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Traditions Above The Bible

Why do some Christians exalt the traditions of men above the Bible?

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 ---Jerry6593 on 5/20/16
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\\there were only 3: to abstain from 1) fornication, 2) things strangled, and 3) blood. If there were other essentials, wouldn't they have been mentioned there?\\

Actually, there was a fourth--abstaining from food offered to idols.

See Acts 15.

Note that the Saturday Sabbath is NOT among them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/16/16


Luke I am curious about your statement of the Bible being closed.

When do you belive it was closed? 5th century or the 16th century?
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/16/16


Cluny:

You wrote: StrongAxe, you said something about how the precepts of the Church have nothing to do with salvation.

No, I didn't say that. I DID say various people (e.g. Jesus, Paul) spelled out what was necessary for salvation, and "attending church regularly" was mentioned by neither. Yes, Paul did said "forsake not the assembling of yourselves", but as an exhortation, not an "if you don't go to church, you're going to hell" commandment. When asked what commandments new converts were expected to follow, there were only 3: to abstain from 1) fornication, 2) things strangled, and 3) blood. If there were other essentials, wouldn't they have been mentioned there?
---StrongAxe on 6/15/16


StrongAxe, Mass isn't just a sermon and singing as in your church.

Jesus is made present again by the Holy Spirit. We are uniting ourselves with Jesus. That's why it is called HOLY COMMUNION.

It is higher than married couples uniting themselves.

To commit a MORTAL or GRAVE sin the person HAS TO HAVE ALL 3
1.the thought, desire, word, action, or omission must be seriously wrong or considered seriously wrong,
2.the sinner, must be mindful of the serious wrong,
3.the sinner must fully consent to it.

If one is missing it is a venial sin which is forgiven when Holy Communion is received

Why would you refuse uniting yourself with Jesus at least ONCE a week? What or Who is more important in your life?
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/16/16


StrongAxe, you said something about how the precepts of the Church have nothing to do with salvation.

A comparison can be made with the relation of the 12 Steps to the 12 Traditions.

The 12 Steps apply to the individual himself in dealing with his substance abuse.

The 12 Traditions (as I understand them) have to do with relationships among the members of a group and their mutual responsibility to each other.

BTW, what do you say ARE the Precepts of the Church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/16




Luke:

You wrote: Traditions made after the Bible closed are not valid. They are made by man trying to make their own rules.

That would invalidate things like Catholicism, Protestantism, denominations, pews, altar calls, bus ministries, televangelism, people having personal copies of the Bible, and Christian blogs. Also, the Bible itself, since scriptural canon was not established until several centuries AFTER the last book in it was written, and the list of books emerged by popular consensus - i.e. post-Biblical tradition.

Traditions aren't wrong by themselves. Paul himself tells people to keep to the traditions they have been taught. The problem happens when a tradition renders the word of God null and void.
---StrongAxe on 6/15/16


Traditions made after the Bible closed are not valid. They are made by man trying to make their own rules.
---Luke on 6/15/16


StrongAxe said, "The B.C. was the standard Catholic religion school text in the United States from 1885 to the late 1960s. Even if it is currently outmoded, it reflects teachings that were in effect during our lifetimes."

I was using the Vatican Website, which has things organized differently. Yes, I remember the old BC, but it is outmoded. That is why the RCC is trying to produce a new one in the same simple question and answer format found in the BC.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/15/16


\\that your salvation is jeopardized by not going, which means attending Mass is a NECESSARY component of salvation.\\

It's not so much NOT going, but in REFUSING to go, barring providential hinderance.

If one, not providentially hindered, is simply REFUSING to go to worship (and this might apply to all Christians) then that person is simply out of the will of God.

And what do we call being out of the will of God?

Think really hard.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/16


Monk_Brendan:

You wrote: when I looked up #390 in the Catechism, I got this: ... Where did you get your copy?

I googled the exact words from the quote to find its source:
"It is a mortal sin not to hear Mass on a Sunday"

It appears to be from the Baltimore Catechism, lesson 35, paragraph 390.
(389 lists the 6 CHIEF commandments of the Church, none of which is any of Jesus's main teachings)

The B.C. was the standard Catholic religion school text in the United States from 1885 to the late 1960s. Even if it is currently outmoded, it reflects teachings that were in effect during our lifetimes.
---StrongAxe on 6/15/16




Cluny:

You wrote: the serious reasons include illness...

