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Strike Books From Canon

Of those reformers who claim their decisions to strike books from the Canon are from the Holy Ghost, we ask that you please show proof. Why would the Holy Ghost suddenly give inspirations as to what everyone must believe to unknown men like Luther and Calvin, after they had been preached for 1200 years?

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 ---Monk_Brendan on 5/21/16
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Brendan and Cluny,

I'd invite you gentlemen to please read the the Glossa Ordinaria,

see below:


'Here begins the book of Tobit which is not in the canon, here begins the book of Judith which is not in the canon' and so forth for Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, and Maccabees etc.

The Glossia Ordinaria followed Jerome's Decision regarding the books.
---john9346 on 6/5/16


"the church reads them and permits them to be read by the faithful for devotion and edification. Their authority, however, is not considered adequate for proving those things which come into doubt or contention, or for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogma, as blessed Jerome states in his prologue to Judith and to the books of Solomon.
---john9346 on 6/5/16


John 9346 asked about the Glossa Ordinaria.

The Glossa Ordinaria, originating at the cathedral school of Laon at the threshold of the 12th century, well after Jerome. So he could not have looked at it, or made comments in it.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/4/16


First off, Jerome did not reject the 7 or so books. He translated them.

Second, the fact remains that the Pre-Reformation Churches accept them TODAY, including ancient Churches of Apostolic foundation that had NOTHING to do with Rome.

BTW--did you know that the Armenian Church did not accept Revelation until the 13th Century?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/3/16


Cluny:

You said:

"And you don't think these are the entirety of the pre-Reformation Christians, do you?"

Have you ever read the Glossa ordinaria?

"And you don't think these are the entirety of the pre-Reformation Christians, do you?"

If you read the Glossa ordinaria, then your question will be answered...

This document shows us that the Pre-Reformation Churches followed Jerome'sWork and View regarding the apocrypha.
---john9346 on 6/3/16




\\The quotes by Augustine, Jerome, and I mentioned the the Glossa ordinaria prooves both of you wrong.\\

And you don't think these are the entirety of the pre-Reformation Christians, do you?

The FACT remains that the pre-Reformation Churches DO accept these books today.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/16


cluny:

You state:

"By whom? Not by the vast majority of Christians throughout history."

Sir, you keep stating this, but when asked repeatedly, you and Brendan both fail consistently to provide Historical Evidential Facts...

The quotes by Augustine, Jerome, and I mentioned the the Glossa ordinaria prooves both of you wrong.
---john9346 on 6/2/16


\\So everyone seeking the truth can understand more about why the apocrypha was rejected.\\

By whom?

Not by the vast majority of Christians throughout history.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/16


So everyone seeking the truth can understand more about why the apocrypha was rejected.

The books of the apocrypha were written during (the-400-years of Silence) between the Book of Malachi and the Birth of Christ

The writer of Maccabees tells us about this time.

See, 1 Maccabees 4:46, 9:27, and 14:41
---john9346 on 6/1/16


""During the same time also those things were done which are written in the book of Judith, which, indeed, the Jews are said not to have received into the canon of the scriptures ...""

"The Jews do not have this Scripture which is called Maccabees, as they do the law and the prophets, to which the Lord bears testimony as to his witnesses."

Augustine
---john9346 on 6/1/16




Brendan:

You state:

"Ah, but most Protestants look upon them as equal to the Apostles and Prophets."

Sir, When you can name and cite in the presence of everyone a Christian who believes this and has stated this then I will be happy to dialog with you on this.

"You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paulsay right out


Sir, with respect to you, do you understand this context??

How is this Divine Authority??
---john9346 on 5/31/16


Cluny:

You state:

"He would quote the Torah, and then continue, "But ***I*** say unto you...." and basically revoke a passage."

Sir, thank you for answering the question the Lord Jesus Christ always pointed back to "The Scriptures." "It is written." "Have you not read." over and over and over again it was Scripture.

