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Is Saving Faith A Work

A question for those who say we are saved by faith alone apart from works:

Is not the act of saving faith itself a work?

YOU are the one who has to do the believing and act upon it.

If it were merely faith, Satan would be saved.

Talk among yourselves.

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 ---Cluny on 4/30/16
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There is an old saying. Love does or works because love cannot help but be loving.

This is backed up by the Bible.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/21/16


..Christ needs your help to save you. Did I read that correctly?--trey

No, but thanks for asking. God needs my yes, to save me. Free Will.

Remember Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 25:31-46..take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,WORK
I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, WORK
I was a stranger and you invited me in, WORK
I needed clothes and you clothed me, WORK
I was sick and you looked after me, A LOT OF WORK
I was in prison and you came to visit me. WORK

Following Jesus is Work, but with Jesus' Graces to be able to perform these works.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/19/16


Nicole L, it sounds like you just said Christ needs your help to save you. Did I read that correctly?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (KJV)
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

Paul says it's not of works and that we have no grounds for boasting.
---trey on 6/19/16


//michael e, did St. Paul say, "The preaching of the Resurrection is foolishness to those who are perishing"?//
My young friend read 1 Cor. 1:18 then study the cross work of Christ.
Jesus taught Paul the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection for the Gentiles, and for the first time we could understand the meaning behind why the death and resurrection was necessary for all men (Gal 1:11-12).
Without his death we could not reckon our old man dead and be delivered from the law for righteousness (Rom 3:21-22, 6:11). His blood paid for the sins of all, and his resurrection established our justification and new life in Christ (Rom 4:24-25).
---michael_e on 6/16/16


michael e, did St. Paul say, "The preaching of the Resurrection is foolishness to those who are perishing"?

Please refresh my memory.

Glory to Jesus Christ1
---Cluny on 6/16/16




Great point Cluny.

If someone lends me a hand to help me get out of a hole, the person excepts me use my legs and arms to get out of the hole.

He still can say he saved me.

But, I still worked at getting saved by him.
I can't say I saved myself.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/16/16


Samuel BB said, "
Dear Monk Brendan

I apparently have failed along the line somewhere.

Jesus Christ is the center of truth. All must be centered in him. He is the standard and center of all truth.

It's through his words to us that we find Jesus Christ.

God is who we worship and we know him by knowing Jesus."


I don't know what brought that on, Samuel. I am only a wretched sinner plunged in the puddle of my sins. If I have offended in any way, please forgive me.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/14/16


//Does that mean St. Paul thought He was still on the Cross?//
Of course not, the first thing in Pauls gospel is the last thing in the four gospels: the death and resurrection of Christ.
1 Cor 15:3 Says Christ was buried and ROSE AGAIN, he didn't stay on the cross or in the grave.
The resurrection of Christ is the foundation of Christianity.
Without Christs resurrection, there would be no Paul, only Saul.
This makes Paul the apostle of the resurrected Christ.
The resurrection of Christ is central to Pauls gospel and message. It is not an afterthought. (1 Cor 15:13-14)
---michael_e on 6/14/16


**//Who says He is? Not I. Not Monk Brendan//
you say there are no crucifixes in catholic churches, my young friend?**

I never said that.

But St. Paul said, "We preach Christ CRUCIFIED".

Does that mean St. Paul thought He was still on the Cross?

The Crucifix does with to the visual sense what the preaching of Christ Crucified does with words.

If you have an artistic representation of the Holy Nativity--painting, icon, or manger scene--does that mean you leave Jesus as a baby in a manger?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/16


//Who says He is? Not I. Not Monk Brendan//
you say there are no crucifixes in catholic churches, my young friend?
---michael_e on 6/13/16




\\He or you will not understand right division until you realize Christ is not still on a Cross.
\\

Who says He is? Not I. Not Monk Brendan.

Did you not see my signature line during Orthodox Paschaltide?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/12/16


My young friend, you say
//Wrong. He does and you don't.//
He or you will not understand right division until you realize Christ is not still on a Cross.
Monk says he was taught right division by a couple linguists. He might want to study for himself. The apostle Paul teaches right division very well.
2 Tim 2:15 is a good place to start.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
---michael_e on 6/12/16


\\My young friend, that was a punctuation mistake,\\

Thank you for explaining that.

