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Is The Universe Expanding

Is the universe expanding or not?

Moderator - It would seem to make sense because everything starting at one point both from a Biblical or pagan belief system and then expanded.

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 ---Leon on 7/3/16
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The theory that the universe is expanding is based solely on the assumption that the stellar red-shifted spectra are caused by Doppler shifting rather than gravitational shifting. Another result is that the stars seem to be accelerating, which implies an additional force and hence the preposterous concept of dark energy.

So, when one starts with faulty assumptions such as a Big Bang and Doppler-only red-shifting, one can arrive at some strange conclusions.


---Jerry6593 on 8/7/16


///...Relativistically, all locations see themselves as the center.---StrongAxe on 8/1/16///

This assertion is about as scientific as Astrology. I think you meant "relatively" rather than "relativistically" - a term which implies near light speed observational effects.

Over 20 years ago, the US (the country just south of your homeland) sent the COBE (Cosmic Background Experiment) into space to map the universe's residual background in order to find the hot spot at the point of the Bib Bang. The result - there is no hot spot, it's uniform everywhere. Other experiments showed structural organization of galaxies throughout the volume of the universe, and not a uniform scatter or a spherical shell.
---jerry6593 on 8/6/16


///...Relativistically, all locations see themselves as the center.---StrongAxe on 8/1/16///

"Axe: Interesting. If that's true, it explains why some people seem to think of Earth as being the center of the universe & causation of a universal Big Bang when Earth was created.
---Leon on 8/1/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Do you contend that the universe is shaped like the outer shell of a sphere?

The balloon analogy is just that - an analogy. It does not claim that the universe is, in fact, the surface of an expanding hypersphere, whose center is in another dimension. Rather, it illustrates one way in which it is possible for a system to be expanding, and for every location in that system to perceive itself as being the center of expansion, without there actually being any such single center of expansion at all.

If everything is equidistant from earth, then that IS geocentrism.

No, for the very reason given above. Relativistically, all locations see themselves as the center.
---StrongAxe on 8/1/16


Cluny: No, I'm the one against geocentrism. All of the red-shifted star distance calculations Axey has mentioned are derived from the ever-changing Hubble "Constant". Using this method, the most distant galaxies are the same distance no matter the direction in the sky. If everything is equidistant from earth, then that IS geocentrism.



Axey: I understand your balloon analogy, but your conclusion from it is non sequitur. Do you contend that the universe is shaped like the outer shell of a sphere? The universe maps I've seen don't concur with that theory.


---Jerry6593 on 7/15/16




Jerry6593:

You wrote: Axe & Cluny: Are you guys seriously pushing geocentrism?

Where on earth (or, to be non-geocentric, in the universe) did you get that idea? Certainly not from anything I wrote.

If we perceive that stars are receding at the same rate in all directions, then we must be at the center of the universe.

Not so. If you had only paid attention to my balloon analogy (rather than ridiculing it) that would be apparent. EVERY point on the expanding balloon sees every other point receding, yet none of them is at the center of the balloon. This exactly correlates to the points you made - what I said agrees with you, rather than contradicting you.
---StrongAxe on 7/14/16


\\Axe & Cluny: Are you guys seriously pushing geocentrism?\\

I'm not doing so, and I don't believe Strongaxe is, either.

\\ If we perceive that stars are receding at the same rate in all directions, then we must be at the center of the universe.\\

But you sound like YOU are pushing geocentrism.

If there are beings capable of spiritual and moral life similar to ourselves on other planets (which has yet to be proven), I believe that God would be as deeply, passionately, and personally interested in all of them as He is in us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/14/16


Axe & Cluny: Are you guys seriously pushing geocentrism? If we perceive that stars are receding at the same rate in all directions, then we must be at the center of the universe. Years ago, NASA sent the COBE into space to determine the hot spot location of the residual microwave background radiation, and thus the center of the BB. To their great surprise, they couldn't find one - it was uniform everywhere.

Further, mapping studies of the known universe were expected to show a uniform distribution of matter as predicted by the BB. Result - not uniform at all, very structured. Would either of you geniuses care to explain these findings?


