was in 363-364 A.D., and the only thing that they specified was the 59th canon, which forbade the readings in church of uncanonical books."

Did you read number 60??


Are you aware that Nicaea defended the Deity of Christ based on Scripture Alone prior to Hippo and Carthage?
---john9346 on 5/1/16


\\"Then why was it translated ...\

I thought everybody who knew ANYTHING about Bible history knew that LXX (Roman numeral for 70) was the translation of the OT into Greek by 70 Jewish scholars at Alexandria.

\\First, which letters are you referencing remember many have false authorship and next can you give the date of these letters.\\

I'm referring to the seven letters St. Ignatius wrote on his way to his martyrdom in Rome.

He died in 108.

Summarize what you know about HOW his letters were not written by him.

And you NEVER told us what FORGERIES were used to prove Papal Primacy and Infallibility--not that Orthodox believe either.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/1/16


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Cluny wrote:

"They didn't quote from Esther or Obadiah, either. Does that mean these books are non canonical?"

The question you need to answer is do "Obadiah and Ester." contradict the rest of Scripture?? Can you answer this for us??

"Then why was it translated as part of the LXX TWO centuries before Christ?"

First, So everyone knows what you are talking about state your meaning of the LXX.

"Not the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch."

First, which letters are you referencing remember many have false authorship and next can you give the date of these letters.
---john9346 on 5/1/16


Brendan you wrote:

"But the point is that the decisions were made by a synod of bishops in any case,"

Agreed, but the real question is did they decide or recognize the Scriptures??

Remember, on another blog, you did admit that no church father ever taught or believed that they themselves "Gave the world the bible." or "Gave the bible its authority."bi
---john on 5/1/16


The Jewish scholars decided to add them to the list when the translated the Septuagint.

The are still considered by the Jews to be good books but not canon. As pointed out earlier so did other Christian Scholars.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/30/16


\\John 9346 said, "The 3 councils who made statements on the NT Books were Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage.\\

These were not Ecumenical Councils.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/28/16


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John 9346 said, "The 3 councils who made statements on the NT Books were Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage."

Okay, have it your way!

But the point is that the decisions were made by a synod of bishops in any case, and not by Luther or Calvin or any other Protestant. And the Bishops were Orthodox/Catholic Christians

Anyway Hippo was later than Nicea--in 393 A.D.

Laodicea was in 363-364 A.D., and the only thing that they specified was the 59th canon, which forbade the readings in church of uncanonical books.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/28/16


\\1. Neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted the apocrypha.\\

They didn't quote from Esther or Obadiah, either. Does that mean these books are non canonical?

\\2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.\\

Then why was it translated as part of the LXX TWO centuries before Christ?

And PLEASE, the word CANON does not have a double N in the middle.

\\3. All Apocryphal Writings (NT) come much later then the First Century.\\

Not the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch.

\\4. All Apocryphal Writings have False Authorship \\

Do they?




Glory to Jesus Christ!\
---Cluny on 4/28/16


To recap:

1. The New Testament Books were known, quoted, and defended centuries before the (Fourth Century)

2. The council of Nicaea in 325 AD had to do with the Deity of Christ not the NT Books.

3. The 3 councils who made statements on the NT Books were Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage.
---john9346 on 4/28/16


why the Apocrypha isn't "Scripture.":

1. Neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted the apocrypha.

2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.

3. All Apocryphal Writings (NT) come much later then the First Century.

4. All Apocryphal Writings have False Authorship


5. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Cannonical Books Gen-Revelations.


6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements such as "God Said." "Thus Says The Lord." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." "It is written," or "the Scriptures say." these statements alone mean "Inspiration." "Divine Authority."
---john9346 on 4/28/16


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\\As you know very well, I always cite sources/authorities so people can go read and learn for themselves the truth.\\

Like you cited sources for the "forjuries" (sic) of Papal primacy and infallibility?

I know you might want credit for doing so, but you didn't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/27/16


Brendan,

Sir, all I am asking you to do out of respect for you as a monk is to cite for everyone who is reading who is seeking the truth some sources/authorities??

As you know very well, I always cite sources/authorities so people can go read and learn for themselves the truth.

What is ironic is you can find time to make misspeling 1 word an issue, but you cant provide a guide for those who desire the truth...

I'd also put you in remembrance that monks are to set an example and not resort to juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks when asked questions based on Initiated Dialog/discussion.
---john9346 on 4/27/16


John 9346 said, "Sir, with much respect to you as a monk, I really don't find someone knowing the truth a joke or laughing matter."

