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Is Baptism Public

Anciently, Baptism was a semi-private affair, with only the Bishop or Presbyter, the Baptizand, Sponsor, and a Deconess to be chaperone for women.

The were also done in the nude, as ancient pictures show.

Where do Protestants get the idea baptism is a public confession of faith in Christ?

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 ---Cluny on 7/13/16
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Jerry6593:

Jesus didn't teach much really new or revolutionary, per se - he mostly just made people remember what had been taught by the prophets before, unburned by all the encrustations of centuries of man-made traditions. This was Judaism revitalized - just as what John the Baptist was teaching. He even said that he was not sent to all the nations, but only the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It wasn't until after Jesus's resurrection that the Apostles began teaching about his atoning sacrifice, which is the core of Christian theology. Jesus gave them hints about this beforehand, but it was not part of his general teachings to the masses.
---StrongAxe on 9/23/16


Axey: "Christianity is about us being forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice, which was not even applicable until after Jesus's death and resurrection."

Good sir, (I thought I'd return the compliment.) you seem to know little of the God you claim to serve. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the New - Jesus. He even said so Himself. The complex Sanctuary service of the OT, with its forgiveness through the atoning sacrifice of blood, was a type (through faith) of the future sacrifice on the cross. Since the time of Adam (long before Jews), God's people have understood the significance of the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"- Rev 13:8.


---Jerry6593 on 9/23/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: John the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) did indeed perform Christian Baptism, as his was sanctioned by Christ.

Jesus did not preach Christianity. He preached Judaism. John the Baptist's baptism was a Jewish rededication, not a Christian one. Christianity is about us being forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice, which was not even applicable until after Jesus's death and resurrection. Remember, when the apostles encountered several believers who had received John's baptism, they did not consider that sufficient, and they baptized them again, this time using a Christian baptism.
---StrongAxe on 9/21/16


cluny: "jerry, the baptisms performed by St. John the Forerunner were NOT Christian baptisms."

Who is this John the Forerunner? Some early Catholic track star?

John the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) did indeed perform Christian Baptism, as his was sanctioned by Christ. He also famously said:

"Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand." and "One comes after me whose shoes I am unworthy to untie."

Didn't you know that these statements referred to Christ? Without the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, baptism has no meaning.



---Jerry6593 on 9/16/16


jerry, the baptisms performed by St. John the Forerunner were NOT Christian baptisms.
---Cluny on 9/11/16




cluny: The most ancient record of baptism in the Bible was that of John the Baptist. His baptisms (including that of Christ) were indeed very public, as:

Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Also, only baptism by immersion adequately symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

One would think that Orthodoxy would know these things.



---Jerry6593 on 9/11/16


I still haven't seen a crispy critter Christian. Jesus said he will baptize in spirit and fire. Baptism means to immerse. After a two-year hiatus from this site, I see we all still are immersed in daily bull.... Lol.
---aka on 9/10/16


Don't confuse the method with the message. The method has changed from year to year and from culture to culture, but the message does not change. Baptism is a testimony as what Christ has done and a promise that He will come again.
---wivv on 9/5/16


boC is body of Christ
---michael_e on 8/17/16


Michael E, what does BoC mean?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/15/16




I Cor 12:12,13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
The Holy Spirit doesn't baptize with water. Yet nearly every Christian group will not accept a person for membership without water baptism.
Most congregations have unbelievers who have been baptized by some form of baptism. They're baptized and members, but not necessarily members of the BoC. There will be no unbelievers in the BoC because that's the work of the Holy Spirit, not men
---michael_e on 8/15/16


Nicole, the Eastern Churches, including Eastern Catholic Churches, normally baptize infants by triple immersion. So are adult converts.

Note the word "normally."

Common sense will tell you that there are emergencies when immersion is impractical or even impossible.

In these cases, you get as close to immersion as you can, and trust God to make up the difference.

I could tell you some moving stories about extraordinary baptisms, but too many words would be needed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/16


The RCC used to do immersion mainly of Adults. But stopped.---Samuelbb7

Not the RCC. Still an option which mostly choose pouring instead of immersion.

I am curious. Why is immersion so important to you? I understand the symbolic meaning, but why the detail?

Truly I am not trying to be smart.

Some believe immersion is so important that if not done they believe Baptism isn't valid.

But the same ones believe when Catholics follow Jesus's Instructions and Words in John 6 with the Eucharist we (Catholics) are wrong. Believing it is only symbolic and no need to use wine. Grape juice is okay. eventhough EVERYONE knows Jesus did NOT use grape juice at Passover.