You missed my point. The church declares that, barring "reasonable excuses", missing Sunday Mass is a MORTAL SIN - i.e. that your salvation is jeopardized by not going, which means attending Mass is a NECESSARY component of salvation.

To my way of thinking, this is imposing additional "do or die" burdens on us that neither Jesus nor the Apostles did, like Pharisees teaching traditions of men. Because this imposition of burdens contradicts the freedom we have in Christ, it can raise to the category of "other gospel" that Paul warned about - he said anyone who preaches a gospel different from what he preached is to be condemned.
---StrongAxe on 6/14/16


StrongAxe said, "I can't speak to the Orthodox church, but the Catholic church has Holy Days of Obligation (sundays plus a few others like Christmas and Easter). While attending mass on other days is optional, going to church on those days is mandatory."

StrongAxe, when I looked up #390 in the Catechism, I got this: 390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

I went to the Vatican Website.

Where did you get your copy?
---Monk_Brendan on 6/14/16


\\\EGW said that "health reform" was part of the "everlasting Gospel."///

Oh yum! I love Grape Nuts.

I do find it odd, though, that the one thing that was supposed to be in Grape Nuts to make them goood for u was grape sugar, which doesn't exist!
---Dementio on 6/14/16


StrongAxe, the serious reasons include illness, caring for the sick, and necessary work.

I would imagine that simply not being able to get there would be acceptable, too.

Is there any good reason that Protestants would not attend church besides these?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/14/16


All churches are supposed only exalt Jesus Christ and GOD the father.

We are all supposed to love GOD and love others.

None of us are to spread hate and discriminate against others.

A day kept in honor and worship of GOD. Is not to celebrate the day. But to spend time with our Father in Heaven and with the son. To help others and encourage others to love and be kind.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/14/16


Cluny:

You wrote: The Orthodox Church exalts our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, not a day.

I can't speak to the Orthodox church, but the Catholic church has Holy Days of Obligation (sundays plus a few others like Christmas and Easter). While attending mass on other days is optional, going to church on those days is mandatory.

From the Catholic catechism:
390. Is it a mortal sin not to hear Mass on a Sunday or a holyday of obligation?
A. It is a mortal sin not to hear Mass on a Sunday or a holyday of obligation, unless we are excused for a serious reason. They also commit a mortal sin who, having others under their charge, hinder them from hearing Mass, without a sufficient reason.
---StrongAxe on 6/14/16


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cluny: "EGW said that 'health reform' was part of the 'everlasting Gospel.'"

It is. If you would read the New Testament, you'd find that Jesus spent more time healing than preaching.


"The Orthodox Church exalts our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, not a day."

Oh really? Why then do you not obey His commandments? Why do you call Sunday the Lord's Day? Why do you not follow His example?


"When Christians read references to the Spirit of Prophecy, they understand this means the Holy Spirit."

Now you presume to speak for ALL Christians? Intelligent Christians understand it to mean prophecy inspired by the Holy Spirit.




---Jerry6593 on 6/14/16


Axey: "Thus, Acts 7:38 speaks of Moses being at "an assembly" in the wilderness"

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

You need a new Bible. The Greek word "ekklesia" is used for "church" throughout the New Testament, including Acts 7:38.

What do you think a CHURCH is? A building? A denomination? A social club? I maintain that the CHURCH is, and has always been (from Creation) the collective flock of God's people no matter their ethnicity or denominational affiliation. This is the only biblical definition.


---Jerry6593 on 6/14/16


\\WRONG! The Ortho church does not "keep the Commandments of God" and have the "Spirit of Prophecy" (Rev 12:17 , 19:10). The SDA Church does. The Ortho church exalts a false worship day.\\

1. The Orthodox Church exalts our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, not a day.

2. When Christians read references to the Spirit of Prophecy, they understand this means the Holy Spirit.

But SDA think it means the psychotic ravings of EGW.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/16


Jerry said, " cluny: More diversions. Jesus wore what the common people of his day wore. Do you wear a dress and a funny hat?"

I don't know about a dress. I DO wear a cassock. And the hat I wear can be thought of as funny by some. Look up "KLOBUK" on the internet, and you'll see.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/13/16


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EGW said that "health reform" was part of the "everlasting Gospel."

And you DARE to accuse others of teaching traditions as doctrine?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/16


cluny: More diversions. Jesus wore what the common people of his day wore. Do you wear a dress and a funny hat?