\\ the "Me" is for myself. I already know the monk knows nothing of right division.\\

Wrong. He does and you don't.

Speaking of "rightly dividing the word," did you know that in many of the oldest Biblical mss, there are frequently contractions, no punctuation, and not even breaks between words?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/11/16


//michaele, why did you insert that bogus "Me" into your cut and paste from Monk Brendan?//
My young friend, that was a punctuation mistake, the "Me" is for myself. I already know the monk knows nothing of right division. Hope this answers your question.
---michael_e on 6/6/16


\\Monk said, "Michael, who is rightly dividing God's Word?
Me"\\

michaele, why did you insert that bogus "Me" into your cut and paste from Monk Brendan?

He did NOT say "Me" in his original posting.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/6/16


Dear Monk Brendan

I apparently have failed along the line somewhere.

Jesus Christ is the center of truth. All must be centered in him. He is the standard and center of all truth.

It's through his words to us that we find Jesus Christ.


God is who we worship and we know him by knowing Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/4/16


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only thing you need salvation is to believe Christ Paul said to have faith in him. All must understand that he a sinner Romans 3:23. And he needs a savior. And there one savior who paid price for man's Redemption the Lord Jesus Christ. For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast Ephesians 2 8 through 9 so the church cannot save you nor water baptism only by trusting Jesus Christ and it does not matter where you are at you are saved when you confess and believe in your heart at that moment. When Jailer ask Paul what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:27 34 the evidence shows that he had that moment in jail believe on the Lord Jesus Christ was instantly saved
---Lee on 5/31/16


Monk said, "Michael, who is rightly dividing God's Word?
Me"
Monk said "You think the Calvinists are wrong,"
When did I ever mention Calvin?
Monk said "In order to find who rightly divides God's word, You have to go back to the original Hebrew and Greek",
Or you can study the writings of the apostle Paul
A couple hail Marys and a head stand for you Monk.
---michael_e on 5/30/16


Michael E. said, "Trust and listen to Gods words rightly divided, telling you the truth of the gospel."

Michael, who is rightly dividing God's Word?

You think the Calvinists are wrong, Samuel thinks that only EGW can do that, and so on.

In order to find who rightly divides God's word, You have to go back to the original Hebrew and Greek, and understand every word, in all its implications and nuances. I don't speak Hebrew or Greek, but I know some that do, and they have shown me that I have to belong to an Eastern Christian Church in communion with (but not under) Rome.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/28/16


Samuel, you are absolutely right there....we are.

Which brings 2 Peter 1 to a deeper focus. If by faith we are partakers of His divine Nature, we should and would know that. THEN says add these things and you will never fall. I don't believe that means fall from salvation, but just in our daily walk.

Are those things Peter says to ADD to our faith mandatory? No, but it does show we are given direction after we are saved so we won't be ashamed at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus isn't going to ask if we read the bible, He'll ask if we DID those things we were asked to do. That is where LOVE is perfected.
---kathr4453 on 5/13/16


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Amen Kathyr. Many great points.

I am on my phone so I can't put in the verse. But the Bible says we're to be introspective. We are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/12/16


JamesL, To those who are saved, God has before ordained the works that we should walk in, that is, He predestined us to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ that comes through our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life....not through choice. The fruit of the spirit is LOVE JOY PEACE ETC.
AND THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST'S HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH. Galatians 5:24......those who are NOT, have not. Galatians 3....Having BEGUN in the spirit .......read on JamesL. The problem is, YOU don't understand salvation, or Galatians. Why exactly do you think every believer from the beginning is given the Holy Spirit? Romans 8:11-13....



And we don't suffer our will to God's....we surrender our will to God.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/16


JamesL, I also don't WONDER if I'm saved or worry that I will stay saved. And guess what I'm no Calvinist. They are not the ONLY ones who believe in eternal security. Just another ignorant statement made by so many. Yet our doctrine is not in the TULIP, but in the CROSS. The two doctrines are as far as the east is from the west.

After reading some of your comments, I know you don't understand the CROSS, or the FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST, since you call it ranting.