Cluny, note,



The definition of Chalcedon ends, "even as the prophets
from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
---john9346 on 5/31/16


John 9346 said, "Sir, not sure what you mean by their text being "Divinely Authoritative." since they never claim such position in their writings....they also never claimed to be "Infallible."

Ah, but most Protestants look upon them as equal to the Apostles and Prophets. True you don't quote them directly, but your thoughts are formed by them.

And a quote from Martin St. Luther: You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paulsay right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'
---Monk_Brendan on 5/31/16


\\When Jesus walked the earth, what standard/authority did he appeal to for judging between right and wrong, truth from error, and true doctrine from false doctrine?\\

Himself.

He would quote the Torah, and then continue, "But ***I*** say unto you...." and basically revoke a passage.

\\What standard/authority did the Ecumenical Councils appeal to to defend the Deity of Christ, to condemn Monophysitism, and to condemn Pelagianism??\\

It wasn't the Scriptures.

The Definition of Chalcedon, which condemned Monophysitism begins, "Following the Holy Fathers..."

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/16


Monk Brendan while I disagree with you on the Apocrypha.

I agree the men were inspired by the Holy spirit.

But that God didn't dictate the words.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/31/16


Brendan:

You said:

"Then how can you prove that Luther's text, or Calvin's or Zwingli's is Divinely Authoritative?"

Sir, not sure what you mean by their text being "Divinely Authoritative." since they never claim such position in their writings. Remember, Luther, Calvin's, and Zwingli were Sola Scripturists, they also never claimed to be "Infallible."

The standard of Luther, Calvin's, Zwingli, etc. were the "Scriptures."
---john9346 on 5/31/16


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Brendan said, "And I still hold to that. God did not sit down with Moses and make him take dictation of the Torah. He used Moses' personality, culture, and vocabulary. Why do you insist that God literally spoke each word that is in the Bible?"

First, because Moses himself believed and taught that the words he wrote were not his own, but God's.

Can you explain why in your view the Dictation Process God can not use ones personality, culture, and vocabulary to sallitify his "Words and meaning."


Remember, You once stated on another blog, "If the Holy Spirit is God (which He is), then God can do anything,"
---john9346 on 5/31/16


Brendan,

As I have said to you now 3 times now, you must show us all on this blog that the apocrypha (OT) has always been "Scripture."

The problem you have sir is history is against you.

The Jewish HistorianJosephus, Philo of Alexandria, Aquila the translator, and the Babylonians Talmud all testify that the Hebrew Canon was made up of 22 books excluding the apocrypha.

Cluny, the Glossa ordinaria, shows you to be wrong in stating that all Pre-Reformational Churches believed and taught that the apocrypha has always been Scripture.
---john9346 on 5/30/16


John 9346 said, "When Jesus...what standard/authority did he appeal to...?

What standard/authority did the Ecumenical Councils appeal to to defend the Deity of Christ...?"


What standard/authority did Luther, Calvin, others, or you have to rip books out of Scripture? Remember, in Rev 22:18-19 God said, For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/30/16


John 9346 said, "This shows just because a book is mention it doesn't prooves it is Divinely Authoritative."

Then how can you prove that Luther's text, or Calvin's or Zwingli's is Divinely Authoritative?
---Monk_Brendan on 5/30/16


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Brendan:

You said:

"How about Jesus Himself? Is He not infallible authority?"

Is not Jesus and his word 1? Can you separate Jesus from his word?

When Jesus walked the earth, what standard/authority did he appeal to for judging between right and wrong, truth from error, and true doctrine from false doctrine?

What standard/authority did the Ecumenical Councils appeal to to defend the Deity of Christ, to condemn Monophysitism, and to condemn Pelagianism??
---john9346 on 5/30/16


Brendan,

If you examine the 3 Manuscripts of Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus.

They contradict each other and the council of Trent.

Examples, Vaticanus does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and a work known as the Psalms of Solomon.

