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Meaning Of Immaculate Conception

Does anyone (except Nicole, Ruben, and Brendan) know what the term "Immaculate Conception" actually means?

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 ---Cluny on 5/30/16
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Monk, that came from an X Nun. Excellent article. I feel the best web sites are from X RCC people. They know just as much as you, but have seen the light. I also watched a documentary with Gabrial Bryne, you know the Irish actor, who grew up RCC. What an awesome person. He saw so many contradiction between the Bible and the RCC, that left him so disillusioned that he is now between agnostic and atheist. My heart really went out to him as you could feel the pain he felt when he couldn't reconcile the evil in the RCC. I want people to pray for him. He also talked about the antisemitic attitude so many had and hearing awful jokes etc growing up.....now he is married to a Jewish woman. Love it. The best witnesses are X RCC.
---kathr4453 on 6/20/16


Kathr said, "In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected...teaching as heresy...Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those...who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary...a heresy...Here we have infallible popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another infallible pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine."

Kathr, where, exactly, did you find this quote? If you can't give me a website, give me a description so that I can Google it. Does the website have a title?

Finally, Kathr, I told you to stop looking at biased websites when doing research about Catholics.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/20/16


Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.


Nicole, I'm not sure what you are saying....that scripture does not testify to the resurrection of Jesus Christ????????

And to both Nicole and Monk, if perhaps you see anything other than a conversation, you have issues.

Monk apologized on one blog and continues to act childish on another. What should one make of that?
---kathr4453 on 6/20/16


No one is attacking Nicole. If discussing anything with the RCC is called ATTACK, it is confusing. Monk, you still have not shown where I called you a liar. But if you lied then I guess that does make you a liar doesn't it. You lied here by saying I have attacked Nicole. I am just answering Nicole's questions. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make it an attack. Monk, please stop trying to instigate trouble. I consider that an ATTACK.
---kathr453 on 6/20/16


Notice, please, students, that when Kathr was confronted with proof that she had called me a liar, she stopped talking to me, and began attacking Nicole Lacey.

Also notice that, although she said she would apologize, she hasn't.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/20/16




Marionology was not around in the first few centuries. What is really striking is that PiousXII places Mary's assumption equal to Jesus and stated she is co-redemptress. --kathr4453 on 6/20/16

1. Give a direct quote of Pius XII putting Mary's Assumption equal to Jesus??????????

You should be ashamed of yourself. Cite your sources. Stop making stuff up.

I keep giving you Scriptures which seems to make your madder than satisfied.

Why don't you do same?

2. The Christians in the 1st few Centuries LOVED MARY.
Declaring Mary Mother of God.

Are you saying you can't love both your husband and your mother in law?

You have serious problems with our King's Mother!
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/20/16


So again there are no eye witnesses to the Assumption of Mary...The fact that there were no eye witnesses has been a problem they have been confronted with throughout RCC church history.--kathr4453 on 6/19/16

Using your logical, you can't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

No witness to His Resurrection either.

So, why do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead if NO ONE SEEN HIM RISE.

At least Elisa saw Elijah being assumed into heaven.

Only eye witness of an Assumption.

Kathr, you are going in circles and keep making mistakes.

You claim no Scripture, but I give you Scripture you claim never existed.

I think your problem is that you are a little rusty with the Bible.

---Nicole_Lacey on 6/19/16


\\The only account of any witnesses are those from a young German girl named Emmerich who said she saw it in a vision. So again there are no eye witnesses to the Assumption of Mary\\

There were other accounts before Katherine Ann Emmerich.

What Pope Gelasius rejected was the DOCUMENT as being apocryphal, NOT the teaching, as it's held by ALL the pre-Reformation Churches--including those that REJECT Immaculate Conception.

kathr, it's better to remain silent and be thought ignorant and misinformed than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/16


Nicole, you twisted what I said.