Nor do I! However, within the bounds of the CN blogs, I cannot send you any evidence whatsoever, and you know that.

However, just as I am able to do, you can look things up on the internet. If you use unbiased sources, you can find a lot of things about the Catholic Church

"BTW, do to the forjuries regarding Papal Infallibility and Primacy why should anyone just believe the vatican."

How can you prove to me that they are forgeries (which is the correct way to spell the word?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/26/16


\\BTW, do to the forjuries regarding Papal Infallibility and Primacy why should anyone just believe the vatican.\\

And just what are the FORGERIES re Papal Infallibility and Primacy?

Be specific, please.

BTW, if someone can't spell a word properly, I've noticed that there's a good chance this person cannot use it properly.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/26/16


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Brendan states, "The evidence you ask for is in the Vatican, and other places around the world. I cannot lay hands on it right now."

Sir, with much respect to you as a monk, I really don't find someone knowing the truth a joke or laughing matter. There are millions of people on their way to hell and all you can do is joke about me sending you a million dollars.

BTW, do to the forjuries regarding Papal Infallibility and Primacy why should anyone just believe the vatican.

Remember what you once said, ""If one thing that you have said is wrong, then how can I trust the others?"
---john9346 on 4/26/16


\\If you believe that the men were inspired not the exact words. Then you believe in the infallible Bible but not the inerrant Bible. \\

I prefer to say "indefectable". The Word of God does not fail in what God intended it to do.

\\I am old enough to remember when the southern Baptist had this huge argument about it. It is still going on.\\

Oh, so am I. This is the SAME thing that Methodists and other main-line protestants went through 80 years before that.

It's a non-issue for the Orthodox.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/25/16


TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: Jesus was speaking directly to the "rock solid" TRUTH that Petros (the rock) spoke. Based upon that "TRUTH" Jesus built His church. It is true Peter was one of the more prominent apostles, but that did not mean Jesus was putting him in a very special position above the other apostles. To think so is an error & falsehood untold numbers of people have believed for centuries
---Leon on 4/25/16


That evidence Monk Bredan is from much latter.

Protestants look at the statement by Peter as the rock of truth that the church is built on. Look at other passages and compare them.

John 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mark 8:29
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Here no mention of Peter beyond he said these words which are the basis of our salvation.

What does the Bible say.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

On Christ the solid rock I stand. Old Hymn.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/25/16


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John 9346 said, "First, the church wasn't led by Peter and the apostles, it was led by all the apostles Peter not being greater than the other apostles"

Then why did Jesus pick him out and say, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18 KJV)

The evidence you ask for is in the Vatican, and other places around the world. I cannot lay hands on it right now.

However, if you want to give me a million dollars or so, and a year's time, I could have copies of all the evidence in my hands.

Of course, I can't even post my address on the CN blogs
---Monk_Brendan on 4/25/16


john9346, if you're talking about the list of books in the Bible, the word is spelled CA*N*ON without the doubled letter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/24/16


Brendan states, "But there is physical evidence that the Church that was led by Peter and the Apostles is the same Church that all of the pre-Reformation Churches share."

First, the church wasn't led by Peter and the apostles, it was led by all the apostles Peter not being greater than the other apostles.

With all sincere respect to you, I do question how much research you have done for example, you continue to state that Nicaea finalize the cannon.

Also, you do owe everyone on this blog some of the "Physical Evidence." you speak of.

Sir, I would have expected better from you as a monk then what I am seeing.
---john9346 on 4/24/16


samuelbb7 states, "If you believe that the men were inspired not the exact words. Then you believe in the infallible Bible but not the inerrant Bible."

Sir, the reason the bible is inerrant is because it is infallible.

The authors of Scripture were not "Theopneustos." only the Scriptures are "Theopneustos." not the authors. In fact, none of the authors ever stated that they themselves were "Theopneustos."

Your statement actually represents Brendan's Belief regarding the Scriptures

This is why Brendan stated, ""It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God,"
---john9346 on 4/24/16


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\\Nicaea had nothing to do with the cannon, only Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage made statements relating to the Scriptures.

Have you not read Trent's statement on this?\\

john, the word is spelled CANON, without the double N in the middle.

OK?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/24/16


John 9346 said, "The words, "Catholic." and "Orthodox." do not mean or represent the rcc, Melkites, and Eastern Orthodox Dogmas during this epic of time."

Forget about the Schism of 1054. It is an internal problem between Catholic and Orthodox that the Churches have been trying to seriously reconcile for the past 100 years.

But there is physical evidence that the Church that was led by Peter and the Apostles is the same Church that all of the pre-Reformation Churches share.