How about addressing the blog issue. Explain why you exalt your traditions above the Bible. (And no, the Bible inside tradition is not an answer.)

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.



---Jerry6593 on 6/13/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: It isn't. It is from the Greek "ekklesia". I would think that a Gr. Orthodox would know that the OT was not written in Greek. However, the "church" did exist in the OT as shown in Acts 7:38.

Thus, Acts 7:38 speaks of Moses being at "an assembly" in the wilderness. His flock were certainly "called out", as God called them out of Egypt, but this doesn't imply it was a "church" in the N.T. sense. There's certainly no evidence of that in Genesis or Eden, as you had claimed earlier.
---StrongAxe on 6/13/16


\\The "church" is the collective of God's people (of all denominations) - not the followers of some guy in a dress and a funny hat.\\

How about the attempts at reforming feminine clothing by EGW?

Have you ever seen those silly pix?

As Monk Brendan pointed out elsewhere, I'm sure the cassocks worn by Orthodox clergy look more like what Christ and the apostles wore than the typical vesture of SDA or other Protestant clergy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/12/16


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cluny: "It resembles the Orthodox Church more than it resembles the SDA."

WRONG! The Ortho church does not "keep the Commandments of God" and have the "Spirit of Prophecy" (Rev 12:17 , 19:10). The SDA Church does. The Ortho church exalts a false worship day.


"Where is the word 'church' found in the OT?"

It isn't. It is from the Greek "ekklesia". I would think that a Gr. Orthodox would know that the OT was not written in Greek. However, the "church" did exist in the OT as shown in Acts 7:38.

The "church" is the collective of God's people (of all denominations) - not the followers of some guy in a dress and a funny hat.

---Jerry6593 on 6/12/16


\\You are right the original church did start in the Garden.\\

Where is the word "church" found in the OT?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/11/16


\\The religion of Jesus and His Apostles bears little resemblance to that of the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches today.\\

It resembles the Orthodox Church more than it resembles the SDA.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/6/16


Good one Jerry.

You are right the original church did start in the Garden.

I should have said the Pre schism church that came from the founding on Pentecost.
agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/5/16


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Sam: "Where Jerry missed [?] up is that the Original church changed."

I don't understand. The original church (the body of Christ) was founded at Creation, consists of true believers of all denominations (and some of none), and has been changing ever since sin entered. The religion of Jesus and His Apostles bears little resemblance to that of the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches today.

What did I miss?



---Jerry6593 on 6/5/16


All true tradition comes from the Bible, not from unwritten tradition The infallible authority of Gods words in the Bible rules over any tradition We evaluate all traditions from the single infallible authority, is it Biblical?
---michael_e on 6/4/16


I don't believe anyone can show you those two churches were not the original. I have seen some try.

But you are correct those two churches together were the original church founded on Pentecost.

Where Jerry missed up is that the Original church changed. It adapted doctrines that allowed evil men to hold office based on the office being holy. These false teachers changed the doctrines that the early church followed and placed traditions above the Bible.

We are saying we are getting back to what the Apostles in the Bible taught. We do this by making the Bible the final authority in doctrines. Just as the Bible says it is.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/2/16


If knowing the truth meant most every historically significant man, scholar, teacher, or philosopher was wrong? Would you want to know it?
Paul writes let God be true, but every man a liar (Rom 3:4).
Human reason and experience can be deceiving, but God and his revelation are never wrong.
It's naive to think any church, country, preacher, or tradition has the market on truth. But when we are willing to believe God before tradition or training then we are one step closer to gaining what is more valuable than both: the truth.
You can't understand the preaching of Christ according to the revelation of the mystery unless you believe we should let God be true and every man a liar.
(2 Tim 2:15)
---michael_e on 6/2/16


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Jerry said, "...Jesus did not start the RCC. It was established centuries later. The RCC is built on tradition, as many Catholics affirm. We protestants exalt the Bible - not tradition - as our standard of faith."

You have yet to show me proof, with evidence, to show that the Catholic and Orthodox church was not the original church started by Jesus, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

At this point, I will even accept a non-biased Protestant report. But it should have the respect of the Methodists or some other mainline denomination.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/2/16


\\The early church was not run by the pope. He was just one of 3 or more Bishops. They were eq\\

Five PATRIARCHS.

There were many more than 3 or 5 bishops.