---Jerry6593 on 7/14/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Axey: Your grasp of science is on a par with your grasp of Holy Scripture

Once again, an ad hominem attack - which is exactly how children react when they disagree with a point that is made, but don't have a rational response. Adults either accept the point given, or provide a logical refutation of it, neither of which you have done.
---StrongAxe on 7/13/16


\\Axey: Your grasp of science is on a par with your grasp of Holy Scripture - limited at best.
\\

Just like you, Jeery.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/13/16




Axey: Your grasp of science is on a par with your grasp of Holy Scripture - limited at best.


---Jerry6593 on 7/13/16


Jerry6593:

Not true. If you draw dots on a balloon, then inflate it, ALL dots recede from all others, regardless of which you take as the center.

In Newtonian mechanics, speeds can exceed c. In relativity, they undergo the Lorentz transformation and are below c.

Gravitational red shift would require that either the earth is at the center of a huge gravitational well (improbable), or a mountain surrounded by infinitely deep gravitational wells in all directions (impossible).
---StrongAxe on 7/11/16


Cluny: The Big Bang Theory is the source of many fictitious concepts (as was phlogiston). I think of them as band-aids on a broken theory, a grasping at straws to shore up silly concept.

Ignoring the ridiculous notion that everything proceeded from nothing at an infinitely small point, the equations of the BB require much more matter than is currently in the universe, half of which should be anti-matter, and it should be much more evenly distributed than it is. But, neither the required anti-matter or dark matter can be found (nor can dark energy even be conceived). Then there is the requirement for multiple universes - a problem for believers in God. Are there also multiple Gods?


---Jerry6593 on 7/11/16


\\This conclusion results in the fictitious concepts of "dark matter" and "dark energy". \\

I will admit that this sounds to me like the search for phlogiston (is there such a thing as dark anti-matter?), but I don't know enough physics to object to it.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 7/10/16


Although StrongAxe did a good job of explaining the Doppler effect, and its resulting red shift, it is not the only explanation, and it has some problems.

1) The shifts are roughly the same in all directions, which implies geocentrism.

2) Although this theory (through the Hubble 'constant') results in such conclusions as the expanding and accelerating universe with constant density. This conclusion results in the fictitious concepts of "dark matter" and "dark energy".

3) The Hubble constant gives the speed of some quasars as 8 times the speed of light.

A better explanation of stellar Doppler shift is the confirmed phenomenon predicted by Einstein of gravitational red shift.


---Jerry6593 on 7/9/16


/When elements are hot, they emit light, and each emits a specific frequency. We tell from the light frequencies from sun and stars what elements glow inside them. Light from distant galaxies has similar but lower frequencies, showing they are moving away from us, and the farther away they are, the faster they move. This suggests that the very fabric of the universe is expanding like balloon being inflated.\-StrongAxe on 7/4/16
This is very poor science involving circular reasoning.
If we can tell by the frequency what elements are inside them and other stars have a lower frequency, wouldn't that suggest different elements rather than a Doppler shift?
It requires a base reading. If the star is moving away, where is the base reading?
---micha9344 on 7/9/16


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I agree 'Axe & believe God is the one who is causing (making) the universe to constantly expand.
---Leon on 7/4/16


When objects are moving apart, waves moving from one to the other lower in frequency. This is called a Doppler shift, and can be heard when a train or car passes you - the pitch of the sound drops after it passes. The same happens with light (and can be verified experimentally).

When elements are hot, they emit light, and each emits a specific frequency. We tell from the light frequencies from sun and stars what elements glow inside them. Light from distant galaxies has similar but lower frequencies, showing they are moving away from us, and the farther away they are, the faster they move. This suggests that the very fabric of the universe is expanding like balloon being inflated.
---StrongAxe on 7/4/16


///Astrophysicists say it is.

How would I know whether they are right? I neither enough math or physics to check them out.

I do know it was Fr. Georges Lemaitre who first did the math to prove what was at first ridiculed as the Big Bang hypothesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/3/16///

Cluny: I believe we & the illustrious astrophysicists would do well to trust what the word of God (Bible) says in the matter. Can't nobody sum creation up like God, The Creator!
---Leon on 7/4/16


Astrophysicists say it is.

How would I know whether they are right? I neither enough math or physics to check them out.

I do know it was Fr. Georges Lemaitre who first did the math to prove what was at first ridiculed as the Big Bang hypothesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/3/16


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I believe it is & has always been expanding, due to Creator God's endless process of creating. But some scientist say the opposite. I believe the Bible more than adequately speaks to the matter.
---Leon on 7/3/16


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