Those first popes were correct, it it heresy, based on bazaar writings that also included other bazaar writings about things like "and all the apostles were lifted up into the heavens and carried on a cloud and dropped at Mary's door..bla bla bla, and is where these supposed visions came from this young girl where these stories already existed. Marionology was not around in the first few centuries. What is really striking is that PiousXII places Mary's assumption equal to Jesus and stated she is co-redemptress. So this doctrine isn't as innocent as some would have you believe. It will play a part in end times deceiving millions upon millions, as they believe Rev 12 is about Mary.
---kathr4453 on 6/20/16


The only account of any witnesses are those from a young German girl named Emmerich who said she saw it in a vision. So again there are no eye witnesses to the Assumption of Mary. Pious XII made this church dogma, states her soul went to heaven first, and her body later joined her soul. And that her body did not become corrupt BECAUSE of her IC? Just that alone is not how our own resurrection will take place. The NEW Creature IN CHRIST is who is incorruptible. They are saying Mary did not need a savior. So again WHY did she go to the upper room waiting for,the Holy Spirit?

notice how evasive Cluny and Monk are? The fact that there were no eye witnesses has been a problem they have been confronted with throughout RCC church history.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/16




This is interesting:

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have infallible popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another infallible pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine.
---kathr453 on 6/19/16


Kathr, I was correcting your statement claiming no one assumed into Heaven.

I gave you Scripture of your error.

Can't you at least ADMIT your error before moving on to another debate?

But ok, I will answer your next question:

Nicole, no one has reported appearances of Enoch , or appearances of Elijah communicating with anyone...No one has " witnessed" to it, not even scripture " "witnesses " to it. You do know the importance of a WITNESS?---kathr4453 on 6/19/16

Yes, how's Jesus as a Witness for you?

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and ELIJAH, TALKING WITH JESUS.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/19/16


Kathr said, "...you believe she died, and THEN was resurrected with her same body she was buried in....and any known records of Mary after Jesus ascended into Heaven...And too explain why she needed to receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? That is recorded in scripture. And that is the last Mary is even mentioned. ..."

Kathr, If Mary doesn't matter to you, why are you so hot and heavy in defending your opinions against her Assumption?

BTW, I am still waiting for an apology, as I posted an answer to your request for blogs, dates, and postings where you called me a liar.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/19/16


\\ Nicole, no one has reported appearances of Enoch , or appearances of Elijah communicating with anyone.\\

And how would you know, kathr? As a matter of fact, Christians in the Middle East have GREAT devotion to the Prophet Elijah and say they have seen him.

\\There is no record even in writings not in scripture of anyone "witnessing " the assumption of Mary. \\

Again, you expose your ignorance. There are.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/16


Nicole, no one has reported appearances of Enoch , or appearances of Elijah communicating with anyone. But one thing is certain, however one interprets it, both instances are recorded in scripture. Yet there is nothing even close recorded about Mary. And to use Enoch and Elijah's saying if it can happen here, it can happen again, well, it doesn't work that way. There is no record even in writings not in scripture of anyone "witnessing " the assumption of Mary. No one has " witnessed" to it, not even scripture " "witnesses " to it. You do know the importance of a WITNESS?
---kathr4453 on 6/19/16


Nicole, ok, let's again think about this. Most agree here that Mary in fact died. Now some say she didn't, but you can argue that among yourselves. Let's say for the record, you believe she died, and THEN was resurrected with her same body she was buried in. So first tell us the date of her death, where she was buried, and any known records of Mary after Jesus ascended into Heaven. We know she was in the upper room after Jesus ascended waiting for the Holy Spirit. And too explain why she needed to receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? That is recorded in scripture. And that is the last Mary is even mentioned. Mary will be part of the first resurrection. That hasn't happened yet.
---kathr453 on 6/19/16


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Kathr said, (Meaning of Sacrament, "Monk can you refer me to the Blog subject and date posted where I called you a liar. Again you make railing accusations without proof. If you have no proof what does that make you?"6/15/16

Right there, you are implying that I am a liar.

On the blog Meaning of Sacrament, you said, "It's called a TYPO Monk," and then proceeded to tell me that I am full of HATE 6/18/16

Another post in the same blog you said, "Monk, I don't hate anyone who doesn't agree with me. Your continual lying about such things is really getting old here." 6/15/16

I have answered your question. I am waiting for an apology.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/18/16


Monk, I realize people suffering with depression can and do process things people say through an already negative mindset. You tend to accuse not only me but others as well of attacking YOU personally when pointing out concerns with the RCC. This is most unfortunate for you, because you can't seem to separate yourself from the RCC and believe you are one in the same.