Patriarchs were the bishops of principal cities of the Empire.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/16


Nicole the Orthodox churches were one with the RCC until 1054 AD.

Look up the great schism.

The early church was not run by the pope. He was just one of 3 or more Bishops. They were equals.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/31/16


Nicole: "You will find this shocking but if you are NOT Catholic you exalt traditions of men instead of God."

Not only shocking, but completely ridiculous. Jesus did not start the RCC. It was established centuries later. The RCC is built on tradition, as many Catholics affirm. We protestants exalt the Bible - not tradition - as our standard of faith.



monk: Thanks for the spell-check. It seems you have supplanted cluny as the official finder of errors.



---Jerry6593 on 5/31/16


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You will find this shocking but if you are NOT Catholic you exalt traditions of men instead of God.
Logically, since Jesus started the RCC any other religions are by men with their odd rules and traditions.

Who started the Wednesday night service?
Why not in the morning so you can praise God first in the day instead of last?

Why is the worship of God shorter than the preaching?

Why does the Pastor get more attention then Jesus?

Strange customs to me.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/30/16


Jerry said, "However, if the word psychobabble offends you, I will change it to a word introduced by cluny himself - "bumf", which I understand from an English (or was it Australian) CN contributor to roughly translate as used toilet paper."

Please spell it correctly, BUMPF!

From the Urban Dictionary: Bumpf: Useless printed instuctions and manuals.
Originated in England during World War II when English soldiers were overwelmed with unnecessary printed materials and used them as they would toilet tissue or "bum fodder".
---Monk_Brendan on 5/30/16


monk: "Jerry, you did make a statement about Cluny's statement. Therefore, an answer."

Non sequitur! I made a "comment" about his statement - not an answer to a question.



Sam: My use of the word psychobabble to describe cluny's obfuscating circumlocutions of pretended erudite understanding of esoteric concepts has been going on for years. I am amazed that you can keep up your one-sided debates with him as if he can be reasoned with.

However, if the word psychobabble offends you, I will change it to a word introduced by cluny himself - "bumf", which I understand from an English (or was it Australian) CN contributor to roughly translate as used toilet paper.



---Jerry6593 on 5/30/16


Jerry said, "cluny: "The Orthodox view is the Bible WITHIN tradition."

Pure psychobabble. I own several Bibles, and none of them are within your false traditions."


Jerry, you did make a statement about Cluny's statement. Therefore, an answer.

Therefore, DUHHH to you too!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/29/16


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Now Cluny I am confused about which topic I was speaking on. We cover so much. Here is this point.

Matthew Henry commentary on Leviticus 23.

Zondervan bible pictorial dictionary on Sabbath.

I looked it up also in my Smith's Bible dictionary and it confirms Leviticus 23:1-3 is about the Seventh day Sabbath.

I did not use any Seventh day Adventist source to show this.

The New International Study Bible puts the Passage under the heading the Sabbath.

I have more but I need to find them again. agape

Have you found a source that disagrees?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/29/16


\\Where is that quote in the Bible? BCV, please.

I ask this because eye for an eye did show up in my electronic Concordance, but your quote simply wasn't there.\\

Monk_Brendan, it's in John 1, just before St. John the Baptist appears.

++But Cluny I answered and you ignored my answer. Or did you just miss it?++

I could easily have missed it, Samuel.

Can you post it again, please?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/16


John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Her quote was either a little off or from a different translation.

Please Jerry quit using the word psychobabble. It doesn't mean what you are tying to say. Nor should we be insulting no matter what the other person does. We are to be like Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/29/16


Kathr said, "...the LAW came through Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST."

Where is that quote in the Bible? BCV, please.

I ask this because eye for an eye did show up in my electronic Concordance, but your quote simply wasn't there.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/28/16


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But Cluny I answered and you ignored my answer. Or did you just miss it?

We are to be convicted by the word of GOD through the power of the Holy Spirit about what is truth. Not just accept what men say.

The Jewish leaders said Jesus was a false prophet. Should the people have accepted their word since they were the Church leaders?

If so then there would be no Christians today?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/27/16


cluny: "Once more when Jerry cannot answer my statements"

Duuhh - one does not answer statements, oh great psychobabbler, one answers questions.



---Jerry6593 on 5/27/16


Once more when Jeery cannot answer my statements, he mocks them as psychobabble.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/26/16


cluny: "The Orthodox view is the Bible WITHIN tradition."