Jesus will present TO HIMSELF a Church without spot or wrinkle. The Everlasting Covenant between God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has ensured that.
---kathr453 on 5/12/16


As soon as you adopt the notion that "saved folks have saved ways" you MUST open yourself to introspection.///

Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. I am not a fruit inspector, nor do I introspect my own fruit. But the fact is JamesL what gave Paul the right to inspect the Galatians? He said he had to labor again until Christ was formed in them, having first BEGUN in the spirit, HAVE YE SUFFERED SO MUCH IN VAIN????? they went back under the law. So YES, there is a vast difference between spirit walking and flesh walking. The FLESH cannot produce the fruit of the SPIRIT.

******Galatians 2:20-21*******
---kathr4454 on 5/12/16


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"It must be an awful thing to wonder If you are one of the elect.....
I can't understand what a Calvinists faith is in if they have to WONDER if they are the elect.....
hoping their works is proof? But again back to works....if some get burned up, how can anyone be sure their works are acceptable to God?"
---kathr4453

That's the whole point I've been making.

As soon as you adopt the notion that "saved folks have saved ways" you MUST open yourself to introspection.

What you've espoused is exactly what you're now speaking against

And if your doctrine doesn't make you doubt your salvation, then you don't really believe it
---James_L on 5/11/16


It must be an awful thing to wonder If you are one of the elect, or wonder in the end if you lost your salvation along the way of life. I am so glad that under the New Covenant Jesus is the SURITY of the Covenant, meaning HE takes 100% responsibility for our failures as well as our successes. I can't understand what a Calvinists faith is in if they have to WONDER if they are the elect. Is their faith in hoping their name gets picked? Or hoping their works is proof? But again back to works....if some get burned up, how can anyone be sure their works are acceptable to God?

Hari Chrisna's (sp) love, and I see so many Hindu also are very loving....so that is no evidence either.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/16


\\Calvinism teaches they were never saved. Just fooled themselves.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/11/16
\\

Sounds like a good way to be eternally INsecure.

Many NE Puritan writers wondered if they were truly among the elect.

**Child is "teknon" in Greek
Son is "huios"**

Try again.

TEKNON is generic.

YIOS is gender specific.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/11/16


Samuel, you don't believe you can lose your salvation because you don't have ENOUGH works , correct? Or no works?...which is something only God can see many times. Or that your works stopped? Which again only God knows if that is true. So you might be saying, IF someone came along and raped and murdered your child, and anger and bitterness got ahold of you...THEN is when you lose your salvation? So you put a time limit on dying to self? Or is it like Peter when he denied Christ after being a disciple? Again, no evidence he lost his salvation and got resaved Hebrews 6 clearly say you cannot get resaved. But being enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not salvation either. Can you show us a NEW TESTAMENT person who lost their salvation?
---kathr4453 on 5/11/16


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Unlike Calvinism we believe a believer can lose their salvation.

Calvinism teaches they were never saved. Just fooled themselves.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/11/16


What I have stated, and clarified, is this - pretending that good works inevitably result from faith in Christ is a Calvinist notion./////

That's not a Calvinist notion. Christ in you is WHO is doing the GOOD WORKS, they He has before ordained that we should walk in.

The New Covenant and Everlasting Covenant is not based on the word IF you will, THEN I will. That is the Old Covenant. The NEW/Everlasting Covenant is based solely on I WILL. If perhaps you read Hebrews 13:20-21 you would see this is scriptural, not Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/16


Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Notice it DOESN'T SAY, then ye are children and not sons. It's chastening that bring us to maturity of which ALL are partakers. IF a son is already mature, why would he need chastening. Jesus "learned obedience" through the things He suffered, yet was already a son. And He is our example of that suffering.
---kathr453 on 5/11/16


The "power" is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:14 says explicitly that those who are led by the Holy Spirit are the sons of God.

Child is "teknon" in Greek
Son is "huios"

Son denotes maturity

We are all children through faith, we become sons through suffering our will to His

Not every child will grow to maturity
---James_L on 4/7/16

JamesL, this is where you are wrong. Every child is given the Holy Spirit making him a son. We don't BECOME sons through maturity. We become young men and fathers.

You are teaching to become a son you have to earn your salvation re: WORKS.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/16


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"JamesL, There is problem with your statement that works are from Calvinism...."
---Samuelbb7 on 5/10/16


If only I had made a statement like that.

