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Adam Eve Free Will

Adam and Eve were capable of sin. In the pre-fall nature of the world, how were the so overwhelmed by satan that they disobeyed God's Word.

Sounds like Free Will to me!

What do you think?

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 4/23/16
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Cluny,

I'd suggest reading Hus and Wycliffe's Writings on Calvinism/predestination and then we can dialog.


Kathr,

Ma'am, with respect to you, how much do you understand about Calvinism and church history??

I had to seriously ask because Calvinists do not hate Spurgeon "He is a hero." of the faith and Calvinists only recognize 1 predestination this is clearly stated in history...
---john9346 on 5/9/16


Cluny said, "For an Orthodox analysis of Calvinism, please look for the article TULIP IS PLUCKED."

Cluny, the correct title of that article is "Plucking the TULIP"
---Monk_Brendan on 5/9/16


Jerry sir,


See below:



"THAT the Bible teaches predestination, is true, that it teaches what modern theology defines the term to mean, we think is not true. As set forth in the Scriptures, it is a doctrine full of comfort and consolation, as taught in the creeds, it is full of spiritual paralysis and despair. In the Scriptures, it is the assurance of salvation so long as we maintain a certain relation to God, in theology, it is a relation determined for us independently of our own will, and a fixed destiny to a life which we cannot lose, or a death, which we cannot avert."

Ellen G. White

Synopsis of the Present Truth chapter 29

---john9346 on 5/9/16


john9346, to claim that Hus and Wycliffe were Calvinists is like that great church historian Jack Chick claiming that Origen was an Arian, even though Origen lived and died before Arius was even born!

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/9/16


Rev 13:8 . . . the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No one has sinned at the foundation of the world.

Yet, the slaying of the Lamb to spill the "cleansing Blood" was planned BEFORE sin occurred.

Calvin and Luther had nothing to do with God's preplanning.

Folks keep blaming the salesman when they are angry with the car designer.
---aservant on 5/9/16




Cluny:

You wrote:

"Hus and Wycliffe lived and died before Calvin."

Tell us, How much of their writings on predestination have you read?

"Luther hated Calvin and many times said he was not a Christian."

lol Tell us, have you ever read the book by Luther "The Bondage of the Will."??
---john9346 on 5/9/16


Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


To say, "THE BLESSED DOCTRINE OF CALVINISM" WOW.

The ONLY doctrine is the Doctrine of Christ. Anything else is counterfeit, and counterfeit here means anti-Christ. As in IN PLACE OF CHRIST.

Then we have the blessed doctrine of Joseph Smith. Is anyone a little weary about any doctrine being named after a HUMAN?

Did MarkV change his name....Mark Luke now John....will Matthew be next or has that one been played out here?
---kathr4453 on 5/9/16


john9346:

Please cite for everyone the the exact quote and source for your assertion that EGW taught predestination.



---Jerry6593 on 5/9/16


\\Cluny,

Please cite for us the statement of faith in regards to the denominations stance on rejecting predestination.\\

For an Orthodox analysis of Calvinism, please look for the article TULIP IS PLUCKED.

As for the rest, do your own research, Simply type **Predestination + Denomination** in your favorite search engine.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/16


Brendan you said, "I'm sorry for anyone that feels that they have been "elected," and then fall into real suffering (fatal disease, torture, imprisonment for Jesus sake, etc"

Sir, Not sure of your point since some of the most joyful and happiest individuals of history and today who fell in to real suffering (fatal disease, torture, imprisonment for Jesus sake, etc.) Have been men and women who affirm and followed the Blessed Doctrines of Calvinism/Election/Predestination/Augustinianism.

As I read your statement, I had to wonder are you sure you aren't meaning "Word of Faith."
---john9346 on 5/8/16




john1944 states, "It is interesting that most of the predestined in this world are whites of Western European extraction. There are very few non-white Calvinists."

Well sir, it seems obvious you have not read of the Origins of Calvinism.

Calvinism is in every race, culture, ethnicity, and nation of people.

I'd suggest reading a book called The Glory Road the story of African American coming to Calvinism.
---john9346 on 5/8/16


john9346, Hus and Wycliffe lived and died before Calvin.

Luther hated Calvin and many times said he was not a Christian.