Pure psychobabble. I own several Bibles, and none of them are within your false traditions.


"Contrary to the false dichotomy of Jerry's original question of this blog, the Bible DOES say there is a Tradition according to Christ."

The dichotomy is not false. Some of your traditions are indeed at variance with the plain teaching of Scripture. When you believe them rather than the Bible, you exalt them above it.

The traditions taught in the Bible are the TEACHINGS of Christ - not the OPINIONS of Orthodox church fathers.


Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

---Jerry6593 on 5/26/16


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Because the Holy spirit conviction from the Word of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/25/16


Romans 4:21

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

I do suppose the Orthodox and RCC maybe Mormons have to be told what to believe, and would come under persecution of their institutions if they had a personal belief or thought of their own....much like Luther experienced after reading Romans. However, Abraham is our example of faith, of not having to get someone else's permission. Even Job stuck to his own convictions. And good for him, since God said the others were not speaking truth.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/16


\\You are not accepting what a person tells you just because they have a church position.
\\

Then why else are you accepting it?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/25/16


"As I matured in Christ I came to know that it was the work of the Holy Spirit that brought me to my Savior.

So while in some ways it was my decision. It was not on my authority and not by my power. But by the Grace of GOD alone that I recognized the truth of the word of GOD. The Authority is from GOD and His word.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/16"
Amen Samuel, wisdom is a beautiful thing.
---joseph on 5/24/16


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Some good points Kathyr and Trav. Thank you.

I cannot use the word authority here on my choice. For when you make a choice based on research, praying and asking for guidance from GOD. You are not accepting what a person tells you just because they have a church position.

I didn't know then because I lacked the knowledge. But that it was the Holy Spirit that was calling me and leading me. As I matured in Christ I came to know that it was the work of the Holy Spirit that brought me to my Savior.

So while in some ways it was my decision. It was not on my authority and not by my power. But by the Grace of GOD alone that I recognized the truth of the word of GOD. The Authority is from GOD and His word.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/16


In reference to Cluny's post ..eye for eye. John it begins...the LAW came through Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST. The time of the LAW was passing, eye for eye, and Jesus, who,is God was the perfect embodiment of God's LOVE towards sinners, in that God so loved the world He gave His son to die for our sin. Was it not also prophesied in the OT, that under the New Covenant , I WILL FORGIVE YOUR SIN? Jesus ministry is thoroughly grounded in Scripture. The coming dispensation of GRACE we live in now.

Jerry, many of the traditions were based on pagan beliefs brought into Christianity. There also was no virgin goddess MARY until the RCC had to appeal to the Greeks and replace their virgin goddess Diana with Mary.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/16


Cluny, I believe Samuel is saying he has put his faith in the authority of God's word over mans words and traditions. It's called FAITH Cluny. Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted unto him Righteousness. It works this way. God speaks FIRST, we either believe or we don't. To believe by your own authority is to believe traditions of man over God. You've chosen your own authority over the authority of God.
---kathr453 on 5/24/16


\\If the bible is the word of God,then why do you change the Feast of First Fruits to easter sunday?
---mike on 5/23/16\\

Easter (called Pascha by the Orthodox) is the Resurrection of Christ.

Pentecost, or Feast of the First Fruits, is among Christians the Sunday some 50 days afterwards.

It was NEVER combined with Pascha.

Where did you get the idea it was?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/24/16


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In other words, Samuel, you decided on your own authority.
---Cluny on 5/23/16

Which you decided kneeling before the orthodox authority. I mean Samuel at least searches the scriptures, trying to show his stand. His church is confused ...but, yours is the mother of confusion. With your papa/pope being the father of it.
Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
---Trav on 5/24/16


\\But then I met people who showed me why the Bible is the word of GOD. The fulfilled prophecy, the history facts and events that the Bible had proven from history. The scientific and psychological truths that modern men discovered in the modern era but that GOD had shown thousands of years ago. \\

In other words, Samuel, you decided on your own authority.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/16


If the bible is the word of God,then why do you change the Feast of First Fruits to easter sunday?
---mike on 5/23/16


I actually spent two years studying this topic. But not from the viewpoint you have. I didn't believe in GOD and I thought the Bible was a mishmash of lies and untruths. Which many atheists I read told me.

Most people I talked to just said believe and accept it. But that made no sense to me. I tried to read it but found it boring and worthless.