This shows just because a book is mention it doesn't prooves it is Divinely Authoritative.
---john9346 on 5/30/16


John 9346 said,"Well sir, when you stated, "It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God," this statement denies the authority of Scripture fundamentally..."

And I still hold to that. God did not sit down with Moses and make him take dictation of the Torah. He used Moses' personality, culture, and vocabulary. Why do you insist that God literally spoke each word that is in the Bible?

Nor does this idea go against even Mainstream Protestant ideas of inspiration, and it does not deny the inspiration by God to the original authors
---Monk_Brendan on 5/30/16


john9346, you have challenged my statement that all the Pre-Reformation churches accept the Apocrypha as preserved in the LXX.

A quick search of "Coptic Church + Apocrypha", "Syriac Church...." and similar terms will reveal that my statement is true.

One surprising thing I found out is that the Armenian Church did not accept Revelation (note there is no S at the end) until the 13th century.

As an article I found called "Myths about the Apocrypha" said, "Eastern Orthodoxy has claimed all seven these books of the Bible as holy and divinely inspired from the early years of Christianity."

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/30/16


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Some of the Ecumenical councils have give us a lot of truth. That I agree with. But teacjomgs must be tested.

If the truth is based on the Bible. Which is the Word of GOD. Then I will follow it.

Which is why I and my church believe in the Trinity.

But if it goes against the Bible and makes the Bible subordinate to their ideas. Then I cannot go along with it.



When I present scripture they tell me it doesn't means what it says or they ignore it.

I just want what the Berean's did.


Act 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/30/16


John 9346 said, "1. I am waiting for Brendan to tell us of another "Infallible Authority." other than the bible?"

How about Jesus Himself? Is He not infallible authority? Then there is the Holy Spirit, which has inspired the ecumenical councils (not that you care about that).

"2. I am waiting for Brendan to show us that the Apocrypha (OT) has always been accepted as "Scripture." prior to Trent in 1546??"

The Apocrypha IS in Codex Sinaticus which is the oldest known Christian Bible dated around 350AD, before Jerome was born and contains the books called Apocrypha today yet in this codex there is no distinction between old testament and apocrypha.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/29/16


\\4. I am waiting for Cluny to please tell us how Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon are not "Theopneustos."?\\

I never said they were not.

My point is that what you say about the Apocrypha not saying, "Thus says the Lord," or similar words applies to the other 7 books as well.

On what authority do YOU reject them is the real question.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/16


I wish everyone would at least read what Wikipedia says. I have found this site to be a good source of information.

Many do recognize it as such. If you believe a point is wrong you can dig deeper in other sources. But I recommend trying it as a starting point.

There are many untrustworthy sites.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/29/16


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questions that have not been answered:

1. I am waiting for Brendan to tell us of another "Infallible Authority." other than the bible?

2. I am waiting for Brendan to show us that the Apocrypha (OT) has always been accepted as "Scripture." prior to Trent in 1546??

3. I am waiting for Cluny to show us that all the Pre-Reformation Churches accepted the Apocrypha as "Scripture"?

4. I am waiting for Cluny to please tell us how Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon are not "Theopneustos."?
---john9346 on 5/29/16


Brendan states, "
Wrong! "Let there be light" does not mean "I am about to create light, and I want to make sure that in the future anyone writing this account, will understand it as the inspired word of God.""

So now sir does God not mean what he said?

Remember what I once said to you on a Prior Blog because you just demonstrated exactly as I stated,

"Well sir, when you stated, "It was written by men, not as in taking dictation from God," this statement denies the authority of Scripture fundamentally..."
---john9346 on 5/29/16


\\What you must show on this blog is the Apocrypha (OT) has always been accepted as "Scripture."
---john9346 on 5/27/16\\

It has been by all the pre-Reformation Churches.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/28/16


Trav said, "... you confess to a papa/father/pope. He directs your doctrines. Not Christ."