Jews today still use WINE during their Passover.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/10/16


I can agree with that Nicole.

Our GOD is love.

But we probably disagree on some other points. We uphold believers baptism. We also believe that Immersion shows being buried. The RCC used to do immersion mainly of Adults. But stopped.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/10/16


I read of a young man who came to Jesus. But died in the hospital unable to be baptized.
Will you declare that these men are lost?---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/16

No, God is Merciful.

The RCC calls it the 'Desire of Baptism'

If one dies desires baptism, but were unable to be baptized to no fault of their own are still Saved.

Even if the desire occurs one minute before death.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/9/16


micha, Jesus did NOT give the commandment to be baptized until His Ascension. Therefore the Good Thief (traditionally named Dismas) is not an argument against the Savior's requiring baptism.
---Cluny on 8/9/16


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I believe we are supposed to be baptized. If a person refuses to be baptized then they are showing they are not following GOD.

Recently I read the story of a man in a small village in China. He had to come to know Jesus. But he was the only Christian in the whole town. He asked the radio station if it was okay that me had filled his bath tub and baptized himself. Since no one else could do it.

I read of a young man who came to Jesus. But died in the hospital unable to be baptized.

Will you declare that these men are lost?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/16


Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
-No baptism there.---micha9344 on 8/8/16

No confession either.

And your point?

After Jesus death and Resurrection, He still told His disciples to Baptized all nations. Matthew 28

Are you saying the disciples don't have to obey Jesus because Jesus didn't baptize the man dying on a cross Himself?

Jesus and the other man dying on their crosses ISN'T an excuse for Jesus not baptizing him?

Also, Jesus didn't baptizes ANYONE. He told his disciples to baptizes ALL nations (includes you and I) in His Father's, Holy Spirit's and His names.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/9/16


Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
-No baptism there.
---micha9344 on 8/8/16


Or a person can give their heart to Jesus just before they die. They are still saved.--Samuelbb7 on 8/7/16

How do you know that?

You and Rita are giving your opinion not Biblical fact.

Jesus spoke to Paul. Told him where to go. No confession asked of him. NONE. Baptism was required.

The eunuch knew he needed baptism for Salvation.

In ACTS, the people ASKED Peter what should they do to be Saved.
Peter said they needed to be BAPTIZED.

You all are making stuff up.

Baptism is instructed over and over in the NT esp ACTS.

Jesus told the Disciples to Baptized all NATIONS.

Not "teach all Nations the 'Sinner's Prayer'."

Don't be a Cafeteria Biblical Protestant.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/8/16


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Good points Michael and Rita.

There has been many a wet sinner in a church.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/8/16


When believers are baptized BY THE SPIRIT into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13), we are baptized into the death of Christ.
Without this baptism into the Lords death, we are yet in our sins. This baptism is necessary for salvation, water baptism is not. Anyone can follow the Lord in his water baptism which doesn't accomplish anything for us regarding salvation. If we are to follow the Lord, we must follow the Lord in his second baptism, as the Spirit baptizes us into Christs death to be saved by Gods grace.
one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5).
The baptism of Christ unto death is what matters for us in this dispensation of Gods grace, not his baptism into water.
---michael_e on 8/7/16


Water might be required for baptism but is not required for salvation. A person should be saved before requesting baptism. Being saved is what will take us to the Lord after death. Many who are baptised are not saved and, no matter what else happens, unless a person is saved they will not spend eternity with the Lord.
---Rita_H on 8/7/16


Well Nicole you are right. We are to be baptized.

But if on the way to be baptized a person dies they are still saved.

Or a person can give their heart to Jesus just before they die. They are still saved.

True all are to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. That does not do away with the water Baptism.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 8/7/16


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Baptism doesn't require water, there are many examples in the Bible, and the one baptism you need does not require a single drop.---michael_e on 8/4/16

I believe Phillip a direct Disciple of Jesus disagrees with you.

ACTS 8:36-39
As they traveled along the road they came to some WATER, and the eunuch said, "look, there is WATER. What is to prevent my being BAPTIZED?"....And Philip and the eunuch both went down into the WATER, and he BAPTIZED him. When they came out of the WATER, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away,

Question: Why did the Spirit WAIT until water was seen and USED for baptism?

The Spirit of God seems to disagree with you as well.