Again, when you over exaggerate someone's post showing no proof for your accusation, and continue to create this vicious circle you put yourself in, when no one has called you a LIAR, ( which my definition of a LIAR is someone who is a pathological liar) I do not see you as one. I'm also not responsible how your mind processes.
---kathr4453 on 6/18/16


Samuelbb7 said this:

\\I have nothing but respect for Mary. She should be honored and respected.
\\

This, dumplings, is PRECISELY what Orthodox mean by VENERATING THE THEOTOKOS!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/16


No one else has been assumed,--kathr4453 on 6/17/16

According to Scripture, Enoch and Elijah may have been assumed into heaven before the time of Christ. This is less clear in Enoch's case, since Genesis 5:24 says only that God "took" him, but doesn't say where. Sirach 44:16 and 49:14 make it clear that he was taken up from the earth, and Hebrews 11:5 adds "so that he should not see death."

In Elijah's case, 2 Kings 2:11 states that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." First Maccabees 2:58 adds, "Elijah because of great zeal for the Law was taken up into heaven. " -Catholic Answers
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/18/16


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Kathr said, "...The way your RCC explains it is, that because of her IC, she was privileged with the assumption, and there could have been no assumption without her IC."

What you are calling the IC is a belief widely held in Protestant (and other) circles. That belief is that Mary was born of a virgin as well. That is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. Mary was conceived and born in the same, natural way that everyone, except for Jesus, was born.

Mary was protected from sin by a special grace from God, although she was tempted, like any other girl in 4B.C in Israel.

That has nothing to do with the Assumption of Mary after she died.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/18/16


Kathr said, "Monk can you refer me to the Blog subject and date posted where I called you a liar. Again you make railing accusations without proof. If you have no proof what does that make you?"

Right there, you are calling me a liar, Kathr. However, while I have not found a posting that fits what you are asking for YET, I have a list of several nasty things that you have said to me. Most of these date after 4/30/16
---Monk_Brendan on 6/18/16


Monk, reading through the blogs, it has come to my attention that you are not well, not able to get out, living in Phoenix where the heat is unbearable, and this has brought on somewhat of a depression for you. I want to say I am sorry to hear you are going through a rough time, and I want to keep you in my prayers.

Having suffered depression myself and knowing how truly Aweful it can be, I think you and I should change the subject matter between us, and strive for a more positive relationship. I want to truly apologize to you if I have caused you any sadness. Please get a good night sleep. Joy does come in the morning and my prayer for you is to have that Joy .

I love you Monk....
---kathr4453 on 6/17/16


Monk can you refer me to the Blog subject and date posted where I called you a liar. Again you make railing accusations without proof. If you have no proof what does that make you?

If perhaps I said you lied about me without proof, and failed to post your proof, I will reserve any apology to you for confronting you on your false accusations. I know you will not find any post where I said you were a liar. I don't use that word. If I found you to have lied about something, I would have posted your lie and asked why you lied.
---kathr4453 on 6/17/16


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Monk, I realize these are two different events. The way your RCC explains it is, that because of her IC, she was privileged with the assumption, and there could have been no assumption without her IC. Ok so why do you have a problem with their explanation?

No one else has been assumed, where there have been numerous claims about her appearing here and there, and also talking to humans. Yet scripture teaches we do not talk to the dea, and such things are sorcery.
---kathr4453 on 6/17/16


Kathr said, "...Certainly the Mary who was assumed is NOT OUR precious beloved Mary of Scripture either."

Kathr, Please understand. You are confusing two separate events. The first is the Immaculate Conception, and the second is the Assumption.

The IC (I do not agree with the official definition of Pius IX--Look at the Vatican Website for the official RC definition. Then look up the Conception of Mary as an Orthodox Icon) is about how Mary was specially protected from sin from the moment of her NATURAL conception.

The Assumption is about what happened to Mary's body AFTER she died.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/17/16


Kathr said, "...you really need to stop starting with,...see how YOU set the tone....starting off with HATE."

It is childish of me, and I repent of it.