Trav, you are a mess. You seem to think I have never read the Bible, and I don't know my elbow from a hole in the ground.

You seem to think that I am a robot, following the Roman Catholic Church to what you think is the Pit. I am saved, I do read the Bible, and I am not a robot.

You rant and rave that I am not citing Scripture, but when I do, you denigrate my use of it. You obviously think I cannot be saved, so go ahead, and rant, rave, and laugh yourself to perdition!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/27/16


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God told ME! ... you you have believe the same thing, that I am following the Holy Spirit.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16

Here is your problem ... you confess to a papa/father/pope. He directs your doctrines. Not Christ. Who you seldom if ever reference. You referenced many authors of men, none of them prophets referred by GOD. Christ referenced them...but, your doctrines don't.
Mat_23:9 call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,...
Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, increased him.
---Trav on 5/27/16


cluny:

You said:

"LXX means Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT made 2 centuries before Christ, as has been stated many times here."

And like I said to you prior most people don't know what that mean.

"and opening chapters of Joshua."

Sir, tell the readers where in Joshua citeves verses??

"Cite for us, the verse?"

Gen 1, "God said, God said, God said."

"Are you so ignorant of the Bible, john9346?"

Tell us, how does resorting to juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks serve those hear seeking the truth.
---john9346 on 5/27/16


Cluny sir,

If you had read the context of 1 Pet 4:8, then you would know that Peter is clearly talking about our relationship towards each others sins against us.

See, vs 1-4.

The verse in context is not even dealing with Acts of Goodness at all.

Have you not read of Paul's Usage of Charity in 1 Cor 13 he states, "Charity keeps no record of wrongs."

Brendan,

What you must show on this blog is the Apocrypha (OT) has always been accepted as "Scripture."
---john9346 on 5/27/16


John 9346 said, "When the statements, ""Thus Says The Lord." "The Lord said.", "God Said." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." These statements mean that God is saying, ""all of what I am about to say is inspired of the Holy Spirit."

Wrong! "Let there be light" does not mean "I am about to create light, and I want to make sure that in the future anyone writing this account, will understand it as the inspired word of God."

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. (Rev 22:18 KJV)
---Monk_Brendan on 5/27/16


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<<<"Again, this is why I have asked you repeatedly to please study what Paul said of the Scriptures that they are, "Theopneustos.">>>

OO OO! I know this one. All my parents ever spoke was Greek. Theopneustos means "God Breathed," meaning that God breathed His Word into each of the athors of the Bible so that they could write His Word properly.
---Dementio on 5/27/16


LXX means Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT made 2 centuries before Christ, as has been stated many times here.

\\Sir, provide for us, where Rahab lied??\\

Heb 11:31, James 2:25, and opening chapters of Joshua.

\\ "That's in Genesis as well."

Cite for us, the verse?
\\

Read it for yourself.

Are you so ignorant of the Bible, john9346?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/16


1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

john9346, here's a passage you asked about.

While many times the KJV renders the Greek word AGAPE as "charity," even in the contemporary use of "charity" as "almsgiving", it still applies.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/16


Brendan states, "
I have. There are many things that say "God said". However, all of those things are God creating the heavens and the earth. There is not one point where God says, "all of what I am about to say is inspired of the Holy Spirit."

Sir, when the statements, ""Thus Says The Lord." "The Lord said.", "God Said." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." These statements mean that God is saying, ""all of what I am about to say is inspired of the Holy Spirit.""

Again, this is why I have asked you repeatedly to please study what Paul said of the Scriptures that they are, "Theopneustos."
---john9346 on 5/27/16


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John 9346 said, "The writers themselves of the Apocrypha never claimed "Inspiration." "Divinely Authoritative." as the Eastern Orthodox or the rcc or Melkites state."

Where in the Bible--not footnotes or introductions--but actually IN the text where anything except the Decalogue where God wrote upon the stone tablets or 2 Tim 3:16--where is there an announcement that the text of this book is holy, and is the inspired Word of God?
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16


Cluny:

You said:

"john9346, Rahab the harlot lied to protect the Hebrew spies,"

Sir, provide for us, where Rahab lied??