Believe me, John. I have done my research on this. I cannot post a link, or I would be able to show you this evidence.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/24/16


Vrendan states, "You know that the Early Church Fathers, in and around the First Ecumenical Council, made the final decisions about the Canon in (approx) 325 a.d."

Again sir, you are in serious error.

Nicaea had nothing to do with the cannon, only Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage made statements relating to the Scriptures.

Have you not read Trent's statement on this?
---john on 4/24/16


Thank you john9346

If you believe that the men were inspired not the exact words. Then you believe in the infallible Bible but not the inerrant Bible.

I am old enough to remember when the southern Baptist had this huge argument about it. It is still going on.

So I believe in thought inspiration not inerrancy.

I have had discussions with Atheists who demanded me to explain why there are mistakes in the Bible about numbers etc. They admitted my point showed their argument was not correct.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/24/16


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why the Apocrypha is not "Scripture.":

1. Neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted the apocrypha.

2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.

3. All Apocryphal Writings (NT) come much later then the First Century.

4. All Apocryphal Writings have False Authorship


5. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Cannonical Books Gen-Revelations.


6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements such as "God Said." "Thus Says The Lord." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." "It is written," or "the Scriptures say." these statements alone mean "Inspiration." "Divine Authority."
---john9346 on 4/24/16


samuelbb7 said, "I believe the second."

Sir, if the second is true then the Scriptures are not as Paul states, "Theopneustos."

If the second is true, then the Scriptures are not infallible, but fallible.

Mankind is not infallible.

I appreciate Brendan stating on a prior blog that the church fathers never taught or stated that they "Gave the world the bible." or "Gave the bible its authority."

If the church fathers believed and taught they "Gave the world the bible." or "Gave the bible its authority." then they themselves would have had to be infallible of which those men in their mindset would have been viewed a heretic and anathematize.
---john on 4/21/16


Brendan said, "
I'll tell you who it was. It was Catholic and Orthodox monks,"

Problems with this statement:

1. The Early Christians actually made it a practice to coppy the Scriptures long before monasticism.

2. The words, "Catholic." and "Orthodox." do not mean or represent the rcc, Melkites, and Eastern Orthodox Dogmas during this epic of time.

3. It wasn't until 1546 that the rcc at the council of Trent defined the cannon.

4. The systems of Eastern Orthodox and catholic weren't established until 1054 AD.
---john9346 on 4/21/16


\\1. All Apocryphal Writings come much later then the First Century.\\

Do they?

\\2. All Apocryphal Writings have forjuries (not written by the apostles as claimed)\\

Ae they?

The word, BTW, is spelled "forgeries".

\\3. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Cannonical Books Gen-Revelations.\\

Do they?

BTW, the Biblical book does NOT have an S at the end.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/21/16


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Okay, John, let's try this angle. Whenever the Bible was codified, it was 1500+ years until the Protestants picked it up and started making their own interpretations of what it meant. Who kept the Bible a living and active sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12 KJV)

I'll tell you who it was. It was Catholic and Orthodox monks, huddled away in monasteries all over the Old World, laboriously copying down the Bible, over and over again, stopping to prepare a new quill every time they came to the word "Jesus."
---Monk_Brendan on 4/21/16


Cluny and Brendan,

Gentleman with respect to you both, you both are stating an Egregious Error Historically in saying that Nicaea codified the NT Cannon.

So those who are seeking the truth on this blog can understand the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD was to address the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ (The Nicene Creed)

The 3 councils in the Fourth Century that made declarations on the NT cannon were Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage.

According to catholic sources/authorities it was Hippo and Carthage that finalized the NT Cannon.

The Council of Trent referenced Hippo and Carthage when addressing the bible in 1546.
---john9346 on 4/21/16


cluny asked, "Why are not such apostolic writings as the Letter to the Laodiceans, Epistle of Barnabas, or Apocalypse of Peter in the Bible?"

1. All Apocryphal Writings come much later then the First Century.

2. All Apocryphal Writings have forjuries (not written by the apostles as claimed)

3. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Cannonical Books Gen-Revelations.
---john9346 on 4/21/16


Please see the blog I started that got titled "Epistle of Barnabas."

It asks why some apostolic writings are in the Bible and others are not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/21/16


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Stop, John. I am not arguing that most, (if not all) of the Canon of Scripture was written before the 4th Century. I agree with you that it was all there before then.

What I am saying is that the Church--the same Church that Jesus founded when He said, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18 KJV)--is the Church that finally codified the Bible in the 4th Century (the 1st Ecumenical Council in 325 a.d.)
---Monk_Brendan on 4/20/16


\\Both of you are arguing that the Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397 provided the cannon (Fourth-century)\\

I never said this.