J. S. Bach, the famous Lutheran musician, subtitled his Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach thus: "A treasury of Christ's teachings to be used as a charm against melancholy and Calvinism."

Where do you get these ideas?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/16


To all who insist on man having command and absolute dominion over his will, you need to think.

If an electric probe in your brain can cause you to move a muscle involuntarily, why do you have such a problem believing that God is more powerful than the electric pulse, and can move your mind and body involuntarily.

Scripture shows God to change behavior by adding or removing a spirit.
---aservant on 5/8/16


Ulrich Zwingli, Martin Luther, John Hus, John Wycliff, John Owen, John Knox, John Bunyan,, Matthew Henry, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, etc. were all Calvinists.
---john9346 on 5/8/16

John, are you sure it was the definition of predestination in scripture or predestination according to Calvinism....TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I know Spurgeon believed in whosoever will. So he may have had the REAL doctrine of predestination, not Calvinism. As a matter of fact, Calvinists hate Spurgeon.

These too are just names of so few. What makes you think they wrote church doctrine? And the only church doctrine is already established in scripture. The 12 apostles did not teach Calvin's doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/16


samuelbb7 ask, "So where does the Bible teach that Jesus only died for a few? Limited Atonement."

See Matt 1:21, Jn 6:37-45, Jn 10:26-30.



samuelbb7 states, "John I wrote that when this doctrine was presented in Protestant circles it was immediately opposed."

Sir, with respect to you, you are "Wrong." historically:

Ulrich Zwingli, Martin Luther, John Hus, John Wycliff, John Owen, John Knox, John Bunyan,, Matthew Henry, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, etc. were all Calvinists.
---john9346 on 5/8/16


Philip Morton of Merry Mount was convinced he was among the reprobate, and determined to have a hellaciously good time before he died.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/8/16


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Jerry,

Based on EGW's Statement on predestination how can you say sir she didn't believe in predestination?

Cluny,

Please cite for us the statement of faith in regards to the denominations stance on rejecting predestination.

Please cite for everyone the names of those statements of faith.
---john9346 on 5/8/16


Brendan: Isn't it curious how ALL predestination types consider themselves to be in the "elect" category rather than in the "lost" one? Random chance would suggest a lost one every now and then.


---Jerry6593 on 5/8/16


The problem is people have a wrong understanding of the definition and meaning of PREDESTINATION. No one is predestined to be saved. BUT those who are now saved, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. OT saints were saved, but were NOT predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, because that can only happen in this dispensation of GRACE. The dispensation of the FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST, where the RISEN Christ lives IN YOU and is conforming you to His image. AKA Sanctification through the Body of Christ. There was no BODY in the OT. Yet they were saved, looking ahead to the cross.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/16


The TULIP doctrine is so dyslexic it's not even funny. They believe one is born again first BEFORE they are justified. They take the scriptures of sanctification, that come AFTER one is justified and say they were predestined to salvation. They use the word elect as God picking and choosing who He wants to save, by MISAPPLYING Jacob and Esau. Jacob does not represent the elect to salvation, but the elect HEAD of the NATION OF ISRAEL who were also called THE ELECT. BUT NOT ELECT TO SALVATION EITHER. Today Jesus Christ is the ELECT ONLY, and all those today IN CHRIST who first come willingly by faith, first being JUSTIFIED by faith, are placed in HIS BODY , where Christ is the HEAD of the BODY, are called the Elect CHURCH.
---kathr453 on 5/8/16


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Thank you Jerry, Cluny and Monk Brendan. Good points.

John I wrote that when this doctrine was presented in Protestant circles it was immediately opposed. It has never been universally accepted. Even most Baptist only accept the Perseverance part and reject the others.

So where does the Bible teach that Jesus only died for a few? Limited Atonement.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/16


John 1944 said, "It is interesting that most of the predestined in this world are whites of Western European extraction. There are very few non-white Calvinists. God has a special love for Western Europeans, I suppose."

I agree with you. It seems that Western European white people, etc., do seem to be the Elect.

But how can you tell if you are Elect without mentioning feelings--or works?