What I have stated, and clarified, is this - pretending that good works inevitably result from faith in Christ is a Calvinist notion.

Every command in scripture is given with the acknowledgement that the commands just might not be obeyed.

How many times do we see:
If you....
But if you don't....

And if you think good works are inevitable for a believer, just how is there room for a believer to be damned for not obeying?

That's entirely inconsistent.
---James_L on 5/11/16


JamesL, the first and only insults here are from you. Being ignorant of a subject is not an insult. Accusing me of being a Calvinist when I loath the doctrine and have made that known here for over 12 years is an insult. Trying to explain to you what scripture teaches that Calvinists do not believe, and then WALLA, you insult me again.

Then you ask the same question again, when you have been given the answer YOU SAID YOU CALLED RANTING AND RAVING...again another insult.

THen you accused me of the Calvinist "P". I explained that was not scriptural, yet AGAIN you insult me.

Work out your own salvation JamesL.
---kathr4454 on 5/10/16


JamesL, There is problem with your statement that works are from Calvinism.

Calvinism has two schools those who like Chuck Swindal teach works follow. And his opponents who accuse him of not teaching true Calvinism since works don't matter and aren't important.

Methodist, Lutheran and Seventh day Adventist teach that works are important. That if they don't happen you aren't saved.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

See verses 17,20 also.

Now there have been presented many verses that says we will do good works because we love GOD and love others. If you love a person why would you not work to help them?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/10/16


Kathr,
I really don't think you've understood my objection at all.

You keep tossing personal insults as if they're useful. Well, if your doctrine is true, then maybe that's the fruit you want to be judged by?

I haven't objected to works, I've objected to the Calvinist notion that good works are inevitable.

You seem to think that a man can hope in Christ, but that a lack of works disqualifies his faith.

If so, then how does his faith become genuine? With a different set of facts? By learning about works?

Or maybe the more he insults people the closer his faith gets to being "real" ??
---James_L on 5/9/16


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We agree on quite a bit, but your Calvinist "P" simply doesn't stand up to scripture.
---James_L on 5/8/16

JamesL your ranting that I'm Calvinist is off base, and your ranting that perseverance or endurance through testing and trials doesn't stand up,to scripture is because you are totally ignorant on the subject. You also show your ignorance by stating you have no clue what I posted.

If perhaps you read again the verse in Jude, you will see the word SANCTIFY within the sentence.

I'm sorry for you on that note, because if perhaps you had gone through any trials and testing you would know the purpose and end result. Because you don't you can't identify with the truth in the subject matter.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/16


Samuel I agree. We have so many false teachers like WOF who teach suffering and trials are because God is punishing you. And they will teach anything to avoid the CROSS which is our identification with Jesus Christ in the fellowship of His sufferings. Every apostle who wrote on the subject, Paul, Peter, John, wrote to encourage the saints because this IS what Happens to us and how we come through it victorious. It takes OBEDIENCE of faith where we learn to walk in the WORKS Christ has before ordained that we are to walk in. The reason so many become BITTER is because of ignorance or false teachers. And then you have JamesL who thinks it is a Calvinist teaching , I guess because he sees the word perseverance and rejects it altogether.
---kathr453 on 5/9/16


perseverance
noun
steadfastness in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success.


The word perseverance is only used once in scripture, and says nothing about OSAS. All the TULIP are words not in scripture, but words made up and given their own definition based on their doctrine, not the Doctrine of Christ.

Of coarse we are to remain steadfast.

Jude does not say perseverance, but PRESERVED, an altogether different word. The whole of the TULIP is based on the T..total depravity. Again no such word is used in scripture. It is only a THEORY, based on a false doctrine.

Now the truth is, if your faith was never genuine to begin with, you won't remain steadfast in the faith.
---kathr4454 on 5/9/16


If good works are inevitable for a believer, why do you preach to believers that they should do them? Seems awful silly, no? James_L

No. Because people are taught false doctrine and have to be taught true doctrine. The reasons Paul wrote his letters was to teach the Christians about what being a Christian is.

Chuck Swindall got into trouble and stayed in it for teaching Lordship Salvation. The teaching that Jesus has to be your Lord and in charge of your life in order for you to be saved. John Wesley was attacked for teaching the Ten Commandments were basic standards of Christian behavior. He along with many in his day kept Sabbath on the first day of the week.