Now that I've done that, why can't YOU apologize to me for calling me a liar, saying that I am stalking you, and the various attacks you have made against me and the Catholic Churches.

I can understand such foolishness from Trav, Leon, and Jerry. They are immature, and don't know any better, having learned to HATE at their mother's knee. But if you want me to act on a mature level, then you should act at the same level. If you disagree with me, fine, say it like that. However, if you think I am lying, you had better have PROOF.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/17/16


Yes, anything that important, something never before or after would certainly be in scripture. But scripture has only ONE who was sinless, the perfect spotless Lamb of God who's name is Jesus Christ, who scripture says was born of a virgin, that's all. To add to this makes for ANOTHER Mary and Jesus not in scripture. Don't be fooled folks, just because the RCC gives them the same names, doesn't mean they are the same people. Certainly the Mary who was assumed is NOT OUR precious beloved Mary of Scripture either.

We also love Mary of the scriptures. We show love by defending the truth about her, not embellished lies.
---kathr4453 on 6/17/16


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I have nothing but respect for Mary. She should be honored and respected.

I just don't believe she was sinless.

Nor do I have a reason from the Bible to believe so.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/16/16


Cain sinned because he was born from Adam the origin of the sin. The first child to be born with the stain of sin on his soul. Original sin. Adam is the original sinner.

Why do some on CN find it hard to believe Mary is the IC?

Do you believe it is impossible for God?

If you think God can create a person without original sin why not make the person who will be the Mother of His Son? Mary

What's with all the hate and jealousy towards Mary?

Some of you all treat your own mother in law better than Jesus' mother.

Think about it.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/16/16


Monk, you really need to stop starting your posts with, Kathr blathered, Leon slimed, Jerry ranted etc etc. see how YOU set the tone....starting off with HATE.

Secondly on a very RCC website that very thing was stated. So go argue and insult with your own folks first.
---kathr4453 on 6/16/16


Kathr blathered, "IC also includes the doctrine of the assumption of Mary. That because she was pronounced sinless she didn't die. Correct me if I'm wrong."

You are!

Okay, Kathr, you snared me into getting involved in this discussion. Are you happy?

The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the Assumption. They are separate events.

Mary did die. She was taken body and soul into heaven and now lives in the eternal NOW of God
---Monk_Brendan on 6/6/16


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kathr, you really don't understand many things that ARE in scripture, for that matter.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/6/16


\\The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die,\\

That the Virgin Mary suffered physical death, and her soul parted from her body, is in the liturgical formularies of ALL the pre-Reformation Churches.

Lex orandi, lex credendi. Loosely translated, our faith is expressed in our prayers.

In fact, her tomb in Jerusalem is well known.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/6/16


You are correct Cluny, I really don't understand things NOT IN SCRIPTURE somehow being forced into scripture. So if you meant that as a jab....it doesn't work. All we need to know is scripture, not extra babble that so many do, like Calvinism or WOF or whatever Bologna someone wants to feed you.

Joseph, I appreciate your view, however I do believe in original sin. I just can't separate our old Adam from sin and death. Sin is who we are before Christ. And I can't see where death is separated from sin. Jesus died for our sin, aka our old Adam. I believe this is stated in Romans 6-8 Even if one never sinned, they still do not have the righteousness of Christ. This is what the Gospel is about...original sin.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/16


Kathr said, "But this teaching according to the WEB states that it wasn't until the 1800 this became doctrine. Before that, I guess the focus was on Jesus not Mary."

Kathr, there is also information on the web that redheads are evil, that the Vatican is responsible for killing JFK, and other wild theories. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/5/16


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The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

It is because of this unclear statement that even the assumption of Mary doctrine has variations as well some still believing she never died.
BUT those IN CHRIST will have NEW Bodies, not preserved old bodies. The NEW creature will be fitted and fashioned to live in the NEW creation.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/16


"I wonder if Cain also did not believe in original sin, and that is why he refused obedience to God" No kathr, He disobeyed because he was a sinner. Whether he believe that he inherited Adam's sin or not is irrelevant, although according scripture, he did not. As it is written "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 "Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom 5:12 Man is only responsible for his own sin. "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son." Eze 18:20
---joseph on 6/5/16


\\But this teaching according to the WEB states that it wasn't until the 1800 this became doctrine.\\

1845 to be exact.