I'm sorry for anyone that feels that they have been "elected," and then fall into real suffering (fatal disease, torture, imprisonment for Jesus sake, etc.) Most of the "elected" that I have known quickly fall into whining and complaining about the rotten way God is handling the problem.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/7/16


\\name for us a Christian Denomination that doesn't believe in predestination?\\

Eastern Orthodoxy.

The non-Chalcedonian Eastern Churches.

Lutherans

Anglicans

Methodists

Baptists (most of them)

Shall I go on?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/7/16


john9346: I could not disagree with your predestination assertions more. EGW and SDA's in general never taught the sick concept that God created most of mankind for the sole purpose of roasting them for eternity. We believe in God's foreknowledge and His future plan and desire for all men's salvation - but not for their unchosen salvation or punishment.

Free Will is the government of God. Forced constraint is the government of Satan.



---Jerry6593 on 5/7/16


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Samuelbb7 states, "This is not taught by all the churches. There are some parts that many churches do agree too."

Sir, name for us a Christian Denomination that doesn't believe in predestination?

What is your point is saying, "Arminius wrote against this doctrine when first presented."
---john9346 on 5/6/16


It is interesting that most of the predestined in this world are whites of Western European extraction. There are very few non-white Calvinists. God has a special love for Western Europeans, I suppose.
---john1944 on 5/6/16


Unless you have changed the meaning John I cannot agree with you.

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Persistence of the saints.

This is not taught by all the churches. There are some parts that many churches do agree too.

Arminius wrote against this doctrine when first presented. In fact Calvin would not totally agree with the way it is taught today.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/6/16


jerry6593 states, "Your predestination - no free will philosophy is false doctrine."

Well sir, things to note:

1. Both Jesus and his apostles believed and taught predestination and election.

2. The Doctrine of Predestination and Election has been believed for 2000 years of the church.

3. The doctrine of Libertarian Freewill of which you are espousing was condemned by the church council of Orange in the Fourth Century (a heresy).

4. Your founder Ellen G. White believed in predestination.

5. Every Christian Denomination believes in predestination the disagreement is with God's Election.
---john9346 on 5/6/16


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Monk, you now say,
"Luke it is you who are arguing foolishly."

who is arguing? not me. I was trying to teach a monk a few lessons on the Nature, character and attributes of God Almighty. But you as sure as there is dirt, rejected the nature of God for the free will of men. Doesn't that tell you how far a slave you are in sin? If you were not a slave to sin, you would have chosen God over man, because you would show you are a slave to Christ. Without God's help no one choses Christ.
---Luke on 5/6/16


luke: "All of the lost don't have a free will"

What a shame because:

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

So if you weren't lost, you can't be saved.

Your predestination - no free will philosophy is false doctrine.


---Jerry6593 on 5/6/16


Luke it is you who are arguing foolishly. For if there is no free will then your arguments are worthless and mean nothing.

I believe that humans choose our masters.

GOD gives us that right.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/5/16


Adam & Eve were spiritual infants in grown up bodies. God wasn't finished with their development after He initially created them. They had to go to school & begin on the road of God's plan of higher education. We know how school works. Sometimes we fail & at other times "do well" & make passing grades that can get us closer to a hopeful graduation date.

Today, look at the world of people around us. A great many are not living according to God's word (classroom instructions) & are failing miserably. I think there's nothing more disasterous to behold than underdeveloped, Pan-like children occupying grown up bodies & hellbent on living life their way, in opposition to God's plan.
---Leon on 5/5/16


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Monk, Stop to think for a minute and you will understand that nothing, not one iota is outside God's will. God knows all things. When He created Adam and Eve He knew they would sin.
All of the lost don't have a free will, the will they have, is to sin, that is why they are slaves to sin. All of the saved don't have a free will either, they are slaves to Christ.
God has to give the sinner eyes to sin, ears to hear, and a heart to perceive the things of God. Otherwise they remain slaves to sin. The Bible explains that very well.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" 1 Cor. 1:18.
---Luke on 5/5/16


There is no evidence to suggest that Adam and Eve could have made any choice other than the one they did make, as recorded in Genesis.
---john1944 on 5/4/16


Leon said, "John: While "ordained" (decreed) certainly is a good word, I believe, more specifically, God permitted ("LET") His free will created humans choose, however unwisely, to sin.:

Sir, in Isa 45:7 God is speaking of hisdecree not permitting someone to do something.