Truth needs to be taught and defended.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/9/16


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Kathr,
I hope you don't feel offended, but I really don't have the stamina anymore to trudge through your arduous posts.

We agree on quite a bit, but your Calvinist "P" simply doesn't stand up to scripture.

If it did, you'd simply quote 2 or 3 scriptures that plainly teach it, rather than 4 paragraphs of incessant ranting.
---James_L on 5/8/16


James5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

JamesL, we see James sums up his whole epistle with this promise. James is awesome on the subject of the testing of our faith. I love chapter 1. And WHY we are tested. And the end of James says its for the purpose of establishing strengthening and settling us. God KNEW Job would endure. And look at Job's words in the end of his ordeal.

MarkV, the Calvinist, did not believe in the testing of our faith. He said, God gave us faith as a gift...it doesn't need to be tested. The most ignorant statement that ever came out of someone's mouth.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/16


"The Bible does teach that Faith works and works until the end....

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5..."
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/16

I never said anything to the contrary.

What I've disputed is the false notion that good works, endurance, etc are INEVITABLE.

Scripture calls believers to walk, follow, deny self, endure, and all manner of imperatives.

If good works are inevitable for a believer, why do you preach to believers that they should do them? Seems awful silly, no?
---James_L on 5/8/16


Well Kathyr. Very good points. We usually refer to it this way. Justification is the work of a moment. Sanctification the work of a lifetime. And Glorification is the instant work when we are changed at the coming of Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/16


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Samuel, absolutely correct. 2nd Corinthians 3 is another place....we are being CHANGED FROM GLORY TO GLORY BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD. OT saints, we not being CHANGED FROM GLORY TO GLORY BY the Spirit of the Lord. That happened by way of the New Testament not old, clearly shown in 2 Cor 3. We will continue to be changed until the Lord comes or until we die. Being changed from Glory to Glory is being conformed to His image. This is what NT salvation consists of. God never stops working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Also read Hebrews 13:20-21 which by the way comes VIA His resurrection life in you.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/16


JamesL, Justification is the first step, that is our salvation, NEXT IS OUR SANCTIFICATION. Now you are saying sanctification is a choice we make after we are justified? Well, our sanctification, that is, being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ is not a choice. IT HAPPENS immediately after our Justification You see JamesL, CALVINISTS don't believe in Justification, and now you don't believe in sanctification? How then can you be IN CHRIST ...after you are Justified FIRST, and not be sanctified?
Very very interesting.

That may have been true for OT saints , since the RISEN Christ was not in them at that time, but not in the Dispensation of Grace. Sanctification is GODS WORK IN YOU, as we are His workmanship.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/16


JamesL, there are all sorts of FAITH things out there. But not all faith is the faith scripture requires. Those of works have faith in themselves. Scriptural faith is faith in the FINISHED WORKS Of JESUS CHRIST.

It sounds like your faith is only in half the works of Jesus Christ. The finished works include His Resurrection life in us, that OT saints, although they were saved by faith, looking ahead to the cross , did not experience or have access to.

We're not REWARDED for being sanctified JamesL. And the perseverance of the saints , AKA, OSAS are to those who are FIRST JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. Justification is NOT the New Birth. But the New Birth cannot happen unless you are first Justified.....which Calvinists do not believe.
---kathr453 on 5/8/16


JamesL. Since justification is not the new birth, but God imputing, NOT IMPARTING, the righteousness of Christ to you, we see OT saints also were imputed righteousness. But they weren't sanctified through the Body of Christ, Hebrews 10, or made perfect, Hebrews 10. They weren't at that time COMPLETE IN HIM. Why? Because completion did not come UNTIL Jesus rose from the dead. SO, TODAY, saving faith is based on the FINISHED works of Christ.....we see detailed more fully in Romans 6-8. PHilippians 3, Colossians 2-3 just to mention a few, that is talking about our SANCTIFICATION. The EVIDENCE of Christ in you, AND YOU IN Him, that produces FRUIT which is the very life of Christ in you.
---kathr4454 on 5/8/16


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Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness

The Law cannot set you free from sin, as Paul shows in Romans 7.

BUT the FINISHED WORKS OF CHIST DOES. In the OT sins were only covered, meaning incomplete.