\\ Before that, I guess the focus was on Jesus not Mary.\\

Oh,it's always been on Jesus, even with the IC. But I don't expect you to be able to grasp that.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/5/16


Cluny, there are as StrongAxe stated, many different variations on the theme. However, I did do more research and found yours as well. Thank you, now I know what the REAL MEANING IS, but still disagree with it. The bottom line in all the variations states Mary was somehow made sinless by God acting upon her soul at the time she was conceived. I do find it interesting that the Calvinists believe themselves to be SOMEWHAT in that same category of having special privilege before they were even born.

But this teaching according to the WEB states that it wasn't until the 1800 this became doctrine. Before that, I guess the focus was on Jesus not Mary.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/16


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I wonder if Cain also did not believe in original sin, and that is why he refused obedience to God, who established a blood sacrifice right from the beginning. There is a difference between SIN and sins. Anything that falls short of the Glory of God is SIN. The human race fell short, bringing death to all men.

IC also includes the doctrine of the assumption of Mary. That because she was pronounced sinless she didn't die. Correct me if I'm wrong.
---kathr453 on 6/5/16


joseph, you're getting close to the Orthodox objections to Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX.

kathr, this is NOT what you said IC meant earlier. But then, you don't seem to have the mind to understand what you read.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/4/16


It seems most of us reject the teaching of the immaculate conception.

For at least similar reasons.

Agape
---Samuel_bb7 on 6/4/16


Actually Cluny your answer is irrelevant. For me the bottom line concerning this subject is that I personally do not believe the doctrine of original sin. Therefore the concept of immaculate conception is meaningless to me. I believe Psa 51:5, the verse most quoted to justified it, is applicable to the mother not the child. Three versions of the Bible state other wise. I believe them to be an attempt to validate a religious doctrine of original sin contrived by man. Adam didn't pass sin down, but rather death as the consequence of sin. Man is not born with a sin nature. He is born with a carnal nature that is prone to sin. He is not born a sinner, he is simply destined to sin due to his innate sense knowledge dependency. See Rom 3:23
---joseph on 6/4/16


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Regardless of what one wants to say the definition of immaculate conception is.....the bottom line of it is teaching Mary was sinless. And in order for Jesus to,be sinless, Mary first had to be sinless. They just can't quite grasp the fact that if Jesus was born of a human that sin would pass to Jesus, therefore Mary had to be made SINLESS first. BUT what is this based on? Let me say it this way SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT 2 THAT WERE SINLESS. Therefore this claim is baseless. Mary was not as sinless as Jesus Christ. If God had the power to pronounce anyone sinless ( humans that is) there would have been no need for Jesus in the first place.
---kathr4453 on 6/4/16


joseph, the meaning of Immaculate Conception (as a Marian doctrine) has already been explained here by Samuelbb7.

And as I also said, there are many reasons we Orthodox do not accept it, but it's not sense in going into these reasons here.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/4/16


"Now do you understand, joseeph?" Yes Cluny, thank you for the education. Now is you can explain as clearly, the meaning of "Immaculate Conception", since every definition that has been placed here is wrong in your mind, my education, concerning this, will be complete.
---joseph on 6/3/16


///"The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary woman God chose to be the mother of the Lord. No doubt Mary was a godly woman (Luke 1:28) But, the Bible gives no reason to believe Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives every reason to believe Christ is the only Person who was sinless" I agree completely Michael E.---joseph on 6/3/16///

Me too guys! Yes, Mary was a "highly favored" (faithful) woman of God who, like us all, was born into sin & in need of a Savior.
---Leon on 6/3/16


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Oh, call on me, Monk Brendan! I know! I know!

It means that physically, the body of the Vigin Mary was formed the same way that my body got formed, and yours, and everyone else's since Adam and Eve.

Now do you understand, joseeph?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/3/16


"Can you figure it out, or do I need to draw pictures and talk like a 2nd grade teacher?" Personally I can not, please do Monk Brendan.
---joseph on 6/3/16


The holy icon of the Conception of Mary, the mother of God shows her parents embracing and kissing, standing in front of their bed. In the foreground is an empty cradle.