In Rom 9:9-23 God is decreeing not permitting.

In John 17:12 God is decreeing not permitting.

In Gen 50:20 God decreed not permitted.
---john9346 on 5/4/16


Monk, thanks for your reply, but I have ALWAYS believed in the free will/ choices of man. I've gotten in some humdingers here with Calvinists over the past 12 years.

Entering the Promise Land is a perfect example of free will/ choice. They were already PROMISED the Land. All they had to do was take it BY FAITH. It was right ther, right before their eyes. They SAW it. They were just too cowardly to OBEY GOD, called obedience of FAITH. SO THEY ENDED UP DYING IN THEIR SIN IN THE WILDERNESS, by their own choice.

Everyone today has been given the promise of salvation. But again cowards will not take possession of salvation. "Whosoever " will believe in Him.
---kathr4453 on 5/2/16


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Kathr said, "God has given sinners a choice. He has laid out the alternatives of that choice. "Choose this day" "Choose LIFE". " Choose death" "OBEY". "Repent" "Believe". These are all choices God has given man to do, or not do."

Thank you Kathr, you finally get the idea that Adam and Eve, and all their descendants have free will.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/2/16


Brendan states, "There are only two ways we can serve God, by loving Him, or by being robots."

Before God mankind is in 2 positions, dead or alive. There is no in between (Neutral State)...
"16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:16
---john9346 on 5/1/16


Some have said that it (free will) refers to the ability to desire. But a better definition is that it is the ability to decide between alternatives As long as the choosing comes from the individual rather than an outside force the decision is made freely.

Adam and Eve were given a choice. They were also tempted, not forced. They made the choice.

God has given sinners a choice. He has laid out the alternatives of that choice. "Choose this day" "Choose LIFE". " Choose death" "OBEY". "Repent" "Believe". These are all choices God has given man to do, or not do.
---kathr4453 on 4/30/16


\\Cluny, that is not even the correct translation. "Meet" should be translated as "fitting." As in a help fitting for you.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/30/16\\

Oh, I know that.

But you'd be surprised how many people think the non-word "helpmeet" is an archaic form of the solecism "helpmate".

We both know it's not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/16


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Cluny said, "It's like "help meet" is not a single word, either."

Cluny, that is not even the correct translation. "Meet" should be translated as "fitting." As in a help fitting for you.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/30/16


This argument has gone for a long time. Free Will verses robots with no will but that of GOD.

I agree with Monk Bredan and others that humans have free will. Why GOD loves all humans.

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Aservent you say no. But why argue when it is already done and decided? Is GOD forcing you to argue uselessly?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/30/16


The single word "freewill" is NOT the same as two separate words "free will".

Or did you catch that?

It's like "help meet" is not a single word, either.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/16


Freewill = 17 times in the KJV = each time is about offerings, not behavior.

Most offerings were stipulated, so offerings were not normally decided by the offerer. See "shall offer" in OT.

"freely" = without cost, spontaneously, frankly, etc. See Heb., Gr. dictionary. It is not about exercising prerogative.
---aservant on 4/29/16


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Lev 22:18 ...and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD...
Num 15:3 ...or in a freewill offering...to make a sweet savour unto the LORD...
Ezra 3:5 ...and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
Ezra 7:16 ...with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:
Psa 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD, for [it is] good.
Rev 22:17 ...And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Jos 24:15 ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...we will serve the LORD.
---micha9344 on 4/29/16


Because they had free will. If they were robots . . . we would be in Eden still. However, would God be able to freely love and expect love in return from a robot?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/16


God's construction is sure. People have the behavior God designed them to have. So in a sense, we are robots. We will function as God designs us to function. See Dt 30:6, Eze 36:27.

Rom 9:19 . . . who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 . . .Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
---aservant on 4/29/16


Monk Brendan
If you have free will, and love God, why do you sin? You sin because you are a slave of sin.

If you had free will, Jesus was wrong in (John 8:34). But we both know he was right, and the proof is in your own testimony. You are a man who loves God, and you want to serve Him, but you can't because you are a slave to sin.