So if your faith is not in the FINISHED works of Christ, where we are actually set FREE from sin, because we died with Christ and are raised a New Creature IN CHRIST making that possible, where we now walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Romans 8, where our "fruit" is unto righteousness, and not dead works, then your not even saved in the first place JamesL.
GOD DIDN'T STOP at justification. This is not Calvinism. This is scriptural.
---kath4453 on 5/8/16


The Bible does teach that Faith works and works until the end. See Matthew 25.

1John 3:2-4
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Read Romans 6.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5

Please read this last verse.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/16


Kathr,
that is a Calvinist teaching, it's the "P" in TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints

It's a works doctrine that tries to classify faith into categories like genuine, real, spurious, false, etc.

Faith is not "real" faith unless it has works...to the end. Not only is that NOT taught in scripture, it undermines the security of the believer because the end supposedly validates the beginning.

But here you are in the middle, like Peter. "I won't deny you, Lord." But Satan might have asked to sift you.

You were called to follow. You have a part that's not automatic.
---James_L on 5/7/16


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

James L I'm no Calvinist, and this is not a Calvinist teaching.

Galatians 5... The fruit of the spirit is.....against such there is no law...and those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh. Now go back and Read Romans 7:1-11. Those still under the works of the LAW cannot bring forth fruit.

In the parable of the 4 soils, only the LAST was planted on GOOD GROUND. Now the Calvinist would believe THEY are the Good ground. The ONLY good ground is Christ Himself. Salvation is only the beginning.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/16


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The word "FAITH" is actually a CONCEPT (like many of the words we were taught to use wrongly).

Jesus did not tell the woman to let HIS BLOOD save her, Jesus was telling her that her LIFESTYLE attitude/faith of peace, caring, etc. had saved her ALREADY (she had a Godly spirit/character).

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you, go in peace."
---faithforfaith on 5/7/16


"If we look at the parable of the 4 soils, we see only the last are truly saved"
---kathr4453

That's an unfounded presumption.

The text never states that only the last are anything other than fruitful.

And "truly saved" is a redundant misnomer. Either you're saved or you're not. There's no "almost" saved or "false" believer or "true" believer.

Good works are not inevitable for a believer, and you cannot hold that Calvinist tenet without first rejecting scripture
---James_L on 5/7/16


If we look at the parable of the 4 soils, we see only the last are truly saved. They ALL produce fruit / AKA WORKS to varying degrees. SOME 30, some 70 and some 100......but nothing about ZERO. The three previous soils, show FALSE PROFESSIONS, and not a one produces any fruit. The GOOD GROUND is Christ Himself. So those IN CHRIST will produce fruit, not in and of themselves, but the fruit of the Spirit that ONLY a saved person can produce. It parallels exactly John 15.
OSAS.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/16


Here is a no brainer.

Matthew 7:20-23

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---kathr453 on 5/7/16


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Samuel,
If you believe true Christians cannot help it, that there's an inevitability of good works, do you then subscribe to the eternal security of the saints? That a true Christian cannot fail in finality and cannot be lost?
---James_L on 5/6/16


False Christians do counterfeit works that is true. But they also keep most of the money for themselves and their luxuries. They also boast about their spending so to be seen of others.

Matthew 6:3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

A true Christians cannot help but help others. They love others and so care for them. They also don't care if anyone knows or not. But if a person does no works and hurts others. They show they don't love and are servants of Satan. No matter what their words are.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/5/16


"Conviction and reliance can't be seen or touched like a Bible.....

Faith is NOT a work."
---aservant on 5/3/16

100% right

Faith is not a spiritual water gun, which God puts in our hand, then we aim and shoot.

Faith is conviction by the Holy Spirit and enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.
---James_L on 5/5/16


Samuel, seeing those works you posted don't prove one is saved or preaching the TRUE GOSPEL. TBN Trinity Broadcast Network comes to mind. Satan has the power to counterfeit such things.
---kathr4453 on 5/5/16


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The Law of FAITH is believing, and believing RESULTS in evidence. Evidence of Christ in you doing HIS works in you as you SURRENDER, YIELD, to let Him do HIS WORK IN YOU.
kathr4453

Correct Love works. Christian feed the poor. help the sick. Preach the Gospel. Walk in love towards others. If they don't they are not Christians. Matthew 25.