"That's in Genesis as well."

Cite for us, the verse?

"I did not say Hebrews. I said HEBREW ESTHER--as opposed to Greek Esther, which is the version in the LXX."

Tell everybody, what is LXX?
---john9346 on 5/26/16


Cluny ask, "john9346, where are prayers for the dead forbidden elsewhere in the Bible?"

Deut 18:9-13

Cluny states, "As far as almsgiving, they ideally are done out of love for neighbor, and the NT says specifically that love covers a multitude of sins."

Cite for us in the NT where it says specifically that love covers a multitude of sins.?

Tell everyone who wrote this and show us where the writer clearly states that Alms Giving forgives sins??
---john9346 on 5/26/16


John 9346 said, "Sir really?? have you not read Genesis 1??"

I have. There are many things that say "God said". However, all of those things are God creating the heavens and the earth. There is not one point where God says, "all of what I am about to say is inspired of the Holy Spirit."
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16


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john9346, Rahab the harlot lied to protect the Hebrew spies, yet is listed among the righteous in the Letter to the Hebrews.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/26/16


All of you are debating the wrong issue. I did not ask for complaints about the apocrypha, I asked for proof that God told these "reformers" to remove these texts after 1200 years IN the Bible.

Was it God? Or was it more convenient to remove books that someone didn't agree with. If that's the case, then, on my own authority--just like Luther and Calvin, I'll take out some chapters, and write a few new ones!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16


Samuel BB said, "But you do have an excuse. You can say I believe they are inspired because I am told they are inspired by church leaders. They are your final authority after all aren't they?"

Okay, here is a statement, I believe them because God has told ME that they belong. Not a pope, bishop, priest, deacon, or nun. God told ME! Now, if I have to believe that you follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then you you have believe the same thing, that I am following the Holy Spirit.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/26/16


\\the practice/acceptance of magic/superstition, ...\\

That's in Genesis as well. Remember the different kinds of poles that Jacob set up to influence the color of the sheep and goats conceived in front of them?

Of Joseph's golden cup he said one such as he would use for divining?

++Cluny states, "The same thing can be said about Hebrew Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon."

Sir, tell us, starting with Hebrews, how is Hebrews not inspired??++

I did not say Hebrews. I said HEBREW ESTHER--as opposed to Greek Esther, which is the version in the LXX.

Please read more carefully--and learn to spell ESTHER while you're at it.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/25/16


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john9346, where are prayers for the dead forbidden elsewhere in the Bible?

Specific BCV, please.

As far as almsgiving, they ideally are done out of love for neighbor, and the NT says specifically that love covers a multitude of sins.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/25/16


Cluny:

You state:

"That's debatable."

Tell us, Debatable by whom??

"I'm talking about the OT apocrypha."

That as well.

Jerome, Origen, and Cyril of Jerusalem had a lot to say about it.

"Please give an example of such contradiction."

Sure, many Historical Errors, the practice/acceptance of magic/superstition, the teaching that acts of goodness forgives sins, offerings for the dead, prayers for the dead, the preexistance of mankind, praying to lie, and the praise of suicide.
---john9346 on 5/25/16


Cluny states, "The same thing can be said about Hebrew Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon."

Sir, tell us, starting with Hebrews, how is Hebrews not inspired??

John1944 said, "By these parameters, Esther probably belongs with the Apocrypha."

If one reads Ester, they can notdeny the Providence of God through and through.

Also, Jesus and the apostles didn't need to quote Ester in their writings since they were the fulfillment of Ester remeber the Book's Center and Focus.
---john9346 on 5/25/16


\\2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.\\

That's debatable. And as I've pointed out, there is NOT a double n in CANON.

\\3. All Apocryphal Writings (NT) come much later then the First Century.\\

I'm talking about the OT apocrypha.