Please don't ask me to defend something I didn't say.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/20/16


Cluny and Brendan,

Gentlemen, You both need to be more specific.

Both of you are arguing that the Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397 provided the cannon (Fourth-century).

You are wrong as Previously Shown The Scriptures were known, quoted, and defended much earlier than these councils.

What is also very telling about the both of you is you wouldn't address men such as Ireneus and Turtullian who knew, quoted and defended the Scriptures centuries before the fourth century.

Also, The Muratorian Fragment much much earlier then the fourth Century.
---john9346 on 4/20/16


I challenge Cluny and Brendan to show us from the councils of Hippo and Carthage NT Books that had not been quoted, known, and defended by Early Christians??

Remember, Carthage's List is the exact NT Books listed by other Christians.
---john on 4/20/16


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Thanks Cluny and John.

The Irish Monks saved civilization and Monks during the Middle ages saved history.

Correct they are doing preservation not original writing. But as Christians and civilized people we owe them a debt of Gratitude we cannot repay.

The PreSchism Church recognized the Bible authority based on the Scripture from the Jewish writers. Don't forget all except a few books of the New Testament were written by Jews.

In my understanding GOD gave the Bible it's authority. Men just recognized it. Compiled and preserved it.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/19/16


John said, "Sir, You are in Serious Error, the Scriptures were known and quoted much much earlier then the Fourth Century:

Athanasius lists all 27 NT Books in 367 AD.

THAT IS THE FOURTH CENTURY!


However, I did not say the Bible was written in the 4th century. I said that the final Canon of the Bible was compiled, put together in one place, and was finally called "The Bible."
---Monk_Brendan on 4/19/16


\\...the Scriptures were known and quoted much much earlier then the Fourth Century:

Athanasius lists all 27 NT Books in 367 AD.

Cyril of Jerusalem lists all NT Books except revelations in the Catechetical Lectures.

Eusebius, lists all 27 of the NT Books.\\

All three of these flourished in the FOURTH century--the 300's--john.

And Athanasius gave his list over 30 years AFTER the Council of Nicaea, which codified the NT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/19/16


Brendan,

Sir, You are in Serious Error, the Scriptures were known and quoted much much earlier then the Fourth Century:

Athanasius lists all 27 NT Books in 367 AD.

Cyril of Jerusalem lists all NT Books except revelations in the Catechetical Lectures.

Eusebius, lists all 27 of the NT Books.

Turtullian mentions 24 of the NT Books.

Irenaeus quotes almost all of the NT Books

The Muratorian Fragment, mentions all NT Books dated about the Second Century.
---john on 4/19/16


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Brendan states, "John, then there must have been compilers, scribes, etc. who kept the Word alive. In the OT, this was done by the Jews. In the NT, this was done by monks."

Sir, what do you mean by, "Kept the word alive."

Seems you are confusing "Theopneustos." which is how the bible was given with "Preservation." which is how it was protected.

In the prologue to your Blog question, you are asking how the bible came to us and who gave it is authority this is "Theopneustos." not preservation.
---john9346 on 4/18/16


John 9346 said, "Neither I nor any Sola Scripturist has ever said or taught,"the Bible floated down out of heaven."

John, then there must have been compilers, scribes, etc. who kept the Word alive. In the OT, this was done by the Jews. In the NT, this was done by monks. In the 4th century, the Original Christian Church (for lack of better words) put together a final Canon of what God had spoken throughout the ages, and declared that these books, and none other are the Holy Scriptures.

And it was monks that kept it inviolate until such time as Gutenberg gave us the printing press.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/18/16


\\That GOD gave the men the Holy Spirit in an inspiring way and they used their own words.

I believe the second.\\

Likewise.

If God chose the exact words for all of the books in the Bible, the Greek of Revelation would be as elegant as the Greek of Luke, instead of the most ungrammatical book of the NT (as I've been told).

Or maybe the opposite.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/16


Agreed the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Two views on this. One that GOD gave then the words.

That GOD gave the men the Holy Spirit in an inspiring way and they used their own words.

I believe the second.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/18/16


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Ruben asked, "Because, then please explain to me why would your own interpretation be correct over mine, Kathr and others?"

Sir, am I to know what you are referencing?

Please be specific and give an example if you are going to say I said something.

Thank You,

John
---john9346 on 4/17/16


Hi Brendan,

My apology in delay of response to you. I don't blog on Saturdays.

read below:

Neither I nor any Sola Scripturist has ever said or taught,"the Bible floated down out of heaven.",furthermore, you are using a mischaracterization of a Belief ?System.