Titus 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,
---Samuelbb7 on 5/4/16


Eternal salvation is only obtained by faith. It is a gift of God and not of works - Eph 2:8.

What most do not understand is that there is more than one salvation taught in the scriptures.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (KJV)
Time Salvation.

Phil 2:12 speaks of working out your own salvation. Again if you keep everything in context Paul is speaking of a timely salvation not an eternal salvation.
---trey on 5/3/16


The WORKS are the finished WORKS OF CHRIST. We are His workmanship. So the works of faith are not WORKS. So the question is....what exactly are works OF FAITH as OPPOSED to the works of the Law, scripture clearly says no one can be saved by, or man made works, aka traditions your denomination has made up.

We are saved by Grace through faith...NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. The Law of FAITH is believing, and believing RESULTS in evidence. Evidence of Christ in you doing HIS works in you as you SURRENDER, YIELD, to let Him do HIS WORK IN YOU.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/16


The works in love that Christians do has no saving value. They are the result of our love for GOD. Jesus pointed this out.

Luke 17:9,10
Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Love results in actions. Because we love. Those who don't have actions don't have the love.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/3/16


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josef said, "And as it is written, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,"

How much suffering have you done for Christ? Have you ever been accused of terrorism? I have, and on these blogs!

You have no idea of the time I have spent in prayer, usually face down on the floor speaking to the Lord, asking Him to have mercy on someone who has attacked me, or slandered me.

If you are supposed to be light and salt, act like it!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/3/16


Monk, as Peter said "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him,.." NIV
" Yes, the faith which comes through Him.." NKJV
"the faith that is through Jesus" ESV
"So the faith that comes through Him.." HCSB>NASB>NET>RSV etc. Act 3:16

And as it is written, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake," NKJV,NIV,ESV,NASB,NET etc. "For to you it is given.." WEB,DBY,HCSB,NLT,KJV Refs. 1 John 5:1>Phil 1:29
---josef on 5/2/16


Eph 2:5 . . . by grace ye are saved

2:8 For by (grace = beneficial favor - G5485)
are ye (saved = preserved and made whole - G4982)

through (faith = convicted reliance upon Christ/God - G4102)
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The condemned's only escape from execution is the Judge granting him favor.

The sinner's only escape from Hell is God granting him favor.

Does faith or the Judge release the condemned? Jn 6:44


Conviction and reliance can't be seen or touched like a Bible.

Faith does not turn the key of release. The Judge does.

Faith is NOT a work.
---aservant on 5/3/16


Josef said, " No. Faith is a gift received through Father's gift of His Spirit."

Sorry, Joseph, Rom 10:17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Nothing in there about the gift of the Holy Spirit!

You also said, "No, believing is the Father's work in us, for it is He that works in us both to will and to do His pleasure."

Again, no. Believing is for us to do, not God. You're obviously thinking of the passage in Philippians 2:13, but verse 12 says Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/2/16


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Samuel, ANYTHING involving the word "do" is by definition a work.

josef, as someone else pointed out, the Father doesn't believe. He KNOWS.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/2/16


When we do an act out of love that is not a work. It is the result of our being loving like our father.

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Read all of Luke 17.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/16


Faith is opposite of doubt. How do we know whether to doubt or believe?
Trust and listen to Gods words rightly divided, telling you the truth of the gospel.
Rom 10:17 ... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 2:9 not by works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is someone doing for you. Working is you doing for yourself. The opposite of working for something is being given something.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Is grace the gift of God in Eph 2:8? This seems more likely, since grace is described in the same epistle as being given from God (Eph 3:7, Eph 4:7).
---michael_e on 5/1/16


"Is not the act of saving faith itself a work?" No. Faith is a gift received through Father's gift of His Spirit.
"YOU are the one who has to do the believing and act upon it."
No, believing is the Father's work in us , for it is He that works in us both to will and to do His pleasure.
"If it were merely faith, Satan would be saved."
No, although Satan accepts the truth and power of Father's Word, the only confidence he has is in himself. Thus, in his arrogance, he blatantly refuses to submit himself to Father's Word or to Him, yet aspires to be like Him.
---Josef on 5/1/16


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