\\5. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Canonical Books Gen-Revelations.

Please give an example of such contradiction.

\\6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements such as "God Said." ".."\\

Et reliqua.

The same thing can be said about Hebrew Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/25/16


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By these parameters, Esther probably belongs with the Apocrypha. There is no mention of God and we have no idea who wrote it.
---john1944 on 5/24/16


The writers themselves of the Apocrypha never claimed "Inspiration." "Divinely Authoritative." as the Eastern Orthodox or the rcc or Melkites state.

Lets all Remember, the rcc bible wasn't defined until April of 1546 at the Council of Trent the Scriptures by then were well known, quoted, defended, and established.

The last book of Scripture was written about 80 to 90 AD everyone do the math 1546 AD and 80 to 90 AD

Neither did Origen's Teacher Clement of Alexandria list Apocryphal Writings as "Inspired."
---john9346 on 5/24/16


Brendan states, "Such a statement is not in Genesis, either. Does that mean that it is not canonical?"

Sir really?? have you not read Genesis 1??
---john9346 on 5/24/16


Monk Brendan you ignored the statement before by John. You ignored that many other Scholars down through the ages have stated they weren't inspired. Jerome bowed to the church Hierarchy when they demanded they put them in.

Do some research about those who opposed their inclusion. Please don't read just one side.

But you do have an excuse. You can say I believe they are inspired because I am told they are inspired by church leaders. They are your final authority after all aren't they?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/16


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John 9346 said, "6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements such as "God Said." "Thus Says The Lord." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." "It is written," or "the Scriptures say." these statements alone mean "Inspiration." "Divine Authority."

Such a statement is not in Genesis, either. Does that mean that it is not canonical?
---Monk_Brendan on 5/24/16


why the Apocrypha isn't "Scripture.":

1. Neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted the apocrypha.

2. The apocrypha is not in the Jewish Cannon.

3. All Apocryphal Writings (NT) come much later then the First Century.

4. All Apocryphal Writings have False Authorship

5. All apocryphal Writings contradict the Canonical Books Gen-Revelations.

6. The authors of the apocrypha never claimed inspiration statements such as "God Said." "Thus Says The Lord." "Jesus Said." "The Spirit says." "It is written," or "the Scriptures say." these statements alone mean "Inspiration." "Divine Authority."
---john9346 on 5/24/16


Great point Mark Eaton. Thank you.

Other scholars listed them as not fit during those 1200 years.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/16


Brendan,

Listen to Jerome on the apocrypha:

"As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church . . . I say this to show you how hard it is to master the book of Daniel, which in Hebrew contains neither the history of Susanna, nor the hymn of the three youths, nor the fables of Bel and the Dragon."

Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, vol. VI, St. Jerome, Prefaces to Jeromes Works, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs, Daniel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1954)
---john9346 on 5/24/16


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siding with the spiritual descendants of those who rejected our Savior and handed Him over to crucifixion....
---Cluny on 5/24/16

Or you could say that they were deferring to a Higher Authority on the validity of these books.

Why did the Jews not recognize the Apocryphal books as Scripture?

One word, contradiction.

The Apocryphal books contradict other Scripture and therefore were not included in the canon.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/24/16


brendan asked, "Of those reformers who claim their decisions to strike books from the Canon are from the Holy Ghost, we ask that you please show proof."


Well, Jerome, Augustine, Origen, Athenacious, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Basil the Great were Pre-Reformation and they did not believe and teach the Apocrypha was "Inspired."
---john9346 on 5/24/16


We are accepting the Bible that Jesus taught out of.

The apostles used the Greek to reach out to those who couldn't read Hebrew.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/16


\\The Protestants accepted the Jewish canon\\

Changing a 1500 year Christian practice, and siding with the spiritual descendants of those who rejected our Savior and handed Him over to crucifixion.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/24/16


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Well Cluny Mark Eaton gave a great answer that I agree with.