The Bible states WATER is needed for baptism.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/6/16


Is baptism in water required for salvation?
No, absolutely not
Paul speaking to the boC says
Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,: Not of works
Rom 3:22 says righteousness is given to, "all them that believe", not to all who believe and are baptized in water.
Rom 1:16 says the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ...", no mention of water.
Rom 3:26 says God is "... the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." No water
Water baptism was a requisite for Israel as Peter writes in 1Pet 3:21.
---michael_e on 8/5/16


\\There's only one baptism Paul says is necessary in the church, and it doesn't include water or a priest to perform it.\\

Yes, it does.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/5/16


Baptism into Christ is identification with Christ. We become crucified with Christ without ever touching water (Gal 2:20).
Baptism with water never symbolized death, but cleansing, as in the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). In the present dispensation of grace, our sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ through his death.

There's only one baptism Paul says is necessary in the church, and it doesn't include water or a priest to perform it. It is performed by the operation of God when we believe the gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ (Eph 4:5 Col 2:12)
Baptism doesn't require water, there are many examples in the Bible, and the one baptism you need does not require a single drop.
---michael_e on 8/4/16


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michael_e:

You wrote: If you cannot understand Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, then you will naturally conclude that we are somehow related to Israel and that we are to follow the preaching and teaching of John the Baptist and Jesus while he walked the earth.

In other words, you believe that REAL Christians should NOT follow the teachings of Jesus. If that is the case, why are we called Christians and not Paulians?
---StrongAxe on 8/1/16


//Where do Protestants get the idea baptism is a public confession of faith in Christ?//
A very good question, the logical answer is ignorance.
Should you be water baptized?
Only if you are ignorant of the revelation of the mystery.
Churches are divided into different camps regarding water baptism. Unfortunately, they are ignorant of the revelation of the mystery given to Paul.
If you cannot understand Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, then you will naturally conclude that we are somehow related to Israel and that we are to follow the preaching and teaching of John the Baptist and Jesus while he walked the earth.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
---michael_e on 8/1/16


michael_e:

You wrote: Today our baptism requires no effort of our own, but is performed by the operation the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ after we believe. This immersion into Christ identifies us with Christ's death and resurrection.

Even though there is baptism in water, and also baptism in the Holy Spirit, this blog is necessarily about the former, because it is about a question of policy. We have control over when, where, and how we get baptized in water, but not so over the baptism in the Holy Spirit - there, the time, place, and method are entirely up to God alone.
---StrongAxe on 8/1/16


The idea of Public Baptisms came from John the Baptist.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/22/16


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When people hear baptism they think "water". However, water baptism is just one baptism mentioned in the Bible. The general meaning of baptism, is immerse, initiate, or induct. The function is identification with the object of the baptism.
In this dispensation, Paul, says: "... One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM,
Paul isn't ignorant of more than one baptism in Gods history, but he says one baptism required today for salvation. He explains this in 1 Cor 12:13, Col 2:11-12, and Titus 3:4-6.
Today our baptism requires no effort of our own, but is performed by the operation the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ after we believe. This immersion into Christ identifies us with Christ's death and resurrection.
---michael_e on 7/22/16


\\As the Ethiopian eunuch said to the Deacon Philip, "See, here is dry . . . Cluny on 7/15/16

Act 8:36 . . . going down the road, they came upon some water. And the eunuch said, "Behold, here is water . . .

Cluny would have the unlearned seekers believe an untruth.

Scripture said "here is water"\\

aservant, I was using irony on michael e.

I'm sorry you don't have the mind to grasp that.

Humble yourself before the Throne of Grace and ask first for normal intelligence.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/21/16


. . . did you mean to agree with Cluny?
---Monk_Brendan on 7/18/16


Oh, I did NOT agree with him. Rather, I intended to show who He really is.


As the Ethiopian eunuch said to the Deacon Philip, "See, here is dry . . . Cluny on 7/15/16

Act 8:36 . . . going down the road, they came upon some water. And the eunuch said, "Behold, here is water . . .

Cluny would have the unlearned seekers believe an untruth.

Scripture said "here is water".

Dry baptism and water baptism are not in agreement. Once again, Cluny, has no idea what he is talking about. He is a blind guide.
---aservant on 7/21/16


There's nothing public about baptism.
When we believe Christ was the blood propitiation for our sins, we are baptized into the Lord himself.(1 Cor 12:13)
Our baptism into Christ crucifies our flesh and places us into his death. Likewise we will take part in his resurrection.(Rom 6:3-4)
As John the Baptist came baptizing with water in obeying God, we must obey instructions from God for this dispensation.
The gospel of a kingdom and remission of sins was tied to water baptism. .
It was first known by Paul that water baptism was not required and was separate from the true forgiveness of sins which is through Christs blood (Eph 1:7).
---michael_e on 7/18/16


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Someone said, "It's dry and performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you. It's not water baptism of any kind."