Can you figure it out, or do I need to draw pictures and talk like a 2nd grade teacher?
---Monk_Brendan on 6/3/16


\\So the term is applying to Mary's birth correct?\\

Nope. You're incorrect again.

\\ However this is taught by some RCC even today.\\

Not at all. This is not and never has been the teaching of ANYONE'S church, though, as I said, some lying people claim it is.

You you understand ANYTHING I post on these blogs, kathr?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/3/16


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Thank you Strong axe, I understand your position. It has always been my belief that this is the humanity of Jesus, The christ, son of David. Who knowing that God had sworn with an oath unto him [David] that of the fruit of his 'loin' (as literally plucked from his procreative power) 'according to the flesh' (as pertaining to His body), He would raise up 'Christ' (The Anointed One) to sit [physically] on his throne.
The body of Jesus was 'conceived' (to be delivered and brought forth) by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, and 'made' (formed) using the 'seed'(sperm or reproductive cell) of David combined with the 'ovum' (egg or reproductive cell) of Mary. Mat 1:1>Acts 2:30>Rom 1:3>Luk 1:32 Human bodies are only formed in this manner.
---joseph on 6/3/16


"The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary woman God chose to be the mother of the Lord. No doubt Mary was a godly woman (Luke 1:28) But, the Bible gives no reason to believe Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives every reason to believe Christ is the only Person who was sinless" I agree completely Michael E.
---joseph on 6/3/16


kathr4453:

You wrote: So the term is applying to Mary's birth correct? It sure is a lying claim no matter who says it.

This is two totally separate issues:
1) Whether or not the Immaculate Conception is, in fact, true (which is not the subject of this blog), and
2) People inadvertently misinformed about, or deliberately lying about, what the concept of "Immaculate Conception" actually means (whether it's true or not). This is what Chick does (i.e. create a strawman and then demolish it).

Scripture does not support 2 virgin births. However this is taught by some RCC even today.

Can you cite any specific RCC who actually teach that Mary's mother was a virgin?
---StrongAxe on 6/3/16


Protestant controversialists, such as Jack Chick, even make the lying claim that Mary was the result of a virginal conception, too.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/16

So the term is applying to Mary's birth correct? It sure is a lying claim no matter who says it. Scripture does not support 2 virgin births. However this is taught by some RCC even today.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/16


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I meant this line to read "Therefore the term "Immaculate Conception" [can only be] used to describe Mary's impregnation with Jesus."
"Not by Roman Catholics" Yes I know Cluny, I've read that "The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, was the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the womb of her mother, Saint Anne, free from original sin by virtue of the foreseen merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but God acted upon her soul (keeping her "immaculate") at the time of her conception." Is that your belief as well? If so, based on what?
---joseph on 6/2/16


Conception of Christ was no doubt immaculate, but immaculate conception doesn't refer to Jesus. The doctrine of immaculate conception is the rcc referring to Mary. The immaculate conception is the belief that Mary was sinless.
The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary women God chose to be the mother of the Lord. No doubt Mary was a godly woman (Luke 1:28) But, the Bible gives no reason to believe Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives every reason to believe Christ is the only Person who was sinnless (Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:23, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5).
---michael_e on 6/2/16


joseph:

You wrote: Strongaxe, why do you believe Jesus had no human father?

Mary became pregnant while engaged to Joseph, so he was Jesus's presumptive father under Jewish law.

However, she conceived by the Holy Spirit when she had not yet known man, so Joseph was NOT the biological father. No human being was. Since Adam's original sin was passed down from generation to generation through fathers (i.e. Adam sinned, while Eve was merely decieved), since Jesus had no earthly father descended from Adam, he did not inherit Adam's sin.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/16


\\ Therefore the term "Immaculate Conception" is used to describe Mary's impregnation with Jesus. \\

Not by Roman Catholics, or anyone who knows what the term really means.

Protestant controversialists, such as Jack Chick, even make the lying claim that Mary was the result of a virginal conception, too.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/16


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Monk Brendan we are saved by through Grace alone. The problem has developed that some take this to mean no works happen.