The Protestants accepted the Jewish canon.

I have a RCC Bible called the Jerusalem Bible. So I have read the Apocrypha.

Other earlier Scholars pointed of them as being of lessor worth. So this was not a new idea.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 5/23/16


This question proves the point that the Bible should not be understood using a private interpretation.

The Apocryphal Books while considered by Orthodox as "profitable reading" and by the Catholic church as "holy", are not included within the traditional Jewish canon.

The books were included in the LXX and have been with us ever since.

The Reformers did not strike these books on their own. They used the Jewish canon as a starting point and removed the books not in the Jewish canon.

If you consider Maccabees as "holy", why not the historical works of Josephus, which are quoted by Biblical scholars far more often?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/23/16


Samuel, as I have frequently pointed out, Jesus and the Apostles never quoted from Esther or Obadiah.

Are they therefore to be rejected?

OTOH, Jude quotes Enoch as being authoritative, yet only the Ethiopian Church accepts it.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/16


Samuel BB said, "all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles"

If John the Baptist was a prophet (which almost everybody will agree that he was), then prophecy did not cease. When the Holy Spirit fell on the Church at Pentecost, again, prophesy was going on. So that claim is wrong.

As far as Jesus or the Apostles never quoting from them, How about: Matt.. 7:12 Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/23/16


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The movement/intentions of removal have always been ignored by the clergy. The German priest, Martin Luther wanted the book of Revelations removed because it IS not FOR US (THE SPIRIT-filled).

REVELATIONS WAS WRITTEN TO AND FOR the JEWS (the slaves and servants of God). WE are meant to be SONS of His, NOT SLAVES of His. Revelation 1 says explicitly that it is for SLAVES/SERVANTS.

WE are ADOPTED SONS.

Revelations also says that the Jews had TWO witnesses (WE have THREE (1 John 5:8).
---faithforfaith on 5/23/16


Up until the time of the Reformation pretty much the entire church used an Old Testament which included the so-called Apocrypha and contained at least seventy-three books. At the time of the Reformation the Reformers decided that several of the books should not be included. They did this because they were much smarter and wiser than all who had gone before them.
---john1944 on 5/22/16

John1944-

All of the early Protestant Founders accepted the truth of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and they use the Bible only. How smart and wiser were they??
---Ruben on 5/23/16


Up until the time of the Reformation pretty much the entire church used an Old Testament which included the so-called Apocrypha and contained at least seventy-three books. At the time of the Reformation the Reformers decided that several of the books should not be included. They did this because they were much smarter and wiser than all who had gone before them.
---john1944 on 5/22/16


Monk: All 66 books of the Bible fit together perfectly in context, theme & according to God's divine purpose. The Apocryphal books are square pegs RCC/EOC try to fit in the round hole of overall Bible truth. In short, they are books that are inauthentic & mostly supported by people who don't understand the inspired 66 books of the Bible.
---Leon on 5/22/16


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Literally your correct. Unless you were being sarcastic. Which is hard to hear from typing.

"The Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Bible, was universally received, while the Apocrypha added to the Greek version of the Septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading, and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal (pseudonymous) writings. And justly, for those books, while they have great historical value, and fill the gap between the Old Testament and the New, all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles" (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, book 3, chapter 9)
---Samuelbb7 on 5/22/16


Leon said, " What books Monk, the Apocrypha? It never ceases to amaze me that the people who are way over their heads when it comes to truly understanding the 66 Canon books of the Bible are always the ones who whine the loudest about adding the "square peg" Apocrypha. smh"

Please show me in the 66 book "Canon" where the Apocrypha is/are square pegs? BCV
---Monk_Brendan on 5/21/16


What books Monk, the Apocrypha? It never ceases to amaze me that the people who are way over their heads when it comes to truly understanding the 66 Canon books of the Bible are always the ones who whine the loudest about adding the "square peg" Apocrypha. smh
---Leon on 5/21/16


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