Paul has a similar testimony in (Romans 7:14-25)
---David on 4/29/16


\\ Before they fell, Monk Brendan, I understand that Adam and Eve were God's perfect creatures, without sin. \\

That's not what the Bible says.

God called all His creation, including Adam and Eve, "very good." This is NOT the same thing as perfect.

From the Orthodox viewpoint, Adam and Eve were in a state of undeveloped innocence, and were supposed to grow into perfection.

Think of a baby. A healthy normal baby is "very good"--but it's supposed to grow. If the baby didn't grow, this would hardly be perfect, would it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/28/16


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Bill said, "They were created "very good". How can something good by nature, of itself, choose to do evil?"

Because they had free will. If they were robots, with any free will, we would be in Eden still. However, would God be able to freely love and expect love in return from a robot?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/16


Before they fell, Monk Brendan, I understand that Adam and Eve were God's perfect creatures, without sin. So, if they were without sin, how could they of their own nature choose to do what is evil?

They were created "very good". How can something good by nature, of itself, choose to do evil?
---Bill on 4/27/16


aservant said, "They are called COMMANDments, not FREEWILLments."

If we do not have free will, then does God need to COMMAND at all?

There are only two ways we can serve God, by loving Him, or by being robots.

I am not a robot! I serve God because He loves me, and because I love Him.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/16


I said, "Also, looking at all the versions of the Bible I have available, out of 53, only 13 use the word evil. Just a bit over 6%. Most use "calamity."

Forgive me, my math was all fouled up. The percentage is 24%
---Monk_Brendan on 4/27/16


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Brendan states, "John there is a big difference between evil and disaster."

Sir, can you explain your point??

disaster/ calamity is a result of evil.

calamity is the category of evil just like feeding the poor, clothing the naked is the result of good.

Thanks for stating the verse aservant...
---john9346 on 4/27/16


samuelbb7 ask, "My question is why are you here when it is all predetermined any way?"


Good question sir.

Here is the answer:


4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.


Eph 1:4-6
---john9346 on 4/27/16


///...Sir, God ordained it...---john9346 on 4/24/16///

John: While "ordained" (decreed) certainly is a good word, I believe, more specifically, God permitted ("LET") His free will created humans choose, however unwisely, to sin. God wasn't finished "creating" Adam & Eve. They were both naive (immature) & needed to grow up in a right, mature relationship to God. So, God "LET" them fall down so He could lovingly lift up & instruct, & let them (us) see where they (we) are & should be (G3:9). Once they (we) achieved that level of understanding & maturity they (we) would freely choose to be in a right relationship with our Creator. That's what I believe Sir! :)
---Leon on 4/27/16


Is 45:7 I . . . create darkness . . . and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amo 3:6 . . . shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


Sounds like God's Plan to me. If Adam does not fall, there is no need for a Savior.

If you can behave how you want, why does God punish disobedience?

They are called COMMANDments, not FREEWILLments.
---aservant on 4/27/16


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John 9346 quoted, "7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

John, that may be the King James Version, but the NIV says, "7I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I, the Lord, do all these things."

John there is a big difference between evil and disaster.

Also, looking at all the versions of the Bible I have available, out of 53, only 13 use the word evil. Just a bit over 6%. Most use "calamity."
---Monk_Brendan on 4/26/16


Apparently john you are a extreme Calvinist. My question is why are you here when it is all predetermined any way?

I believe that men can choose. That GOD foreknows but does not foreordain.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/26/16


Earl ask, "John ,
So the 1/3 rd of heaven's revolt was ordained too ?"

Yes sir.


6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


Isa 45:6-7
---john9346 on 4/26/16


Brendan ask, "Excuse me, John, but can you tell, just by looking at a person that he is reprobate?"

...Sir, Have you not read what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matt 7:15-23??
---john9346 on 4/26/16

Good one John.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
At some point it has to be self admitted if nothing else who fits the descriptions given. If one rends (break/sunder/disrupt/lacerate/...the "Red" letter words or "tramples (reject/disdain")
---Trav on 4/26/16


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...John, but can you tell, just by looking at a person that he is reprobate?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/25/16

Sure he can if they open their mouth/post, avoiding that written by the Prophets of Israel.

Isa_8:20 To the law and testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, Lord, who hath believed our report? to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
---Trav on 4/26/16


Brendan ask, "Okay, what about John 3:16?"