Cluny had a discussion close to this. But I didn't have time to join in. But when we are filled with the Holy Spirit we will do works.

read Luke 17:7-10 ...Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
---Samuelbb7 on 6/2/16


What does it mean Cluny? The way I understand it is the way it is defined by webster, as "the act of conceiving, or the state of being conceived that is free from spot or stain, spotlessly clean: free from moral blemish or impurity, pure, undefiled." Some, as I understand it, consider those conceived through human intercourse are innately unclean or defiled. Therefore the term "Immaculate Conception" is used to describe Mary's impregnation with Jesus. Who was conceived by the overshadowing (as the investing of a superimposed preternatural influence) of the Holy Spirit.

Michael you obviously believe this to be incorrect, please share why.

Strongaxe, why do you believe Jesus had no human father?
---joseph on 6/2/16


The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic term that many have heard of, but few are informed about. Wrongly, many think the immaculate conception refers to Jesus' conception.
---michael_e on 6/2/16


Which is why I put up the definition in my post.

It means Mary was born without sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/1/16


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It is necessary to define a theory before condemning it.
---john1944 on 6/1/16


Being saved by faith "ALONE" is a Protestant old wives tale foisted on people to stop them from believing in the whole Bible.
---Monk_Brendan on 6/1/16


I find the Immaculate Conception illogical.

Through Adam, ALL humans (including Mary) inherit Original Sin - EXCEPT Jesus, because he had no human father.

If one says Jesus could only be sinless if his mother was, one MUST apply the same reasoning to Mary, her mother, and so on, all the way back to Eve - and arrive at a contradiction.

On the the other hand, one says "God can declare anyone sinless that he wants", then there would be no need for a convoluted salvation scenario (involving Jesus being born, and then dying on the cross), since God could just declare any and all of us sinless with a wave of his hand.
---StrongAxe on 6/1/16


The IC, like the bogus tradition of Peter being crucified upside down, is a RCC old wives tale. The IC doctrine is false & isn't found anywhere in Scripture. Who cares or even should care Cluny what the term means if it's not true? It's an exercise in futility.
---Leon on 6/1/16


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Wikipedia:Original sin, also called ancestral sin,[1] is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.[2] This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.

The RCC teach total depravity.

Those who disagree with this don't believe that immaculate conception is necessary.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/31/16


Trav ranted, "There are no Catholic-phobes here. ...$ales/apo$tle$ are $elling. You and your adopted monk have not verified anything scriptural to persuade anyone..."

Trav, you are one of the most anti-Catholics on this blog!

Cluny did not adopt me. We are friends, but that is it!

And I am not $elling anything.

As far as Sripture, it is useless to talk to you about that, because when I do give you Scripture, you reject it!

BTW, where is Joe in the Bible? There is a Book called Joel, but you didn't post that, sneer
---Monk_Brendan on 5/31/16


I absolutely refuse to discuss Marian doctrine on a blog where some people don't believe that Jesus is God!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/31/16


Nicole, I won't get into the Orthodox doctrine here, as not one in a dozen could follow it.

And many of the rest would simply dismiss it as psychobabble or bumpf.

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 5/31/16


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Cluny, I am curious. If you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception how do you explain Jesus not having Original Sin since both Anna and Joachim had Original sin?
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/31/16


But you'd be surprised how many Catholicophobes think ...
---Cluny on 5/30/16

You'd probably be surprised yourself. I doubt if you know over two.
There are no Catholic-phobes here. Ha, no one is afraid of ortho's or them, everyone just rejects everything you two $ales/apo$tle$ are $elling. You and your adopted monk have not verified anything scriptural to persuade anyone, of anything, except to avoid your cults. Yet you do ironically make opportunity's , for the rest of us to post scriptures. Your successful more than you'll ever know.
Joe_2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, that I am the LORD your God, none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
---Trav on 5/31/16


\\I do not believe the Orthodox Church teaches this.
---john1944 on 5/30/16\\

No, we do not.

Orthodoxy has several objections to this doctrine, especially in the form dogmatized by Pius IX.

But you'd be surprised how many Catholicophobes think it means that the Virgin was herself the result of a virginal conception by her mother.

Christ is risen
---Cluny on 5/30/16


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