Cluny replied, "As the Ethiopian eunuch said to the Deacon Philip, "See, here is dry. What keeps me from being baptized?"

To which A Servant put in, "Act 8:36 Now as they were going down the road, they came upon some water. And the eunuch said, "Behold, here is water: what prevents me from being baptized?"

A Servant, did you mean to agree with Cluny?
---Monk_Brendan on 7/18/16


What evidence, if any, do you have . . . ---StrongAxe on 7/16/16

Can't wait for Cluny to produce a title, chapter, page ref to authenticate his expertise.
---aservant on 7/17/16


As the Ethiopian eunuch said to the Deacon Philip, "See, here is dry. What keeps me from being baptized?" ---Cluny on 7/15/16

Act 8:36 Now as they were going down the road, they came upon some water. And the eunuch said, "Behold, here is water: what prevents me from being baptized?"
---aservant on 7/17/16


Cluny:

You wrote: I just thought that since the mikvaouth were segregated by sex, and people entered them naked, it was probably women who baptized other women.

What evidence, if any, do you have to believe New Testament baptisms were actually done in private, or naked? John's baptism was probably closer to the Jewish mikvah than Christian baptism was, yet it was done in public in a river, with participants likely clothed, and probably the Ethiopian eunuch's was as well (his driver was likely also present). It would have been challenging, but quite possible to baptize 3000 people in one day in a river en masse. It would have been virtually impossible to do them one at a time privately in one day, given only 20 seconds each.
---StrongAxe on 7/16/16


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\\Were they all baptized that day and added to the church?
Should Orthodoxy contradict the Bible?
---micha9344 on 7/15/16\\

Well, they were certainly added the day they were baptized, weren't they?

Thank you for reminding me of the exact verse.

I was merely asking a question to issues that Strongaxe raised, not speaking for Orthodoxy, any more than you speak for Protestantism, micha.

I just thought that since the mikvaouth were segregated by sex, and people entered them naked, it was probably women who baptized other women.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/16/16


I now see why you don't explain how Orthodoxy "rightly divide", they don't
We are not under Law.
The Ethiopian eunuch was a law keeping proselyte.
Cornelius, was a law keeping gentile
Why did Paul baptize the Corinthians? The most plausible explanation is it was done in ignorance which was subsequently remedied by further revelation and instructions of Jesus Christ about the clarity of his gospel.
What we can know now reading back through Pauls experience with the Corinthians that as Paul was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel, and no one baptized for him, so we are sent as followers of Paul.
(1 Cor 11:1)
---michael_e on 7/16/16


/And Acts 2 doesn't say the baptism were spread out over several days or all took place on the same day. Either is possible.\-Cluny on 7/15/16
Acts 2:41(NASB) So then, those who had received his word were baptized, and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
If that doesn't say it, it definitely implies it.
But doesn't Orthodoxy believe that one cannot be added to the church until one is baptized?
So which shall it be:
Were they added to the church without baptism that day?
or
Were they all baptized that day and added to the church?
Should Orthodoxy contradict the Bible?
---micha9344 on 7/15/16


\\"It's dry and performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you. It's not water baptism of any kind." \\

As the Ethiopian eunuch said to the Deacon Philip, "See, here is dry. What keeps me from being baptized?"

When Cornelius and his household believed, St. Peter said, "Praise God! They've got the Spirit. Now our work here is finished and we can go on to the next town."

One question: How did St. Paul administer Holy Spirit baptism to Stephanas and his family?

Please explain these passages, michael e.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/15/16


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\\Let us assume this was all done in one 16-hour day - 960 minutes. With 3000 people being baptized, so if they were baptized one at a time, that's less than 20 seconds per baptism. \\

I don't know how many mikvaouth there were in the Temple area or Jerusalem generally.

And Acts 2 doesn't say the baptism were spread out over several days or all took place on the same day. Either is possible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/15/16


Cluny:

You wrote: I've already dealt with this issue. See below.