What about it sir what are you asking?

Brendan ask, "Excuse me, John, but can you tell, just by looking at a person that he is reprobate?"

Sir, Have you not read what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matt 7:15-23??

Tell me, has everyone obeyed Gal 3:26?
---john9346 on 4/26/16


Ruben,

Sir, Not sure of your point, but these individuals in Mt 2:19 and Lk 1:6 were elected remember they were "Jews/israel." See, Deut 7:6-8.

Ruben said, "But Jesus himself says " seek first the kingdom of God""

Tell us, who did he say this to??


Ruben, give us the context of Augustine's Quote you cite?
---john9346 on 4/26/16


\\1. Not everyone are the Children of God. see Gal 3:26.\\

What makes you think that you're a child of God, john9346?

\\The God that I worship is "God."\\

And what makes you think that you are indeed worshipping the real God?

As I have frequently said, how our free will fits in with God's eternal NOW is something we will not understand in this world and won't care about in the World to Come.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/25/16


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John 9346 *See Rom 3:10-18, 8:7-8.

Rom 3:10 -" There is no one who is righteous, not even one,

But in scripture we read where Joseph is called " Her husband Joseph , being righteous man..MT 2: 19

" Both of them were righteous before God " (LK 1:6)

Romans 3 :11 " There is on one who seeks God"

But Jesus himself says " seek first the kingdom of God "


John 9346* I'm reminded of the words of Augustine, You have made us for yourself,"

He also said , ' God has revealed to us through his holy scripture that there is free will in man'( Pl 44. 1. 1)
---Ruben on 4/25/16


John ,
So the 1/3 rd of heaven's revolt was ordained too ?
---Earl on 4/25/16


John 9346 said, "1. Not everyone are the Children of God. see Gal 3:26."

Okay, what about John 3:16?

"2. The reprobate/sinner doesn't love God or want to hear of his salvation. The reprobate/sinner hates God."

Excuse me, John, but can you tell, just by looking at a person that he is reprobate? Does the Holy Spirit switch on a little sign over another person's head saying "My Beloved Child"?

I have never seen such, and if you say you can, your deviating from the truth
---Monk_Brendan on 4/25/16


Brendan states, "In other words, God set up his children to fail, so that billions would die without hearing of His love, without even the remotest chance of salvation."

Brendan, keep the following in mind:

1. Not everyone are the Children of God. see Gal 3:26.

2. The reprobate/sinner doesn't love God or want to hear of his salvation. The reprobate/sinner hates God.

See Rom 3:10-18, 8:7-8.

The God that I worship is "God."

I'm reminded of the words of Augustine, You have made us for yourself,"
---john9346 on 4/25/16


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Earl ask, "Would you say that,ordained to this condemnation",at Jude 4 is the same about the sons of God in Gen 6.4?"

Yes and a good question.
---john on 4/25/16


John 9346 said, "Sir, God ordained it to be so."

In other words, God set up his children to fail, so that billions would die without hearing of His love, without even the remotest chance of salvation. Forgive me, but this is a cruel god you worship.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/25/16


john 9346 wrote
,"ordained them to do so ".
Would you say that,ordained to this condemnation",at Jude 4 is the same about the sons of God in Gen 6.4 ?
---Earl on 4/25/16


Brendan asked, "Adam and Eve were capable of sin. In the pre-fall nature of the world, how were the so overwhelmed by satan that they disobeyed God's Word."

Sir, God ordained it to be so.
---john9346 on 4/24/16


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Earl, there is no such word as "predestiny."

The term is "predestination."

How our free will fits in with God's eternal NOW is a mystery we will never understand in this world, and won't care about in the World to Come.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/24/16


If a person is deceived does that count as a sin?
Was one deceived and the other knew better?
The serpent is called satan and satan is known as a son of God so this son of God deceived Eve the partner of a son of God -Adam
And satan was a participant in the rebellion.
Rebellions start with deceivers don't they ?
Christianity is based on predestiny as Paul teaches.If what he says is in truth then no.
If one don't agree with Paul then you are not a learned christian.
Is that how it goes?
---Earl on 4/23/16


I agree, Monk Brendan.
---Press_On on 4/23/16


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