But then I met people who showed me why the Bible is the word of GOD. The fulfilled prophecy, the history facts and events that the Bible had proven from history. The scientific and psychological truths that modern men discovered in the modern era but that GOD had shown thousands of years ago.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/23/16


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Samuel, just how do you know that what's in the Bible is in fact the Word of God?

To say, "Because it's in the Bible" is circular reasoning.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/16


Good point Cluny. Jesus expounded on the scriptures. He had that right.

For instance in Matthew 5 he teaches on the Commandments of GOD that they apply to your thoughts as well as actions.

So should we not heed the words of Jesus and put his words above those of other men?


Should not the Word of GOD be our standard by which we test the truth of our Doctrines?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/23/16


\\When Jesus wanted to correct anyone he pointed them to Scripture. \\

Not always.

For example, He said, "You have heard it said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' {which is in the Torah] But ***I*** say unto you, love your enemies....." et reliqua.

There are other places.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/22/16


Cluny I still make mistakes. That I do so and some days fail to spell. Quit bothering me a long time ago.

When Jesus wanted to correct anyone he pointed them to Scripture.


Matthew 21:13

And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer, but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Paul did the same thing.


Romans 3:4

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So did Peter.

1Peter 1:16

Because it is written, Be ye holy, for I am holy.

Sola scriptura Points to that Scripture is above the words of men and traditions.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/22/16


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Cluny the Old Testament was compiled by Jewish scholars.

The New Testament was compiled by the pre-schism church under the guidance of Scholars.

So if you say I follow that tradition. I won't argue that.

True all words spoken by Jesus and GOD are not written down. That does not imply that we can ignore those that are.

Mark 7:9-11

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother, and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me, he shall be free.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/22/16


Samuel, did you notice that Monk Brendan pointed out that you misquoted the verse you gave?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/21/16


\\And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.\\

As Reuben just pointed out, was every word uttered by God written down?

The Bible says, "No."

This is a problem with Sola Scriptura.

Nowhere does the Bible even say in the text what writings should be in it, and what writings excluded.

Any reliance on the Bible, especially the NT, as generally received now is in fact a reliance on Tradition, in this case, a Tradition according to Christ, as I mentioned earlier.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/21/16


Samuel BB quoted, "Matthew 4:4

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."


John 21:25 says, And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

According to John, not everything that Jesus said and did is recorded in the Bible! Are you telling me that if it isn't in the Bible Jesus didn't say it? Or do it?
---Monk_Brendan on 5/21/16


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Samuel BB said, " The Problem is Cluny is that Sola Scriptura is the doctrine that the Bible is above all tradition and the final authority in all matters of doctrine and teaching."

Where, exactly, do you find the words "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible? Book Chapter and verse, please. Or "Scripture only" (an English translation)?

BTW, Sola Scriptura is a Latin phrase.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/21/16


A perfect example of people placing traditions above the Bible is the Lord's Prayer.

According what is written in Scripture, what people call the Lord's Prayer, is WRONG!!!!!
---Rob on 5/20/16


\\So do you accept Sola Scriptura? Or do you say Tradition is above or equal to scripture.\\

Neither, actually, Samuel.

The Orthodox view is the Bible WITHIN tradition.

Contrary to the false dichotomy of Jerry's original question of this blog, the Bible DOES say there is a Tradition according to Christ.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/21/16


Luke 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/20/16

Samuel,

Where does Jesus tell the apostles to write everything down ?

Jesus tells the Apostles, " Whoever LISTENS to you LISTENS to me, and whoever REJECTS you REJECTS me " LK 10:16

Scripture also tells us " But there are also many other things Jesus did, If every one of them was written down, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." Jhn 21:25
---Ruben on 5/21/16


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The Problem is Cluny is that Sola Scriptura is the doctrine that the Bible is above all tradition and the final authority in all matters of doctrine and teaching.

You have stated and others also that you don't follow this teaching.


Matthew 4:4

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

So do you accept Sola Scriptura? Or do you say Tradition is above or equal to scripture. They are the two sides in debate here.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/20/16


I know of none who do, but I know Jeery thinks he does.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/20/16


The "bible",...this word is NOT in scripture ("bible" is MAN'S version of God) is the 'status quo' (popularly accepted as genuine truth) and 'approved information.

REAL truth is not TAUGHT by the clergy.

The "bible" is mankinds COMFORT ZONE.
---faithforfaith on 5/20/16


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