Not with the logistics. Let us assume this was all done in one 16-hour day - 960 minutes. With 3000 people being baptized, so if they were baptized one at a time, that's less than 20 seconds per baptism. That would have to be some very efficient process! On the other hand, if they baptized multiple people at once, each in a separate room, how many such rooms would they have reasonably needed, and where could they get such facilities on such short notice? Since the mikveh was primarily done for Jewish conversion, having 3000 people convert on the same day would have been unprecedented, so it's unlikely the Temple would have had the facilities to accomodate that.
---StrongAxe on 7/14/16


No one sees a soul saving baptism. It doesn't require water at all.
While many argue over the merits, mode, and method of water baptism, the one baptism required is the Holy Spirit placing you into Christ requiring no water and is largely neglected.
It is this one baptism of every believer into Christ that is responsible for our identity in Christ, our resurrection, our new ministry, our communion, and our inheritance with the Lord.
---michael_e on 7/14/16


\\Cluny, are you under the impression that the Pharisees let 3k+ followers of the Way come into the temple and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
\\

Do you really think they were aware of it?

Please give historical documentation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/14/16


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Michael E. said, "It's dry and performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you. It's not water baptism of any kind."

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a totally other event. While it may happen at Baptism, there is usually some delay. Maybe only a few seconds, but a delay.

At St. John of the Desert (my Church home), Baptism is immediately followed with Chrismation, which is an anointing, and prayers asking for the Holy Spirit to come down and fill this child (or whoever)

However, Baptism--the Rite of Christian Initiation is always (in our community) done by as close to triple immersion in water.
---Monk_Brendan on 7/14/16


Cluny, are you under the impression that the Pharisees let 3k+ followers of the Way come into the temple and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
Interesting concept, but very doubtful historically.
Maybe some documentation supporting this claim?
I would think that the lame man could have been healed then, since he was daily at the temple,
Acts 3:1,2 seems to put a damper on 3k souls at the temple previously.
---micha9344 on 7/14/16


\\E.g. when John was baptizing in the Jordan, there was no opportunity for privacy there.
\\

This was NOT Christian Baptism, however. That's what I'm talking about.

\\ Also, if Acts 2:41 involved several thousand one-on-one private baptisms in one day, the logistics would be mind-boggling, \\

I've already dealt with this issue. See below.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/14/16


Cluny:

You asked: Where do Protestants get the idea baptism is a public confession of faith in Christ?

Maybe from the bible? There is no specific mention that any of them were private, but there is plenty of evidence that many of them must have been public. E.g. when John was baptizing in the Jordan, there was no opportunity for privacy there.

Also, if Acts 2:41 involved several thousand one-on-one private baptisms in one day, the logistics would be mind-boggling, You've heard of the voting fiasco in the Arizona primary with insufficient voting booths? Imagine how bad that would be with a single booth - and I can't imagine baptism is faster than voting.
---StrongAxe on 7/13/16


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\\The Ethopian Eunich was quick to be baptized on believing the word he was told. Whole households were also baptized. So it goes both ways. In the New Testament some are baptized surrounded by others\\

If you read the accounts in Acts, it's clear that ONLY the Baptizands were present, mike.

**Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
-That doesn't sound private.**

This wasn't Christian Baptism, either.

**Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word... three thousand souls.
-3k souls privately baptized?**

In the Mikvaouth of the Temple, yes, they WERE private..

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/13/16


The Ethopian Eunich was quick to be baptized on believing the word he was told. Whole households were also baptized. So it goes both ways. In the New Testament some are baptized surrounded by others and other times there aren't any around.
---mike4879 on 7/13/16


Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
-That doesn't sound private.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
-3k souls privately baptized?
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
-No other people watching?
-Maybe the Bishop, Presbyter, Baptizand, Sponsor, and Deconess might want to try it the Bible's way?
---micha9344 on 7/13/16


Why is there such a hullabaloo over baptisms?
If Paul says there is only one then it must be the one baptism Paul teaches. It's found in 1 Cor 12:13 and Rom 6:3.
It's dry and performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the baptism that saves you. It's not water baptism of any kind.
If you can see this then you have succeeded at making the leap of scriptural understanding that the information Jesus gave to Paul supersedes the information found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
If you do not see this then you are stuck trying to reconcile the multiple baptisms taught in the Lords earthly ministry with the single baptism in Eph 4:5.
---michael_e on 7/13/16


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Frankly, Cluny, it is the Protestant ethic, where everyone is supposed to be witnessing every waking moment of every day, and trying to get another notch on their Bible.

Making disciples for Jesus is a lot more work than hounding them down to the altar. It requires weeks, months, years, even of hard work, and we know how Protestants hate works.
---Monk_Brendan on 7/13/16


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