God selected40 men over a period of 1500 years to write his word.

This is what Peter is describing to the saints in 2 Pet 2:20-21.
---john9346 on 4/17/16


I asked John 9346, "But please answer a simple question for me: Did the Bible, at any time, float down from heaven to any person in a physical form?"

Note that he has yet to answer me. He has deflected, and tried to misdirect, but no straight answer.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/16


"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation," "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

2 Peter 1:20-21

Does this answer your question?
---john9346 on 4/15/16

John,

So you claim to be moved by the Holy Spirit as does so many here, how can it be so many who are led by the Holy Spirit can not agree on scripture verse?

Do you claim to be infallible when it comes to interpreting scripture?
---Ruben on 4/16/16


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Sure, Well lets see how Peter answers your question:

"But know this first of all, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

2 Peter 1:20-21

---john9346 on 4/15/16

John,

Isn't that what you are doing,

"that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation,

Because, then please explain to me why would your own interpretation be correct over mine, Kathr and others?
---Ruben on 4/16/16


\\Monk there were 3 or 4 big councils. council of nicea being the most famous. \\

The Orthodox Church recognizes 7 Ecumenical--that is, from the entire Empire--Councils.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/16/16


John 9346 said, "Sure, Well lets see how Peter answers your question:

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation," "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

2 Peter 1:20-21

Does this answer your question?"


No. The question was simple. Can you document any time where the Bible floated down out of heaven to any one person? (Strict rules of evidence, please)
---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/16


Great & accurate answer John9346. Faith indeed does come by hearing & hearing by the word of God as taught, from Scripture, by God the Holy Spirit. Not by neo-pharisaical & pompous religious leaders. The latter have caused massive historical, doctrinal confusion from religious folk who've created false doctines from their own private interpretations.
---Leon on 4/15/16


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Monk there were 3 or 4 big councils. council of nicea being the most famous. There was a list of qualifications to make it into the bible canon. Apostle writing, widely known, fairly original script, etc. The list of books was then voted on by the committe.
---Scott1 on 4/15/16


Brendan asked, "But please answer a simple question for me: Did the Bible, at any time, float down from heaven to any person in a physical form?"


Sure, Well lets see how Peter answers your question:

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation," "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

2 Peter 1:20-21

Does this answer your question?
---john9346 on 4/15/16


Micha9344 said, "-Israel did not give the OT its authority.-Neither did the RCC give the NT its authority."

I did not say that. God gave the Bible--New and Old Testaments--His authority. However, seeing as how Jesus Christ gave the authority to evangelize to the Apostles, and it was their successors in the 4th century that finalized the Canon of the Bible, and passed it on to the faithful (us), as such, it was the original Christian Church--begun by Jesus and handed to the Apostles, etc., that had the authority to say what was, and what was not part of the Bible.

That same Church (regrettably) became fractured into the various pre-Reformation Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, etc.) that exist now.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/16


John 9346 said, "Remember, he says that the Scriptures are, "Theopneustos." meaning God-breathed."

I have agreed with you that Scripture is "God breathed." But please answer a simple question for me: Did the Bible, at any time, float down from heaven to any person in a physical form?

If it did not, then it had to come from the hands of prophets, writers, scribes, compilers, etc.

If it did, and you can show me documented proof (and I mean a very strict documentation--passing the documentation along in a chain of evidence, just like what is supposed to happen in the best crime labs), then I will retract my claim that the Bible came from the Church that Jesus founded, and passed on.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/15/16


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\\Remember, he says that the Scriptures are, "Theopneustos." meaning God-breathed.
---john9346 on 4/14/16\\

And just how was it determined WHICH writings were God-breathed?

Who did God use to do so?

Why is not St. Paul's letter to the Laodiceans in the Bible--or even preserved?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/15/16


-Israel did not give the OT its authority.
-Neither did the RCC give the NT its authority.
1The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
-We, as messengers, do not give authority to the message. The authority is there in the seal.
-The councils never gave authority to scripture, they recognized the authority that was there. But not just them, The Holy Spirit working through them bearing witness to the Truth.
-I'm glad God uses the Church as a vessel to keep and proclaim His Word AD as He did for Israel BC.
---micha9344 on 4/15/16


Brendan said, "This time, let's talk about how the Bible came to us, and who gave it its authority."

Sir, in 2 Tim 3:16, Paule tells you who gave the bible its authority.

Remember, he says that the Scriptures are, "Theopneustos." meaning God-breathed.
---john9346 on 4/14/16


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